Guest viewing limit reached
  • You have reached the maximum number of guest views allowed
  • Please register below to remove this limitation

Clomid during cycle

For all you trt fellas... If you're primary hypo, serm's wont do jack chit for you. It's just a thought, that nobody seemed to mention.
 
Last edited:
Jinsun said:
For all you trt fellas... If you're primary serm's wont do jack chit for you. Just a thought that nobody seemed to mention.
Click to expand...

You forgot to mention what the thought was for us... curious!
 
Jinsun said:
For all you trt fellas... If you're primary serm's wont do jack chit for you. Just a thought that nobody seemed to mention.
Click to expand...

What do you mean by that
 
Meaning that you need test bc your gonads don't work and not your pituitary... :) Sorry if I wasn't specific enough and didn't articulate very well.

Invalid Link Removed
 
So you're saying SERMS will not work if you have primary hypogonadism? And if so why is that? SERMS trick your pituitary to release LH, which signals the testes to release testosterone, right? So at what point is the chain broken and serms no longer work?
 
RickyBlobby said:
So you're saying SERMS will not work if you have primary hypogonadism? And if so why is that?
Click to expand...

I am by no means an expert on this... if your leydig cells don't respond to LH or don't/can't produce test for what ever biological reason (maybe they have died off from to much cycling or it was an autoimmune response that killed them, etc.) then no ammount of stimulation of them will produce test.

If however if your low T problem is due to low gonadotropins (secondary hypo) then you Might be able to bring LH up with a serm. Depends on where exactly the problem lies.

Please google this as I really have no idea what I'm talking about :)
 
That makes sense if your test level is 0 and LH and FSH are normal, yeah something is jacked up.

But say LH and FSH are normal, but your total T is 300, due to primary hypo. LH and FSH are obviously doing SOMETHING, just may not have as much sensitivity in the leydig cells. Theoretically an increase in LH would still cause an increase of total T, right, since the leydig cells still have a certain sensitivity?

Its mostly just speculation though lol. One way to find out. Before and after SERM bloodwork :)
 
Let me break down what Jinsun is saying....

If your engine is broke, not matter how much gas is in your tank the car won't run.

What you are arguing for Ricky is when exogenous testosterone shuts down your pituitary, adding a stimulus such as clomid will keep it functioning.

To use the same analogy...if your engine is fine and your gas tank is empty, fill it with gas and the care will run just fine.

There is no point in arguing if your testicles DO NOT respond to LH or FSH(not minimally respond or kinda respond...but DO NOT RESPOND), increasing the amount of them will fix the problem.

Now to address the argument of primary hypogonadism...there isn't one type that defines it all. It's basically a description. Primary means that it's the main issue, and hypogonadism means that they arent working as intended. The two main groups are:

1) Hypogonadotropic hypogonadism : a number of conditions fall here. And no...clomid will not fix all of them.
2) Testicular dysfunction: which is what Jinsun is talking about, but here there is also a range of disorders ranging from congenital to acquired.

So to say ALL primary hypo will not respond to clomid is not entirely correct. There is the possibility of a specific subset of individuals in group 1 may actually respond to clomid. The problem is being able to properly identify this subset which may not be as cut and dry as one would like it to be at times.
 
He speaks
 
RickyBlobby said:
Theoretically an increase in LH would still cause an increase of total T, right, since the leydig cells still have a certain sensitivity?
Click to expand...

No idea... It might or it might not. I think pituitary increases LH, in case of primary, to a high level and usually it's still not enough. Hence the need for trt.

We are all different. My LH is normaly 3.0 -3.5 and my TT is in the upper lab range. Someone else's might be 6 with a lower TT. So the use of serms will affect every individual a bit differently. And this is just one thing, there is pobably a million things that can affect how much T you produce...
 
GoHardOrGoHme said:
Let me break down what Jinsun is saying....

If your engine is broke, not matter how much gas is in your tank the car won't run.

