rtmilburn
Well-known member
Sounds like, to me, the tamoxifen was faked for letro. Whichbis weird as tamoxifen is not expensive to make. But there is no other real answer for such low e2 with a serm and dhea compounds.
Clomid during cycle
- Thread starter RickyBlobby
- Start date
rtmilburn
Well-known member
This is what i thought too.
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Well hes using 4dhea which converts to test. So thats not surprising. What is suprising is that it is that high from 4dhea, and what seems to be a faked serm
Jinsun
Well-known member
Pinning test doesn't shutdown in 10 days time. Do you think that 4ad shuts down quicker? Also there is 1-test...
Pinned 100mg prop 2h ago, hope some of it gets converted to e2 asap lol. Got dbol at hand, maybe should have taken it instead of prop coupled with cyp, as dbol has an even shorter half life then prop
Hyde
Legend
Pinning test doesn't shutdown in 10 days time. Do you think that 4ad shuts down quicker? Also there is 1-test...
Pinned 100mg prop 2h ago, hope some of it gets converted to e2 asap lol. Got dbol at hand, maybe should have taken it instead of prop coupled with cyp, as dbol has an even shorter half life then prop
10 days of consistent administration of almost any hormone should have your body backing down production in most scenarios.
1-dhea is harsher than 4-dhea certainly
MrKleen73
Legend
Pinning test would have done exactly the same thing. You start suppression almost immediately once the steroid is in your blood. Your negative feedback loop tells the pituitary it doesn't need more testosterone as soon as you have a higher than normal concentration of testosterone in your system. So it stops making it. I have seen more than a couple people who did TT 2 weeks into an injection based cycle and were shocked they were pretty much shut down already. This is the same reason why they tell you to start our HCG the first week of a cycle if the goal it to keep the testes producing a little.Pinning test doesn't shutdown in 10 days time. Do you think that 4ad shuts down quicker? Also there is 1-test...
Pinned 100mg prop 2h ago, hope some of it gets converted to e2 asap lol. Got dbol at hand, maybe should have taken it instead of prop coupled with cyp, as dbol has an even shorter half life then prop
Agreed!
Jinsun
Well-known member
Suppress sure but not shutdown... I mean isn't test like suppose to shutdown in 4 - 5 weeks time? That's why short test cycles of 4 to 6 weeks are easier to recover from?
Hyde
Legend
Lol sorry man but that’s not the case. Suppression and shutdown are interchangeable terms.
Short test cycles are easier to recover from because test is a natural hormone and duration of suppression is mild (and guys doing 4-6 weeks generally are also dosing moderately, under 1g).
Compound & duration are the most specific factors in how hard a cycle is to recover from individually, then dosage, in my experience.
Jinsun
Well-known member
Ok tnx
Let me just rephrase though what I meant. You get 100% suppressed in 4 weeks time and less then that in the first weeks. So I tried to say that suppression is gradual and it gets to 100% in about a 4 weeks time. Depends on the person and amount of test off course. But in most cases in 10 days there wouldn't be 100% suppression. = This is how I understood it.
Hyde
Legend
Ok tnx
Let me just rephrase though what I meant. You get 100% suppressed in 4 weeks time and less then that in the first weeks. So I tried to say that suppression is gradual and it gets to 100% in about a 4 weeks time. Depends on the person and amount of test off course. But in most cases in 10 days there wouldn't be 100% suppression. = This is how I understood it.
I would expect to show fully suppressed LH levels in 10 days of consistent exogenous androgen administration. But the less time you spend dormant, the easier it tends to be to fire back up. Again, compounds matter too. 1-test will suppress harder than test, and nor-testosterones like trest harder still.
Jinsun
Well-known member
Ok, tnx for the school lesson
So I've started to feel much better today, had a good nights sleep and decided to try the other tamox that I have. I'll be dosing 20mg and do bloods - check LH - on Friday. I'll keep you guys updated. Also if you have any thoughts or suggestions I'm all ears...
So I've started to feel much better today, had a good nights sleep and decided to try the other tamox that I have. I'll be dosing 20mg and do bloods - check LH - on Friday. I'll keep you guys updated. Also if you have any thoughts or suggestions I'm all ears...
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
^ Every time I see your name I think of CatDog from nickelodeon lol
Hyde
Legend
What doesn’t work about it?
CatSnake
Well-known member
the regular E2 test from Private MD for the female panel (even when you check the "male" box) is only for women... it will always show that men's E2 is way low.
several of us here had issues with it.
men need the sensitive panel for E2.
.
irishiron300
Member
Im reading up on SERM use on cycle as it is interesting. Seen a few things including eod dosing, full mg dose (say clomid 50mg) and half dose (clomid 25mg). What have you guys tried with success?
Jinsun
Well-known member
I have no idea tbh. But it always showed e2 in range. It never seemed like it was showing it to be to low...
I'm taking 20mg tamox ed now for 5 days. On friday I'll do another set of tests. I'll ask about the test if it's female or male.
