Bulk Cissus in stock

[Robboe]

USP neither invented Cissus nor produced the research that lay hold to its claims of bioactive properties. They simply took a natural, God-created plant used for hundreds of years and recently substantiated by modern science into an arena catering to our desires. There is no innovation there. Perhaps if they had synthesized a chemical constituent of a substance or created a completely new compound, then you could cast dispersions at Matt. But don't come into his forum he pays to have sponsored, broadcasting your condescending opinions of him and his practices. You could have handled this matter privately in a manner becoming a gentleman, but instead you chose to cast stones in the midst of the public in a feeble attempt to shine a negative light upon our faithful friend. I expected much more from you, Rob.

Innovation is more than just finding something new. Innovation can include the research into an existing compound and marketing it for a specific reason, or putting a twist upon it that no one else has done so in the past.

Cissus may have been around for millenia, but without USP bringing it to the market for bodybuilding and fitness, it may be years until someone did - if they ever did.

Creating a new market IS innovation.

 

[Robboe]

But don't come into his forum he pays to have sponsored, broadcasting your condescending opinions of him and his practices. You could have handled this matter privately in a manner becoming a gentleman, but instead you chose to cast stones in the midst of the public in a feeble attempt to shine a negative light upon our faithful friend.

By the way, i am "shinning a negative light" on everyone's support as well as him.

I'm not taking this personally, because i've had nothing of my own "knocked-off", but i find it a bit disappointing.

 

[TheCrownedOne]

So those first to market a product in an "innovative" manner should be the only ones allowed to sell it under said guise? I believe that's called a monopoly and is far more damaging than any knock-off could be.
Would there be any problem if Matt started selling Cissus and USP had never marketed it as a performance aid? After all, as many have said and alluded to there have been numerous sellers of Cissus for years now. Are they now in the wrong because of USP, because they continue to sell Cissus?
Look at Matt's description:

Our Cissus powder has a 6% ketosterone level...one of the highest extract yields we are aware of.
Cissus quadrangularis is an adaptogenic herb from India containing bio-active saponins, and has been used for hundreds of years and shown in numerous clinical studies to speed the healing of bone fractures and dramatically reduce joint inflammation and pain. Because CQ has anabolic ketosterols, it is now included in many body building and pro-testosterone supplements that promote lean muscle mass.
Recommended dose is 1 gram two times daily or as directed by your physician.

No where in his description does he specifically advertise it in a manner like USP. He simply noted what research has shown it to be useful for while asserting that it has been included in bodybuilding products. He is stating a fact, not saying "Buy this because it will help you build muscle just like Invalid Link Removed, USP Labs' product" like many "generic" brand products do.

You know going into this business that there are no nice guys. No one is going to pass up an opportunity to sell a popular ingredient for a lower price than the primary seller, especially considering that even if he did that both he and the business would be in no better condition. That's a risk you take being the first to bring to market something in a new light. You create a demand for it, others step up to meet that demand, challenging your market share and business because they are able to sell it for less than you. You are now faced with the choice to either adapt or die - it's survival of the fittest. It forces the market to continue to adapt and grow, to bring out new products than will take the attention away from the one they just lost. Just because someone markets something in an "innovative" way or whatever the buzz-word is doesn't mean that they should be the only ones allowed to sell that substance. Like I said before, things are a little different when it's a brand new substance that was originally created by the initial seller, but Cissus isn't. USP didn't even do the research on Cissus. They probably read abstracts of published studies and inferred an opportunity to market cissus to a new audience. In your eyes they should be no less in the wrong than Matt because they didn't discover or market cissus first either.

 

[Robboe]

So those first to market a product in an "innovative" manner should be the only ones allowed to sell it under said guise? I believe that's called a monopoly and is far more damaging than any knock-off could be.
Would there be any problem if Matt started selling Cissus and USP had never marketed it as a performance aid?

Were it not for USP, i sincerely doubt Matt would have even heard of cissus.

That's a risk you take being the first to bring to market something in a new light. You create a demand for it, others step up to meet that demand, challenging your market share and business because they are able to sell it for less than you. You are now faced with the choice to either adapt or die - it's survival of the fittest. It forces the market to continue to adapt and grow, to bring out new products than will take the attention away from the one they just lost.

