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Building Back Up

Hyde said:
Can you more clearly define for me what you experience when you refer to PEM?
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Well, I don't even know how to describe it accurately. It's a general feeling in my head mostly of...trash lol. "Feels" like inflammation in my head and body, but not necessarily is. What accompanies it is terrible short term memory, crappy mood, pessimistic attitude, irritability, feeling on edge inside (uncomfortably wired and tired). Have you ever not slept for several days, and then felt this indescribable feeling in your brain? That's the thing I don't know how to describe, but it's not exactly that because I did sleep about 4 hours straight, then a bunch of wake ups totaling 7 hours I think.
 
GreenMachineX said:
Well, I don't even know how to describe it accurately. It's a general feeling in my head mostly of...trash lol. "Feels" like inflammation in my head and body, but not necessarily is. What accompanies it is terrible short term memory, crappy mood, pessimistic attitude, irritability, feeling on edge inside (uncomfortably wired and tired). Have you ever not slept for several days, and then felt this indescribable feeling in your brain? That's the thing I don't know how to describe, but it's not exactly that because I did sleep about 4 hours straight, then a bunch of wake ups totaling 7 hours I think.
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I guess I’m just curious if it’s training that is causing/worsening the insomnia, or your insomnia that is getting blamed on your training.

I mean it’s natural to feel wiped from proper strength training, so I am just wondering if it’s chicken or egg scenario. Did you say you still had poor sleep when you weren’t training at all?
 
I have absolutely heard of powerlifting driving someone’s insomnia; Chad Aichs has written a lot about it and he had to go to a very low frequency program to manage it. I was just wondering if you had expectations that you shouldn’t feel bad from training, because I feel bad all the time lol.
 
All i know about drugs is that I've felt high as a kite mentally since integrating the mild amount of TD's in this year and while some of my day to day life sounds similar to your struggle (but more mild) it's all gone right now. I feel like DHEA has reversed my age 25 years mentally lately. I have no idea if it's right for you but if you're already using pharma for other things like sleep and depression dhea/dermacrine seems like a candidate?

Hyde said:
I was just wondering if you had expectations that you shouldn’t feel bad from training, because I feel bad all the time lol.
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I think @MrKleen73 mentioned his coworkers saying why do you do that if it beats you up so bad, and he was like "you always complain about aches and health issues but you dont' even have health or strength to show for it" LOL or something like that.

I mean... ****. every day this week I have to create momentum to lift my body from the waist up out of bed in the morning supporting my neck cause it's stiff as hell all the sudden and my right shoulder is froze up. Then I stand in the hot shower blasting the warm on my delts until they loosen up, then my neck until it loosens up, then bend over and squat a bit until I can move a bit. all of this drying out my skin in the dry winter months 😅😅😅😅

but then I go to the gym and lift heavy **** and it all feels worth it
 
DHEA is definitely needed and very beneficial if you have any sort of deficiency replacing it will be a nice step forward.
 
Hyde said:
I guess I’m just curious if it’s training that is causing/worsening the insomnia, or your insomnia that is getting blamed on your training.

I mean it’s natural to feel wiped from proper strength training, so I am just wondering if it’s chicken or egg scenario. Did you say you still had poor sleep when you weren’t training at all?
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Yeah, my sleep is poor no matter what, but workout nights cause the "PEM" as I call it. Occasionally i get the PEM without working it out but not as often.


Hyde said:
I have absolutely heard of powerlifting driving someone’s insomnia; Chad Aichs has written a lot about it and he had to go to a very low frequency program to manage it. I was just wondering if you had expectations that you shouldn’t feel bad from training, because I feel bad all the time lol.
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I'll look him up and read about it. Thanks.
 
Hyde said:
I have absolutely heard of powerlifting driving someone’s insomnia; Chad Aichs has written a lot about it and he had to go to a very low frequency program to manage it. I was just wondering if you had expectations that you shouldn’t feel bad from training, because I feel bad all the time lol.
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Back to this for a minute...what bad do you feel from training? And yeah, I do expect to feel fine the day after training (except soreness of course, but I don't think feeling systemic negative effects is normal).
 
