Christian Friends ( <----seriously ) Your opinion, and something I cant define.

[ozarkaBRAND]

Points 1, 3 & 4 are nearlythe same. They point to commonality between species and can be easily answered by the statement below.
Similarity of design is a very weak defense for the support of evolution. As a structural engineer I can differentiate my work from others by similarity of design. I design things ina certain way, a style that I have developed over of the years. This is very common. You can tell a Picasso from a Monet from similarity of design. You can tell a Frank Lloyd Wright building from almost anyone else’s by similarity of design. Similarity of design points to acommon designer.

Points 2 and 5 can also be covered by adaptation. There is a great dealof evolution within a species. It's called adaptation. God given by the way so we can survive varying conditions here on earth. There is none, zilth, nada evolution between species. I just listened to one of the strongest proponents of evolution on the O ‘Riley Factor and he readily admits to this but says he is sure they will find a common link one day. Good luck with that one. Don’t confuse micro evolution (adaptation) with macro evolution (between species). If this were the case why would it have ever stopped? We certainly wouldn't need procreation. Where’s the fun in that?

A few things to consider:

Scientists have found fish fossils high in the mountains.This supports a catastrophic aqua burial (flood) at one time during the earth’s history. There are dozens of other issues that support the flood a well. They have made an entire movie about this.

Chariot wheels and other chariot parts have recently been found and photographed at the bottom of the Red Sea.

Noah’s Ark has been found in the mountains of Ararat. They are actually building a museum near the site.

These are just a few of the physical proofs of creation there are many others. I used to be an Atheist myself. Accepting the reality of a creator is not easy when you have spent your entire life believing in a manmade religion.

If you'd rather perform the mental gymnastics necessary to ignore the evidence for evolution based on an emotionally held supernatural belief, well, okay, I can't stop you.

I'm sure it'll work out fine for you. Hell, the majority of American's believe, and I'm guessing you're from the good ol' U.S. of A.

At that, I'm done. Your kind, if I could give them some incontrovertible proof that there was no god, would tell me that the evidence had been planted there by Satan to lead me away. It's useless. Good day.

 

[BBB]

The fact is, evolution is measurable and observable, and that's why it is pushed as a factual theory, just like gravity.

Evolution does meet the very definition of science. For something to proven scientifically it must be repeatable. Evolution is not. It's a theory that supposedly takes millions if not billions of years. Try to repeat that!

 

[BBB]

Chariot Wheels Found in the Sea at Nuweiba!Invalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedAbove, chariot wheels fixed to axels standing at attention on the seabed. Invalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedAbove, left, photo taken of a gilded chariot wheel that remains on the sea floor. It was found by Ron Wyatt using a molecular frequency generator from his boat above, after he set the equipment to search for gold. The Bible said all the chariots of Egypt and 600 choice chariots, or gold veneered models, were in the army pursuing God’s people. It is speculated there were 20,000 chariots destroyed that day. Above, right, is a drawing of a four spoke chariot found in an Egyptian tomb from the same time period. Four and six spoke wheels are found here in the gulf, and were only used at the same time during the 18th dynasty or 1400 BC when the exodus took place.Invalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedThere are numerous chariot wheels, plus human and horse bones at the crossing site. Above on right, is a human femur bone that is covered by coral, and was tested at Stockholm University. It is from the right leg of a man 165-170cm tall. It is basically mineralized by resting in the Red Sea for such a long time. Invalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedAbove is a coral covered chariot wheel on a vertical axel that is buried in the sand. Although this is atypical, a diver found this within 10 minutes of searching at Nuweiba​

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

Evolution does meet the very definition of science. For something to proven scientifically it must be repeatable. Evolution is not. It's a theory that supposedly takes millions if not billions of years. Try to repeat that!

You're wrong, but alright. Peace.

 

[AE14]

Chariot Wheels Found in the Sea at Nuweiba!Invalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedAbove, chariot wheels fixed to axels standing at attention on the seabed. Invalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedAbove, left, photo taken of a gilded chariot wheel that remains on the sea floor. It was found by Ron Wyatt using a molecular frequency generator from his boat above, after he set the equipment to search for gold. The Bible said all the chariots of Egypt and 600 choice chariots, or gold veneered models, were in the army pursuing God’s people. It is speculated there were 20,000 chariots destroyed that day. Above, right, is a drawing of a four spoke chariot found in an Egyptian tomb from the same time period. Four and six spoke wheels are found here in the gulf, and were only used at the same time during the 18th dynasty or 1400 BC when the exodus took place.Invalid Link RemovedThere are numerous chariot wheels, plus human and horse bones at the crossing site. Above on right, is a human femur bone that is covered by coral, and was tested at Stockholm University. It is from the right leg of a man 165-170cm tall. It is basically mineralized by resting in the Red Sea for such a long time. Invalid Link RemovedAbove is a coral covered chariot wheel on a vertical axel that is buried in the sand. Although this is atypical, a diver found this within 10 minutes of searching at Nuweiba​

Just a quick note.....type in the name Ron Wyatt and look at what you find

Thats right, a well known fraud.

Lets examine the exodus for a moment (regardless of the fact that it was documented by the Sumerians in a much earlier story)

Based on the evidence presented, the assumption is 18th dynasty, just after the Hyksos intermediate period. Now, this could make sense, however, without actual documentation on who the Pharaoh was at the time, and any legit evidence of Jews in Egypt, the story doesnt hold water. Now, if we want to assume that the Hyksos were the ancienct Hebrews, that makes for a more compelling story. Then the Exodus King is Ahmose I, and the expulsion of the Hyksos (or Exodus) makes a little sense.

However, by way of the plagues, there has been a great deal of research done that all the plagues (except #10, I will address that after) were common in Egypt.