What you are arguing for Ricky is when exogenous testosterone shuts down your pituitary, adding a stimulus such as clomid will keep it functioning.

To use the same analogy...if your engine is fine and your gas tank is empty, fill it with gas and the care will run just fine.

There is no point in arguing if your testicles DO NOT respond to LH or FSH(not minimally respond or kinda respond...but DO NOT RESPOND), increasing the amount of them will fix the problem.

Now to address the argument of primary hypogonadism...there isn't one type that defines it all. It's basically a description. Primary means that it's the main issue, and hypogonadism means that they arent working as intended. The two main groups are:

1) Hypogonadotropic hypogonadism : a number of conditions fall here. And no...clomid will not fix all of them.
2) Testicular dysfunction: which is what Jinsun is talking about, but here there is also a range of disorders ranging from congenital to acquired.

So to say ALL primary hypo will not respond to clomid is not entirely correct. There is the possibility of a specific subset of individuals in group 1 may actually respond to clomid. The problem is being able to properly identify this subset which may not be as cut and dry as one would like it to be at times.
Click to expand...

What he said :) :) :)
 
I’ll tell ya this - if you don’t have any nuts (birth defect, injury/accident), Clomid ain’t gonna help- but the guys who are like that don’t need me telling em!
 
MrKleen73 said:
Here's a question, I have been on TRT for a while and my nuts are like raisinettes... how high a dose do you think might spring the boys back into life a little. Hell just enough that they get a little weight on them. LOL I would actually be quite open to the idea of Torem instead of TRT if I could use it long term for that. Obviously would have to look into it a bit more.
Click to expand...

Just normal dosing. I got a script from my Dermatologist for raloxifene. I pay my local pharmacy here full price. I take 30 mgs most days and some days 60 mgs. Its worth it or me
 
John Smeton said:
friendly doctor and friend or mine I knew for 16 years . Real easy we talk about what i take, and he writes me a script. Its for bone health, raloxifene is the only serm shown in studies to increase bone mineral density in bones
Click to expand...
Oh ok makes sense. Awesome that you have a doctor that is willing to help you, so you can minimize any negatives from cycling.
 
Bump
 
I’m dabbling with the idea of doing 11kt & S23 or Var (or both) using Toremifene for 6-8 weeks and seeing what the bloods show for a female hormone panel. If I decide to do so, I’ll loop you guys in.

Apparently S23 is rather suppressive, but people say it’s terrific for strength on a cut, so this would be a good test of what Torem can/can’t keep up with for me on cycle.
 
Hyde said:
I’m dabbling with the idea of doing 11kt & S23 or Var (or both) using Toremifene for 6-8 weeks and seeing what the bloods show for a female hormone panel. If I decide to do so, I’ll loop you guys in.

Apparently S23 is rather suppressive, but people say it’s terrific for strength on a cut, so this would be a good test of what Torem can/can’t keep up with for me on cycle.
Click to expand...

There is a lot of fake YK-11 on the market--because it is the most costly of the SARMs (even though it's not really a SARM) to produce. I can guarantee you that the YK I have is on point (as is the S23; check reviews here)...and you will also get 600 mg for the same or less money than other companies sell 300 mg for.
 
On cycle now for 10 days. 1, 4 and epiandro at 330, 330, 600 Cyclosome - Cerberus. 10mg tamox ed also for 10 days. Haven't done any bloods yet but morning wood and not just morning but middle of the night wood lol is starting to get annoying. Now I don't know if it's the DHT from epiandro or tamox, but as of now all is ok. Also having intense and vivid dreams. Might be a little bit more anxious.

I know that 10 days on an andro stack is not a lot of time to get suppressed, so I'll report how's it going in another 10 day with bloods.

Also thinking of adding low dose var for SHBG and then upping it as originally planned...
 
