Unanswered Cardiovascular support while on AAS

CroLifter

Active member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
I thought it would be a good idea to start a thread about cardiovascular support supplements an individual can and should use while using anabolic steroids. I don't want to come off as a smart-ass, but I believe thread like this should be a sticky.
I am not saying that this thread is so well written that it should be a sticky, but surely, if someone more educated on the matter has the time and the will to do it, it would be very nice of him/her. Definitely the most dangerous deleterious effect of AAS is the damage they do to the cardiovascular system.
We often hear people talking about liver support supplements, but we don't hear too often the talk about supplements which could lessen the damage AAS use places on our cardiovascular system.
So here I will name a few and everyone else is invited to share their experience and knowledge when it comes those supplements and drugs.

Obviously, doing cardio, keeping your blood pressure under control, keeping your hemoglobin and hematocrit in reference range via blood donation/lowering of the doses is important. Doing an ECG or a whole day (even the 7 day) heart study where you wear that device all the time is something every prospecting user should look into.

Fish oil - may lower triglycerides and raise HDL (particularly in women, but there may be hope)

Green Tea - shown to raise HDL, lowers fasting LDL
[/URL]

Coenzyme q10 - may be protective to those with congestive heart failure

Cialis - lowers blood pressure, but not by much (but has other benefits :) )

Cardarine - very favourable effects on both HDL and LDL

So these are the ones I am currently aware of right away, feel free to add more and comment as I feel this is a very important topic, should be much more important than shut down, impotence and infertility issues we commonly discuss.

We know that AAS lead to the weakening of the heart muscle and consecutively to heart failure and sudden cardiac death. Maybe there is something that delays the thickening of the walls of our heart (other than keeping blood pressure under control of course)?

I think that something that would act like a SERM does, something like a SARM which could selectively attach itself to the heart and prevent androgens from attaching themselves instead and therefore inhibit the androgens from stimulating heart hypertrophy and undesirable changes would be the holy grail. This needs more research.
 
Last edited:

jrock645

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
Aged garlic and ubiquinol are ones i use in addition to above. Along with krill oil.
 
3clipseGT

3clipseGT

On my grind
Awards
4
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
Bergamot
Krill oil
Curcumin
Arjuna

These are a few I would recommend.
 

timberx

Member
Awards
1
  • First Up Vote
Celery seeds
Hawthorn Berry

I would also add these two, I think they are good for lowering blood pressure.
 
Old Witch

Old Witch

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
  • RockStar
  • Best Answer
Well, sarms themselves don’t attach to the heart and cause hypertrophy.

That’s part of how they are selective.

Also, weight training itself causes left ventricular hypertrophy.


I suppose you could ask Lee Priest what he did his whole life, since he apparently has only 1mm total thickening of the left ventricle.

I think a lot of natty powerlifters probably have worse hearts.
 
Old Witch

Old Witch

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
  • RockStar
  • Best Answer
#1 thing I will say about heart health is DONT PUSH.

Do not use your “blood push” when lifting heavy, if you’re a bodybuilder.

Keep composed and calm, relax the blood.
 

CroLifter

Active member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
#1 thing I will say about heart health is DONT PUSH.

Do not use your “blood push” when lifting heavy, if you’re a bodybuilder.

Keep composed and calm, relax the blood.
What do you mean exactly by that? You mean like being all aggressive and getting amped up?

As far as Lee Prisest goes, that is very interesting, prvodued of course thst is a correct information. I guess he is just genetically lucky in that regard.
 
Old Witch

Old Witch

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
  • RockStar
  • Best Answer
What do you mean exactly by that? You mean like being all aggressive and getting amped up?

As far as Lee Prisest goes, that is very interesting, prvodued of course thst is a correct information. I guess he is just genetically lucky in that regard.
It’s hard to explain the inner push if you don’t just outright understand the concept. You can lift, without pushing, or you can push... but you’re squeezing your blood is what you’re doing. Usually this is when your face will turn red and veins all pop out and stuff. I definitely train with aggression and vigor, definitely perform each lift with authority. A man should always train with authority. but I try not to use that push. Ever.

As far as Lee Priest, well it’s his own word so either you trust it or you don’t.

