Clomid during cycle

[RickyBlobby]

So use both clomid and hcg during cycle?

No need to use both. SERMS are better IMO because they actually stimulate the pituitary. HCG does not and will cause it to go to "sleep" during cycle meaning when you come off it will take a while to "wake up"

 

[RickyBlobby]

It looks like the study is just saying that clomid is good for coming off of test as opposed to using it while on; maybe I misread.

No.
SERMs, such as clomiphene citrate, are effective for maintaining testosterone production and represent a well-tolerated, oral therapy

Clomiphene citrate is a safe and effective therapy for men who desire to maintain future potential fertility.

 

[RickyBlobby]

There are at least five people that have been on this board recently that can verify SERMS

A) Maintain testosterone production on cycle as per bloodwork
B) Normalize LH and FSH on cycle as per bloodwork
C) Maintain testicular size as per self evaluation

 

[RickyBlobby]

Bump

 

[RickyBlobby]

TTT

 

[Kratom267]

A little off topic, but yesterday i wanted to test out an old bottle of Clomid i stashed away, at least 6yrs old....its insane how fast clomid works on the boys. Within 20mins i noticed my balls were hanging lower (and my house was freezing cold with the A/C on blast!) and looked about 10% larger, no joke. Is this fairly normal in your experience?
I did however notice the prostate issue that i mentioned on this thread (or perhaps a different one on this forum), I had slight trouble getting my normal stream going. Wonder why that is? Is clomid known for slightly effecting the prostate or could it be effecting something else?
Think ill order some Torem (as you mentioned that it is being used for prostate cancer) for my upcoming DMZ cycle...

 

[RickyBlobby]

Yeah, clomid makes your nuts fat and solid, quickly. Even after a really harsh cycle, within 2 weeks they are hangin low

 

[RickyBlobby]

How many people are gonna at least try this out next cycle? 50mg EOD and titrate dosage upwards to 50mg ED as needed.

 

[cubs1987]

interesting... subbed

 

[gphagan1]

I have Clomid and Torem. I thought about trying the Torem during my next cycle in May, and see how it goes.
It makes since, so why not. And I respond well to Clomid, Torem, and Nolva.

 

[Dthcore]

I’m trying this for sure when I cycle in 2 months. Debating between clomid and torem.

 

[Spurfy]

I’m trying this for sure when I cycle in 2 months. Debating between clomid and torem.

Clomid is stronger, but torem is much, much cleaner (doesn't really elevate SHBG, no occular toxicity, doesn't lower T3, very protective of the prostate, doesn't lower IGF-1, seems to possess some degree of androgenicity on its own, is basically side effect-free for most users, very very favorable effects on lipids and other cardiovascular health markers, MUCH more potent E2 control to the point where an AI isn't needed on any cycle).

 

[Kratom267]

Clomid is stronger, but torem is much, much cleaner (doesn't really elevate SHBG, no occular toxicity, doesn't lower T3, very protective of the prostate, doesn't lower IGF-1, seems to possess some degree of androgenicity on its own, is basically side effect-free for most users, very very favorable effects on lipids and other cardiovascular health markers, MUCH more potent E2 control to the point where an AI isn't needed on any cycle).

When you say "very protective of the prostate", does that mean it doesn't effect the prostate much or does it help with prostate enlargement? The only thing ive seen about Torem and the prostate, is that its being used to treat prostate cancer...But nothing about Torem and prostate enlargement issues, etc.
Ive been having trouble when i take clomid (solo or right after a PH cycle) seems to make it a bit harder to start peeing and get a good stream going...Wondering if i would still have this problem if i switched over to Torem. If you know of any research/studies on how Torem effects the prostate, id love to see it. Thanks!

 

[Spurfy]

When you say "very protective of the prostate", does that mean it doesn't effect the prostate much or does it help with prostate enlargement? The only thing ive seen about Torem and the prostate, is that its being used to treat prostate cancer...But nothing about Torem and prostate enlargement issues, etc.
Ive been having trouble when i take clomid (solo or right after a PH cycle) seems to make it a bit harder to start peeing and get a good stream going...Wondering if i would still have this problem if i switched over to Torem. If you know of any research/studies on how Torem effects the prostate, id love to see it. Thanks!

I mean it prevents prostate cancer by around 50%

"The annualized rate of prevention was 6.8 cancers per 100 men treated [...] In patients with no biopsy evidence of cancer at baseline and 6 months, the 12-month incidence of prostate cancer was decreased by 48.2% with 20 mg toremifene compared with placebo"
J Urol. 2006 Sep;176(3):965-70; discussion 970-1.