Jinsun said:
On cycle now for 10 days. 1, 4 and epiandro at 330, 330, 600 Cyclosome - Cerberus. 10mg tamox ed also for 10 days. Haven't done any bloods yet but morning wood and not just morning but middle of the night wood lol is starting to get annoying. Now I don't know if it's the DHT from epiandro or tamox, but as of now all is ok. Also having intense and vivid dreams. Might be a little bit more anxious.

I know that 10 days on an andro stack is not a lot of time to get suppressed, so I'll report how's it going in another 10 day with bloods.

Also thinking of adding low dose var for SHBG and then upping it as originally planned...
Click to expand...

You really don't need the Tamox unless trying to capitalize on possibility it might help keep testosterone up. Tamox is actually better for gyno than stimulating the HPTA. Not saying it won't work.
 
MrKleen73 said:
You really don't need the Tamox unless trying to capitalize on possibility it might help keep testosterone up. Tamox is actually better for gyno than stimulating the HPTA. Not saying it won't work.
Click to expand...

I'm using it to see if it will help with suppression, as was speculated in this thread. This stack normally suppresses all that use it, so if my LH stays up it's a win for the theory.

Tamox should function very similar to torem. So if others had success with torem this should mean tamox will perform ok. Also lots of people use just tamox for PCT, without clomid, so there's that :)
 
MrKleen73 said:
You really don't need the Tamox unless trying to capitalize on possibility it might help keep testosterone up.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I think that he is experimenting a bit so we have more evidence of this theory. I agree, nolva isn't the best for this task but we should het some useful data..

Edit:... ^ beat me to it.
 
Does anybody experience headaches on tamox? I'm not prone to them at all but on tamox I get them and it's annoying. Don't know if I can live with them through the whole cycle. Just PCT okey, but the whole cycle...
 
Maybe the headaches are from:
-Dehydration
-Stress
-Lack of caffeine
???

If they don't go away maybe try a couple ibuprofen
 
Jinsun said:
I'm using it to see if it will help with suppression, as was speculated in this thread. This stack normally suppresses all that use it, so if my LH stays up it's a win for the theory.

Tamox should function very similar to torem. So if others had success with torem this should mean tamox will perform ok. Also lots of people use just tamox for PCT, without clomid, so there's that :)
Click to expand...
Yes and no,I know they are very similar in structure, but Torem has a much larger effect on the HPTA than tamox. Similar to how Equipoise and DBol are almost identical in structure but the way they behave in the body is completely different.
Jinsun said:
Does anybody experience headaches on tamox? I'm not prone to them at all but on tamox I get them and it's annoying. Don't know if I can live with them through the whole cycle. Just PCT okey, but the whole cycle...
Click to expand...

I don't have that issue but I would try some of Ricky's suggestions, if they don't correct it then maybe it isn't worth testing out for you with tamox.
 
RickyBlobby said:
Maybe the headaches are from:
-Dehydration
-Stress
-Lack of caffeine
???

If they don't go away maybe try a couple ibuprofen
Click to expand...

Nop, none of that. I never have them no matter how much stress, caffeine, etc.

MrKleen73 said:
Yes and no,I know they are very similar in structure, but Torem has a much larger effect on the HPTA than tamox. Similar to how Equipoise and DBol are almost identical in structure but the way they behave in the body is completely different.
Click to expand...

Hm, I see... Tnx for the input.
I presume however that just for proving or disproving this theory tamox should be enough. As Ricky already pointed out. Do you agree?

MrKleen73 said:
I don't have that issue but I would try some of Ricky's suggestions, if they don't correct it then maybe it isn't worth testing out for you with tamox.
Click to expand...

Yep if it wont go away or if it worsens I wont continue with tamox.
 
John Smeton said:
Try zero carb days buddy. Contest prep can fun fun and challenging at the same time.
Click to expand...

Lol try no food or water for 30 hours while you drive yourself to a comp in sweats with the heater on full blast in the summer to make weight. Trust me, I get it!