He mentions it off and on when it comes up on the RX Muscle YouTube channel when he’s on.
 
BarryScott

BarryScott

Member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
Are you talking about the valsalva maneuver? I do that basically every rep. D:
 
Old Witch

Old Witch

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
  • RockStar
  • Best Answer
Are you talking about the valsalva maneuver? I do that basically every rep. D:
I think it’s what the valsalva maneuver is intended to produce in individuals not aware of this ability outright. So yes.

When I do use it, or accidentally find myself doing it, it’s during the braced part of the breath, so the breath is held fully.

Just sitting there, you should be able to tense up your thoracic cavity and push blood up to your head and turn your face red, without lifting. Breathing or not. That’s what I’m talking about. You do that during a lift and it’s terrible for your heart.

Most guys do when they go heavy, as a natural instinct, to aid in the lift. Because it does.

That’s why I say bodybuilders should not do it, we train more often and with higher volume than powerlifters. It will do more damage to us than a powerlifter over a shorter period of time.
 
Old Witch

Old Witch

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
  • RockStar
  • Best Answer
Incidentally, Franco Columbu was notorious for holding his breath during full sets. I wonder how his heart looks.
 

CroLifter

Active member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
Well, sarms themselves don’t attach to the heart and cause hypertrophy.

That’s part of how they are selective.
I was actually contemplating about a substance which would behave like a SERM does, ie. attach itself to the receptor and instead of being there to deliberately exhibit the effecs that come with stimulating the receptor, it would merely attach itself to the androgen receptor in the cardiac muscle to prevent true androgens (testosterone etc.) from attaching themselves and exhibiting their deleterious effects. In a way tamoxifen prevents real estrogen from attaching itself to receptors in breast tissue.



Well, Franco Columbu seems to be lucky in that regard. He is 77 and still alive.
 
BarryScott

BarryScott

Member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
Incidentally, Franco Columbu was notorious for holding his breath during full sets. I wonder how his heart looks.
Jim Wendler also says he often holds his breath until the third or fourth rep while benching.

When I first started lifting as a teen I did the whole inhale-during-eccentric-exhale-during-concentric thing (which I still do for isolation movements or high rep sets), and had to consciously unlearn it when I started doing heavier, low rep stuff years later.
 
Old Witch

Old Witch

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
  • RockStar
  • Best Answer
I was actually contemplating about a substance which would behave like a SERM does, ie. attach itself to the receptor and instead of being there to deliberately exhibit the effecs that come with stimulating the receptor, it would merely attach itself to the androgen receptor in the cardiac muscle to prevent true androgens (testosterone etc.) from attaching themselves and exhibiting their deleterious effects. In a way tamoxifen prevents real estrogen from attaching itself to receptors in breast tissue.



Well, Franco Columbu seems to be lucky in that regard. He is 77 and still alive.
Well, estrogen itself attaches to the heart muscles and protects them from androgens... the receptors there aren’t the same as in skeletal muscle.

Again, I think actually avoiding the androgens outright would be the ideal. Simply using sarms or steroids not known for causing an enlarged heart.

And even more importantly, not doing what causes it in the first place.
 
BarryScott

BarryScott

Member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
What about actual cardio(vascular exercise)?
How big a role does that play and what kind of protocol is adequate for the protective benefits (as opposed to building endurance)?
 
Old Witch

Old Witch

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
  • RockStar
  • Best Answer
What about actual cardio(vascular exercise)?
How big a role does that play and what kind of protocol is adequate for the protective benefits (as opposed to building endurance)?
Endurance is part of the protective role cardiovascular exercise can play.

It’s pretty well documented that LISS cardio can actually reduce left ventricular hypertrophy.

30 minutes a day, every day. An hour is better. More is not.
 

CroLifter

Active member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
Well, estrogen itself attaches to the heart muscles and protects them from androgens... the receptors there aren’t the same as in skeletal muscle.

Again, I think actually avoiding the androgens outright would be the ideal. Simply using sarms or steroids not known for causing an enlarged heart.

And even more importantly, not doing what causes it in the first place.
So using sarms and steroids which are the least androgenic is ideal? I know that looking at a:a ratios is not everything. Masteron on paper looks like a weak androgen, yet in real life it is strongly androgenic.