GreenMachineX said:
Back to this for a minute...what bad do you feel from training? And yeah, I do expect to feel fine the day after training (except soreness of course, but I don't think feeling systemic negative effects is normal).
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Muscle soreness is rarely an issue for me. Between the lower total volume I do, decent diet, and anabolics, tissue being sore isn’t usually so bad unless I introduce something new or do very high reps on something. And I expect that so like you said it’s fine (smash your hamstrings, expect DOMS).

But when you are strength training, reps under 10 and such, you are going to feel brain fog, probably some lethargy/fatigue, random aches that drain you & contribute to that lethargy, maybe some irritability or moodiness even. The CNS is getting worked much more (and the connective tissue). And the feeling of being tired, but not sleepy. Like you don’t want to move or have energy, but you can’t actually sleep (and sleep wouldn’t fix it, because it’s not the lack of sleep). Maybe some headaches even when your fluid/electrolytes are definitely sufficient.

Couple all this with just being a regular human with a job and a family and life stressors, and you are basically ensured there will be points in the day you just don’t feel great. People who never workout all experience those and have undulations in the day, often for hours at a time.

Choline supplementation can help brain fog some, caffeine can help bandaid fatigue temporarily, I think my year round Astragalus use for kidney health helps a little as an adaptogen, but that’s about all I’ve got. Life can be tough, and so is getting stronger.
 
I should also add that I don’t know how much you should take advice from someone who just deals with it like me lol. I mean to say, I don’t have a solution - you either want to do it or you don’t, most of the time.
 
Weight: 216

Standing OH Press 4 x 8, 8, 8, 9 x 115
REAL Pullups 4 x 4 x BW
DB Lateral Raise 15x10's, 3x10x15's
BB Shrugs 3x10x135

Felt great in this workout after the first couple sets. Ate chicken thighs and rice about 30 minutes before. Well see if the reduced exercises has an impact tonight. FINALLY DOING REAL PULLUPS!!!
 
Hyde said:
Muscle soreness is rarely an issue for me. Between the lower total volume I do, decent diet, and anabolics, tissue being sore isn’t usually so bad unless I introduce something new or do very high reps on something. And I expect that so like you said it’s fine (smash your hamstrings, expect DOMS).

But when you are strength training, reps under 10 and such, you are going to feel brain fog, probably some lethargy/fatigue, random aches that drain you & contribute to that lethargy, maybe some irritability or moodiness even. The CNS is getting worked much more (and the connective tissue). And the feeling of being tired, but not sleepy. Like you don’t want to move or have energy, but you can’t actually sleep (and sleep wouldn’t fix it, because it’s not the lack of sleep). Maybe some headaches even when your fluid/electrolytes are definitely sufficient.

Couple all this with just being a regular human with a job and a family and life stressors, and you are basically ensured there will be points in the day you just don’t feel great. People who never workout all experience those and have undulations in the day, often for hours at a time.

Choline supplementation can help brain fog some, caffeine can help bandaid fatigue temporarily, I think my year round Astragalus use for kidney health helps a little as an adaptogen, but that’s about all I’ve got. Life can be tough, and so is getting stronger.
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Well, after I get my b12 and testosterone up to par, if I still have it, I'll work on pregnenolone and dhea. But I want to know what is doing what first. I looked up a little about Chad Aichs and his story sounds very familiar.
 
So, after only doing 4 movements without any lower body exercises, and a huge lunch at Stone Age Korean BBQ, I still slept poorly, waking up at 1am, 2am, 3am, 4am, and 5am and then couldn't go back to sleep. I only have a small amount of "PEM" though and doesn't seem to be causing any of those other negative symptoms, just the "brain inflammation" feeling. Monday will be another test doing only close grip bench, deadlifts, and 2 more easy exercises.

EDIT: Boy was I wrong. There's my sourpuss attitude I know and love so much! And PEM getting worse. So, exercise reduction doesn't work.
 
