Dustin07
Legend
It seems like everything is trending the right direction though...
Building Back Up
- Thread starter GreenMachineX
- Start date
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
lol yes, it was a struggle with the 1mL, but a little better with the smaller ones. You’re doing 20mg every day???Ah, I see, I was just curious trying to play it out in my head. I am doing 20mg and it isn't much oil so cutting doses that close seems like it would be a bit difficult to be exact in my head. I would definitely need to dawn my readers to pull that accurately!
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
For sure. I’m definitely pleased with my progress.its more the OCD messing with my head that I didn’t get that final rep lol
Hyde
Legend
You ask that like it’s surprising you to hear someone would use 140mg/wk over daily administrations for TRT
MrKleen73
Legend
Yes Sir, it probably works out to 120mg most weeks and 140mg when I am on top of it. I tend to forget a day every once in a while. I imagine it sounds like a lot to you, but your 56-60mg a week sounds super low to me as well. Kind of wild how we all process it at such different rates.
Yeah, I think I might know of someone else who does this too.You ask that like it’s surprising you to hear someone would use 140mg/wk over daily administrations for TRT
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Well, depends on the goal…TRT or TRT+, right?You ask that like it’s surprising you to hear someone would use 140mg/wk over daily administrations for TRT
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
But, why bother with daily if you can tolerate upper limit levels and sides aren’t an issue? Why not just bolus once or twice per week?You ask that like it’s surprising you to hear someone would use 140mg/wk over daily administrations for TRT
MrKleen73
Legend
No, 140mg a week might be upper end of regular TRT but definitely not TRT+, my doc actually prescribes 150mg a week, and my levels are normally in a high normal range when i do my TRT bloodwork.
You avoid the troughs, get less aromatization to estrogen, and levels are just far more steady. It is just more optimal if you don't mind the extra shots. Sometimes I do get tired of the daily shots, but I definitely prefer the stability. I noticed moodiness and increased aggression on occasion after the bolus shots as well and I prefer to avoid that.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
How long have you been doing 20mg daily? You’re free T was only upper end of normal on 20mg daily?
Hyde
Legend
TRT is what puts you into physiological testosterone ranges, and ideally also has you feeling relatively good/vital. TRT+ would be doses putting in excess of top of range for total t, and/or adding hormones besides testosterone or the neurosteroids DHEA & Pregnenolone.
140mg is an extremely common TRT dose. Anything 100-200 is very normal to see prescribed. And the idea that the milligram of dosage is directly correlated to X blood level for most is naive (or that people would even feel the same at similar blood levels, for that matter). People metabolize drugs differently for many different reasons. 300/wk with daily dosing puts me at 1,500ng/dl - the 140mg I’d been using had me 7-800ng/DL. Perfectly legitimate true TRT. When I first started cruising 5 years ago, I had less muscle - 150/wk over daily shots had me over 1,000ng/dl with l-carnitine.
Daily administration lessens estrogen conversion. The more you aromatize, the more frequently administration will aid minimizing estrogen spikes or the need for AI, as well as keeping SHBG higher & hematocrit lower on same total weekly dose (marginally).
So whether physiological range or big doses, it can smooth things out and eliminate the peaks and valleys.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Agreed on all that, except 20mg daily > 140mg once per week…it’s in the studies and anecdotal feedback on other forums. When you dose 21mg daily for a weekly dose totaling 150mg, what’s your free T?
It’s been years, and won’t risk going back to it given how sensitive I am to anything different. But, my dosing response/question/clarification wasn’t based on my experience, it was from what I see on other forums.
Last edited:
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Weight: 208.4
Haven’t fully committed, but highly considering a 1RM of squat today since it’s been 2 years at a much lower weight.
Haven’t fully committed, but highly considering a 1RM of squat today since it’s been 2 years at a much lower weight.
Hyde
Legend
So that first part you mentioned about studies is misleading. If you dose daily and draw blood to check total t at trough (right before the next shot), you won’t see as low of a trough because things are so stable - the lowest low is higher. While if you bolus dose weekly and check T at trough, it will be much lower. If you checked 24 hours after the bolus (same interval as the pull at trough for daily administration) it would be much higher.
Daily shots also have a shorter terminal half-life - the drug is metabolized out more effectively. So it never reaches the same peak blood concentrations & actually has less effect on promoting higher muscle mass. It can just be more tolerable for the user, which is especially relevant if lifestyle is a leading factor for TRT use. Said another way, bolus shots are better for bodybuilding, but people should do what they like the most so they can be consistent and feel well.
