Clomid during cycle

RickyBlobby

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I posted this in another thread, but I figured this would be a valuable piece of info for many.

My first (oral) cycle was long, 10 weeks and I had a kitchen sink PCT with clomid/ DAA/ and an OTC PCT. Got my test levels checked 3 weeks into PCT and it was around 250 total.

A few cycles later- Primo and Dbol, 10 or 12 weeks I forget, I ran Clomid at 25mg/ day throughout. Immediately post cycle, like a week or less after my last injection, I checked my level to test my theory and it was above 450 total.

I know of a few pros that use clomid during cycle, so I tried it and it worked. FYI
 
RickyBlobby

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Oh and another thing that may interest people.... On CJC no DAC and HRP-2 (cant remember the dosage but it was the generally recommended dose, 3x daily) my GH levels were right at 30 or 31 and I think the range was like 1-4 if I remember correctly. It was waaaay off the charts. Unfortunately the company I dought the peptides from is no longer in business. But if you can find legit peptides, they are a legitimate replacement for HGH. No doubt.
 

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Hmmm.. what did your first cycle consist of? And what was your test prior to running your other cycles? I'm just trying to get an idea if this was necessarily due to clomid or if it had to maybe due to the amount of suppression or a combination etc.
 

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So, after your cycle that included taking 25mg of Clomid a day, did you still do a full PCT afterward?

Interesting stuff and thanks for sharing btw
 
RickyBlobby

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Hmmm.. what did your first cycle consist of? And what was your test prior to running your other cycles? I'm just trying to get an idea if this was necessarily due to clomid or if it had to maybe due to the amount of suppression or a combination etc.
Oral tren and epistane. Not sure previous levels, was 33yo and on natty test booster prior.

So, after your cycle that included taking 25mg of Clomid a day, did you still do a full PCT afterward?

Interesting stuff and thanks for sharing btw
I continued using clomid until around 4 weeks after cycle ended. Did not get bloods afterwards.

It is clear to me that using clomid during cycle limits suppression. And like I said there are pros that use this protocol as well. I guess its kind of a "secret" since you don't hear many people recommend it.

I did a lot of research and everyone that recommended against it did NOT try it. And everyone that DID try it said it worked for them. Quite a bit of research too.
 

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I posted this in another thread, but I figured this would be a valuable piece of info for many.

My first (oral) cycle was long, 10 weeks and I had a kitchen sink PCT with clomid/ DAA/ and an OTC PCT. Got my test levels checked 3 weeks into PCT and it was around 250 total.

A few cycles later- Primo and Dbol, 10 or 12 weeks I forget, I ran Clomid at 25mg/ day throughout. Immediately post cycle, like a week or less after my last injection, I checked my level to test my theory and it was above 450 total.

I know of a few pros that use clomid during cycle, so I tried it and it worked. FYI
For years I've been trying to convince people that SERMs on cycle prevent shutdown. There's even published research supporting this. I've run many, many cycles with toremifene and LH/FSH stay within normal range all through cycle. When I come off cycle, I continue the torem for 4 weeks and then stop. T sticks in the 850-950 range with normal LH/FSH.

But what do I know? I'm just some guy on a message board...
 
RickyBlobby

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For years I've been trying to convince people that SERMs on cycle prevent shutdown. There's even published research supporting this. I've run many, many cycles with toremifene and LH/FSH stay within normal range all through cycle. When I come off cycle, I continue the torem for 4 weeks and then stop. T sticks in the 850-950 range with normal LH/FSH.

But what do I know? I'm just some guy on a message board...
Glad to here someone else here has experience with it :)
 
BloodManor

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For years I've been trying to convince people that SERMs on cycle prevent shutdown. There's even published research supporting this. I've run many, many cycles with toremifene and LH/FSH stay within normal range all through cycle. When I come off cycle, I continue the torem for 4 weeks and then stop. T sticks in the 850-950 range with normal LH/FSH.

But what do I know? I'm just some guy on a message board...
Pretty interesting idea I must say
And would be awesome if you can cycle and not be shut down. What would be the disadvantages running it through a 12-16 week cycle and what would a weekly/daily dose be.
 