Mike Arnold said:
There is a lot of fake YK-11 on the market--because it is the most costly of the SARMs (even though it's not really a SARM) to produce. I can guarantee you that the YK I have is on point (as is the S23; check reviews here)...and you will also get 600 mg for the same or less money than other companies sell 300 mg for.
Click to expand...

I’ll be using OL’s 11KT transdermal, not YK11...but I did actually did scoop up some S23 & Torem from you - just arrived today!

Invalid Link Removed
 
MrKleen73 said:
Yes and no,I know they are very similar in structure, but Torem has a much larger effect on the HPTA than tamox. .
Click to expand...

uh, no.

Invalid Link Removed


these guys are interested in tore because it's less toxic than nolva, not because it's more "effective."



EDIT: like I pointed out before, it's still prolly not "good" for the liver, though....





.
 
CatSnake said:
uh, no.

Invalid Link Removed


these guys are interested in tore because it's less toxic than nolva, not because it's more "effective."



EDIT: like I pointed out before, it's still prolly not "good" for the liver, though....





.
Click to expand...

Without me reading the real study and just blindly looking at the excerpt chart included in that article, it basically shows Torem to be practically identical in effects. LH ends up a tad lower than Nolva but FSH is even higher and mean T is only 20 points under, and the lower & upper range for T in subjects is the same.

Ralox however, does appear to come up a bit shorter, but we already knew that - it really shines for gyno control.
 
That's also what I thought, a few pages back in the thread...

My joints are cracking up more and more on this cycle. Today I woke up felling like pinocchio.Also worth of mention is that I can't get a good nights sleep at all. It's like my e2 is crashed. This is interesting as 330mg 4ad and 10mg tamox should kinda take care of that. Oh well, Im going to go check e2 today and see what's going on. If it's in the gutter I'm just going to pinn test and get rid off tamox. Maybe I'll order clomid and see how that goes. But the permanent eye sides really scare me. And torem would take 3 weeks to get here from Pharmac*m.
 
Okey, got my results!

I am totally and uterly suppressed. Tamox didn't do a thing. E2 is below readable, LH is 0.19 and TT is only 30% below my baseline.
 
Jinsun said:
Okey, got my results!

I am totally and uterly suppressed. Tamox didn't do a thing. E2 is below readable, LH is 0.19 and TT is only 30% below my baseline.
Click to expand...

I am flabbergasted that you have no e2 at all on that dhea stack, even with the Nolva that just doesn’t make any sense. I’d drop the Nolva and add a little test like you said and just enjoy the cut.
 
Hyde said:
I am flabbergasted that you have no e2 at all on that dhea stack, even with the Nolva that just doesn’t make any sense. I’d drop the Nolva and add a little test like you said and just enjoy the cut.
Click to expand...

I am also very surprised!!! But it's definetly accurate bc I feel like utter sh*t. I have no idea how people can tolerate this stack without test.

Also it's weird that TT is almost normal but e2 is nill..
 
Jinsun said:
Also it's weird that TT is almost normal but e2 is nill..
Click to expand...

Dooh I'm such an idiot. Forgot I took aromasin last week. Was starting to retain watter so I thought it was e2. Well live and learn.

I have some tamox from another supplier, so will try that out as soon as I start feeling better, just to dismiss the potential of fake stuff. Also will order some clomid, as I need to order some hcg anyway, and try that out.
 
Jinsun said:
Nop, none of that. I never have them no matter how much stress, caffeine, etc.



Hm, I see... Tnx for the input.
I presume however that just for proving or disproving this theory tamox should be enough. As Ricky already pointed out. Do you agree?



Yep if it wont go away or if it worsens I wont continue with tamox.
Click to expand...

CatSnake said:
uh, no.

Invalid Link Removed


these guys are interested in tore because it's less toxic than nolva, not because it's more "effective."