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GreenMachineX said:
So, after only doing 4 movements without any lower body exercises, and a huge lunch at Stone Age Korean BBQ, I still slept poorly, waking up at 1am, 2am, 3am, 4am, and 5am and then couldn't go back to sleep. I only have a small amount of "PEM" though and doesn't seem to be causing any of those other negative symptoms, just the "brain inflammation" feeling. Monday will be another test doing only close grip bench, deadlifts, and 2 more easy exercises.

EDIT: Boy was I wrong. There's my sourpuss attitude I know and love so much! And PEM getting worse. So, exercise reduction doesn't work.
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What choline supplementation do you use again, if any? I know you keep some eggs in your diet, but can’t recall if you were using anything like a form of choline or even tyrosine or ALCAR.
 
Hyde said:
What choline supplementation do you use again, if any? I know you keep some eggs in your diet, but can’t recall if you were using anything like a form of choline or even tyrosine or ALCAR.
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Just eggs for now. I have phosphatidalcholine (sp?) And alpha gpc. All forms of carnitine wake me up at 2am even when I used to sleep good. The last time I took tyrosine it felt like amphetamine without any euphoria...not fun lol.
 
GreenMachineX said:
Just eggs for now. I have phosphatidalcholine (sp?) And alpha gpc. All forms of carnitine wake me up at 2am even when I used to sleep good. The last time I took tyrosine it felt like amphetamine without any euphoria...not fun lol.
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I think AlphaGPC is a good performance enhancer before strength training, but I would consider trying that phosphatidylcholine daily IF you want to try a supplement. If I was to buy any for daily/very frequent use, I would try citicholine/CDP choline based on what people say about it. But I’ve never supplemented with it daily really.
 
Alright gentz, I finally decided to run with a 4 day per week plan. Below is the tentative plan...please let me know your thoughts. 4 sets for compound upper work, 3 sets for isolation upper, 5/3/1 for squat and Deadlift.

Day 1: ohp, pull up, Lateral Raise, bb Shrug
Day 2: close grip bench, deadlift, reverse flies, Curls
Off
Day 3: bb bench, incline press, Upright Row, pressdowns
Day 4: squat, bb row, bb Shrug, neutral grip pullup or Curls
Off

Early on I "learned" that one should never work the same muscle 2 days in a row and never to overlap the same muscle groups. The past couple years reading Stronger By Science work - Greg Nuckols, Eric Trexler, and Eric Helms regarding high frequency bodybuilding has me looking at that. You can see above I have close grip bench the day after ohp and Lateral Raise. 5-10 years ago, that would've been a sin in my mind. Now I'm not so sure. The reason they are on different days is I'm wondering if I might be stronger like that. Or maybe the easiest answer is if I end up with a day in between because I did one of those workouts on Saturday and the next won't be until Monday, then have them on different days, but if it's on consecutive days, have a strictly upper push Day followed by followed by upper pull with deads.

The same debate in my head could be about Shrugs the day before deadlift.

Thoughts?
 
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GreenMachineX said:
You can see above I have close grip bench the day after ohp and Lateral Raise. 5-10 years ago, that would've been a sin in my mind. Now I'm not so sure. The reason they are on different days is I'm wondering if I might be stronger like that.
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lets send it for a few weeks and see what happens!
 
Looks like it should be a productive split. Give it some gas and see how it performs for you!
 
Weight: 218.5

Close Grip Bench 4 x 8, 8, 8, 7 x 135
Deadlift Top Set 6 x 345
Reverse Cable Flies 3 x 10 x 2.5
Preacher Curl 3 x 6 x 50

I really like doing less in each workout now, but it feels weird to leave and have so much more energy lol. 531 on deadlift is going well...today was the 3 rep amrap week and managed to get 6. Obviously, I need to work on my rear delts...those reverse flies were rough lol.
 
GreenMachineX said:
Weight: 218.5

Close Grip Bench 4 x 8, 8, 8, 7 x 135
Deadlift Top Set 6 x 345
Reverse Cable Flies 3 x 10 x 2.5
Preacher Curl 3 x 6 x 50

I really like doing less in each workout now, but it feels weird to leave and have so much more energy lol. 531 on deadlift is going well...today was the 3 rep amrap week and managed to get 6. Obviously, I need to work on my rear delts...those reverse flies were rough lol.
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Nice work!
 