#10 (death of first born son) is the most intriguing. However, recent studies showed that during the early New Kingdom (and based on Egyptian tradition) the eldest son was treated better then others. Funny enough, they were also provided with more food than any of the other children. It turns out, that there are a plethora of records that indicates a fungus or some sort of bacteria that grew on grain for an extended period of time. With the eldest sons consuming more food, it shows why they perished as rapidly as they did.

Furthermore, lets assume that you are correct, and this is an 18th-19th dynasty issue (based on your "chariot"). With that said, the common misconception is that Ramses II was the king of the Exodus, and his eldest son died as a result of plague 10. Seems hard to imagine, unless the angel of death was wielding a mace. As the eldest son was Amun-her-kepeshef. Who's body was found in the Valley of the kings with a caved in skull and into his 40's when he died.

With all due respect, please do not go around looking at "evidence" without backing it up first

 

[AE14]

BTW, if we want to examine how the water could have receeded without the hand of god, by all means lets do so. There is a lot of evidence that you will not be happy with

 

[madds87]

You must have forgotten that the earth is millions of years old.

So... And?

 

[madds87]

You said much earlier in this thread that you had already created another thread because this one had been ruined, so now all you're doing is being a sarcastic *******.

No I made another thread for you to go talk on and leave this one alone!!!! and you still come over here and flap your gums..... We told you from the beginming to leave but you refuse..... so dont go accusing me when you read it wrong in the first place. No one has called you names but you come in here and do this. Step down sir. And go somewhere else. You have a hardened heart as "us christians" call it which we cant do anything for. Gl and God bless. But leave!

 

[madds87]

BTW, if we want to examine how the water could have receeded without the hand of god, by all means lets do so. There is a lot of evidence that you will not be happy with

Ae you cant resist ca n you?! Lol

 

[AE14]

Ae you cant resist ca n you?! Lol

Gotta educate, especially when people are quoting a known hack.

 

[madds87]

Gotta educate, especially when people are quoting a known hack.

Ya ya ya. You been educating for a while lol. did I get suckered into a classroom?

 

[AE14]

Ya ya ya. You been educating for a while lol. did I get suckered into a classroom?

History teacher for over a decade.

With that said, the evidence used was sad and downright wrong. Really a shame.

 

[madds87]

History teacher for over a decade.

With that said, the evidence used was sad and downright wrong. Really a shame.

Then you should know of some evedence that supports our side?

 

[AE14]

Then you should know of some evedence that supports our side?

Feel free to share.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

No I made another thread for you to go talk on and leave this one alone!!!! and you still come over here and flap your gums..... We told you from the beginming to leave but you refuse..... so dont go accusing me when you read it wrong in the first place. No one has called you names but you come in here and do this. Step down sir. And go somewhere else. You have a hardened heart as "us christians" call it which we cant do anything for. Gl and God bless. But leave!

I just made another thread so proceed to it. Let us get back to what we were talking about. Ae im very familiar with how you feel. Lol thank you. But let us continue sir. thank you.

Looks like you're correct. I misread, and I apologize.

I'd like to note that I never refused to leave. Other members continued to quote and reply to my earlier posts, so I replied in turn... and here we are.

Hardened heart? I was once like you, perhaps better. Devout, dedicated, faithful. There was no great tragedy that changed that either, but an intellectual awakening.

 

[madds87]

Looks like you're correct. I misread, and I apologize.

I'd like to note that I never refused to leave. Other members continued to quote and reply to my earlier posts, so I replied in turn... and here we are.

Hardened heart? I was once like you, perhaps better. Devout, dedicated, faithful. There was no great tragedy that changed that either, but an intellectual awakening.

Good for you. Its what we call it. Doesnt meen you have to believe it.. Thank you for apologizing. You know its a tragedy to us but not you. So here we are again. But still.... My point still is unsubb. I know I can to you and ae for info if I need it and thank you...

 

[AE14]

Good for you. Its what we call it. Doesnt meen you have to believe it.. Thank you for apologizing. You know its a tragedy to us but not you. So here we are again. But still.... My point still is unsubb. I know I can to you and ae for info if I need it and thank you...

It's all good. Never disrespect, just differing beliefs.

 

[madds87]

Feel free to share.

No im curious if there is anything because you had to have compared notes from one to the other. Unless you have found that the whole biblical christian view is just untrue.

 

[BBB]

History teacher for over a decade.

With that said, the evidence used was sad and downright wrong. Really a shame.

Being a history doesn't make you an expert on religious matters. I promise, if you start a thread for Athiests and and/or agonistics, I won't even open it.

 

[AE14]

Being a history doesn't make you an expert on religious matters. I promise, if you start a thread for Athiests and and/or agonistics, I won't even open it.

Thats all well and good, but you didn't even address my response to your faulty evidence. For shame!

 

[madds87]

It's all good. Never disrespect, just differing beliefs.

Ae I have read your posts and it has not sounded disrespecting at all. Ty for this. Even though we dont agree but you have inspired me to be able to support my side better. ty. God places certain people in our lives for a reason. seems I have more faith since I dont know as much.

 

[AE14]

No im curious if there is anything because you had to have compared notes from one to the other. Unless you have found that the whole biblical christian view is just untrue.

I have found that it is based predominantly onpagan stories, with specific Roman and Sumerian influences.

 

[madds87]

Being a history doesn't make you an expert on religious matters. I promise, if you start a thread for Athiests and and/or agonistics, I won't even open it.

ooooooooo!!!! In your face in your face!!!! Lol very good point bbb! Two points for you sir!

 

[AE14]

ooooooooo!!!! In your face in your face!!!! Lol very good point bbb! Two points for you sir!

