Clomid during cycle

I think DHM is similar to DHT, no? Either way I think it’s a viable “test base”. Especially beings Arnold cruises on it year round with primo, adding deca in for blasts. If it wasn’t a good base I doubt he would’ve continued on it that long, as primo doesn’t turn to DHT or estrogen, as far as I know
 
rtmilburn said:
That's doesn't happen with torem.
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That would be nice...as it is my SERM of choice!

All I ever find is conflicting info regarding the affects of Torem on SHBG and IGF-1. It does seem to at least be less detrimental than Nolvadex...

Clomid definitely seems to be lethal to IGF-1 and spiking of SHBG...
 
I've read through the whole thread, currently running a epi/1 andro cycle.
300mg epi, 350mg 1 andro.
No gyno or estro sides.

What would you guys recommend PCT?
Nolva, torem or Clomid.

Was leaning more toward nolva.

I dont seem to be getting suppressed btw.
 
Ricky10 said:
That would be nice...as it is my SERM of choice!

All I ever find is conflicting info regarding the affects of Torem on SHBG and IGF-1. It does seem to at least be less detrimental than Nolvadex...

Clomid definitely seems to be lethal to IGF-1 and spiking of SHBG...
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Clomid actually has very minimal effect of igf-1, but it didn't does spike SHBG pretty good though. Nolvadex tanks igf-1 for sure and raises SHBG. I've yet to read anything about torem doing either to any statistical significance
 
Febus said:
I've read through the whole thread, currently running a epi/1 andro cycle.
300mg epi, 350mg 1 andro.
No gyno or estro sides.

What would you guys recommend PCT?
Nolva, torem or Clomid.

Was leaning more toward nolva.

I dont seem to be getting suppressed btw.
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Torem seems like the best all around SERM. Unless someone has data that I am not aware of.
 
rtmilburn said:
That's doesn't happen with torem.
Click to expand...

yeah, it does

Invalid Link Removed

"Toremifene did not enhance pulsatile or stimulated GH secretion, but decreased IGF-I by 20% in men and women. IGFBP3 was unchanged, whereas while IGFBP1 and SHBG increased in both sexes to a similar extent."

pretty much all SERMs lower IGF1.....


take them if you want during your cycle, but the obvious question is why?

do they enhance the cycle? (not if they reduce IGF1, increase SHBG, etc) are they cost effective? (maybe, is your source cheaper than HCG?) are they side effect free? (no, not for most guys, as that's a common complaint on this message board alone) do they provide something that HCG and a "standard" PCT don't (not from what I've seen). and most importantly: does this actually replace PCT? (from what I've seen-NO. people are just taking the SERM longer....) < just my thoughts. if you FEEL better with it, then maybe you do.... but every drug has side effects, and should have a solid reason as to why you are taking it on cycle.... there's no free ride with an drug/chemical we take, so one needs to take that into account when they're adding risks/side effects to a cycle, IMO.


http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288103-info-serms.html





.


.
 
RickyBlobby said:
Torem seems like the best all around SERM. Unless someone has data that I am not aware of.
Click to expand...
Alright, great.
I'll do a little more research and likely go with it for PCT
 
CatSnake said:
yeah, it does

Invalid Link Removed

"Toremifene did not enhance pulsatile or stimulated GH secretion, but decreased IGF-I by 20% in men and women. IGFBP3 was unchanged, whereas while IGFBP1 and SHBG increased in both sexes to a similar extent."

pretty much all SERMs lower IGF1.....


take them if you want during your cycle, but the obvious question is why? do they enhance the cycle? (not if they reduce IGF1, increase SHBG, etc) are they cost effective? (maybe, as it's prolly cheaper than HCG) are they side effect free? (no, not for most guys, as that's a common complaint on this message board alone) do they provide something that HCG and a "standard" PCT don't (not from what I've seen). < just my thoughts. if you FEEL better with it, then maybe you do.... but every drug has side effects, and should have a solid reason as to why you are taking it on cycle....


http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-cycle-therapy/288103-info-serms.html





.


.
Click to expand...
I said statistically significant didnt I
 
RickyBlobby said:
BAM!