This is kinda my point - the industry is NOT heading in this direction. Like i said, Avant have all but given up on designing new, innovative products. Some other companies, and i expect we (DS) will likely follow suit, have begun to resort to encrypted labelling and proprietary mixes. I'm not a fan of it, but such is the evolution.

No doubt we'll get **** for it though.

 

[TheCrownedOne]

Were it not for USP, i sincerely doubt Matt would have even heard of cissus.

Well, that's your opinion that you're entitled to, but it's a moot point since there's no way of knowing whether or not that's true. But you carefully avoided the real questions I asked.

This is kinda my point - the industry is NOT heading in this direction. Like i said, Avant have all but given up on designing new, innovative products. Some other companies, and i expect we (DS) will likely follow suit, have begun to resort to encrypted labelling and proprietary mixes. I'm not a fan of it, but such is the evolution.

No doubt we'll get **** for it though.

So because someone could take your market from you for a certain product you should just refrain from releasing new, innovative products altogether? Wow, that's an awesome idea. That's like saying the only way to win is to not play - it's inane.

 

[CDB]

This is kinda my point - the industry is NOT heading in this direction. Like i said, Avant have all but given up on designing new, innovative products. Some other companies, and i expect we (DS) will likely follow suit, have begun to resort to encrypted labelling and proprietary mixes. I'm not a fan of it, but such is the evolution.

Business can suck, can't it? I spend 8 hours a day trying to meet ridiculous requests from clients who constantly ask for things that are way out of scope of their contracts. But, we have to deliver. Such is business. I'm no fan of proprietery mixes and obscure labeling either, but if that's the practice you need or think you need to follow to maintain your business, go for it. I'm still buying your stuff.

As for the point of monopoly Crowned brought up, I don't think Rob was suggesting these sellers get exclusive rights to sell or market the products they develop, or at least nothing beyond current patent protections, etc. I think his point is some businesses, and I wouldn't include CNW here, are shady and piggy back on the research of other companies.

Unfortunate? Yeah, but it is the way things work. In my opinion that's what keeps the innovations coming, the constant need for companies to bring something new to market and differentiate themselves from the flock.

I also think he was offerring a general criticism of consumers, in that if they like all these new products they should offer as much support as possible to the companies that bring them to market and not the knock-off companies. In this I'd say he's right, that is a good thing overall. With few exceptions it's what I do. For a finished Cissus or forskolin product I'd go with USP even if it lead to slightly higher cost. The only time I wouldn't would be if someone offerred something of the same quality at a much lower cost, or if someone had a demonstrably better product in some way. But that's not necessarily the market trend according to Rob and I'm in no position to refute that as I have no idea.

What I do know is this: unrestrained price competition for generic products leads to Wal Mart, for lack of a better explanation. Anonymous service, bland and generic products, and little if anything new. I think my point would be the innovators in other markets tend to survive in those markets despite the Wal Marts, perhaps in fewer numbers, and I don't see that the supplement market would be any different. There's a place for everyone, and as long as things are left alone the market will find the right balance to please most consumers most of the time.

As to whether that balance would please me, I have no idea. It'll work itself out and in the end I'm sure I'll find what I need for the most part.

 

[DAdams91982]

You know... Anabolicminds was built one the notion of saving a buck on stuff by homebrewing. A place where you can get information on what to do with compounds if you bought them in bulk. Back then it was newer Prohormones... Well gone are those days... so it shifted elsewhere.

Robboe... Your attitude is bringing a negative light toward who you represent. Either way you are not contributing to this thread, and believe you should stay out of customs paid area.

Adams

 

[custom]

I still don't think we're on the same page here...

I could take the cissus, TTA, 7-Hydroxy powder and all other "generics" and cap them, put an ink jet label on it and sell it for 1/2 of the name brand products and make a decent amount of cash...but I do not. I cater to a different market of buyers. This is a small niche, those who like bulk items.

BTW, thanks keeping the peanut gallery comments to a minimum in the last post by implying my dullness in not knowing what cissus is save for USP labs. Aren't you Brits supposed to be polite?