I never check free t. I also rarely check total - the life of a blast & cruiser is to know hormonal flux. Trying to worry about constants is a bit silly when e2, SHBG, t levels and other androgens are in/out so frequently.
Get after it!!!
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Squat 1RM 395! Let’s go!
Had my daughter take a video of 375 and 395. 375 was clearly exactly parallel, but 395 was iffy. I’ve asked a couple friends who workout (not actual powerlifters but they should know) and they said it was parallel. I’m a little hesitant to claim it would legitimately pass in a meet, but it was close enough to be proud of.
Had my daughter take a video of 375 and 395. 375 was clearly exactly parallel, but 395 was iffy. I’ve asked a couple friends who workout (not actual powerlifters but they should know) and they said it was parallel. I’m a little hesitant to claim it would legitimately pass in a meet, but it was close enough to be proud of.
Shadowblaze
Active member
Great PR bro, good job!
akboom87
Well-known member
Congrats man that is awesome
Hyde
Legend
Congratulations on a big day!
Something we talk about at the barbell club (where everyone competes in powerlifting) is at least being a good “gym lift”. Beyond the strict rules of competition, the heart & soul of powerlifting is just trying to lift heavy as we can. If you are proud of the lift, if it meant a lot to you, it’s important to us. The benches don’t have to be paused, it still counts if someone pulled with straps - it’s the effort that speaks volumes.
The gym owner’s son did his first 405 squat the other month. It was absolutely for sure high, several inches - and I’ve seen him squat to depth well in contest many times. But it was still a big moment after years of work, and it was definitely a good “gym lift”
Something we talk about at the barbell club (where everyone competes in powerlifting) is at least being a good “gym lift”. Beyond the strict rules of competition, the heart & soul of powerlifting is just trying to lift heavy as we can. If you are proud of the lift, if it meant a lot to you, it’s important to us. The benches don’t have to be paused, it still counts if someone pulled with straps - it’s the effort that speaks volumes.
The gym owner’s son did his first 405 squat the other month. It was absolutely for sure high, several inches - and I’ve seen him squat to depth well in contest many times. But it was still a big moment after years of work, and it was definitely a good “gym lift”
Segansational
Well-known member
Nice job Green! As Hyde said, count it.
Re: TRT testing - when actually is the optimal time to test if you wanted to look at levels? Is it an hour or two post-bolus injection? At the midway point between doses, at the end? Basically how do you know what levels you are achieving as I imagine timing will really skew that data.
Re: TRT testing - when actually is the optimal time to test if you wanted to look at levels? Is it an hour or two post-bolus injection? At the midway point between doses, at the end? Basically how do you know what levels you are achieving as I imagine timing will really skew that data.
Hyde
Legend
Typically drawn at bottom/trough levels, right before you would normally administer a shot.
Then you see the lowest low.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Standing OHP 4 x 5/5/5/4 x 150
T-Bar Row 4 x 5/5/5/6 x 120
CG Bench 4 x 5/5/4/4 x 185
Pull-ups 5/4/4
DB Lateral Raise 3 sets
Feeling a little beat up and achy all over despite not being in too much of a deficit and sleeping better then I have for a while. Still did decent on OHP and T-Bar row, but cg bench is down from last week. Next vacation planned June 20th which will include no training for 1 week. Just continue to grind until then, or maybe deload now?
T-Bar Row 4 x 5/5/5/6 x 120
CG Bench 4 x 5/5/4/4 x 185
Pull-ups 5/4/4
DB Lateral Raise 3 sets
Feeling a little beat up and achy all over despite not being in too much of a deficit and sleeping better then I have for a while. Still did decent on OHP and T-Bar row, but cg bench is down from last week. Next vacation planned June 20th which will include no training for 1 week. Just continue to grind until then, or maybe deload now?
Hyde
Legend
If you think you can probably remain productive until then & are not nursing any niggles, I’d keep pushing. If something is hurting or you have seen performance drop/decline for at least 2 weeks in a row (so not a natural ebb/flow where you have an off day or week occasionally), then it’s time to deload now.
Conversely, deloading preemptively can help keep you healthier, but you really are in a spot where if you take a light week now you will be off training after just 2 weeks of spooling up. So it’s not ideal for longterm progression.