 

[Dthcore]

Clomid is stronger, but torem is much, much cleaner (doesn't really elevate SHBG, no occular toxicity, doesn't lower T3, very protective of the prostate, doesn't lower IGF-1, seems to possess some degree of androgenicity on its own, is basically side effect-free for most users, very very favorable effects on lipids and other cardiovascular health markers, MUCH more potent E2 control to the point where an AI isn't needed on any cycle).

If I’m currently on a rolaxifine cycle for gyno reversal until then. When that time comes up to I continue rolax at lower dosage?

 

[Kratom267]

Hopefully it helps with prostate enlargement too (id assume it would since its supposedly good for prostate cancer treatment).
Guess ill find out soon, just ordered some Torem from I.D.
I know their Clomid is amazing so hoping the same with their Torem. Anyone know a good dose of Torem while on cycle? I'm not even sure about torem PCT dosages...aren't they 120/90/90/30? Maybe ill just run 30mg Torem on cycle...

Thanks for all the info dudes! Really love this forum.

 

[Spurfy]

If I’m currently on a rolaxifine cycle for gyno reversal until then. When that time comes up to I continue rolax at lower dosage?

No need. Torem is almost as potent for gyno as ralox.

 

[Spurfy]

Hopefully it helps with prostate enlargement too (id assume it would since its supposedly good for prostate cancer treatment).
Guess ill find out soon, just ordered some Torem from I.D.
I know their Clomid is amazing so hoping the same with their Torem. Anyone know a good dose of Torem while on cycle? I'm not even sure about torem PCT dosages...aren't they 120/90/90/30? Maybe ill just run 30mg Torem on cycle...

Thanks for all the info dudes! Really love this forum.

Just run 30 mg/day whole cycle and 30 mg/day for 4 weeks PCT. If you're using 19-nors then double the dosage of torem for on-cycle and PCT.

 

[Dthcore]

No need. Torem is almost as potent for gyno as ralox.

Would you suggest the same dosage at that point too? Btw that’s for the reply!

 

[Spurfy]

Would you suggest the same dosage at that point too? Btw that’s for the reply!

Same dosage.

 

[Kratom267]

Cool, yeah I'm fixing to run a DMZ cycle (32mg) so ill do the 30mg Torem during the cycle....not sure about only 30mg for PCT though. Shouldn't it be run a bit higher then taper off?

 

[Spurfy]

Cool, yeah I'm fixing to run a DMZ cycle (32mg) so ill do the 30mg Torem during the cycle....not sure about only 30mg for PCT though. Shouldn't it be run a bit higher then taper off?

Why? If you're not shutdown then you don't need a high dose to start your PCT. The whole point of SERM on-cycle is that you don't shutdown.

The 30 mg/day for 4-weeks PCT is just to ensure everything has cleared your system while having the SERM on-board. There's no such thing as "E2 rebound" from a SERM. Only type II AIs cause E2 rebound.

 

[210LBS]

Why? If you're not shutdown then you don't need a high dose to start your PCT. The whole point of SERM on-cycle is that you don't shutdown.

The 30 mg/day for 4-weeks PCT is just to ensure everything has cleared your system while having the SERM on-board.

But running a SERM on cycle doesn't let you off the hook of using an AI, does it? I thought the SERM can help for competing for estrogen at the receptor but isn't the best choice for actually controlling estrogen.

 

[Kratom267]

Why? If you're not shutdown then you don't need a high dose to start your PCT. The whole point of SERM on-cycle is that you don't shutdown.

The 30 mg/day for 4-weeks PCT is just to ensure everything has cleared your system while having the SERM on-board.

Yeah i see what your saying. I just figured that even with the 30mg of Torem during the cycle wouldn't keep my test levels completely normal, so running a higher dose during PCT would help to really jump start everything. Guess ill see how bad i feel during the cycle and adjust the PCT if needed. Maybe ill do 90mg for the first week of PCT then down to 30mg. I wish there was more labs out there showing how well Torem (or other serms) work on cycle. I guess it will get more popular as time goes on...I ran clomid during a cycle and could def tell the positive effects.

 

[RickyBlobby]

If you're using 19-nors then double the dosage of torem for on-cycle and PCT.

Makes sense. Might want to triple it for Trestolone haha.

 

[RickyBlobby]

Spurfy how is clomid for gyno compared to nolva/ ralox?

50% as effective? 75?

 

[RickyBlobby]

Maybe ill do 90mg for the first week of PCT then down to 30mg.

Can't hurt. Torem is pretty safe from what I hear.