RickyBlobby

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Pretty interesting idea I must say
And would be awesome if you can cycle and not be shut down. What would be the disadvantages running it through a 12-16 week cycle and what would a weekly/daily dose be.
If all SERMs mingle with are estrogen receptors and do not affect androgen receptors/ SHBG/ 5ar enzyme I would assume the only side effects would be prevention of gyno, and possible slight mood altering properties. I'm not 100% sure though. Didn't seem to affect me other than keep my nuts swole and keep me from getting shut down. Clomid I used 25mg/ day
 
RickyBlobby

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For years I've been trying to convince people that SERMs on cycle prevent shutdown. There's even published research supporting this. I've run many, many cycles with toremifene and LH/FSH stay within normal range all through cycle. When I come off cycle, I continue the torem for 4 weeks and then stop. T sticks in the 850-950 range with normal LH/FSH.

But what do I know? I'm just some guy on a message board...
Injectable cycle? If so what esters and do you continue taking torem 4 weeks after the last INJECTION or....
 
Cgkone

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Oral tren and epistane. Not sure previous levels, was 33yo and on natty test booster prior.



I continued using clomid until around 4 weeks after cycle ended. Did not get bloods afterwards.

It is clear to me that using clomid during cycle limits suppression. And like I said there are pros that use this protocol as well. I guess its kind of a "secret" since you don't hear many people recommend it.

I did a lot of research and everyone that recommended against it did NOT try it. And everyone that DID try it said it worked for them. Quite a bit of research too.
You know pros that PCT?
Or they just run Clomid on cycle.
I though most pros probably stayed on.
 
RickyBlobby

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You know pros that PCT?
Or they just run Clomid on cycle.
I though most pros probably stayed on.
I now reputable pros that have used/ recommended clomid throughout to prevent shutdown. I think it was in a thread on PM. I agree most pros probably blast/ cruise indefinitely. I also know of one for sure that cruises at 80mg/ week test E. And that's it. And I'm not 100% sure but I bet there are some natty ones out there.
 
Cgkone

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I now reputable pros that have used/ recommended clomid throughout to prevent shutdown. I think it was in a thread on PM. I agree most pros probably blast/ cruise indefinitely. I also know of one for sure that cruises at 80mg/ week test E. And that's it. And I'm not 100% sure but I bet there are some natty ones out there.
I'm not trying to be a jerk so I hope it Dosnt come off that way.
I have tons of Clomid that I figured I would never use.
But since I cruise how will I tell if the clomid is even doing anything?
See what I'm saying?
I'm not a pro bodybuilder.
But I stay on GEAR at least a CC at all times.
 

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I have tons of Clomid that I figured I would never use.
But since I cruise how will I tell if the clomid is even doing anything?
Check the size of your testes after awhile of usage.
 
GoHardOrGoHme

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To really know if you are not shutdown during a cycle, while using clomid, mid cycle bloodwork with FSH and LH along with a sperm analysis would make a stronger case. Furthermore post cycle blood work showing maintenance of LH, FSH, sperm count, and subsequently test levels while all hormones are out of yoru system would even further strengthen your argument.

What esters where you on during the primo and dbol cycle? I ask because you mentioned an injection in your original post. Because if you where using cyp or some other long ester, the 450 could still be the injection and not truly a sign of recovery. If you werent on any long acting esters then this isnt an issue.

Just some thoughts.
 

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Injectable cycle? If so what esters and do you continue taking torem 4 weeks after the last INJECTION or....
Test E. Torem/Clomid/Nolva all have a 5-day half life, so running for a month after gives another ~20 days of coverage after the ester has cleared.
 
RickyBlobby

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To really know if you are not shutdown during a cycle, while using clomid, mid cycle bloodwork with FSH and LH along with a sperm analysis would make a stronger case. Furthermore post cycle blood work showing maintenance of LH, FSH, sperm count, and subsequently test levels while all hormones are out of yoru system would even further strengthen your argument.

What esters where you on during the primo and dbol cycle? I ask because you mentioned an injection in your original post. Because if you where using cyp or some other long ester, the 450 could still be the injection and not truly a sign of recovery. If you werent on any long acting esters then this isnt an issue.

Just some thoughts.
I thought primo shuts down your test production... Are you saying that even after 10-12 weeks on primo my test would be at 450 with or without clomid?
 
RickyBlobby

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8=====D
 
GoHardOrGoHme

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I thought primo shuts down your test production... Are you saying that even after 10-12 weeks on primo my test would be at 450 with or without clomid?
primobolan depot has a half life of 10 days.