Hyde
Legend
I had bloods pulled like a month ago through them with that panel and levels read normal, and the number was one I’d expect to see for me.
CatSnake
Well-known member
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Bump
Hyde
Legend
I do not believe so. The range listed is a male range and it says it used the Roche ECLIA method, but I can no longer view the requisition papers, only results. See below:
Invalid Link Removed
CatSnake
Well-known member
yeah, that's the regular E2 test.
here's the thread where I brought this up a while back:
Invalid Link Removed
John Smeton
Legend
Friendly doctor and friend or mine I knew for 16 years . Real easy we talk about what i take, and he writes me a script. Its for bone health, raloxifene is the only serm shown in studies to increase bone mineral density in bones
In fact clomid been shown to reduce bone mineral density and thats why I use ralzoxifene as a anti-estrogen of choice, over clomid and other serms
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Thanks for the input bro. Again, what compounds were you on, for how long, and what are your LH, FSH, and total T levels?
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
God I wish I would have paid attention to my LH level when I had my bloodwork done. But I mean, it had to be in normal range for my total T to be at 450 during such a heavy cycle.... Or can you have low LH and high FSH and have good test production? Dunno
Also, if your estrogen is normal wouldn't that mean your test production is somewhat normal? I mean you have to have T to have E.....
Jinsun
Well-known member
I am taking 330mg's of 4ad which converts to test aaand 250mg's test cyp
You were on a lightly suppressive cycle. That's why you had TT in range probably... That or the lab read primo or dbol for test maybe which I doubt.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
I am taking 330mg's of 4ad which converts to test aaand 250mg's test cyp
You were on a lightly suppressive cycle. That's why you had TT in range probably... That or the lab read primo or dbol for test maybe which I doubt.
50mg a day of dbol and 400mg a week of primo is lightly suppressive? And yeah if it were reading the dboll as test it would have been through the roof at 50mg a day. That 450 was almost certainly being produced by my body. And my balls were almost normal sized too so that has to mean LH was being produced, right?
Jinsun
Well-known member
Well... 400 primo is light, dbol not so much lol
But you can pulse with dbol and basically not get shutdown. How did you take it and when in the cycle did you do the test?It is interesting to see however that a serm does nothing...
heckler7
Active member
a lot of bad info in this thread so I will try to help you by addressing your opening statement, clomid is a very harsh drug and should not be used as a cycle, you could get sides like vision loss that will stay with you forever. getting labs done 1 week out of last pin you are still on cycle and will get a decent test reading. just saying if you were taking clomid only and your labs came back at 450 than that would be a good indication that its effective, you are running several compounds and maybe even some supps that are not mentioned
Hyde
Legend
Clomid is commonly prescribed by endo’s for chronic HRT administration. It IS used my medical doctors as a cycle in men.
I am currently taking Toremifene @ 30mg on day 11 of a mild cycle. At the end around 2 months I will be pulling bloods so see if it fairs any better than Nolva did for Jinsun. Torem also has prostate & lipid-protective qualities so that is also of interest to me either way.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Plenty of docs prescribe clomid for long term treatment of hypogonadism. Not saying its the healthiest drug but still.
And after 10 weeks my test levels should have been tanked. Completely shut down, well below 100 total. The only explanation for the 450 reading and for me still having balls is the clomid.
Jinsun
Well-known member
Options:
1. You weren't shutdown bc the amount of aas was somehow not enough to shut you down. Dbol isn't the mot suppressive compound as is not primo.
2. Clomid works better then tamox for on cycle.
3. Since you were dosing clomid throughout the cycle it was already built up in your system. So once you stopped taking dbol and primo PCT had a kick start. Much quicker then if you had just started taking clomid. This combined with the short half life of dbol and the fact you were only taking 400mg's of primo, which in it self probably isn't strong enough to shut you down, let alone fight against 100% saturation of clomid is what had your TT levels at 450.
4. Combination of not 100% shutdown and option 3.
I also think that test is harder to recover from then dbol or primo. What your experience tells me is that starting a serm 1 week before PCT might help in a quicker recovery and no need for a "loading" phase for a serm.
heckler7
Active member
I was gonna add unless your are seeing a doctor and getting regular labs, but it isnt the best drug for what you are trying to achive, proviron is a much better choice
Hyde
Legend
Can you elaborate a bit more as to what benefits proviron offers and what dosage you prefer? I always thought it was an extremely mild oral DHT drug to be stacked anywhere you’d want more libido and estrogen antagonism, like mast. But I don’t see how that would help prevent shutdown on cycle, just enrich wellbeing on blast.
But I’m pretty ignorant about it so if there’s other stuff worth mentioning I’m interested!
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
In the study (only 4 days but still relevant) LH dropped as soon as external test was injected. While on clomid, not even 2x the normal amount of testosterone could suppress LH to any extent. I wish the study were longer... But my current conclusion is that tamox may not be sufficient for maintaining LH levels, or maybe it hasn't had enough time to build up in your system.
