Clen’s Road to a 315 Bench, Msten DMZ log

Hyde said:
If you’re already on ralox and you’re not on anything that aromatizes your gyno is definitely going to be safe - running AI at that point is just going to hurt cholesterol, joints, & libido. Dropping it is probably for the best. Rolls look good!
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Yup that’s why I dropped it! Realized I didn’t need it though it’s supposedly good to use before running Ralox.
 
Jeremyk1 said:
Before? Why’s that? I’ve heard a lot of people will take some AI after SERMs because a SERM can increase estrogen.
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I’m running Ralox for the next 6 ish months because that’s what the studies show has worked for removing pubertal gyno. I’ll take it after I back off the Ralox later on down the road

The before part is because it supposedly (no science to back this up) allows the Ralox to work better when you bottom out your estrogen beforehand
 
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ChocolateClen said:
I’m running Ralox for the next 6 ish months because that’s what the studies show has worked for removing pubertal gyno. I’ll take it after I back off the Ralox later on down the road

The before part is because it supposedly (no science to back this up) allows the Ralox to work better when you bottom out your estrogen beforehand
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Nailed it.

Jeremyk1 said:
Before? Why’s that? I’ve heard a lot of people will take some AI after SERMs because a SERM can increase estrogen.
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You have it half right. You probably do want to use a bit of AI coming off a SERM because your previously blocked chest estro receptors are now going to be fair game for whatever estrogen is currently circulating to bind to, and lowering that some can help balance the transition safer. But a SERM does not raise estrogen or act as traditional estrogen, and won’t meaningfully affect circulating estradiol levels.
 
Thinking about cutting the run 2 weeks short and stopping next Monday. Just feeling tired and lethargic. Beard loss is concerning too but I’m not sure if that’s because the high DHT levels from the Msten are causing my beard to shed in favor of growing thicker etc. I know DHT is the contributor to facial hair but I don’t know if it’ll cause shedding at first if there’s a lot of it. I know when you use DHT blocking shampoo and rogaine you may get some shedding while the old hair falls out and gets replaced with better hairs.

Just worried about liver and kidney health. Pee is getting darker and darker, doesn’t really mix anymore in the toilet, just sinks to the bottom. I don’t want to stop though, seeing such awesome gains but never big enough. Thoughts guys? Should I up my Tudca? Increase the Arimacare pro? Just go to PCT after 4 weeks like a normal cycle of this stuff?
 
Today’s Recap:
Sleep: 3hr 45 min with 4hr 26 in bed
Quality: 47%

Workout:

Core:
Modified Crunches: 2x20
Iso Abs 2x35s

Power Cleans
42.5x4
50x3
57.5x3
65x2
68.5x1
70x1

Power Squats
115lbs @10% fatigue
(best, reps)
515x5
484x6
489x8

Bench Press:
130x5
165x5
190x5
215x3
225x3
230x1
240x1

Standing DB Shoulder Press
40lbs x2 for 12
(bothered shoulder so I stopped early and didn’t go up in weight)

Swiss Ball crunches
3x21

Close Grip Bench Press
135x12
145x12
155x12

Good Mornings
65x8
65x8
65x8

Pull-ups
3xAMRAP or until 30 total reps, 15 max for first set.

Slide board Fallouts
2x6x10:05

Close Grip Pulldowns
165x3x12

Single Arm Tricep pushdowns
3x60lbs x12, 10, 10

Concentration Curls
2x25lbs x12, 10, 12

DB kickbacks
10lbs x 8/side

Workout was 2 separate ones. First one ended at the normal Bench and the other started roughly 4 hours later after I got back from work and could finish it.
 
If you’re drinking a gallon a day minimum and TUDCA is already 750-1,000mg and NAC 1,200-2,000mg daily then you probably should shut it down. If you just need to add a liter of water and some NAC, I would do that.

Msten also really messed with my electrolytes - getting in enough sodium and potassium was very important to feel decent & prevent cramping.
 
Hyde said:
If you’re drinking a gallon a day minimum and TUDCA is already 750-1,000mg and NAC 1,200-2,000mg daily then you probably should shut it down. If you just need to add a liter of water and some NAC, I would do that.

Msten also really messed with my electrolytes - getting in enough sodium and potassium was very important to feel decent & prevent cramping.
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I’m actually not taking NAC unless it’s in the Arimacare pro. Will up my water intake significantly, I’ve been drinking more but I guess not enough. I’ll throw in a daily Gatorade as well since it has both Na and K so it should keep stuff balanced out.

I have a really really hard time detecting changes in my body as well, like some people get hit with a lot of side effects whereas I don’t feel most of them. First time I’ve ever felt lethargic running anything but I also assume that’s because I don’t have a test base this time around too.
 