Alternate ideas are just take 3-4 light days, not a full week of deload, or deload this week then absolutely overreach for the 2 weeks you have with unsustainable volume/intensity. If I train like an animal for 2 weeks, that’s usually all I need to start to break something
Don’t get hurt, but cranking volume 50% or something on everything can set you up nicely if you can handle life outside the gym as a zombie.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
I’ll take off Tuesday and Thursday, I’ll go a bit easier on squats and arms Wednesday. Then Friday/saturday hit it hardish? Then next week trainjng normally until vacay?If you think you can probably remain productive until then & are not nursing any niggles, I’d keep pushing. If something is hurting or you have seen performance drop/decline for at least 2 weeks in a row (so not a natural ebb/flow where you have an off day or week occasionally), then it’s time to deload now.
Conversely, deloading preemptively can help keep you healthier, but you really are in a spot where if you take a light week now you will be off training after just 2 weeks of spooling up. So it’s not ideal for longterm progression.
Alternate ideas are just take 3-4 light days, not a full week of deload, or deload this week then absolutely overreach for the 2 weeks you have with unsustainable volume/intensity. If I train like an animal for 2 weeks, that’s usually all I need to start to break something
Hyde
Legend
Yeah the shorty deload can be a good play here. You have 19 day til no training, so just taking a few easy days to circle the wagons up can be a good play before the last push. Then you have 15 days at this point to go.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Weight: 210.2
Kcal have been above little above maintenance the past couple days but tightening it back up now. All clean food, just too much. I love the performance and gains I’ve been getting, but I really need to buckle down.
Kcal have been above little above maintenance the past couple days but tightening it back up now. All clean food, just too much. I love the performance and gains I’ve been getting, but I really need to buckle down.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Deload squats, back extensions, shrugs, arms today. Nothing worth logging.
Got some more lab work back again.
RBC 6.05 (4.14-5.8)
HGB 18.2 (13.0-17.7)
HCT 54.6 (37.5-51)
So frustrating. Every time I think I’m on a good plan, blood thickens back up. I think I’ve said this before…If I use a TRT dose that allows me to stay in HCT/HBG range, I’m severely prone to anxiety and my BP is mildly elevated (140/80) but I sleep decently well. But if I use a dose that brings my e2 in range and free test in upper half of normal, my BP goes down, my anxiety improves dramatically, but my blood thickens up.
Got some more lab work back again.
RBC 6.05 (4.14-5.8)
HGB 18.2 (13.0-17.7)
HCT 54.6 (37.5-51)
So frustrating. Every time I think I’m on a good plan, blood thickens back up. I think I’ve said this before…If I use a TRT dose that allows me to stay in HCT/HBG range, I’m severely prone to anxiety and my BP is mildly elevated (140/80) but I sleep decently well. But if I use a dose that brings my e2 in range and free test in upper half of normal, my BP goes down, my anxiety improves dramatically, but my blood thickens up.
Hyde
Legend
These are probably my numbers right now, what I live it. I am not red. There are many guys who are red who don’t check their numbers; those guys are the ones who are at real risk. They are like 60 hematocrit.
What’s your ferritin? Start checking that if you don’t, so you understand your iron storage. Even if you don’t want to donate or get phlebotomy, if you have elevated ferritin, taking IP6 can lower absorbed iron and lessen blood building. You also want to limit vitamin c intake to only essential, ideally.
You can also supplement with Naringin to shave a point or two, and take larger doses of Nattokinase if you are worried over clotting. I take 2,000fu and 150mg pine bark extract each morning for cardiovascular health, but some guys take up to 12,000fu Nattokinase.
I would take what avoids anxiety and find a way to manage the blood; low e2 is also bad for cardiovascular longevity (anxiety & high BP will damage things over time) as well as neurological & emotional health.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Thanks. When you say you’re not red, do you literally mean you’re skin isn’t red from the excess hemoglobin?
MrKleen73
Legend
Yes, that is what he means. Some guys who are red will get kind of purple during or after a hard set. Sounds to me like you are more comfortable at higher levels, but the HCT frightens you out of that state. One question I have would be have you increased your water and electrolyte intake to try to resolve this instead of just cutting your testosterone? Higher BP is one of the concerns with high HCT levels but it sounds like you said yours goes down when you are in the zone. You might be able to drop things a bit by increasing water and electrolyte intake.