So to clarify, the primo may show up as test during a routine total test blood work. This is what I am skeptical about. Now my assumption can be completely incorrect and primo wont show up as test on a standard hormone panel, but in the case that it does then the measures I mentioned prior would negate this critique of your current approach.

The shutting down of test production would be defined as the body shutting down the secretion of GnRH, LH, FSH and in turn shutting down the production of semen. If you measured LH and FSH along with a semen analysis(lets say maybe week 7 on a 10 week cycle) this would be able to show whether or not you where truly shutdown while on clomid during a cycle.
 
RickyBlobby

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primobolan depot has a half life of 10 days.

So to clarify, the primo may show up as test during a routine total test blood work. This is what I am skeptical about. Now my assumption can be completely incorrect and primo wont show up as test on a standard hormone panel, but in the case that it does then the measures I mentioned prior would negate this critique of your current approach.




The shutting down of test production would be defined as the body shutting down the secretion of GnRH, LH, FSH and in turn shutting down the production of semen. If you measured LH and FSH along with a semen analysis(lets say maybe week 7 on a 10 week cycle) this would be able to show whether or not you where truly shutdown while on clomid during a cycle.

One day I was curious about this subject so I searched different forums for hours. What I concluded was that everyone who says don't do clomid during cycle, had never tried it. And everyone who DID actually try it, said it worked. There were several guys who had blood work and/ or swole nuts to prove it. Just like Spurfy here. And myself.
 
GoHardOrGoHme

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One day I was curious about this subject so I searched different forums for hours. What I concluded was that everyone who says don't do clomid during cycle, had never tried it. And everyone who DID actually try it, said it worked. There were several guys who had blood work and/ or swole nuts to prove it. Just like Spurfy here. And myself.

Honestly, this is something I have been wondering myself and offered my input because theoretically I think its plausible given the MOA of clomid.

However, the hole in your argument is the following:
1) question of whether or not primo will show up as elevated test regardless of LH and FSH
2) question of whether or not clomid is maintained HPT function during suppressive cycles
3) semen production and motility remains normal

Therefore, instead of insult your efforts, Im offering constructive criticism to support your endeavors. Your line of thought on how the clomid affects the estrogen receptors directly regardless of circulating test i think is commendable and worthy of giving you honest feedback on your thought process.

Im not bashing you.
 
RickyBlobby

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Honestly, this is something I have been wondering myself and offered my input because theoretically I think its plausible given the MOA of clomid.

However, the hole in your argument is the following:
1) question of whether or not primo will show up as elevated test regardless of LH and FSH
2) question of whether or not clomid is maintained HPT function during suppressive cycles
3) semen production and motility remains normal

Therefore, instead of insult your efforts, Im offering constructive criticism to support your endeavors. Your line of thought on how the clomid affects the estrogen receptors directly regardless of circulating test i think is commendable and worthy of giving you honest feedback on your thought process.

Im not bashing you.
I know youre not bashing me. You are skeptical because what i'm trying to prove isn't the norm and goes against everything that you've learned.

Plus I did not provide enough data to 100% prove my case. But my case plus at least 5 other people who tried with success and zero that tried it with no success and I am a firm believer.

By the way if the primo in my system was reading as testosterone it would have been much higher, giving the amount I was injecting. My balls stayed bigger than normal throughout, and my test level, basically during cycle was 450 (debatable)
 

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SERMs are, I believe, inverse agonists at hypothalamic ER-alpha receptors. This is different than antagonists, which simply sit on the receptor and do nothing and merely block the binding of other ligands. An inverse agonist elecits the opposite response as an agonist. This is the only plausible explanation of why SERMs can maintain LH/FSH on cycle. SERMs aren't merely blocking E2 from binding to ER-alpha, they're actually causing a reverse of whatever impulse flow E2 produces.
 
GoHardOrGoHme

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Im skeptical because of the questions I posed, not because of it goes against everything I have learned. According to what I have learned, your experiment may be successful.

Spurfy just elaborated why i think this is plausible, what I want to see is whether it actually occurs. The plausibility in my mind is there, the actuality is what I want supported.

Honestly, unless you knew what your test levels where during the primo cycle you can't truly know what it would have read as during the cycle regardless of your dosing. Midcycle blood work would have answered this. You are making an educated guess, which at this point can still be refuted.