I'd love to see you get bloods on the last day of your cycle. I'd pitch in a few bucks towards it honestly

 

[Spurfy]

But running a SERM on cycle doesn't let you off the hook of using an AI, does it? I thought the SERM can help for competing for estrogen at the receptor but isn't the best choice for actually controlling estrogen.

I have already covered this ad nauseum. You do not need an AI when you're using a SERM and I have explained the reasons numerous times.

 

[Kratom267]

Can't hurt. Torem is pretty safe from what I hear.

I'd love to see you get bloods on the last day of your cycle. I'd pitch in a few bucks towards it honestly

You know of a cheap lab to get bloods done? Thought a few years ago people talked about a reliable and inexpensive lab. If not, i can always just go to my primary doc, though without insurance it can be a bitch.

 

[Spurfy]

Yeah i see what your saying. I just figured that even with the 30mg of Torem during the cycle wouldn't keep my test levels completely normal

The goal is to keep your brain/balls functioning, not keep test levels normal.

so running a higher dose during PCT would help to really jump start everything.

You will see no additional benefit of running higher doses in PCT. None. No need to "jump-start" because the machine is already turned on.

Guess ill see how bad i feel during the cycle and adjust the PCT if needed. Maybe ill do 90mg for the first week of PCT then down to 30mg. I wish there was more labs out there showing how well Torem (or other serms) work on cycle. I guess it will get more popular as time goes on...I ran clomid during a cycle and could def tell the positive effects.

You can always bump the dose of torem up as high as 90 mg/day on-cycle if you're just not "feeling it." Ball size and morning energy levels are the best indicator of how well you're functioning.

 

[Spurfy]

Spurfy how is clomid for gyno compared to nolva/ ralox?

50% as effective? 75?

I've gotten mild gyno from clomid-only, so I'd say 0%

 

[RickyBlobby]

But running a SERM on cycle doesn't let you off the hook of using an AI, does it? I thought the SERM can help for competing for estrogen at the receptor but isn't the best choice for actually controlling estrogen.

I don't believe it lowers the amount of estrogen in your system to any significant degree. That said, estrogen is good for growth, but if you insisted on taking an AI I would only do half the normal dose so that you don't crush it completely.

I'm not sure if BB'ers had AI's back in the 70's and they popped dbol like candy, lol. For a short cycle extra estrogen shouldn't cause any significant problems, in my opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Kratom267]

The goal is to keep your brain/balls functioning, not keep test levels normal.



You will see no additional benefit of running higher doses in PCT. None. No need to "jump-start" because the machine is already turned on.



You can always bump the dose of torem up as high as 90 mg/day on-cycle if you're just not "feeling it." Ball size and morning energy levels are the best indicator of how well you're functioning.

You have any bloodwork? And what was your cycle layout?
Thanks

 

[Spurfy]

I don't believe it lowers the amount of estrogen in your system to any significant degree. That said, estrogen is good for growth, but if you insisted on taking an AI I would only do half the normal dose so that you don't crush it completely.

I'm not sure if BB'ers had AI's back in the 70's and they popped dbol like candy, lol. For a short cycle extra estrogen shouldn't cause any significant problems, in my opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Last time I'm going to write this: E2 levels mean nothing if the E2 cannot bind to a receptor because it's being blocked by a SERM.

A SERM allows you to manage E2 without having to tinker with anything. Pop the SERM -- done. E2 is completely controlled and balanced. Not too much, not too little.

 

[RickyBlobby]

I've gotten mild gyno from clomid-only, so I'd say 0%

That suckzzzz bruh. I need some torem I reckon. Tired of using AI's. Only good thing about them is they make me look 5-10 lbs lighter and make my bewbs not pointy, lol. This goes away on its own with lower BF%

 

[Kratom267]

I don't believe it lowers the amount of estrogen in your system to any significant degree. That said, estrogen is good for growth, but if you insisted on taking an AI I would only do half the normal dose so that you don't crush it completely.

I'm not sure if BB'ers had AI's back in the 70's and they popped dbol like candy, lol. For a short cycle extra estrogen shouldn't cause any significant problems, in my opinion. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Yeah i saw a post from PA, saying that DMZ will already crush your estrogen, so running an AI isn't a good idea. I guess it all depends on what PH youre running. Some raise, some crush estrogen.

 

[RickyBlobby]

You know of a cheap lab to get bloods done? Thought a few years ago people talked about a reliable and inexpensive lab. If not, i can always just go to my primary doc, though without insurance it can be a bitch.

I think it's privatemdlabs dot kom. And you order the female panel.

 

[Spurfy]

I've gotten mild gyno from clomid-only, so I'd say 0%

Wait, this isn't true. I was running 50 mg/day Proviron too. Proviron can cause gyno by bumping E2 from SHBG.