After looking at the Arimacare pro, NAC was included in it at 750mg a day. Gonna keep a close watch on my eyes as well, I don’t want to call the run off after 4 weeks as I’m loving the results and the pumps I’m getting in the gym, but I can’t train if I’m dead either. I’ll see what I look like when Friday rolls around. If I start to feel bad or anything like that I’ll just start up my PCT early and run clomid at 50/50/25/25. Don’t think I’ll need nolva since I have the Ralox.

30mg a day was a ballsy move, maybe if I had kept it at 20mg I’d be able to do 6 weeks. On the bright side I still have 1 bottle left that’s unopened! Might use it as a kicker for something bigger later on down the road.

For now I’m gonna up my TUDCA and water intake and see how much that helps.
 
Forgot to mention that’s why weight was 198 yesterday. Scale at the other gym is def broken because it has me at 201 which would be a lot for 1 day
 
Holy fork do my knees hurt today guys. Def some Quadricep tendonitis trying to take hold, will fix that with lots of foam rolling and extra stretching.
 
NAC can often be gotten in 600mg caps. Adding 2 of those would be ideal. Walmart may sell it but if not Amazon could be there in a week. Swanson is cheapest on sales but they take forever to ship, like 2 weeks to get stuff.
 
Hyde said:
NAC can often be gotten in 600mg caps. Adding 2 of those would be ideal. Walmart may sell it but if not Amazon could be there in a week. Swanson is cheapest on sales but they take forever to ship, like 2 weeks to get stuff.
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Ordered some, it’ll be here in 3 days. I think I found a local source for test so I may actually hold off on the last 2 weeks and use it as a kicker for a test cycle. Way more expensive up here than I remember though. 85 for a vial.
 
ChocolateClen said:
Ordered some, it’ll be here in 3 days. I think I found a local source for test so I may actually hold off on the last 2 weeks and use it as a kicker for a test cycle. Way more expensive up here than I remember though. 85 for a vial.
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Bro I feel like I’ve never seen it higher than 45 85 is Trest pricing lol

NAC will be good to run through PCT as a detox anyway.
 
Today’s Recap:
Sleep: 2hr 39 min with 3hr 50 min in bed
Quality: 40%
Weight: 201 today (?)

No lifting today, I was gonna get a squirm sesh in but as I was driving to the gym the work crew mowing the median in the highway kicked up a massive rock (or debris) and put a huge dent in my car. Needless to say I’m glad it hit the door, any higher and it would have gone through the windshield. So fml that’s gonna be a pain to fix. Also dropped a bar on my foot today at work, f***kers hurt even from hip height.

Lethargy is getting worse, woke up and I just didn’t want to move, felt like I had ankle weights on all day. Eating less overall too. No yellowing of my eyes though. If I cut it short at the end of this week the pct will be as follows:
Arimacare Pro: 8caps/day till used
TUDCA:3-4 Caps a day till used
Clomid: 50/50/25/25
Ralox: 60mg Ed for a loooong time

Ralox is apparently better than nolva for pct since it doesn’t have igf 1 issues like nolva does.

Bp is still elevated though not crazy heigh.


Love and hate this run already. Hoping I come out keeping most of it along with the ability to eat less and feel full.
 
Sorry to hear about the car and foot. Why so little time in bed? Surely you can do better than under 4 hours?
 
As far as I know, ralox alone for PCT would not suffice, poor HPTA stimulation -but in combination with clomid its a good addition.
 
hairygrandpa said:
As far as I know, ralox alone for PCT would not suffice, poor HPTA stimulation -but in combination with clomid its a good addition.
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I read online that it’s not as good as nolva, but it doesn’t lower IGF 1 like nolva does so it’s a better choice to stack with clomid. Should I run nolva as well? I think that’s overkill since I’d be running Ralox, nolva and clomid all at once but you know a lot more than I do about this stuff.
 
ChocolateClen said:
I read online that it’s not as good as nolva, but it doesn’t lower IGF 1 like nolva does so it’s a better choice to stack with clomid. Should I run nolva as well? I think that’s overkill since I’d be running Ralox, nolva and clomid all at once but you know a lot more than I do about this stuff.
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Nah, I don't know more. I'm always on. Clomid and Ralox is enough. I would do clomid 50/50/50/25/25. Last two weeks I would take clomid eod at 25 -instead of ed. Blood labs has shown that eod = more effective.
 
hairygrandpa said:
Nah, I don't know more. I'm always on. Clomid and Ralox is enough. I would do clomid 50/50/50/25/25. Last two weeks I would take clomid eod at 25 -instead of ed. Blood labs has shown that eod = more effective.
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Sounds like a plan! Didn’t know about the eod part for the clomid
 
No workout today guys, client had a seizure at work and I had to stay an extra hour so I didn’t get to lift. Everything is all good though. Those are scary, I haven’t had to deal with one before and I felt like a deer in headlights till my boss took over. I’ll lift tomorrow morning
 