EDIT: like I pointed out before, it's still prolly not "good" for the liver, though....
Click to expand...
Cool, you learn something new every day. I had been told that Torem was actually stronger for PCT than Nolva, good to know. However from those studies either would do the trick, and torem seems to be the healthier option.

Jinsun said:
Dooh I'm such an idiot. Forgot I took aromasin last week. Was starting to retain watter so I thought it was e2. Well live and learn.

I have some tamox from another supplier, so will try that out as soon as I start feeling better, just to dismiss the potential of fake stuff. Also will order some clomid, as I need to order some hcg anyway, and try that out.
Click to expand...

Haha that might have done it. However I don't think you would have crashed your E2 for a whole week from a dose of aromasin. I almost wonder if your tamox isn't just an AI in a SERM bottle.

For what it is worth I wouldn't worry too much about holding water and adjusting a cycle due to it. Slightly elevated estrogen is fine and is not going to hurt you at all on cycle. Might even help with growth and the extra fluids are good for the joints and whatnot. I wouldn't bother taking an AI to drop bloat just if I was having issues with my nips.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Cool, you learn something new every day. I had been told that Torem was actually stronger for PCT than Nolva, good to know. However from those studies either would do the trick, and torem seems to be the healthier option.



Haha that might have done it. However I don't think you would have crashed your E2 for a whole week from a dose of aromasin. I almost wonder if your tamox isn't just an AI in a SERM bottle.

For what it is worth I wouldn't worry too much about holding water and adjusting a cycle due to it. Slightly elevated estrogen is fine and is not going to hurt you at all on cycle. Might even help with growth and the extra fluids are good for the joints and whatnot. I wouldn't bother taking an AI to drop bloat just if I was having issues with my nips.
Click to expand...

25mg spread over a week. That probably helped a lot :) how else do you explain almost normal TT and zero e2...

You might be right regarding tamox - ai...
 
Jinsun said:
Okey, got my results!

I am totally and uterly suppressed. Tamox didn't do a thing. E2 is below readable, LH is 0.19 and TT is only 30% below my baseline.
Click to expand...
That's weird, TT at 70% but like zero estrogen...?\

What is the normal range for LH?

And doesn't FSH play a role in testosterone production? What did it look like?

Thanks for what you are doing, by the way. This is how we learn and grow :)
 
RickyBlobby said:
That's weird, TT at 70% but like zero estrogen...?\

What is the normal range for LH?

And doesn't FSH play a role in testosterone production? What did it look like?

Thanks for what you are doing, by the way. This is how we learn and grow :)
Click to expand...

All in the name of science :)

LH 0.57 - 12.07 and my LH is normaly 3.0 - 3.5. Didnt check fsh :(
 
How many days into the cycle did you get blood work done?
 
Jinsun said:
11 days
Click to expand...
Ok. I know there was a short study posted in this thread where, under clomiphene therapy, they could not get LH to drop even with large amounts of test, estrogen and DHT. Its crazy that yours is tanked on such mild compounds. Almost leads me to believe your nolva was bunk or actually an AI. Normal levels of total T but crashed estrogen...

This crap can never just be simple lol.
 
RickyBlobby said:
This crap can never just be simple lol.
Click to expand...

Yeah tell me about it! Fortunately I have more nolva from a different supplier and it should be gtg.

However shutdown from an andro stack should be normal. 1-test is very suppressive as is test from 4ad. The only thing thats weird is zero e2 and almost normal TT.
 
I did wonder if your serm was really just letro. A bit of exem mixed with daily letro could easily crash you in 10 days
 
Jinsun said:
Yeah tell me about it! Fortunately I have more nolva from a different supplier and it should be gtg.

However shutdown from an andro stack should be normal. 1-test is very suppressive as is test from 4ad. The only thing thats weird is zero e2 and almost normal TT.
Click to expand...

Well if your TT can stay normal throughout on such a low SERM dose I think that would be a big win!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top