Oh yeah, I measured last night, I am 39.5 at the belly button and 49.25 around my chest at 220lbs right now.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Dustin07
Legend
do you remember what you were at competition on stage? I'd have to measure I think at naval I'm around 34" now (I could be lying to myself) but I've always worn 30s. I think I remember Dexter Jackson having 30" quads with a 28" waist measurement which was always mind blowing to me, him walking around with legs thicker than his waist like swinging tree trunks lol.
MrKleen73
Legend
I honestly did not measure my waist close to the show. I know my abs are coming in around 35-36 inches. I would guess I was around 33 but I really have no reference just based on how much fat I was holding compared to my fist contest. I will say that when I did my first show which I got MUCH leaner probably another 2% leaner, my waist (around navel) was probably 31, and I was able to wear 29 inch waist pants comfortably other than being tight in the legs.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
I haven’t had those waist measurements since I was 10…
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Flat Bench 4 x 5/5/4/4 x 240, 5 x 225
Pull-ups 5/4/4/3
GA Machine OHP 3 x 7/7/6 x 140
DB Lateral Raise 3 sets
Crossbody Cable Lat Raise 2 sets
Cable Pressdowns 3 sets
Bench dropping, so I added a 5th of 225 for 5. Feeling pretty achy and fatigued. Just gonna grind it out until vacation.
Pull-ups 5/4/4/3
GA Machine OHP 3 x 7/7/6 x 140
DB Lateral Raise 3 sets
Crossbody Cable Lat Raise 2 sets
Cable Pressdowns 3 sets
Bench dropping, so I added a 5th of 225 for 5. Feeling pretty achy and fatigued. Just gonna grind it out until vacation.
Last edited:
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Trapbar DL 5 x 3 x 365
T-Bar Row 6x90, 5x135, 4x145
Leg Curls 3 sets
Cable Shrugs 3 sets
DB Curls 3 sets
Facepulls 2 light sets
TBDL felt great, even though I was full of fatigue. Squatty form was spot on.
I need to figure something else out now. Physique is improving with my current set up, except rear delts which desperately need work. Well, side delts also, but the new cross body cable lateral raise has them quite sore today, so I’m on the right track there.
The issue with rear delts is whenever I work them with reverse pec dec, it aggravates my impingement and the left arm strength is literally cut 30% for days. I’m adding in facepulls today lightly, but any other suggestions?
T-Bar Row 6x90, 5x135, 4x145
Leg Curls 3 sets
Cable Shrugs 3 sets
DB Curls 3 sets
Facepulls 2 light sets
TBDL felt great, even though I was full of fatigue. Squatty form was spot on.
I need to figure something else out now. Physique is improving with my current set up, except rear delts which desperately need work. Well, side delts also, but the new cross body cable lateral raise has them quite sore today, so I’m on the right track there.
The issue with rear delts is whenever I work them with reverse pec dec, it aggravates my impingement and the left arm strength is literally cut 30% for days. I’m adding in facepulls today lightly, but any other suggestions?
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Weight: 213.6
Pizza, wings and ice cream last night. Frustrated by the lack of cut progress so figured I’d reset. Prolly won’t make any progress by vacation, or minimal at best, but considering we’re going out of country, I think this vacation won’t be so focused on eating like our Universal or other vacations in US trips. Last Poland trip I came back to the same weight I left within 2 days or something. Upper workout later.
Pizza, wings and ice cream last night. Frustrated by the lack of cut progress so figured I’d reset. Prolly won’t make any progress by vacation, or minimal at best, but considering we’re going out of country, I think this vacation won’t be so focused on eating like our Universal or other vacations in US trips. Last Poland trip I came back to the same weight I left within 2 days or something. Upper workout later.
Dustin07
Legend
Is Poland where you are going this time? I have never been to Europe, that sounds awesome!
I have never really liked reverse peck deck, probably for similar reasons to you, but I tend to throw in face pulls on bench days whenever I can for symmetry, and I feel like its a movement that I start to feel around rep 12, so I aim for 20 rep sets, usually a 3 x 20.
Do you remember Kleens rear db delt swings? I usually do those seated and maybe leaning forward, I've never done bench supported like this, but they really burn those rear delts
for side delts I think I have mostly always got what I needed/wanted by doing lateral db raises. sometimes I'll finish a set seated for a super strict set at lighter weight but generally I prefer them standing with a slight hinge at the hips so I can find "the spot" and I also like standing because I can use my body as a shock absorber on the heavier sets. its probably what some people would consider a cheater rep but I don't like blunt impact type movements on small muscle groups like that so I'll do my raise and have a very controlled decent with the option, of a slight bend in the knees/hips to catch that heavy weight softly instead of it slamming down yanking on delts and everything else... just fwiw.
