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Clomid during cycle

RickyBlobby said:
I wouldn't include clomid in there for preventing gyno. But you are correct if the receptors are occupied estrogen cannot bind to them. Whether on cycle or PCT.

Edit: I misread your question. Yes you can get gyno if your estrogen level exceeds the saturation level of the SERM. You would need to go up on SERM up to saturation dose as needed if symptoms arise.
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Why not clomid? I thought there were studies that show it is an effective antagonist in the breast tissue?
 
Saturation dose is standard, clinically prescribed dose, for each SERM.

All SERMs except raloxifene have a 5 day half life, this means full-receptor saturation is reached rapidly with daily dosing. This is also why raloxifene has a "lag" of a week or two when it comes to treating gyno, where results start becoming notable. While it's the most specific for ER-a in breast tissue, it takes a while for saturation to occur due to the shorter half-life than other SERMs.
 
210LBS said:
Why not clomid? I thought there were studies that show it is an effective antagonist in the breast tissue?
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It has *much* weaker binding affinity for ER-a in breast tissue than tamoxifen, toremifene, or ralxoifene, and as such cannot be guaranteed to treat or prevent gyno.
 
Spurfy said:
It has *much* weaker binding affinity for ER-a in breast tissue than tamoxifen, toremifene, or ralxoifene, and as such cannot be guaranteed to treat or prevent gyno.
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And what about post cycle if E2 is out of range? What do you run to control it?
 
Continue running your serm through pct... I’m assuming if you eventually want to come off the serm- you would taper dose down.
 
kl1234 said:
Continue running your serm through pct... I’m assuming if you eventually want to come off the serm- you would taper dose down.
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So if you're on a SERM then you cannot have estrogen circulating? I thought you just said the SERM will prevent binding but the AI will prevent conversion? Therefore you can run a SERM but still have high estrogen circulating..
 
Also, Spurfy does not recommend a PCT, so I'm not sure where you got the idea of running a SERM in PCT.
 
You asked about post cycle... not I. As far as I know... if you are running said serm while on- you would continue running the serm after cycle as well. That’s why I said- if you eventually wanted to come off you serm- you would taper down. As far as spurfy feels about coming off the serm- you will have to ask him.
 
kl1234 said:
You asked about post cycle... not I. As far as I know... if you are running said serm while on- you would continue running the serm after cycle as well. That’s why I said- if you eventually wanted to come off you serm- you would taper down. As far as spurfy feels about coming off the serm- you will have to ask him.
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I asked how you are going to get elevated estrogen under control in PCT or on cycle. A SERM isn't going to do it. Spurfy used to advocate using an AI in PCT to obliterate estrogen and now he advocates throwing the AI away. If that's the case I'm just curious how you're supposed to control high estrogen.
 
Spurfy said:
I have already covered this ad nauseum. You do not need an AI when you're using a SERM and I have explained the reasons numerous times.
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This is just absolutely wrong. A SERM can prevent estrogen binding in your tits but your E can still be though the roof. If you’re prone to high E then you can try this protocol but do not ditch your AI. Guarantee if you get bloods on an aromatizing cycle while only running a serm your E will be high.
 
I believe that if you reach saturation with your SERM- your circulating E2 will not be able to bind to “anything”... therefore making it useless.
 
kl1234 said:
I believe that if you reach saturation with your SERM- your circulating E2 will not be able to bind to “anything”... therefore making it useless.
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So if E2 cannot bind to anything it is useless? So what about erectile dysfunction, enlarged prostate, increased body fat, lethargy, etc.? There is more reason to control high estrogen levels than just gyno.
 
The Express 42 said:
This is just absolutely wrong. A SERM can prevent estrogen binding in your tits but your E can still be though the roof. If you’re prone to high E then you can try this protocol but do not ditch your AI. Guarantee if you get bloods on an aromatizing cycle while only running a serm your E will be high.
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Do you understand why high E2 is bad?

It's because that E2 binds to ER-a and ER-b, and then elicits negative effects which are due *exclusively* to its binding ER-a.

What do you think happens when a SERM is occupying essentially every ER-a receptor?

If you guessed "nothing", you're right! You win... KNOWLEDGE!

Thanks for playing Pharmacology 101, you've been a great contestant!
 
210LBS said:
So if E2 cannot bind to anything it is useless? So what about erectile dysfunction, enlarged prostate, increased body fat, lethargy, etc.? There is more reason to control high estrogen levels than just gyno.
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How can estrogen do *anything* if it literally has nowhere to go?

Ponder this, grasshopper.
 
kl1234 said:
I believe that if you reach saturation with your SERM- your circulating E2 will not be able to bind to “anything”... therefore making it useless.
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This. You get it!

Why is this so hard to understand? It's really, *really* basic pharmacology. I thought all you bodybuilders were drug experts? This concept (technically called "target receptor saturation binding of antagonst ligands") I've been trying to explain is *funadmental* to *all* pharmacology! This is literally into-level pharmacology.
 
Spurfy said:
How can estrogen do *anything* if it literally has nowhere to go?