ChocolateClen said:
Sleep longer, I always wake up around the 4 hour mark regardless.
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You should consider looking for ways to increase that. 1 hour even is a 25% increase, and that means gains over years. Better appetite control, better fat burning, better muscle & joint repair.

hairygrandpa said:
As far as I know, ralox alone for PCT would not suffice, poor HPTA stimulation -but in combination with clomid its a good addition.
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Agreed

hairygrandpa said:
Nah, I don't know more. I'm always on. Clomid and Ralox is enough. I would do clomid 50/50/50/25/25. Last two weeks I would take clomid eod at 25 -instead of ed. Blood labs has shown that eod = more effective.
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This is all true, except as someone still doing this 2-3x a year I only do 50mg week one. Then a couple weeks of 25, then 2-3 weeks of eod based on studies.
 
Hyde said:
You should consider looking for ways to increase that. 1 hour even is a 25% increase, and that means gains over years. Better appetite control, better fat burning, better muscle & joint repair.



Agreed



This is all true, except as someone still doing this 2-3x a year I only do 50mg week one. Then a couple weeks of 25, then 2-3 weeks of eod based on studies.
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Yup I’m looking, just hard working 2 jobs at 30-40 hours a week for both of them. Even weekends I put in like 8 hours a day.

So you think I should run the clomid 50/25/25 then 25eod for a week or two?
 
Sorry for the late post guys, got home and just passed out. Got 6 hours of sleep though but I didn’t eat dinner. Not sure if the sleep was worth the not eating lol. Will be posting my lifts from yesterday later on today when I get a chance.
 
ChocolateClen said:
Aight cools. I’m gonna stop the run after this week. Lethargy is killing me and it compounded on top of the appetite suppression is making it really really hard to eat or train.
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I know how that feels, damn lethargy. I have sworn to myself never doing orals again if they cause lethargy.
DMZ and S-drol treat me well up to week 5. No idea why. D-Bol gets me lethargic by week 2 at moderate dosage. No idea why.
 
ChocolateClen said:
Sorry for the late post guys, got home and just passed out. Got 6 hours of sleep though but I didn’t eat dinner. Not sure if the sleep was worth the not eating lol. Will be posting my lifts from yesterday later on today when I get a chance.
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I think I’m sticking with 20/20 when I start this week. I didn’t seem to have any real lethargy or appetite suppression at 20. Ricky had the same issue whenever he went over 16 to 24. Seems like Msten starts feeling like SD over 25 imo.
And just a heads up, I’ve used Ralox from several different ugl and RC sources lately and not only is HG right, it’s not too solid for pct, it seems like the raws are underdosed lately. Having the same problems with different sources needing almost 100mg to get what 50-60 used to give me for gyno relief in the past. A few other guys have been dosing higher than usual.
 
So quick update cause I’m on vacation atm. Started taking the clomid, stopping the DMZ and Msten today as well. I keep forgetting to take pics of my plan for y’all when I’m there but when I get home Tuesday I’ll post them. No idea what my weight is either cause I’m not near a scale. I know I’ve dropped a bit of water and glycogen because my muscles don’t feel as full, so I def need to eat more. Probably around 196-8 still though.
 
Matthersby said:
I think I’m sticking with 20/20 when I start this week. I didn’t seem to have any real lethargy or appetite suppression at 20. Ricky had the same issue whenever he went over 16 to 24. Seems like Msten starts feeling like SD over 25 imo.
And just a heads up, I’ve used Ralox from several different ugl and RC sources lately and not only is HG right, it’s not too solid for pct, it seems like the raws are underdosed lately. Having the same problems with different sources needing almost 100mg to get what 50-60 used to give me for gyno relief in the past. A few other guys have been dosing higher than usual.
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Stuff I use works at 60, giving me all the sides of low estrogen that I would expect from Ralox. Slowly killing the gyno but the harder lumps are still there. Not growing but not shrinking either. Hoping I can eliminate them but if I don’t see a further reduction at the end of the month I’ll taper off
 
Matthersby said:
I think I’m sticking with 20/20 when I start this week. I didn’t seem to have any real lethargy or appetite suppression at 20. Ricky had the same issue whenever he went over 16 to 24. Seems like Msten starts feeling like SD over 25 imo.
And just a heads up, I’ve used Ralox from several different ugl and RC sources lately and not only is HG right, it’s not too solid for pct, it seems like the raws are underdosed lately. Having the same problems with different sources needing almost 100mg to get what 50-60 used to give me for gyno relief in the past. A few other guys have been dosing higher than usual.
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Mike Arnold was saying on this week’s Beast Fitness Radio that Ralox should not be clear, it should be slightly yellow/green tinted and not totally see-through when it’s suspended. If that is helpful at all.
 