Considering 8 of the 10+ years were spent teaching religion as well as years studying, I feel pretty confident. :lol:

 

[madds87]

Considering 8 of the 10+ years were spent teaching religion as well as years studying, I feel pretty confident. :lol:

I meant on you starting a agnostic thread and we would open it

 

[madds87]

I meant on you starting a agnostic thread and we would open it

Wouldnt*

 

[madds87]

I have found that it is based predominantly onpagan stories, with specific Roman and Sumerian influences.

Im going to have to challenge this....

 

[madds87]

Im going to have to challenge this....

Later I meen when I find a hypothesis. Lol

 

[BBB]

Considering 8 of the 10+ years were spent teaching religion as well as years studying, I feel pretty confident. :lol:

I've spent over 40 years studying different religions and teaching about the same and I dissagree with almost everything you have said so far. It's obvious that you mind is made up and to be quite honest I'm tired of the whole debate.

 

[AE14]

I've spent over 40 years studying different religions and teaching about the same and I dissagree with almost everything you have said so far. It's obvious that you mind is made up and to be quite honest I'm tired of the whole debate.

So you teach and study for 40 years, and you use a well known hoax as a source to prove the Exodus? Really? There are far better sources out there that could lead in the direction of the Exodus, and you use Wyatt? The same guy who supposedly found every single artifact of religious importance, even the blood of Jesus on Noah's Ark? :rofl:

Thats a rough 40 years

 

[AE14]

Im going to have to challenge this....

Later I meen when I find a hypothesis. Lol

In all seriousness, read History Begins at Sumer​ by Kramer. Very eye opening

 

[madds87]

In all seriousness, read History Begins at Sumer by Kramer. Very eye opening

Invalid Link Removed
Check it ae

 

[AE14]

Invalid Link Removed
Check it ae

thats the book, they offered very little outside of a table of contents. I have read the book and Kramer goes into detail about those topics

 

[BBB]

So you teach and study for 40 years, and you use a well known hoax as a source to prove the Exodus? Really? There are far better sources out there that could lead in the direction of the Exodus, and you use Wyatt? The same guy who supposedly found every single artifact of religious importance, even the blood of Jesus on Noah's Ark? :rofl:

Thats a rough 40 years

Ron Wyatt was an amateur Archaeologist. His passion for his work was admired by all who knew him. I'm not saying that everything he claimed to have found has been confirmed. But I do find his research very compelling. There are so many other areas that confirm the validity of scripture that I do not have time or the inclination to try to approach them in this forum. There a many well educated scientists who also believe in creation. As I said I have studied both sides of the issue and I believe that the creation theory has far more to support it than evolution.

 

[AE14]

Ron Wyatt was an amateur Archaeologist. His passion for his work was admired by all who knew him. I'm not saying that everything he claimed to have found has been confirmed. But I do find his research very compelling. There are so many other areas that confirm the validity of scripture that I do not have time or the inclination to try to approach them in this forum. There a many well educated scientists who also believe in creation. As I said I have studied both sides of the issue and I believe that the creation theory has far more to support it than evolution.

In all seriousness, this is utter drivel. All those who knew him? Except the ones that worked for him that have already exposed the fraud. My point was that I did not dispute that some biblical stories could be supported through evidence, however, to use Wyatt shoots your credibility. Amateur is a good word

Additionally, there is evidence to support both sides of the argument, however, to make the statement that there is more to support the biblical story as real is unfounded, and also somewhat short sighted, considering a vast majority of those stories are not even unique to the Judeo-Christian world. There is a plethora of evidence that shows a good selection of your stories were taken from earlier sources.

 

[BBB]

I know this is a waste of time but here goes....

Invalid Link Removed

Who Wrote the Bible - Evidence of Divine Inspiration
“Who wrote the Bible” is a question that can be definitively answered by examining the biblical texts in light of the external evidences that supports its claims. 2 Timothy 3:16 states that “All scripture is inspired by God….” In 2 Peter 1:20-21, Peter reminds the reader to “know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, … but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.” The Bible itself tells us that it is God who is the author of His book.

God does not leave us with just claims of His divine handiwork in the Bible, but also supports it with compelling evidence. The design of the Bible itself is a miracle. Written over more than 1,500 years by vastly different writers, yet every book in the Bible is consistent in its message. These 66 books talk about history, prophecy, poetry, and theology. Despite their complexity, differences in writing styles and vast time periods, the books of the Bible agree miraculously well in theme, facts and cross-referencing. No human beings could have planned such an intricate combination of books over a 1,500-year time span. Bible manuscripts (remember, there were no printing presses until 1455) have survived despite weather, persecution and time. Most ancient writings written on weak materials like papyrus have vanished all together. Yet many copies of the Old Testament scriptures survived. For instance, the Dead Sea Scrolls contain all books of the Old Testament, except Esther, and have been dated to before the time of Christ. Consider Julius Caesar’s Gallic Wars. Only ten copies written about 1,000 years after the event are in existence. In comparison, there are over 24,000+ New Testament manuscripts, the earliest one dating to within 24 years after Christ.

The Bible also validates its divine authorship through fulfilled prophecies. An astonishing 668 prophecies have been fulfilled and none have ever been proven false (three are unconfirmed). An honest study of biblical prophecy will compellingly show the divine authorship of the Bible. Further, archeology confirms (or in some cases supports) accounts in the biblical record. No other holy book comes close to the Bible in the amount of evidence supporting its divine authorship.
Who Wrote the Bible - A Question of Eternal Significance
“Who Wrote the Bible” is indeed a question that everyone must ask. If indeed it is the Word of the living God, then no other book gives us more insight into our lives, more hope for our future, and a true path to a relationship with God. Search the Bible with openness and honesty and see for yourself what the Creator of the universe wants to tell you!

 

[AE14]

I know this is a waste of time but here goes....