@Old Witch right off the bat, if you don't mind, could you tell us, in your opinion, 2 steroids which have the least effect on the heart muscle and 2 that cause the most damage?
 
Old Witch

Old Witch

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
  • RockStar
  • Best Answer
I’ll give two injectables and two orals for each..

Least effect: Dihydroboldenone and low-mid dose testosterone, Anadrol, anavar.

Most effect: Nandrolone, Dianabol, Winstrol, and Trenbolone by far the worst.

Notable mentions for other peds both good and bad for the heart:

Clen - absolutely terrible

T3 - too much is not good

Cardarine - fantastic for the heart. Can reduce LVH, enhance endurance, correct lipid levels... very very good for the heart. Probably the best thing you could possibly take for the heart. Seriously.
 

jim2509

Active member
Awards
3
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
  • Established
I’ll give two injectables and two orals for each..

Least effect: Dihydroboldenone and low-mid dose testosterone, Anadrol, anavar.

Most effect: Nandrolone, Dianabol, Winstrol, and Trenbolone by far the worst.

Notable mentions for other peds both good and bad for the heart:

Clen - absolutely terrible

T3 - too much is not good

Cardarine - fantastic for the heart. Can reduce LVH, enhance endurance, correct lipid levels... very very good for the heart. Probably the best thing you could possibly take for the heart. Seriously.
That last bit about Cardarine...what do you reckon is the best dose 10 or 20 mg??
 

CroLifter

Active member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
I’ll give two injectables and two orals for each..

Least effect: Dihydroboldenone and low-mid dose testosterone, Anadrol, anavar.

Most effect: Nandrolone, Dianabol, Winstrol, and Trenbolone by far the worst.

Notable mentions for other peds both good and bad for the heart:

Clen - absolutely terrible

T3 - too much is not good

Cardarine - fantastic for the heart. Can reduce LVH, enhance endurance, correct lipid levels... very very good for the heart. Probably the best thing you could possibly take for the heart. Seriously.
I might start taking cardarine, i have heard a lot of good things about it. Along with Cialis for blood pressure.

So trenbolone even at a lowish dose of 150mg per week would be much more damaging to the heart than testosterone at 500mg per week? (Edit: it seems it would be more damaging than test, even at such a small dose)
What would be the highest test dose you would consider safe for the heart? (of course that duration has to be taken into account but lets shoot some rough numbers here, lets imagine that it is a standard 12 week blast/cycle)
And what about masteron?
Sorry if this is too many questions, but i really like masteron. Yeah its giving me panic attacks, tightness in chest (anxiety) but the aggression and motivation and outlook on life is fantastic.

Edit: You know what, i always wanted to try low dose tren but it seems that you guys are pointing me more in the dhb/trest direction. And I am happy to try those without ever trying tren. I have masteron for aggression and libido anyway 😎
 
Last edited:

CroLifter

Active member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
That last bit about Cardarine...what do you reckon is the best dose 10 or 20 mg??
So the cancer bit about cardarine doesn't concern you? I know that it was in rats, but usually when a drug causes nasty side effects in lab rats, its further testing in humans gets discontinued.

I know that i said i might start taking, but i havent made up my mind yet. I need to read more.
 
NoAddedHmones

NoAddedHmones

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
Most have been listed, but here is what I would suggest as good CV support:

Full spectrum Vitamin E, Ubiquinol, ALCAR, Bergamot, Arjuna (water extract), Telmisartan, adequate Vitamin D levels, Vitamin K2
 
Old Witch

Old Witch

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
  • RockStar
  • Best Answer
I might start taking cardarine, i have heard a lot of good things about it. Along with Cialis for blood pressure.

So trenbolone even at a lowish dose of 150mg per week would be much more damaging to the heart than testosterone at 500mg per week? (Edit: it seems it would be more damaging than test, even at such a small dose)
What would be the highest test dose you would consider safe for the heart? (of course that duration has to be taken into account but lets shoot some rough numbers here, lets imagine that it is a standard 12 week blast/cycle)
And what about masteron?
Sorry if this is too many questions, but i really like masteron. Yeah its giving me panic attacks, tightness in chest (anxiety) but the aggression and motivation and outlook on life is fantastic.