I doubt I will post again in this thread, so have fun.

 

[drunk]

This is kinda my point - the industry is NOT heading in this direction. Like i said, Avant have all but given up on designing new, innovative products. Some other companies, and i expect we (DS) will likely follow suit, have begun to resort to encrypted labelling and proprietary mixes. I'm not a fan of it, but such is the evolution.

No doubt we'll get **** for it though.

Whether or not it's DS or Avant, someone will be innovating and it'll most likely be a newer, smaller company trying to make a name for themselves. Besides people won't miss what they don't know they're missing. If nobody brings anything new to market, most people won't notice. Nobody was clamoring for a better creatine, then CEE came out. If CEE never came out, everyone would still be taking regular monhydrate and would be happy with it.

Speaking of CEE, from your agrument shouldn't we only be buying CE2 from MRI and not buy Xceed? You can really apply this argument to a lot of products.

Anyways I think I'm going to buy me some Cissus from Matt now. Let my negative light shine on!

 

[DmitryWI]

Aren't you Brits supposed to be polite?

LOL :nutkick:

 

[BigVrunga]

Im psyched that Custom is carrying bulk Cissus - I dont see what everyone is complaining about. Plenty of people are still going to buy from USP - like those who dont want to spend a few hours on their weekend capping their own supps.

I dont see what all the whining is about, you can buy bulk , standardized Cissus from plenty of sources.

BV

 

[Puerto Rico]

whats with the capping....to avoid taste....what about,,,mucuna L dopa// coconut oil/// peak atp/// nettle root extract,,avena stavia,,,dodder seed,,aswanda,,dim.. xanthopamelia scabrosa...all extract

 

[ersatz]

Robboe just uses Cissus to cover his real resentment over the fact that CNW offers TTA. :0 Okay, all kidding aside I can understand the frustration that DS and other "innovative" companies face. They assume practically all the risk, researching and sourcing products, then marketing. If the product sucks then it dies but if it's a success then clones are abound. I wouldn't call this innovation but can see their POV. Hence we see the use or proprietary blends and their inherent drawbacks. If companies really wanted to protect their "innovations" then why not go the patent route? Yeah, I hear the constant bemoaning of that process but it appears to work. Look at Molecular Nutrition and their X-Factor/Arachidonic Acid product. It should be easy to offer a knock-off or bulk powder yet no one has, even though many have a strong dislike for the owner and would love to stick it to him.

 

[CROWLER]

Well I will throw my 2 cents in here.

When I see a board members name in green and I know that is a board sponsor because I am one

But to be honest if the person's board name is not also the name of their company I have NO CLUE which company they own or work for. Then I see people saying Matt's company and this guys company and I am completely lost.

I actually have had about zero interaction with any of the board sponsors except for having made some purchases from them and been VERY pleased with them.

What I do think is that other board sponsors should be respectful on another sponsors thread. Like ya grama should have told ya if you don't have anything nice to say stay out of their thread.

Bobo doesn't like members who make bad comments about a sponsor and I would think the same applies doubly to sponsors who IMO should be held to an even higher standard.

So guys I am just asking let's be respectfull of each other and if you have something insulting you want to say about another board sponsor take it to PMs.


CROWLER

 

[Robboe]

. But you carefully avoided the real questions I asked.

You asked three questions.

1. So those first to market a product in an "innovative" manner should be the only ones allowed to sell it under said guise?

-- Only if law protects. Note that i can't stop anyone from running the business model that Matt follows, i am just voicing my disappointed at such practice.

2. Would there be any problem if Matt started selling Cissus and USP had never marketed it as a performance aid?

-- Then he would be the innovator, for want of better words, and power to him for doing the research. This is my point.

3. Are they now in the wrong because of USP, because they continue to sell Cissus?

-- I'm guessing "they" is Matt here, and again i reiterate, this is just a business model i am disappointed with.

So because someone could take your market from you for a certain product you should just refrain from releasing new, innovative products altogether? Wow, that's an awesome idea. That's like saying the only way to win is to not play - it's inane.