Invalid Link Removed


Main problem

Testosterone replacement therapy inhibits spermatogenesis, representing a problem for hypogonadal men of reproductive age.


Methods

A literature review of PubMed from 1990-2013. Semen analysis and pregnancy outcomes, time to recovery of spermatogenesis, serum and intratesticular testosterone levels were examined.


Results

Exogenous testosterone suppresses intratesticular testosterone production, which is an absolute prerequisite for normal spermatogenesis. Therapies that protect the testis involve human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) therapy or selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs), but may also include low dose hCG with exogenous testosterone. SERMs, such as clomiphene citrate, are effective for maintaining testosterone production and represent a well-tolerated, oral therapy. Routine use of aromatase inhibitors is not recommended based on a lack of long-term data.


Conclusions

Exogenous testosterone supplementation decreases sperm production. Studies of hormonal contraception indicate that most men have a return of normal sperm production within 1 year after discontinuation. Clomiphene citrate is a safe and effective therapy for men who desire to maintain future potential fertility. Although less frequently used in the general population, hCG therapy with or without testosterone supplementation represents an alternative treatment.
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^that study simply compares standalone clomid to different TRT protcols.... not as a adjunct to current ones.
 
rtmilburn said:
But not really when you can get arginine to get a 30% increase.
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I dunno about that.....

Besides, when you need to add more compounds to treat more side effects, then I think there are some big questions you need to ask about why your cycle is being managed that way.
 
CatSnake said:
I dunno about that.....

Besides, when you need to add more compounds to treat more side effects, then I think there are some big questions you need to ask about why your cycle is being managed that way.
Click to expand...
No my point is there is no need as 20% is nothing!!!!
 
rtmilburn said:
No my point is there is no need as 20% is nothing!!!!
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I agree with this. I mean peptides increase IGF by like, 1,000% and there is no magic muscle building effect. SO a 20% decrease to me would be insignificant.

It has been shown inn studies that you don't regain all of your HTPA function after a cycle. The longer you are on, the longer your system "sleeps", the less "awake" it will be when it comes back on line.That said, theoretically, if your system never goes to sleep, then after cycle it should still be at 100%.

Plus, no one likes the feeling of having low T for 2-3 solid weeks waiting for their HTPA to come back online. That can be miserable, so why chance going through that if it can be avoided.
 
RickyBlobby said:
I agree with this. I mean peptides increase IGF by like, 1,000% and there is no magic muscle building effect. SO a 20% decrease to me would be insignificant.
Click to expand...

Not really :) 60 mcg/kg of cjc1295dac (the sweet spot for cjc) will raise your IGF1 to about 300 ng/dl from 150 ng/dl baseline. 60 mcg/kg for me is 5.4 mg. Take that every 5 days and I'm at app. 350 ng/dl the whole time. This costs app 300€ a month. It will produce results, but it's nowhere near cheap and nowhere near 1000% :D

To combat a 20% reduction of IGF1 from a serm you would need to take a small amount of cjc per week. Like 20 mcg/kg would be plenty. Alternative is MK677 at 10 mg ed, but MK comes with a large hunger increase - not a problem if you are on a bulk, but I can't stand it on a cut. All of this is based on the presumption that peptides would work and/or excrete/produce the same amount of GH and IGF1 in an environment that contains a serm.

Some aas also increase IGF by them self. Like I know Ostarine increases it quite a lot, so depending on what your cycle is, the IGF thing might be a moot point.

RickyBlobby said:
It has been shown inn studies that you don't regain all of your HTPA function after a cycle. The longer you are on, the longer your system "sleeps", the less "awake" it will be when it comes back on line.That said, theoretically, if your system never goes to sleep, then after cycle it should still be at 100%.
Click to expand...

I would be very interested in this studies. How "awake" doest the pituitary have to be to minimise this? 50%, 30%, 70%??
 
Jinsun said:
Not really :) 60 mcg/kg of cjc1295dac (the sweet spot for cjc) will raise your IGF1 to about 300 ng/dl from 150 ng/dl baseline. 60 mcg/kg for me is 5.4 mg. Take that every 5 days and I'm at app. 350 ng/dl the whole time. This costs app 300€ a month. It will produce results, but it's nowhere near cheap and nowhere near 1000% :D
Click to expand...