Edit: You know what, i always wanted to try low dose tren but it seems that you guys are pointing me more in the dhb/trest direction. And I am happy to try those without ever trying tren. I have masteron for aggression and libido anyway 😎
Tren definitely more toxic than test at any dose.

I couldn’t give a dose of test that acts as the cutoff because everyone is different but I’m sure more than a gram is going to be doing more harm than 500mg and under.

If you’re forcing me into a number, 750mg is what I wouldn’t exceed if I cared about my heart.
 

jim2509

Active member
Awards
3
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
  • Established
So the cancer bit about cardarine doesn't concern you? I know that it was in rats, but usually when a drug causes nasty side effects in lab rats, its further testing in humans gets discontinued.

I know that i said i might start taking, but i havent made up my mind yet. I need to read more.
No it doesnt, as its also been shown in research to prevent cancer. Getting a sun tan can cause cancer, smoking causes cancer, alcohol causes cancer, crappy food can cause cancer, living in high polluted areas can cause cancer so no it doesnt concern me.
 

Jeremyk1

Active member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
So the cancer bit about cardarine doesn't concern you? I know that it was in rats, but usually when a drug causes nasty side effects in lab rats, its further testing in humans gets discontinued.

I know that i said i might start taking, but i havent made up my mind yet. I need to read more.

Looks like it made it to phase 3 trials, no issues. Yet somehow a study in rats and a study in mice turn up showing carcinogenesis. But neither study was published. Kinda sketchy. I can’t find either after a brief search.
 

jim2509

Active member
Awards
3
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
  • Established

Looks like it made it to phase 3 trials, no issues. Yet somehow a study in rats and a study in mice turn up showing carcinogenesis. But neither study was published. Kinda sketchy. I can’t find either after a brief search.
i believe they combined it with another drug at crazy high dosages over a long period of time (104) days which showed carcinogenesis, but not when run on its own. I cant remember which research site i read that on though it was a while back or what the other drug was other than it began with the letter D.
 

Jeremyk1

Active member
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
i believe they combined it with another drug at crazy high dosages over a long period of time (104) days which showed carcinogenesis, but not when run on its own. I cant remember which research site i read that on though it was a while back or what the other drug was other than it began with the letter D.
104 weeks actually. 2 years. Yeah I’m not sure about details either, neither was published. I couldn’t find the actual research other than being referenced in the article I posted.
 
SpicedCider

SpicedCider

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
I read something a few months ago about nebivolol possibly being able to prevent AAS-induced LVH.
 
Outofbody

Outofbody

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
#1 thing I will say about heart health is DONT PUSH.

Do not use your “blood push” when lifting heavy, if you’re a bodybuilder.

Keep composed and calm, relax the blood.
Do you mean relax the nerves? Blood doesn't have feelings :)
 
hairygrandpa

hairygrandpa

Legend
Awards
5
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
Single best compound: Telmisartan

Quote:
A little known side benefit to the class of antihypertensive drugs known as angiotensin II receptor blockersis that they enhance insulin sensitivity, increase utilization of fat as energy, and improve mitochondrial function.5,7,13,38,39,100 Of all the drugs in this class, Telmisartan stands out as superior for potential longevity enhancement.101-103

As humans age, mitochondrial dysfunction becomes a deadly factor in the development of obesity, insulin resistance, endothelial breakdown, and type II diabetes.104-109 Telmisartan helps correct these underlying mechanisms of aging and death (as do many of the nutrients Life Extension® members already take).

Telmisartan activates a regulator of cellular energy called PPAR-gamma coactivator 1 alpha (PGC-1a), which stimulates the burning of excess calories.110,111 This can be a crucial factor in weight management.