Invalid Link Removed

Who Wrote the Bible - Evidence of Divine Inspiration
"Who wrote the Bible" is a question that can be definitively answered by examining the biblical texts in light of the external evidences that supports its claims. 2 Timothy 3:16 states that "All scripture is inspired by God...." In 2 Peter 1:20-21, Peter reminds the reader to "know this first of all, that no prophecy of scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, ... but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God." The Bible itself tells us that it is God who is the author of His book.

God does not leave us with just claims of His divine handiwork in the Bible, but also supports it with compelling evidence. The design of the Bible itself is a miracle. Written over more than 1,500 years by vastly different writers, yet every book in the Bible is consistent in its message. These 66 books talk about history, prophecy, poetry, and theology. Despite their complexity, differences in writing styles and vast time periods, the books of the Bible agree miraculously well in theme, facts and cross-referencing. No human beings could have planned such an intricate combination of books over a 1,500-year time span. Bible manuscripts (remember, there were no printing presses until 1455) have survived despite weather, persecution and time. Most ancient writings written on weak materials like papyrus have vanished all together. Yet many copies of the Old Testament scriptures survived. For instance, the Dead Sea Scrolls contain all books of the Old Testament, except Esther, and have been dated to before the time of Christ. Consider Julius Caesar's Gallic Wars. Only ten copies written about 1,000 years after the event are in existence. In comparison, there are over 24,000+ New Testament manuscripts, the earliest one dating to within 24 years after Christ.

The Bible also validates its divine authorship through fulfilled prophecies. An astonishing 668 prophecies have been fulfilled and none have ever been proven false (three are unconfirmed). An honest study of biblical prophecy will compellingly show the divine authorship of the Bible. Further, archeology confirms (or in some cases supports) accounts in the biblical record. No other holy book comes close to the Bible in the amount of evidence supporting its divine authorship.
Who Wrote the Bible - A Question of Eternal Significance
"Who Wrote the Bible" is indeed a question that everyone must ask. If indeed it is the Word of the living God, then no other book gives us more insight into our lives, more hope for our future, and a true path to a relationship with God. Search the Bible with openness and honesty and see for yourself what the Creator of the universe wants to tell you!

First, I appreciate your efforts. However, just curious, which bible are we speaking of here? The OT or the NT? The reason I ask is that stories from both have been shown to be borrowed from earlier texts. Noah's flood-Gilgamesh. The Jesus story- a great conglomeration of Sol, Mithras, Horus etc...

Additionally,the firs line or so is interesting. " who wrote he bible can be definitively answered by examining the biblical texts". That's like defining a word with the word itself.

I would like to debate some of the prophecy to be honest

 

[BBB]

I'm actually writing this on company time so I can't spend a great deal of time but let's talk about the book of Daniel. In the book of Daniel God predicted the five major world kingdoms in order with great detail. This was done during the Babylonian rule (the first great world empire). The next was the Medo-Persian. Then Greece. Then the Roman Empire which was never concurred but fell within, just as predicted. We are now in the last great empire (iron mixed with clay) until once again the Great Roman Empire will be revived.

 

[carpee]

I'm actually writing this on company time so I can't spend a great deal of time but let's talk about the book of Daniel. In the book of Daniel God predicted the five major world kingdoms in order with great detail. This was done during the Babylonian rule (the first great world empire). The next was the Medo-Persian. Then Greece. Then the Roman Empire which was never concurred but fell within, just as predicted. We are now in the last great empire (iron mixed with clay) until once again the Great Roman Empire will be revived.

European union?

that is what van impe talks about, although I believe he talks about 7 major kingdoms and the last being what we have today in the EU as revived roman empire

I'm on the road for work but have to dig
into my notes at home.

 

[AE14]

I'm actually writing this on company time so I can't spend a great deal of time but let's talk about the book of Daniel. In the book of Daniel God predicted the five major world kingdoms in order with great detail. This was done during the Babylonian rule (the first great world empire). The next was the Medo-Persian. Then Greece. Then the Roman Empire which was never concurred but fell within, just as predicted. We are now in the last great empire (iron mixed with clay) until once again the Great Roman Empire will be revived.

When you have a chance, I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on this. To me it is a stretch and a half to connect it, but I would be intrigued to hear your methods

 

[BBB]

In Daniel chapter 2, we are told that King Nebuchadnezzar of Babylon "had dreams; and his spirit was troubled" (2:1). The king summoned all "the magicians, the enchanters, the sorcerers, and the Chaldeans... to tell the king his dreams" (2:2). He demanded to know "the dream and its interpretation" or else they would be "torn limb from limb" (2:5).The magicians and enchanters asked to know the dream so they could interpret it (2:7). The king said that in the past they had spoken "lying and corrupt words" and demanded, "Therefore tell me the dream, and I shall know that you can show me its interpretation" (2:9). They told the king that no one could "meet the king's demand" (2:10), at which point the king became "very furious, and commanded that all the wise men of Babylon be destroyed" (2:12).Daniel was one of those whom was targeted to be slain (2:13), so he sought an opportunity to relate and interpret the dream to Nebuchadnezzar (2:16). Daniel prayed about the situation, and during the night he received a vision (2:17-19). Daniel was then presented to the king (2:25-30), where he first related the dream...

31 "You saw, O king, and behold, a great image. This image, mighty and of exceeding brightness, stood before you, and its appearance was frightening. 32 The head of this image was of fine gold, its breast and arms of silver, its belly and thighs of bronze, 33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay. 34 As you looked, a stone was cut out by no human hand, and it smote the image on its feet of iron and clay, and broke them in pieces; 35 then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. --Daniel 2:31-35​

Then he started to interpret the dream...