When I was taking 100mcg cjc no dac and 100mcg GHRP-2, my GH level was 32 out of a range of 1-4. So a 1,000% increase in GH. I apologize for insinuating the effect on IGF was concurrent with GH. But even at those GH levels, I noticed no profound changes to my physique.
 
rtmilburn said:
By this im mean, a temporary 20% decrease wont change gains at all, especially with something like anavar. Anavar will more than make up for 20% reductions in whats it increases igf and hgh by
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The mean age of men in the study was 65 and mean weight/BMI isn't given. Insulin sensitivity strongly affects IGF-1 production.
 
rtmilburn said:
By this im mean, a temporary 20% decrease wont change gains at all, especially with something like anavar. Anavar will more than make up for 20% reductions in whats it increases igf and hgh by
Click to expand...

All androgens increase IGF-1, substantially.
 
rtmilburn said:
Because hcg makes the problem worse and whatever hcg you buy I can guarantee it's fake. Through real pharmaceutical routes it's hard to get hcg, with any potency, it's just so unstable.
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I thought HCG was supposed to keep test high by acting as LH till PCT, then SERMs will bump your LH and FSH back to normal. Not only that, but HCG is used in a good ‘restart’ program (along with Clomid), so I don’t see how it’ll make things worse.

Also, couldn’t you make the same argument for SERMs on the market being fake, or anything else for that matter?

Not trying to start a war FYI, just discussing different points of view.
 
Peanutbutterj said:
I thought HCG was supposed to keep test high by acting as LH till PCT, then SERMs will bump your LH and FSH back to normal. Not only that, but HCG is used in a good ‘restart’ program (along with Clomid), so I don’t see how it’ll make things worse.

Also, couldn’t you make the same argument for SERMs on the market being fake, or anything else for that matter?

Not trying to start a war FYI, just discussing different points of view.
Click to expand...

Mate what rtmilburn was trying to say is that hcg suppresses your pituitary - it shuts down LH production. This is contrary to what we are proposing in this thread.
 
I’m on the last week of a 8 week Clomid cycle right now and next time I do this I’ll do Winny the first 4 weeks, I’ll post bloods before and after if you guys want.
 
Peanutbutterj said:
I thought HCG was supposed to keep test high by acting as LH till PCT, then SERMs will bump your LH and FSH back to normal. Not only that, but HCG is used in a good ‘restart’ program (along with Clomid), so I don’t see how it’ll make things worse.

Also, couldn’t you make the same argument for SERMs on the market being fake, or anything else for that matter?

Not trying to start a war FYI, just discussing different points of view.
Click to expand...
HCG does not stimulate your pituitary gland, which is the core organ that increases test production. So when you stop HCG, your testosterone production will stop much more quickly than your pituitary gland can wake up properly. Which is why I recommend overlapping HCG with a SERM by at least 2-3 weeks.
 
RickyBlobby said:
HCG does not stimulate your pituitary gland, which is the core organ that increases test production. So when you stop HCG, your testosterone production will stop much more quickly than your pituitary gland can wake up properly. Which is why I recommend overlapping HCG with a SERM by at least 2-3 weeks.
Click to expand...

I was also under the impression that HCG should be used with Clomid (see my comment about the restart).

Why then do people run HCG during their test cycle or to start PCT? You all make it seem like HCG is the enemy.

I’m really trying to get educated, not flaming/trolling.
 
RickyBlobby said:
HCG does not stimulate your pituitary gland, which is the core organ that increases test production. So when you stop HCG, your testosterone production will stop much more quickly than your pituitary gland can wake up properly. Which is why I recommend overlapping HCG with a SERM by at least 2-3 weeks.
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Lyding cell desensitization! Hcg is a no go.
 
rtmilburn said:
Lyding cell desensitization! Hcg is a no go.
Click to expand...

I thought that was a myth and that studies proved that - if I’m not mistaken the only study to show desensitization was in rats.

If it’s a no-go why is it recommended to start PCT or by Dr’s to restart testosterone production?