Hyde said:
Mike Arnold was saying on this week’s Beast Fitness Radio that Ralox should not be clear, it should be slightly yellow/green tinted and not totally see-through when it’s suspended. If that is helpful at all.
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Mine was light yellow. I know this is going backwards but I’m just going to run some Nolva alongside everything including AI.
Probably low dose Prami since Nolva may exacerbate prolactin on NPP. Whatcha think?
 
Matthersby said:
Mine was light yellow. I know this is going backwards but I’m just going to run some Nolva alongside everything including AI.
Probably low dose Prami since Nolva may exacerbate prolactin on NPP. Whatcha think?
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Lucky you. If you tolerate prami, go for it. Prami is pure evil for me. One drop and I feel like Lindsay Lohan after 3 nights out.
 
Hyde said:
Mike Arnold was saying on this week’s Beast Fitness Radio that Ralox should not be clear, it should be slightly yellow/green tinted and not totally see-through when it’s suspended. If that is helpful at all.
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Interesting because mines completely clear and from a good source, but my clomid that’s suspended is slightly yellowish. Very hard to see the difference but ones just sliiiiightly yellower
 
Matthersby said:
Mine was light yellow. I know this is going backwards but I’m just going to run some Nolva alongside everything including AI.
Probably low dose Prami since Nolva may exacerbate prolactin on NPP. Whatcha think?
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A very low dose of prami if you think you need it I suppose, but I don’t think the Nolva is really anything to worry about (I mean I think the real world effect of the PR sensitization is exaggerated, obviously it happens but isn’t making the difference meaningfully in the gyno equation).

If the ralox isn’t doing it at any dose, it’s probably not legit.
 
Hyde said:
A very low dose of prami if you think you need it I suppose, but I don’t think the Nolva is really anything to worry about (I mean I think the real world effect of the PR sensitization is exaggerated, obviously it happens but isn’t making the difference meaningfully in the gyno equation).

If the ralox isn’t doing it at any dose, it’s probably not legit.
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Ya I strongly feel it’s his lab and their raws because he’s highly reliable and I’m loyal to PRO. His Nolva will do me better.
And I KNOW his Prami is good, makes me a freak with the Mrs.
 
Matthersby said:
Ya I strongly feel it’s his lab and their raws because he’s highly reliable and I’m loyal to PRO. His Nolva will do me better.
And I KNOW his Prami is good, makes me a freak with the Mrs.
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See that’s where I’m getting it from and it feels legit. Maybe I was just out of the game for so long but 50mg a day killed my estrogen
 
Update: got back from the airport earlier today and worked all day, no way to workout. Will lift tomorrow though. Been up since 245 am. Gonna stick with the old plan, hopefully I haven’t lost too much. Will be doing the clomid plan that was recommended above.
 
So the Ralox I brought up in the eye droppers ended up getting too cold and I guess some water got in/was left in the top and it dropped out of solution. Clear crystals in all the droppers mixed in with the oil. Didn’t end up using because I thought it might be worthless at that point. Used the clomid though.

Needless to say, gyno has a bit of pain tonight. Nips aren’t sensitive but the tissue (hardened lumps) under it def is. Not sure if this is a good or bad thing since the Ralox was working before which is good, but even after 2 days of not taking it my lumps are sore again. Gonna assume it’s a bad thing and I may have to watch my estrogen or progesterone forever since it decided to act up in such a short time.

Had very little sex drive when I was with the gf as well. Not sure if that’s from the estrogen rebounding or what but it wasn’t the greatest. Normally I’m super horny all the time so I’m hoping it’s nothing long term.

Prob will end up getting bloods in a month or so to see how everything is looking. Back off the Ralox slowly to see if I can get my estrogen to come back slowly and under control as well. Gonna have to see how I feel after my PCT
 
Weight today is 198, so I’m losing a bit of water and glycogen. Muscles already don’t feel as full or plump but still bigger than they were when I started. Will post my workout later today.

185 for bench was tough today, got it for 3 sets of 10 but man the strength is going faster than I thought. Worried I won’t get it back in time. Fatiguing a bit faster as well I noticed but I assume that’s just from having no test or anything really in my blood.

Bicep vein is FINALLY coming back. Been a long ass time since I’ve seen that bad boi. Means I’m finally breaking in to the lower bodyfat percentages. Shirts aren’t fitting as tight as they used too either but not a big change, Hope it stays that way.

Clomid plan is 50/25/ 25 eod/ 25 e3d then I’m gonna grab bloods.

Ralox plan is to run it at 50 for the next 3 weeks like I have been, then the 4th week taper off at 25 ed. Then bloods the 5th week or 6th week I think. See where I’m at.

I’m gonna taper before the bloods just to see where my E levels are, I’m worried they are some how naturally high and that’s why it flared up when I stopped for a few days. Maybe my prolactin levels are high too I don’t know never gotten full bloods.
 
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