36 "This was the dream; now we will tell the king its interpretation. 37 You, O king, the king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given the kingdom, the power, and the might, and the glory, 38 and into whose hand he has given, wherever they dwell, the sons of men, the beasts of the field, and the birds of the air, making you rule over them all--you are the head of gold. --Daniel 2:36-38​

Nebuchadnezzar and the kingdom of Babylonia are used interchangeably here. This is a common practice throughout the scriptures. The king represents the kingdom. Nebuchadnezzar is the personification of Babylonia. The Babylonian Empire is portrayed here as the head of this image or statue. It is described as being made out of gold, the most precious metal available at that time. Then, Daniel says that three more kingdoms are to follow the Babylonian Empire...

39 After you shall arise another kingdom inferior to you, and yet a third kingdom of bronze, which shall rule over all the earth. 40 And there shall be a fourth kingdom, strong as iron, because iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things; and like iron which crushes, it shall break and crush all these. --Daniel 2:39-40​

Following the Babylonian Empire (ca. 606 to 538 BC), the Medo-Persian Empire would reign (ca. 538 to 371 BC). Daniel himself saw this transition of kingdoms occur during his own lifetime. In October of 539 BC, Cyrus the Great, king of Persia, defeated Nabonidus at Opis and occupied Babylon. Cyrus then assumed the title of 'king of Babylon'. Some have speculated that the two arms of Daniel's image suggest an allusion to the Medes "on one hand" (pun intended), and the Persians on the other. It is described as being made of silver, because it is viewed as "inferior" to the Babylonian Empire. Nevertheless, the Medo-Persian Empire stretched far wider than the Babylonian Empire in its territory.Following the Medo-Persian Empire, the Greek Empire would emerge (ca. 371 to 167 BC). It is described as being made of bronze, because it is seen as being inferior to the Medo-Persian Empire. However, the Greek Empire stretched further yet than the Medo-Persian. It is interesting to note that the Greeks made wide use of bronze both in armor and in sculpture.

Between the early 7th century and the mid-4th century B.C the Ancient Greeks adopted a form of warfare which set them apart from the other contemporary civilisations in the Eastern Mediterranean. This involved the use of heavily-armed infantrymen call hoplites, supported by more lightly armed slingers and archers. They were distinguished by their round shield ('hoplon') of wood and leather faced with bronze, their long thrusting-spear, and their protective armour of bronze, usually a helmet, a corselet and leg-guards. Bronze, an alloy of copper and tin, can gleam like gold when new, and the close ranks of hoplites with striking and often terrifying blazons on their shields, must have been an impressive and startling sight. --"Invalid Link Removed", Shefton Museum, University of Newcastle​

Following the Greek Empire came the Roman Empire (ca. 167 BC to 476 AD). It is described as being made of iron, because as Daniel says, "iron breaks to pieces and shatters all things; and like iron which crushes, it shall break and crush all these (previous kingdoms)". This is certainly a good description of the Roman Empire. And interestingly enough, the Romans used iron and steel more widely than bronze. Some have suggested that the two legs represent the division of the Roman Empire into the Eastern and Western kingdoms. The Roman Empire did not extend as far eastward as the previous Empires, but much further to the west and north. It encircled the entire Mediterranean Sea and extended as far north as Britain.Daniel then goes on to say...

41 And as you saw the feet and toes partly of potter's clay and partly of iron, it shall be a divided kingdom; but some of the firmness of iron shall be in it, just as you saw iron mixed with the miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 As you saw the iron mixed with miry clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay. --Daniel 2:41-43​

Now, this kingdom has no historical equivalent, so it must be yet-future. Daniel calls it a "divided" kingdom. The ten toes represent ten countries (or kingdoms) which come together to form an alliance as represented by the phrase, "they will mix with one another in marriage". Some of these countries are strong as represented by the "iron", and some are weak as represented by the "clay". But the alliance "will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay". We have seen in recent years (Iraq for example) how difficult it can be to keep such a coalition together. You may remember that in our discussion about the Antichrist in Daniel 11 we mentioned this alliance...

And from the time that an alliance is made with him he shall act deceitfully; and he shall become strong with a small people. --Daniel 11:23​

Now, you will notice that the unifying theme throughout this dream and its interpretation have been kingdoms, and not merely any kingdoms, but great empires. All of the empires that are described here have had a negative impact on the nation of Israel by way of military conquest and occupation. All of the empires described here have been "world domination" type empires.It will be the same for this last kingdom of 'iron and clay'. The alliance that is made between these ten countries or kingdoms will be the final human effort, promoted and facilitated by Satan, to establish a world-dominating empire. Israel will ultimately be affected by this empire through military conquest and occupation.Daniel ends his interpretation of the dream as follows...

44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall its sovereignty be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand for ever; 45 just as you saw that a stone was cut from a mountain by no human hand, and that it broke in pieces the iron, the bronze, the clay, the silver, and the gold. A great God has made known to the king what shall be hereafter. The dream is certain, and its interpretation sure. --Daniel 2:44-45​

"And in the days of those kings", that is the 'last days', God "will set up a kingdom" on earth which will make all previous attempts at "world government" look cruel, brutal and infantile. The kingdom of God "shall never be destroyed". The kingdom of God will not be "left to another people" as were the kingdoms of Babylonia, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome. The kingdom of God will "break in pieces" all previous earthly kingdoms "and bring them to an end". No longer shall humans, motivated by Satan, attempt to dominate and enslave the world through the use of force and brutality. The kingdom of God "shall stand for ever".The "stone that was cut... by no human hand" represents Christ. The "mountain", from which the stone was cut, represents God Himself. Jesus is God's "only-begotten" Son. Jesus (the stone) comes crashing in on all of man's past attempts at world domination. He comes crashing in on man's final attempt at world domination. He comes crashing in on Satan and the Antichrist. He is sent by God Himself, and his kingdom shall last forever.Just as the kingdom of Babylonia was represented by Nebuchadnezzar, so also the kingdom of God here is represented by Jesus (the stone). Back in Daniel 2:35 we read that the stone which "struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth". This means that the kingdom of God will grow to fill "the whole earth". It will not be limited to the Mediterranean Sea, or to Europe, or to Persia and the Near East. The entire earth will become God's kingdom, ruled and reigned over by Jesus Christ.