The only thing I was sure was a no-go was HCGenerate lol
 
hCG causes a very high level of intra-testiclular aromatization that an AI is incapable of suppressing. Also it does not allow for a natural diurnal variation of LH/ FSH, which greatly contributes to the upregulation of the aforementioned intra-testicular aromatase enzyme.

hCG is really only superior to SERMs for people with damaged or non-functioning pituitary glands.
 
The Express 42 said:
Yeah if you’re taking outrageous doses for an extended period of time. 500-1000 per week for 16-20 weeks is fine.
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Nope it happens quite fast even at moderate doses. Plus any hcg you guys find is fake. When I work at a pharmacy we couldn't source good hcg. Everything was way too low potency for us to sell. So if a real pharmacy could not get real hcg with potency just image what you get online
 
Peanutbutterj said:
I thought that was a myth and that studies proved that - if I’m not mistaken the only study to show desensitization was in rats.

If it’s a no-go why is it recommended to start PCT or by Dr’s to restart testosterone production?

The only thing I was sure was a no-go was HCGenerate lol
Click to expand...

It's used either throughout the whole cycle or at the end of it before pct starts. And it's used to bring back to life your testies so when pct starts the only. thing that needs to restart is your pituitary. As for on cycle use of hcg that's for making shure your lyding cells don't "die off". This is a big concern if doing multiple cycles. If your lyding cells reduce in number you eventually wont be producing much test no matter how much LH you pituitary will produce.

Also all of this is for cycles that don't include serm's obviously...
 
rtmilburn said:
Nope it happens quite fast even at moderate doses. Plus any hcg you guys find is fake. When I work at a pharmacy we could source hcg. Everything was way too low potency for us to sell. So if a real pharmacy could not get real hcg with potency just image what you get online
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I can vouch for Ovidac brand, which is manufactured by Bayer India, and is easily obtainable at places selling safe meds 4 all.
 
Spurfy said:
hCG causes a very high level of intra-testiclular aromatization that an AI is incapable of suppressing. Also it does not allow for a natural diurnal variation of LH/ FSH, which greatly contributes to the upregulation of the aforementioned intra-testicular aromatase enzyme.

hCG is really only superior to SERMs for people with damaged or non-functioning pituitary glands.
Click to expand...
Maybe this is why I aromatize when I take hcg. Even on my anastrozole and trt protocol. I get hcg with my trt but I can't use it.
 
Spurfy said:
hCG causes a very high level of intra-testiclular aromatization that an AI is incapable of suppressing. Also it does not allow for a natural diurnal variation of LH/ FSH, which greatly contributes to the upregulation of the aforementioned intra-testicular aromatase enzyme.

hCG is really only superior to SERMs for people with damaged or non-functioning pituitary glands.
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Thanks for the knowledge mate
 
81dcs said:
Maybe this is why I aromatize when I take hcg. Even on my anastrozole and trt protocol. I get hcg with my trt but I can't use it.
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Same. Even 250 iu E3D had my E2 at 70, which is odd since my normal baseline E2 tends to be chronically low even with 700 total T, but I seem to convert T to DHT very quickly so that would explain this.
 
Dthcore said:
Clomid only cycle?
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Yes, I like it as a little boost here and there, it gets me from mid 400 to mid 900. Long story short, I used to be on trt but managed to successfully restart myself and haven’t used any real gear since, this have been the way I boost myself since I got off. If I can keep myself from shutting down with Clomid on gear I’m down to use again.
 
BBiceps said:
Yes, I like it as a little boost here and there, it gets me from mid 400 to mid 900. Long story short, I used to be on trt but managed to successfully restart myself and haven’t used any real gear since, this have been the way I boost myself since I got off. If I can keep myself from shutting down with Clomid on gear I’m down to use again.
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So you can use it as a test booster? If so im about to do so.
 
Dthcore said:
So you can use it as a test booster? If so im about to do so.
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I kind of do and I love Clomid and it came as a surprise to me that some people don’t like it, I get a little stronger and leaner with it, to me it’s great. I get mine from my Dr and always do bloods before and after.
 
BBiceps said:
I kind of do and I love Clomid and it came as a surprise to me that some people don’t like it, I get a little stronger and leaner with it, to me it’s great. I get mine from my Dr and always do bloods before and after.
Click to expand...

What dose do you run?
 
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