I have never really liked reverse peck deck, probably for similar reasons to you, but I tend to throw in face pulls on bench days whenever I can for symmetry, and I feel like its a movement that I start to feel around rep 12, so I aim for 20 rep sets, usually a 3 x 20.
Do you remember Kleens rear db delt swings? I usually do those seated and maybe leaning forward, I've never done bench supported like this, but they really burn those rear delts
for side delts I think I have mostly always got what I needed/wanted by doing lateral db raises. sometimes I'll finish a set seated for a super strict set at lighter weight but generally I prefer them standing with a slight hinge at the hips so I can find "the spot" and I also like standing because I can use my body as a shock absorber on the heavier sets. its probably what some people would consider a cheater rep but I don't like blunt impact type movements on small muscle groups like that so I'll do my raise and have a very controlled decent with the option, of a slight bend in the knees/hips to catch that heavy weight softly instead of it slamming down yanking on delts and everything else... just fwiw.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
No no, this trip isn’t to Europe. We are planning another Europe trip but not for a few years. This one is to Puerto Rico.
I’ll try those rear db swings either today or Wednesday.
And yes, those face pulls Saturday aggravated my shoulder again, but as I suspected, stretching the shoulder with cross body rear delt stretch “fixes” it. Grok is telling me it’s likely posterior capsule issue. I’ll keep doing it with the stretch to mitigate for now and see what happens.
Hyde
Legend
100 total reps of Miniband Pullaparts a couple times per week is great for keeping things healthier. You can do them anywhere, any time, broken up however in a workout too. I like 3-5 sets to flush lots of blood and get a good pump.
They can be used as a warmup, between sets of pressing, or in a circuit with some easy accessories to flush everything out before you end the session.
They can be used as a warmup, between sets of pressing, or in a circuit with some easy accessories to flush everything out before you end the session.
Dustin07
Legend
If anyone can find the og video kleen had posted, he does a demo seated, and talks about finding the right pendulum rom as well. it might take me a few reps at a light weight to find the correct swing where I'm not forcing things into in appropriate positions.
not that it matters but I've grown to really like Claude for the data dump aspect since it keeps track of all chats (gemini does now as well I've noticed). Unless you have Grok pro then it might do that as well, but I have like 40 chats going with Claude for different data dumps like this and I can ask random questions "remind me my sets and reps and what I was doing for rear delt flies" etc
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
I like Claude too, and cursor, but I burn up my usage on this with crypto projects lol
I do use grok premium also.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Standing OHP 5 x 5/5/5/5/4 x 145
NG Pull-ups 6/5/4/3
Incline HS Press 3 sets
DB Lateral Raise 2 sets
Crossbody Lateral Raise 3 sets
OH Cable Extension 4 sets
Updates to workout plan…removing close grip bench in favor of incline machine press for a few weeks, removing db lateral raise in favor of crossbody cable lateral raise and adding overhead cable extensions for triceps. I feel the crossbody lat raise in my side delts so much more. We’ll see what happens.
NG Pull-ups 6/5/4/3
Incline HS Press 3 sets
DB Lateral Raise 2 sets
Crossbody Lateral Raise 3 sets
OH Cable Extension 4 sets
Updates to workout plan…removing close grip bench in favor of incline machine press for a few weeks, removing db lateral raise in favor of crossbody cable lateral raise and adding overhead cable extensions for triceps. I feel the crossbody lat raise in my side delts so much more. We’ll see what happens.
Hyde
Legend
The crossbody lateral raise is definitely the best medial delt activation I’ve ever had; I don’t really do them because I don’t often train at the commercial gym when I do lateral raises and the low cable pulley at the barbell club is too heavy/much friction. But on a decent machine & done well with arm slightly forward, not going too high to shift into trap, the constant tension is sick.
Always good to mix up movements occasionally!
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Right on. It’s been 8 hours since the workout and I still feel the burn lol
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Had some blood work redrawn, and partial results are back. This makes so much more sense given how I feel and dose.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Squat 4x5x275
Back Extensions 6/6/5
BB Rows mild 3 sets
Face Pulls 3 seats
Incline DB Curls 3 sets
Took it easy on everything after back extensions.
Back Extensions 6/6/5
BB Rows mild 3 sets
Face Pulls 3 seats
Incline DB Curls 3 sets
Took it easy on everything after back extensions.