 

[AE14]

Thank you BBB. Interesting read. I do think that there is a stretch in making the correlations between certain Empires, but yet leaving off others which were more powerful and far reaching.

IMO, the interpretations are what we want them to be. I am sure as you read them, you see the things you desire to see, as I do not. At the end of the day, I have a hard time with the Jesus story unto itself, as the research has shown fairly conclusively that Jesus is a conglomeration of many pagan myths and stories. The Virgin Birth, Resurrection have all been part of earlier stories, as has the title "savior", "son of god" etc...

Again though, thank you for putting the time in.

 

[GTB]

Thank you BBB. Interesting read. I do think that there is a stretch in making the correlations between certain Empires, but yet leaving off others which were more powerful and far reaching.

IMO, the interpretations are what we want them to be. I am sure as you read them, you see the things you desire to see, as I do not. At the end of the day, I have a hard time with the Jesus story unto itself, as the research has shown fairly conclusively that Jesus is a conglomeration of many pagan myths and stories. The Virgin Birth, Resurrection have all been part of earlier stories, as has the title "savior", "son of god" etc...

Again though, thank you for putting the time in.

I can sit back on the evolution issue, no need to split atoms, Christians can not even agree conclusively on the issue. IMO God created it all, and the enviromental changes required mutation( much different than evolution in it's original intent). In order for mutations to become genetically altered they have to prove benefial to the organism. But the divinity of Jesus if tried under the court of law would indeed prove beyond a shadow of a doubt to be true, myths stories, and similarities are simply conjecture to dilute and discredit the truth. Such are the tactics of men of ill repute(defense attorneys attempting to create doubt).

 

[AE14]

But the divinity of Jesus if tried under the court of law would indeed prove beyond a shadow of a doubt to be true, myths stories, and similarities are simply conjecture to dilute and discredit the truth. Such are the tactics of men of ill repute(defense attorneys attempting to create doubt).

I would love to see this proved "beyond a reasonable doubt" as you suggest.

It seems you have not taken a look at the earlier stories and myths that predate the myth of Jesus in some cases by over 1000 years.

I respect your opinion, but disagree based on the evidence.

 

[BBB]

The Flood of Noah and the Flood of Gilgamesh [h=2]by Frank Lorey, M.A.[/h]Background
The Epic of Gilgamesh has been of interest to Christians ever since its discovery in the mid-nineteenth century in the ruins of the great library at Nineveh, with its account of a universal flood with significant parallels to the Flood of Noah's day.[SUP]1, 2[/SUP] The rest of the Epic, which dates back to possibly third millennium B.C., contains little of value for Christians, since it concerns typical polytheistic myths associated with the pagan peoples of the time. However, some Christians have studied the ideas of creation and the afterlife presented in the Epic. Even secular scholars have recognized the parallels between the Babylonian, Phoenician, and Hebrew accounts, although not all are willing to label the connections as anything more than shared mythology.[SUP]3[/SUP]
There have been numerous flood stories identified from ancient sources scattered around the world.[SUP]4[/SUP] The stories that were discovered on cuneiform tablets, which comprise some of the earliest surviving writing, have obvious similarities. Cuneiform writing was invented by the Sumerians and carried on by the Akkadians. Babylonian and Assyrian are two dialects of the Akkadian, and both contain a flood account. While there are differences between the original Sumerian and later Babylonian and Assyrian flood accounts, many of the similarities are strikingly close to the Genesis flood account.[SUP]5[/SUP] The Babylonian account is the most intact, with only seven of 205 lines missing.[SUP]6[/SUP] It was also the first discovered, making it the most studied of the early flood accounts.
The Epic of Gilgamesh is contained on twelve large tablets, and since the original discovery, it has been found on others, as well as having been translated into other early languages.[SUP]7[/SUP] The actual tablets date back to around 650 B.C. and are obviously not originals since fragments of the flood story have been found on tablets dated around 2,000 B.C.[SUP]8[/SUP] Linguistic experts believe that the story was composed well before 2,000 B.C. compiled from material that was much older than that date.[SUP]9[/SUP] The Sumerian cuneiform writing has been estimated to go as far back as 3,300 B.C.[SUP]10[/SUP]
The Story
The Epic was composed in the form of a poem. The main figure is Gilgamesh, who actually may have been an historical person. The Sumerian King List shows Gilgamesh in the first dynasty of Uruk reigning for 126 years.[SUP]11[/SUP] This length of time is not a problem when compared with the age of the pre-flood patriarchs of the Bible. Indeed, after Gilgamesh, the kings lived a normal life span as compared with today.[SUP]12[/SUP] The King List is also of interest as it mentions the flood specifically—"the deluge overthrew the land."[SUP]13[/SUP]
The story starts by introducing the deeds of the hero Gilgamesh. He was one who had great knowledge and wisdom, and preserved information of the days before the flood. Gilgamesh wrote on tablets of stone all that he had done, including building the city walls of Uruk and its temple for Eanna. He was an oppressive ruler, however, which caused his subjects to cry out to the "gods" to create a nemesis to cause Gilgamesh strife.[SUP]14[/SUP]
After one fight, this nemesis—Enkidu—became best friends with Gilgamesh. The two set off to win fame by going on many dangerous adventures in which Enkidu is eventually killed. Gilgamesh then determines to find immortality since he now fears death. It is upon this search that he meets Utnapishtim, the character most like the Biblical Noah.[SUP]15[/SUP]
In brief, Utnapishtim had become immortal after building a ship to weather the Great Deluge that destroyed mankind. He brought all of his relatives and all species of creatures aboard the vessel. Utnapishtim released birds to find land, and the ship landed upon a mountain after the flood. The story then ends with tales of Enkidu's visit to the underworld.[SUP]16[/SUP] Even though many similarities exist between the two accounts, there still are serious differences.
The table below presents a comparison of the main aspects of the two accounts of the flood as presented in the Book of Genesis and in the Epic of Gilgamesh.