Ponder this, grasshopper.
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So you're going to stay on a SERM for the rest of your life? You still didn't answer the question... which is AFTER the cycle when you are no longer on a SERM.
 
It's just funny hearing this crap from the guy who runs exemestane at 25mgs daily after his cycle but he had to lie to everyone to fit his narrative. He doesn't even take his own advice. It's the people who buy this BS that I feel bad for.
 
210LBS said:
So you're going to stay on a SERM for the rest of your life? You still didn't answer the question... which is AFTER the cycle when you are no longer on a SERM.
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SERM is continued for 4 weeks after last AAS administration. I've said this at least five times.
 
Spurfy said:
SERM is continued for 4 weeks after last AAS administration. I've said this at least five times.
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And you'll guarantee that'll control estrogen? That hilarious from the guy who said you have to run an AI for 4 weeks AFTER your PCT (SERM + AI).
 
210LBS said:
It's just funny hearing this crap from the guy who runs exemestane at 25mgs daily after his cycle but he had to lie to everyone to fit his narrative. He doesn't even take his own advice. It's the people who buy this BS that I feel bad for.
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I've never run exemestane at more than 50 mg a week, ever. I have suggested that people in PCT run a *very low dose* of exemestane if they're running clomid in PCT, but not torem.

You just made my ignore list.
 
Spurfy said:
I've never run exemestane at more than 50 mg a week, ever. I have suggested that people in PCT run a *very low dose* of exemestane if they're running clomid in PCT, but not torem.

You just made my ignore list.
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Yeah OK.... whatever...

Spurfy said:
This is the PCT I'm on right now, after stopping 18 months of "TRT": 21 days of clomid @ 12.5 mg ED w/ 25 mg of exemestane ED, followed by 25 mg of exemestane ED (I'm on week 5 total, been off clomid for a few weeks and feeling great). I'll continue the exemestane for another 2-3 weeks then taper off. I'm also taking ashwaganda extract to increase natural testosterone production and to control cortisol and will shortly be adding fenugreek for libido -- I will continue the herbs until August and then get bloods. I expect my T levels to be around 700, which is my normal level
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210LBS said:
And you'll guarantee that'll control estrogen? That hilarious from the guy who said you have to run an AI for 4 weeks AFTER your PCT (SERM + AI).
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Estradiol has a serum half-life of 30ish hours, it will fall in line with the reduction in testosterone levels over time.
 
210LBS said:
Yeah OK.... whatever...
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Hey, you found a typo. Great detective work! It should have said 2.5 mg exemestane.

12.5 mg exemestane in a single dose crushes my E2. At 25 mg/day I would be bedridden. The only time I've run higher doses of exemestane is on T/DBol cycles, and that was 12.5 EOD.

And I was running a pct after very long term TRT with no hCG or SERM during that time. The low-dose exemestane was primarily to lower SHBG, which rises with clomid use, which is consistently already in the high 40s for me. This happens to be another reason I run Var year round -- lowers SHBG.

I chose clomid over torem because it's stronger at stimulating the HPG-axis.

Now you know all about my issues with SHBG. Great job.
 
Spurfy said:
Hey, you found a typo. Great detective work! It should have said 2.5 mg exemestane.

12.5 mg exemestane in a single dose crushes my E2. At 25 mg/day I would be bedridden. The only time I've run higher doses of exemestane is on T/DBol cycles, and that was 12.5 EOD.

And I was running a pct after very long term TRT with no hCG or SERM during that time. The low-dose exemestane was primarily to lower SHBG, which rises with clomid use, which is consistently already in the high 40s for me. This happens to be another reason I run Var year round -- lowers SHBG.

I chose clomid over torem because it's stronger at stimulating the HPG-axis.

Now you know all about my issues with SHBG. Great job.
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It's just one lie after another with you... it was no typo. You bragged about the importance of AI's over SERM. And you recommended running the AI 4 weeks AFTER you finish one finishes their SERM. You were the one recommending large doses of AI in PCT to destroy estrogen because you said E2 is so incredibly suppressive. You changed your entire protocol pretty quick... I was just curious as to why.
 
Hey guys, I'm enjoying this just as much as the next guy, but can we please try to keep it on topic. I think this could be a pretty significant thread if we can stick to feedback related posts.
 
RickyBlobby said:
Hey guys, I'm enjoying this just as much as the next guy, but can we please try to keep it on topic. I think this could be a pretty significant thread if we can stick to feedback related posts.
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It's not entirely off topic though. The question is whether or not a SERM can completely replace an AI. I asked whether or not an AI would serve a purpose in or out of a cycle any more under this protocol. Is Spurfy saying that IF you run a SERM on cycle you will never need an AI, but if you don't run a SERM on cycle then you need to run an AI for 8-10 weeks post cycle? And like I said, the only reason I ask is because it seems like he is insinuating that you do not need an AI - and he used to be one of the biggest advocates of using an AI.
 
I guess, lol. The bickering is kind of off-putting though. Other than that yeah great learning experience.