I want to see that "debatable" status of this experiment to change to supported or refuted lol
 
solidsnake

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Very interesting thread, might give this a whirl on my next cycle
 
RickyBlobby

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Im skeptical because of the questions I posed, not because of it goes against everything I have learned. According to what I have learned, your experiment may be successful.

Spurfy just elaborated why i think this is plausible, what I want to see is whether it actually occurs. The plausibility in my mind is there, the actuality is what I want supported.

Honestly, unless you knew what your test levels where during the primo cycle you can't truly know what it would have read as during the cycle regardless of your dosing. Midcycle blood work would have answered this. You are making an educated guess, which at this point can still be refuted.

I want to see that "debatable" status of this experiment to change to supported or refuted lol
My total test was 450, essentialy during cycle. Within a week of my last injection, when the primobolan ester was still very much in my body and had not given my body any response to begin producing testosterone.
 
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My total test was 450, essentialy during cycle. Within a week of my last injection, when the primobolan ester was still very much in my body and had not given my body any response to begin producing testosterone.
do you by chance have the LH and FSH measurement? Or did you just do a total test measurement?
 
RickyBlobby

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I did not think to look at LH and FSH, only total T. But Spurfy has and his always are in the normal range during cycle according to him. He uses torem though.
 

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I did not think to look at LH and FSH, only total T. But Spurfy has and his always are in the normal range during cycle according to him. He uses torem though.
Clomid is actually about 20% stronger at stimulating LH/FSH than torem, but I like torem because it's slightly androgenic (seems to upregulates 5-a-reductase), has zero side-effects even at 120 mg/day, absolutely crushes/prevents gyno, and is extremely protective to the prostate.
 
RickyBlobby

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Might have to give torem a go next time
 
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Clomid is actually about 20% stronger at stimulating LH/FSH than torem, but I like torem because it's slightly androgenic (seems to upregulates 5-a-reductase), has zero side-effects even at 120 mg/day, absolutely crushes/prevents gyno, and is extremely protective to the prostate.
What’s your dosing on an average cycle bro? Of torem
 

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What’s your dosing on an average cycle bro? Of torem
30 mg/day for T+Var or Var-only. I don't use 19-nors, or really anything else, since there's nothing stronger than Var, but if I did I'd run 60-90 mg/day of torem.
 

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30 mg/day for T+Var or Var-only. I don't use 19-nors, or really anything else, since there's nothing stronger than Var, but if I did I'd run 60-90 mg/day of torem.[/

I’ve got a question for ya... if one was to use torem for their “HRT”... how would you recommend running it? Would you run anything alongside it?
 

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30 mg/day for T+Var or Var-only. I don't use 19-nors, or really anything else, since there's nothing stronger than Var, but if I did I'd run 60-90 mg/day of torem.[/

I’ve got a question for ya... if one was to use torem for their “HRT”... how would you recommend running it? Would you run anything alongside it?
I would run it by itself starting at 90 mg/day EOD for a week, then 60 EOD for a week, then 30, then 15. Staying at 15 mg EOD and getting blood work every few months. If T levels are good, then stay. If not, titrate dose upwards as needed.
 

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I would run it by itself starting at 90 mg/day EOD for a week, then 60 EOD for a week, then 30, then 15. Staying at 15 mg EOD and getting blood work every few months. If T levels are good, then stay. If not, titrate dose upwards as needed.
Got it! So you would not recommend a mild ai or proviron? The torem should be able to keep free t high and estrogen in Check? Thx
 

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Got it! So you would not recommend a mild ai or proviron? The torem should be able to keep free t high and estrogen in Check? Thx
Proviron can give a nice little boost, but it's not necessary with torem. If you were going to run clomid then I'd say run 25 mg/day of Proviron.

No AI is needed with torem, unlike clomid, it doesn't significantly upregulate aromatase or SHBG.

Torem seems to be a bit androgenic by itself.
 
RickyBlobby

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Bump for teh knowledge
 
RickyBlobby

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Bump
 
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I had used it on cycle many times back in 2012-13 and returned to 800+ test level. Recovered very well typically, and ran alongside Letro, it obliterated estro sides. I tend to run Nolvadex more often on cycle(blast technically) now since I’m absurdly gyno-prone. But done experimentally back in the day, I found it to be great to use with an AI to minimize shutdown and estro sides.
 
RickyBlobby

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So we are at 3 or 4 people who have actually TRIED it and have had success. Versus ZERO who have tried it with no success. Bump.
 