[TABLE="align: center"]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 3"]

COMPARISON OF GENESIS AND GILGAMESH ​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="width: 126"] [/TD]
[TD="width: 125"]

GENESIS​

[/TD]
[TD="width: 125"]

GILGAMESH​

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Extent of flood [/TD]
[TD]Global[/TD]
[TD]Global[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Cause[/TD]
[TD]Man's wickedness [/TD]
[TD]Man's sins [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Intended for whom? [/TD]
[TD]All mankind [/TD]
[TD]One city & all mankind [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sender[/TD]
[TD]Yahweh[/TD]
[TD]Assembly of "gods" [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Name of hero [/TD]
[TD]Noah[/TD]
[TD]Utnapishtim[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Hero's character [/TD]
[TD]Righteous[/TD]
[TD]Righteous[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Means of announcement [/TD]
[TD]Direct from God [/TD]
[TD]In a dream [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ordered to build boat? [/TD]
[TD]Yes[/TD]
[TD]Yes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Did hero complain? [/TD]
[TD]Yes[/TD]
[TD]Yes[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Height of boat [/TD]
[TD]Several stories (3) [/TD]
[TD]Several stories (6) [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Compartments inside? [/TD]
[TD]Many[/TD]
[TD]Many[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Doors[/TD]
[TD]One[/TD]
[TD]One[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Windows[/TD]
[TD]At least one [/TD]
[TD]At least one [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Outside coating [/TD]
[TD]Pitch[/TD]
[TD]Pitch[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Shape of boat [/TD]
[TD]Rectangular[/TD]
[TD]Square[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Human passengers [/TD]
[TD]Family members only [/TD]
[TD]Family & few others [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Other passengers[/TD]
[TD]All species of animals [/TD]
[TD]All species of animals [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Means of flood[/TD]
[TD]Ground water & heavy rain [/TD]
[TD]Heavy rain [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Duration of flood[/TD]
[TD]Long (40 days & nights plus) [/TD]
[TD]Short (6 days & nights) [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Test to find land [/TD]
[TD]Release of birds [/TD]
[TD]Release of birds [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Types of birds[/TD]
[TD]Raven & three doves [/TD]
[TD]Dove, swallow, raven [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Ark landing spot[/TD]
[TD]Mountain -- Mt. Ararat [/TD]
[TD]Mountain -- Mt. Nisir [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Sacrificed after flood?[/TD]
[TD]Yes, by Noah [/TD]
[TD]Yes, by Utnapishtim [/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD]Blessed after flood?[/TD]
[TD]Yes[/TD]
[TD]Yes[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
Some comments need to be made about the comparisons in the table. Some of the similarities are very striking, while others are very general. The command for Utnapishtim to build the boat is remarkable: "O man of Shuruppak, son of Ubar-Tutu, tear down thy house, build a ship; abandon wealth, seek after life; scorn possessions, save thy life. Bring up the seed of all kinds of living things into the ship which thou shalt build. Let its dimensions be well measured."[SUP]17[/SUP] The cause of the flood as sent in judgment on man's sins is striking also. The eleventh tablet, line 180 reads, "Lay upon the sinner his sin; lay upon the transgressor his transgression."[SUP]18[/SUP] A study of these parallels to Genesis 6-9, as well as the many others, demonstrate the non-coincidental nature of these similarities.
The meanings of the names of the heroes, however, have absolutely no common root or connection. Noah means "rest," while Utnapishtim means "finder of life."[SUP]19[/SUP] Neither was perfect, but both were considered righteous and relatively faultless compared to those around them.
Utnapishtim also took a pilot for the boat, and some craftsmen, not just his family in the ark. It is also interesting that both accounts trace the landing spot to the same general region of the Middle East; however, Mt. Ararat and Mt. Nisir are about 300 miles apart. The blessing that each hero received after the flood was also quite different. Utnapishtim was granted eternal life while Noah was to multiply and fill the earth and have dominion over the animals.
Conclusions
From the early days of the comparative study of these two flood accounts, it has been generally agreed that there is an obvious relationship. The widespread nature of flood traditions throughout the entire human race is excellent evidence for the existence of a great flood from a legal/historical point of view.[SUP]20[/SUP] Dating of the oldest fragments of the Gilgamesh account originally indicated that it was older than the assumed dating of Genesis.[SUP]21[/SUP] However, the probability exists that the Biblical account had been preserved either as an oral tradition, or in written form handed down from Noah, through the patriarchs and eventually to Moses, thereby making it actually older than the Sumerian accounts which were restatements (with alterations) to the original.
A popular theory, proposed by liberal "scholars," said that the Hebrews "borrowed" from the Babylonians, but no conclusive proof has ever been offered.[SUP]22[/SUP] The differences, including religious, ethical, and sheer quantity of details, make it unlikely that the Biblical account was dependent on any extant source from the Sumerian traditions. This still does not stop these liberal and secular scholars from advocating such a theory. The most accepted theory among evangelicals is that both have one common source, predating all the Sumerian forms.[SUP]23[/SUP] The divine inspiration of the Bible would demand that the Genesis account is the correct version. Indeed the Hebrews were known for handing down their records and tradition.[SUP]24[/SUP] The Book of Genesis is viewed for the most part as an historical work, even by many liberal scholars, while the Epic of Gilgamesh is viewed as mythological. The One-source Theory must, therefore, lead back to the historical event of the Flood and Noah's Ark.[SUP]25[/SUP] To those who believe in the inspiration and infallibility of the Bible, it should not be a surprise that God would preserve the true account of the Flood in the traditions of His people. The Genesis account was kept pure and accurate throughout the centuries by the providence of God until it was finally compiled, edited, and written down by Moses.[SUP]26[/SUP] The Epic of Gilgamesh, then, contains the corrupted account as preserved and embellished by peoples who did not follow the God of the Hebrews.
REFERENCES