 

[210LBS]

Last time I'm going to write this: E2 levels mean nothing if the E2 cannot bind to a receptor because it's being blocked by a SERM.

A SERM allows you to manage E2 without having to tinker with anything. Pop the SERM -- done. E2 is completely controlled and balanced. Not too much, not too little.

There have been plenty of old school BBers who have used tamox on cycle to prevent gyno from aromatizing compounds and they still ended up with gyno. People can take your advice on running just the SERM on cycle but they better have either an AI on hand or a bra.

 

[RickyBlobby]

Last time I'm going to write this: E2 levels mean nothing if the E2 cannot bind to a receptor because it's being blocked by a SERM.

A SERM allows you to manage E2 without having to tinker with anything. Pop the SERM -- done. E2 is completely controlled and balanced. Not too much, not too little.

I know serms do not bind to EVERY estrogen receptor in the body....hence the key word selective.... Meaning that theoreticaly there are some body functions that can be affected by double or triple estrogen? Or am I missing something..

 

[Spurfy]

There have been plenty of old school BBers who have used tamox on cycle to prevent gyno from aromatizing compounds and they still ended up with gyno. People can take your advice on running just the SERM on cycle but they better have either an AI on hand or a bra.

SERMs have, in every single study of the type, absolutely crushed AIs for preventing E2 binding to breast tissue. If you're getting gyno on Tamoxifen, your dose is too low.

 

[210LBS]

SERMs have, in every single study of the type, absolutely crushed AIs for preventing E2 binding to breast tissue. If you're getting gyno on Tamoxifen, your dose is too low.

From binding yes, but they don't control estrogen like an AI, which is why people dose both.

 

[Spurfy]

So the bloat and moodiness you get from excessive estrogen would not be a problem? I know serms do not bind to EVERY estrogen receptor in the body....hence the key word selective....

At full saturation doses they bind to every receptor The "selective" part means they block ER-a and stimulate ER-b. The action is selective, not the binding.

 

[Spurfy]

From binding yes, but they don't control estrogen like an AI, which is why people dose both.

I've already explained it but you're simply choosing not to get it.

 

[RickyBlobby]

SERMs have, in every single study of the type, absolutely crushed AIs for preventing E2 binding to breast tissue. If you're getting gyno on Tamoxifen, your dose is too low.

Not to knock you but I'm trying to make this make sense to me....... Did the studies you referenced test subjects with extremely high estrogens, like in a gram of test a week and 50mg dbol a day? Or did the tests conclude that estrogen was NOT ABLE to reach the receptor under any circumstances?

 

[RickyBlobby]

At full saturation doses they bind to every receptor The "selective" part means they block ER-a and stimulate ER-b. The action is selective, not the binding.

Ah, I see.

 

[Spurfy]

Not to knock you but I'm trying to make this make sense to me....... Did the studies you referenced test subjects with extremely high estrogens, like in a gram of test a week and 50mg dbol a day? Or did the tests conclude that estrogen was NOT ABLE to reach the receptor under any circumstances?

The studies are breast cancer studies. Any estrogen binding to cancerous breast tissue stimulates tumor growth. When 5 years of tamoxifen is able to completely prevent any new tumor growth, that's 100% evidence that all E2 receptors in breast tissue were blocked. E2 levels are *meaningless* if there's no receptor for E2 to occupy -- I don't know why this is hard for people to understand.

 

[210LBS]

I've already explained it but you're simply choosing not to get it.

So hypothetically, if you don't get gyno on cycle (without a SERM) then you cannot get gyno in PCT if you are running a SERM like torem, tamox, clomid, etc.

 

[RickyBlobby]

The studies are breast cancer studies. Any estrogen binding to cancerous breast tissue stimulates tumor growth. When 5 years of tamoxifen is able to completely prevent any new tumor growth, that's 100% evidence that all E2 receptors in breast tissue were blocked. E2 levels are *meaningless* if there's no receptor for E2 to occupy -- I don't know why this is hard for people to understand.

Well this begs the question, what is the saturation dose of nolva, torem, ralox?

 

[RickyBlobby]

So hypothetically, if you don't get gyno on cycle (without a SERM) then you cannot get gyno in PCT if you are running a SERM like torem, tamox, clomid, etc.

I wouldn't include clomid in there for preventing gyno. But you are correct if the receptors are occupied estrogen cannot bind to them. Whether on cycle or PCT.

Edit: I misread your question. Yes you can get gyno if your estrogen level exceeds the saturation level of the SERM. You would need to go up on SERM up to saturation dose as needed if symptoms arise.