RickyBlobby

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For years I've been trying to convince people that SERMs on cycle prevent shutdown. There's even published research supporting this. I've run many, many cycles with toremifene and LH/FSH stay within normal range all through cycle. When I come off cycle, I continue the torem for 4 weeks and then stop. T sticks in the 850-950 range with normal LH/FSH.

But what do I know? I'm just some guy on a message board...
Is there any way you can post the referenced study? :)
 
RickyBlobby

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BAM!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4708215/


Main problem

Testosterone replacement therapy inhibits spermatogenesis, representing a problem for hypogonadal men of reproductive age.


Methods

A literature review of PubMed from 1990-2013. Semen analysis and pregnancy outcomes, time to recovery of spermatogenesis, serum and intratesticular testosterone levels were examined.


Results

Exogenous testosterone suppresses intratesticular testosterone production, which is an absolute prerequisite for normal spermatogenesis. Therapies that protect the testis involve human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) therapy or selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs), but may also include low dose hCG with exogenous testosterone. SERMs, such as clomiphene citrate, are effective for maintaining testosterone production and represent a well-tolerated, oral therapy. Routine use of aromatase inhibitors is not recommended based on a lack of long-term data.


Conclusions

Exogenous testosterone supplementation decreases sperm production. Studies of hormonal contraception indicate that most men have a return of normal sperm production within 1 year after discontinuation. Clomiphene citrate is a safe and effective therapy for men who desire to maintain future potential fertility. Although less frequently used in the general population, hCG therapy with or without testosterone supplementation represents an alternative treatment.
 
Dthcore

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BAM!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4708215/


Main problem

Testosterone replacement therapy inhibits spermatogenesis, representing a problem for hypogonadal men of reproductive age.


Methods

A literature review of PubMed from 1990-2013. Semen analysis and pregnancy outcomes, time to recovery of spermatogenesis, serum and intratesticular testosterone levels were examined.


Results

Exogenous testosterone suppresses intratesticular testosterone production, which is an absolute prerequisite for normal spermatogenesis. Therapies that protect the testis involve human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) therapy or selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs), but may also include low dose hCG with exogenous testosterone. SERMs, such as clomiphene citrate, are effective for maintaining testosterone production and represent a well-tolerated, oral therapy. Routine use of aromatase inhibitors is not recommended based on a lack of long-term data.


Conclusions

Exogenous testosterone supplementation decreases sperm production. Studies of hormonal contraception indicate that most men have a return of normal sperm production within 1 year after discontinuation. Clomiphene citrate is a safe and effective therapy for men who desire to maintain future potential fertility. Although less frequently used in the general population, hCG therapy with or without testosterone supplementation represents an alternative treatment.
So use both clomid and hcg during cycle?
 
Dthcore

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Proviron can give a nice little boost, but it's not necessary with torem. If you were going to run clomid then I'd say run 25 mg/day of Proviron.

No AI is needed with torem, unlike clomid, it doesn't significantly upregulate aromatase or SHBG.

Torem seems to be a bit androgenic by itself.
So if one is using torem you really don’t need to use an ai during cycle? Does it kill estro like aromasin would or is it effect more like nolva?
 
AnabolicGuru

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BAM!

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4708215/


Main problem

Testosterone replacement therapy inhibits spermatogenesis, representing a problem for hypogonadal men of reproductive age.


Methods

A literature review of PubMed from 1990-2013. Semen analysis and pregnancy outcomes, time to recovery of spermatogenesis, serum and intratesticular testosterone levels were examined.


Results

Exogenous testosterone suppresses intratesticular testosterone production, which is an absolute prerequisite for normal spermatogenesis. Therapies that protect the testis involve human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) therapy or selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs), but may also include low dose hCG with exogenous testosterone. SERMs, such as clomiphene citrate, are effective for maintaining testosterone production and represent a well-tolerated, oral therapy. Routine use of aromatase inhibitors is not recommended based on a lack of long-term data.


Conclusions

Exogenous testosterone supplementation decreases sperm production. Studies of hormonal contraception indicate that most men have a return of normal sperm production within 1 year after discontinuation. Clomiphene citrate is a safe and effective therapy for men who desire to maintain future potential fertility. Although less frequently used in the general population, hCG therapy with or without testosterone supplementation represents an alternative treatment.
It looks like the study is just saying that clomid is good for coming off of test as opposed to using it while on; maybe I misread.
 

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