Edit; maybe he learned about new research proving his old theory invalid. The SERM argument makes sense to me based on personal experience and studies he has provided. I will still always have an AI on hand just in case. My body tends to react differently to most things.
 
RickyBlobby said:
The bickering is kind of off-putting though.
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The only one bickering is Spurfy. Guy's incapable of having discussion without always being on the offensive while pointing out his major in pharmacology, teaching, writing, training, curing of cancer and whatever other irrelevant claims he thinks validates his posts.
 
He can be abrasive lol
 
Spurfy said:
Do you understand why high E2 is bad?

It's because that E2 binds to ER-a and ER-b, and then elicits negative effects which are due *exclusively* to its binding ER-a.

What do you think happens when a SERM is occupying essentially every ER-a receptor?

If you guessed "nothing", you're right! You win... KNOWLEDGE!

Thanks for playing Pharmacology 101, you've been a great contestant!
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There are other side effects of high E besides gyno. I took nolva all last cycle and E was still high. Show me blood work while only on a serm or a study. You can’t. KNOWLEDGE! have fun looking awful while full of water and having a limp d1ck on cycle with only your serm haha
 
The Express 42 said:
There are other side effects of high E besides gyno. I took nolva all last cycle and E was still high. Show me blood work while only on a serm or a study. You can’t. KNOWLEDGE! have fun looking awful while full of water and having a limp d1ck on cycle with only your serm haha
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The dick is beautiful no matter the state its in!!! HOW DARE YOU!?!?!

Lmfao
 
Mine is not impressive at all when flaacid lol
 
Probably a good thing lol
 
Spurfy said:
Why? If you're not shutdown then you don't need a high dose to start your PCT. The whole point of SERM on-cycle is that you don't shutdown.

The 30 mg/day for 4-weeks PCT is just to ensure everything has cleared your system while having the SERM on-board. There's no such thing as "E2 rebound" from a SERM. Only type II AIs cause E2 rebound.
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If your not shutdown then you would not need pct at all. The problem is most ppl don't get bloodwork so they have no clue if it worked or not. I didn't read the whole thread but is any1 going to get bloodwork and actually post it. Pre and post cycle?
 
Smont said:
If your not shutdown then you would not need pct at all. The problem is most ppl don't get bloodwork so they have no clue if it worked or not. I didn't read the whole thread but is any1 going to get bloodwork and actually post it. Pre and post cycle?
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I got bloodwork on cycle and my test level was at 450. 50mg dbol and 400mg primo and only 25mg clomid. I could've bumped it up to 50 and it would have been even higher.

Spurfy checked his more than once and LH and FSH were in range during cycle.

Several reported minimal ball shrinkage, which means the pituitary was putting out FSH and LH.

It's pretty obvious.
 
RickyBlobby said:
I got bloodwork on cycle and my test level was at 450. 50mg dbol and 400mg primo and only 25mg clomid. I could've bumped it up to 50 and it would have been even higher.

Spurfy checked his more than once and LH and FSH were in range during cycle.

Several reported minimal ball shrinkage, which means the pituitary was putting out FSH and LH.

It's pretty obvious.
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Does anyone actually have the bloodwork to post? No disrespect to any1 but it's hard to take some random persons word that you never met before.
So many ppl on this forum say they got bloodwork done and say what there numbers were but never actually show the paperwork.
 
Smont said:
Does anyone actually have the bloodwork to post? No disrespect to any1 but it's hard to take some random persons word that you never met before.
So many ppl on this forum say they got bloodwork done and say what there numbers were but never actually show the paperwork.
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We're trying to do *you* a favor based on things we've already done in a demonstrably successful way.

I have bloodwork I could post, but honestly, from my point of view, if a person is too stubborn, dense, or stupid, to even try and understand why SERMs are successful at preventing on-cycle shutdown, despite published studies *and* user reports from this forum, then f_ck them. They can stay stupid.
 
Great thread!

I've been thinking of the same thing lately... but as far as I understand it, ppl don't use serms on cycle bc it's one thing to be on it 4 weeks and completely another to be on it 16 weeks. Serms have lot's of sides, are toxic to the liver, etc. Don't know much about torem's safety, if it's really as safe as has been speculated in this thread, but I don't think that I would want to take nolva for 16 weeks, or clomid for that matter. I think that's why the general consensus is to just use hcg... But if it's really safe to take torem on cycle and have test levels at a degree that you maybe don't need a test base, then small cycles; like 400mg primo, with/or just a small medium amount of orals would be great. I've just ordered primo to help me cut, I don't know, I might try running some nolva with it. The thing is I wanted to run it at 200mg (just to help preserve muscle) and see if it doesn't cause to much suppression, but if a serm could help keep lethargy and libido up then I might go 400 and post some bloods as I will be doing them either whay. I'm interested at how much primo suppresses anyway...

If this works, great, but the price of running torem for 16 weeks is app 250€, add primo at 400mg and maybe some var, proviron,... and you are at 600€. And that's without cycle support stuff, Ai's (not that you would need to use them)...etc.

Might be beneficial to lipids though, to take torem or tamox on cycle...
 
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