I had 10 weeks of clomid in my system at the time of my blood work. And sorry but you won't convince me that my lack of suppression and hanging balls were because 50mg of dbol and 400mg of primo wasn't strong enough to shut me down. Because that is a lot of AAS believe it or not. My levels should have been tanked.
Jinsun
Well-known member
Well 1 week in pct is possible imo bc clomid was already built up in your system. Not convincing you, just thinking out loud...
heckler7
Active member
priviron binds to shbg and frees up free test, it also effects the aromataze enzyme. its important to not use it as an AI.
Jinsun
Well-known member
lol what? I don't know if you are even trying to read what's being written in this thread. Even your first post was misguided as Ricky was not using test only dbol and primo. And proviron is NOT a good choice for what he is trying to achieve. He is trying to keep the HPTA function up and running. How is proviron going to help with that? Proviron helps with sperm and is used for that by doctors not for HPTA. In larger doses it's even suppressive to the HPTA. Sorry don't want to be harsh but all your post's in this thread were missguided and just taking up space and steering this thread in unnecessary directions
Mine are normal size btw. But I am feeling some slight pain now and then as if when they are shrinking. Also it might be that my balls are just naturaly sooo big that I don't notice any shrinkage.
So I was thinking... The negative feedback loop isn't dependant only on estrogen but also on testosterone/dht or it's analogs (aas). Soooo we aren't doing anything about that. We are just taking care of estrogen. You can have zero estro but if your androgen levels are high enough you will be shutdown. And no amount of serm can defeat that apparently. Now if you are on low suppressive compounds, or if you took only a half dose trt amount of test, than I guess you can help yourself with a serm. So maybe this protocol is good only for low suppression cycles ie. 400mg's primo, dbol only on workout days or low dose var, tbol... This is my best guess.
rtmilburn
Well-known member
This is true. The feedback loop is not dependent on estrogen only. The theory here is if we can utilize the estrogen pathway, though the usage of a serm, we can maybe limit suppression. On a any cycle, let alone a hefty cycle, suppression is going to happen. The goal here is just to minimize it and have maybe some levels of function through the usage of a serm. Thus leading to easier recovery and limiting any long term damage to the hpta.lol what? I don't know if you are even trying to read what's being written in this thread. Even your first post was misguided as Ricky was not using test only dbol and primo. And proviron is NOT a good choice for what he is trying to achieve. He is trying to keep the HPTA function up and running. How is proviron going to help with that? Proviron helps with sperm and is used for that by doctors not for HPTA. In larger doses it's even suppressive to the HPTA. Sorry don't want to be harsh but all your post's in this thread were missguided and just taking up space and steering this thread in unnecessary directions
Mine are normal size btw. But I am feeling some slight pain now and then as if when they are shrinking. Also it might be that my balls are just naturaly sooo big that I don't notice any shrinkage.
So I was thinking... The negative feedback loop isn't dependant only on estrogen but also on testosterone/dht or it's analogs (aas). Soooo we aren't doing anything about that. We are just taking care of estrogen. You can have zero estro but if your androgen levels are high enough you will be shutdown. And no amount of serm can defeat that apparently. Now if you are on low suppressive compounds, or if you took only a half dose trt amount of test, than I guess you can help yourself with a serm. So maybe this protocol is good only for low suppression cycles ie. 400mg's primo, dbol only on workout days or low dose var, tbol... This is my best guess.
There are so many pathways involved here. I know the gaba receptors can effect LH and fsh, same goes for opiods receptors. There are more as well.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Clomid is about 20% better at stimulating HTPA function.
Don’t get discouraged though, even if you get some atrophy and your test drops down to 300-400, you will recover that much quicker.
Thanks for the updates. If you get much more atrophy you COULD titrate your torem dose upward and see if that saves the boys. I’m the name of science
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
This. HTPA damage happens every time you cycle. Whether it be a 1% reduction in function up to a 20% reduction. Dependent on several factors. Minimizing that damage Should be important to everyone who cycles.
heckler7
Active member
clomid during cycle, thats all I need to hear. you must understand what a cycle is doing to your hormone balance first. you have no idea at all what you are talking about and dont understand what I am saying. you guys need to research and learn something. a lot of bad info being thrown around herelol what? I don't know if you are even trying to read what's being written in this thread. Even your first post was misguided as Ricky was not using test only dbol and primo. And proviron is NOT a good choice for what he is trying to achieve. He is trying to keep the HPTA function up and running. How is proviron going to help with that? Proviron helps with sperm and is used for that by doctors not for HPTA. In larger doses it's even suppressive to the HPTA. Sorry don't want to be harsh but all your post's in this thread were missguided and just taking up space and steering this thread in unnecessary directions
.
heckler7
Active member
if you are injecting testosterone doesnt matter what amount you are shutting down your natural test production, if you are so concerned about how you balls look inject HCG. that is all