Studies indicate that telmisartan directly stimulates PPAR-gamma (peroxisome proliferator-activated receptor gamma), a key inducer of beneficial metabolic effects.112-114 PPAR-gamma activating properties have also been reported for other angiotensin II receptor blocker drugs, but telmisartan is at least 10 times more powerful.112

Telmisartan has been shown in preclinical models to reduce weight gain, increase total energy expenditure, and increase expression of key mitochondrial enzymes in skeletal muscle better than a more popular drug in this class (Diovan®).7,13,39,115-117

Atherosclerosis remains a leading killer of Americans.118 Telmisartan functions by multiple mechanisms to protect against arterial occlusion,119-121 including increasing beneficial endothelial nitric oxide.39,122,123

Lastly, telmisartan appears to promote biochemical, biological, and metabolic effects that some researchers have suggested could boost athletic performance.112




Good summary here:
https://www.lifeextension.com/Magazine/2015/3/Best-Drug-To-Treat-Hypertension/Page-01
 
hairygrandpa

hairygrandpa

Legend
Awards
5
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
Second best -or in conjunction with 80mg/d Telmisartan:

10mg Tadalafil E3D.
-Vasodilation = lowers BP a bit, ups blood flow = enhanced transport of oxygen, nutrients to muscles = faster recovery = bigger muscles
-also: great pump in gym
 

SuppBro

Member
Awards
0
I'm pretty impressed by the ingredients in Controlled Labs Orange Beat since all of these popped up in my research and one product contains them all. I might make this a staple.

Shilajit
Bergomot
Garlic Bulb
COQ10
 
ChocolateClen

ChocolateClen

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
I'm pretty impressed by the ingredients in Controlled Labs Orange Beat since all of these popped up in my research and one product contains them all. I might make this a staple.

Shilajit
Bergomot
Garlic Bulb
COQ10
I just bought that, will be trying it out along with boron and zinc added in as extras. How’s it taste? Like ass or like something half decent?
 

SuppBro

Member
Awards
0
I just bought that, will be trying it out along with boron and zinc added in as extras. How’s it taste? Like ass or like something half decent?
Haven't got it yet. I recently discovered this so I'm just looking for a sale to stock up a 3 month supply to start with.
 
Resolve10

Resolve10

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
I'm pretty impressed by the ingredients in Controlled Labs Orange Beat since all of these popped up in my research and one product contains them all. I might make this a staple.

Shilajit
Bergomot
Garlic Bulb
COQ10
This is another good option! Controlled Labs Orange series in general just got a huge boost in products and covers a wide range of things depending on what health angle you need.
 
Hyde

Hyde

Legend
Awards
5
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
Oh I was talking about the orange + greens version lol
The orange flavor is alright but usually I just toss it back vs sipping it. The lemon iced tea is better if you want it to be your sole drink with your meal.

Don’t use AAS or anything similar, but based on what many people look for Morphogen Nutrition Morphoprime covers a lot bases (plus more) in this regard.
Haven’t looked at price, but this is indeed a great stack. Honestly it would combo really well WITH Orange Beat.
 
ChocolateClen

ChocolateClen

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
The orange flavor is alright but usually I just toss it back vs sipping it. The lemon iced tea is better if you want it to be your sole drink with your meal.



Haven’t looked at price, but this is indeed a great stack. Honestly it would combo really well WITH Orange Beat.
I’m probably gonna just dump it in my mouth and wash with water unless it works better mixed beforehand. I don’t know why it wouldn’t though
 
Matthersby

Matthersby

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • RockStar
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
Just messaged my doctor about telmisartan. I’m intrigued. With things like this, one could use Cardarine sparingly and get some impressive cholesterol values.
 
Hyde

Hyde

Legend
Awards
5
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
Just messaged my doctor about telmisartan. I’m intrigued. With things like this, one could use Cardarine sparingly and get some impressive cholesterol values.
@hairygrandpa may have had great experiences with this, if I remember right?
 
ChocolateClen

ChocolateClen

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
I’m probably gonna just dump it in my mouth and wash with water unless it works better mixed beforehand. I don’t know why it wouldn’t though
HOKY FUARK this **** tastes no bueno. It’s like an orange but stuffed with green nasty veggies. Not a fan, if it helps long term though it’ll be worth it.
 
Hyde

Hyde

Legend
Awards
5
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
  • Best Answer
  • First Up Vote
HOKY FUARK this **** tastes no bueno. It’s like an orange but stuffed with green nasty veggies. Not a fan, if it helps long term though it’ll be worth it.
Did you try it as a drink? In my opinion there’s an optimal level of water. Would not dry shoot it.
 

Similar threads


Top