This is apparently the route that Avant Labs are heading.

Cue a rebuttal from your good self...

 

[Robboe]

Business can suck, can't it? I spend 8 hours a day trying to meet ridiculous requests from clients who constantly ask for things that are way out of scope of their contracts. But, we have to deliver. Such is business. I'm no fan of proprietery mixes and obscure labeling either, but if that's the practice you need or think you need to follow to maintain your business, go for it. I'm still buying your stuff.

I'm not referring to me or DS in particular. A lot of companies are following suit.

You think Patrick Arnold will ever disclose exactly what "geranium oil extract" really is?

[quoe]
I also think he was offerring a general criticism of consumers, in that if they like all these new products they should offer as much support as possible to the companies that bring them to market and not the knock-off companies. In this I'd say he's right, that is a good thing overall. With few exceptions it's what I do. For a finished Cissus or forskolin product I'd go with USP even if it lead to slightly higher cost. The only time I wouldn't would be if someone offerred something of the same quality at a much lower cost, or if someone had a demonstrably better product in some way. But that's not necessarily the market trend according to Rob and I'm in no position to refute that as I have no idea.
[/quote]

I would have honestly not said anything, had it not been for the recent spate of threads requests asking for the main constituents in brand new products and such. I saw the thread asking for the main active in ALRI's Retain and it dawned on me that people want innovation, but they're not prepared to support the people/companies who do the ground work for it.

its disappointing.

 

[Robboe]

Robboe... Your attitude is bringing a negative light toward who you represent. Either way you are not contributing to this thread, and believe you should stay out of customs paid area.

You really think so?

This is my opinion based on what i've learned this past year. I never realised just how much goes into product research, design, sourcing bottling and labelling, nor how costly releasing and advertising a new product really is.

My opinion is not necessarily shared by those i work with.

 

[Robboe]

Aren't you Brits supposed to be polite?

Yes, sorry. I usually am.

Apologies for all derogatory comments directed towards you, sir.

 

[Guest]

This is really the only point.

Cissus has been available in bulk since well before the web existed.

Harjor/Cissus has been available from every bulk herb store since they existed.

Having read about it eons ago, I was surprised to see it resurface.

And I count count on one hand the market percentage of people who buy bulk powders and cap them.

The truth is, CNW fills a small void that was once occupied by Black Star Labs, Designer Supplements, and Kilo Sports.

These companies have changed business models precisely b/c they know there's much more money in finished product.

CNW is well-loved among the small group of people who do still buy bulk powder, and for good reason.

BTW: Oh yes, the days when I bought ass-tons of M1T, MDien, M-Anything from DS....Just opened another brown envelope of M4OHN today

RE: First to market...I think DS was first with MDien and M1,4, if I'm not mistaken.

Every compound has been available to the masses its the company that spends research, advertising, and marketing money to introduce a previously exisiting compound to the market that would of never made it to the market.

I wish Matt the best in his efforts to make money and karma wins at the end.

 

[Robboe]

If companies really wanted to protect their "innovations" then why not go the patent route? Yeah, I hear the constant bemoaning of that process but it appears to work. Look at Molecular Nutrition and their X-Factor/Arachidonic Acid product.

We have a patent on 7OH, but unfortunately it can only do so much.

 

[Guest]

USP neither invented Cissus nor produced the research that lay hold to its claims of bioactive properties. They simply took a natural, God-created plant used for hundreds of years and recently substantiated by modern science into an arena catering to our desires. There is no innovation there. Perhaps if they had synthesized a chemical constituent of a substance or created a completely new compound, then you could cast dispersions at Matt. But don't come into his forum he pays to have sponsored, broadcasting your condescending opinions of him and his practices. You could have handled this matter privately in a manner becoming a gentleman, but instead you chose to cast stones in the midst of the public in a feeble attempt to shine a negative light upon our faithful friend. I expected much more from you, Rob.

You speak as if you know. Our extraction process is unique and without the extraction process, we could not apply for a patent. In this industry, I'm aware of the copy cats (not customs) so we are a step ahead of innovation. Innovation is finding an novel compound with a new application.

Funny, how many insiders we have in this business