1. Keller, Werner, The Bible as History, (New York: William Morrow and Company, 1956), p. 32.
2. Sanders, N.K., The Epic of Gilgamesh ,(an English translation with introduction) (London: Penguin Books, 1964), p. 9.
3. Graves, Robert, The Creek Myths, Volume 1,(London: Penguin Books, 1960), pp. 138-143.
4. Rehwinkel, Alfred M., The Flood in the Light of the Bible, Geology, and Archaeology, (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing, 1951), p. 129.
5. O'Brien, J. Randall, "Flood Stories of the Ancient Near East", Biblical Illustrator, (Fall 1986, volume 13, number 1), p. 61.
6. Barton, George A., Archaeology and the Bible, (Philadelphia: American Sunday School Union, 1916), pp. 273-277
7. Keller, The Bible as History, p. 33.
8. Whitcomb, John C. and Morris, Henry M., The Genesis Flood, (Phillipsburg: Presbyterian and Reformed, 1961), p. 38.
9. Heidel, Alexander, The Gilgamesh Epic and Old Testament Parallels, (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1949), p. 13.
10. O'Brien, "Flood Stories of the Ancient Near East", p. 61.
11. Heidel, The Gilgamesh Epic and Old Testament Parallel, p. 13.
12. Sanders, The Epic of Gilgamesh, p. 21.
13. Vos, Howard F., Genesis and Archaeology, (Chicago: Moody Press, 1963), p. 35.
14. Sanders, The Epic of Gilgamesh, pp. 20-23.
15. Ibid., pp. 30 39.
16. Ibid., pp. 39-42.
17. The Bible as History, p. 33.
18. Sanders, The Epic of Gilgamesh, p. 109.
19. O'Brien, "Flood Stories of the Ancient Near East", pp. 62, 63.
20. Morris, Henry M., Science and the Bible, (Chicago: Moody Press, 1986), p. 85.
21. O'Brien, "Flood Stories of the Ancient Near East", p. 64.
22. Ibid.
23. Ibid.
24. Morris, Science and the Bible, p. 92.
25. Ibid., p. 85.
26. Whitcomb, John C., The Early Earth (Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1986), p. 134; Whitcomb and Morris, The Genesis Flood, p. 488.

* Mr. Lorey is a Registered Historical Archaeologist.

 

[AE14]

1. Good to see the comparison made
2. The stories are quite similar, as the analysis noted
3. It is a large assumption to make in saying that the Noah story is an oral tradition without any way to prove it.

There really is no evidence to support that age theory. Based on civilization age alone, Gilgamesh would be older. Just think, that is not the only global flood story either.

 

[BBB]

You are a Bible skeptic. That’s fine everyone must decide for their self where they stand as far as the Bible is concerned. I am convinced beyond any doubt that it is the infallible word of GOD. I would bet my life on it, in all actuality I have. Every Bible skeptic I have ever met has never read the Bible (all 66 books) cover to cover. Those who do are seldom the same. I would invite you to read it completely. Either the NKJV or the NIV, both are good. After all it is the number one best seller of all time.

 

[AE14]

You are a Bible skeptic. That’s fine everyone must decide for their self where they stand as far as the Bible is concerned. I am convinced beyond any doubt that it is the infallible word of GOD. I would bet my life on it, in all actuality I have. Every Bible skeptic I have ever met has never read the Bible (all 66 books) cover to cover. Those who do are seldom the same. I would invite you to read it completely. Either the NKJV or the NIV, both are good. After all it is the number one best seller of all time.

Sadly I have read the OT, NT, Qu'ran, Tao te Ching, Dhamapada, Egyptian Book of the Dead, the Upanishads, and others as well. I truly only liked the bolded ones

I am certainly a skeptic, as I have seen the examples in earlier cultures that are the basis for many of the judeo-christian stories. Thus negating them for me.

 

[AE14]

Thought I would throw this out there

Miraculous Births
The Buddha
Incarnations of Vishnu
Krishna
Virgin Mary
Horus
Perseus
These are just to name a few

Ressurrected Gods
Ishtar
Quetzalcoatl/Kukulkan
Adonis
Osiris
Cronos
Bacchus

Again, just to name a few
My point here is that there is ample evidence to support the claim that Jesus is based on a conglomeration of many people and many stories. I am not making the statement that a historical "yeshua" did or did not exist, but the divine nature and stories can be found in much older traditions.

 

[GTB]

Thought I would throw this out there

Miraculous Births
The Buddha
Incarnations of Vishnu
Krishna
Virgin Mary
Horus
Perseus
These are just to name a few

Ressurrected Gods
Ishtar
Quetzalcoatl/Kukulkan
Adonis
Osiris
Cronos
Bacchus

Again, just to name a few
My point here is that there is ample evidence to support the claim that Jesus is based on a conglomeration of many people and many stories. I am not making the statement that a historical "yeshua" did or did not exist, but the divine nature and stories can be found in much older traditions.

You do realize that Al Gore(had to throw that in there) had not created the internet at this time and travel was minimal. I am fairly confident the similarities in other stories were relatively unknown to other existing civilizations. However to discredit the vaidity of Jesus Diety for example because of the existence of other similar stories is conjecture not science. To state that with certainty that the stories of Scripture are borrowed from other pre existing stories can not be proven. Offer me a contraction scripture, wher the bible (in context) contradicts itself. Do you belive in absolutes? I must say I read your list of religous readings, impressive.