Dustin07 said:
sleep any better after that? so are you lifting again today then, rest tomorrow?
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Nah, been up since 4am even with lunesta. I think the deadlift amrap still may be too taxing for me. But i don't feel too bad so I'll keep this schedule up for now. I'm taking today off then I'll train Wed and Thurs, off Friday, then maybe Saturday.
 
4am's not that bad, That could become a normal body routine for you if you sleep until 4am. I know a LOT Of people who actually don't even use alarm clocks anymore because they just wake up naturally at 3:30-4:30am. I'm getting close to that myself tbh
 
BB Bench 4 x 6, 6, 6, 7 x 205
Incline Machine Press 3 x 8 x 140
Cable Upright Row 12 x 42.5, 12 x 50, 6 x 57.5
Cable Pressdowns 3 x 12, 12, 11 x 30

Only 10 work sets in this workout...45 minutes roughly. Much better. Hopefully i still sleep well.
 
Weight: 216.8

Squat 5x190, 5x220, 7x245 (amrap)
BB Row 8x135, 3x6x145
Reverse Cable Flies 3x8x5
Incline DB Curl 3 x 10, 10, 8 x 20's

Even from an upper push only workout yesterday, I still have some PEM. Not horrible, but still enough to effect my daily life. For now, I'm going to continue 4 days per week though. I'm definitely stronger with only 4 exercises per workout.
 
GreenMachineX said:
BB Bench 4 x 6, 6, 6, 7 x 205
Incline Machine Press 3 x 8 x 140
Cable Upright Row 12 x 42.5, 12 x 50, 6 x 57.5
Cable Pressdowns 3 x 12, 12, 11 x 30

Only 10 work sets in this workout...45 minutes roughly. Much better. Hopefully i still sleep well.
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Nice work
GreenMachineX said:
Weight: 216.8

Squat 5x190, 5x220, 7x245 (amrap)
BB Row 8x135, 3x6x145
Reverse Cable Flies 3x8x5
Incline DB Curl 3 x 10, 10, 8 x 20's

Even from an upper push only workout yesterday, I still have some PEM. Not horrible, but still enough to effect my daily life. For now, I'm going to continue 4 days per week though. I'm definitely stronger with only 4 exercises per workout.
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Yeah, I mean I have never experienced what you are going through but if it happens no matter what you train then it comes down to how much joy the workouts bring you compared to how much they cost you the next day. If it is more manageable with smaller session even tho experiencing more frequently then maybe that is a good way to go.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Nice work

Yeah, I mean I have never experienced what you are going through but if it happens no matter what you train then it comes down to how much joy the workouts bring you compared to how much they cost you the next day. If it is more manageable with smaller session even tho experiencing more frequently then maybe that is a good way to go.
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Yeah, that's what I'm thinking...more frequent for now and when it matters, I'll just make sure to not workout the day before something important.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Nice work

Yeah, I mean I have never experienced what you are going through but if it happens no matter what you train then it comes down to how much joy the workouts bring you compared to how much they cost you the next day. If it is more manageable with smaller session even tho experiencing more frequently then maybe that is a good way to go.
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GreenMachineX said:
Almost like a real gym rat!
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I think that I have experienced something similar to what you're going through but I'm hesitant to compare my experiences. There were days where what I had was not PEM in the "post exertion" way, but more like in the middle of it. sometime in my mid twenties to early thirties I do remember cases where I'd get started on workout and 5 minutes later I'd pack it up with this overwhelming sensation of sorrow like I was going to cry. One time in particular... shoes on, music on, stretch, start a hard 5k run. made it 200 yards. stopped, walked home. At those times I learned to "live to fight another day" and I learned to give myself grace when **** sucked.

but I was in my 20s, building a business, married, new house bla bla bla. all the stresses we all go through in our 20s and 30s. who knows what caused it? maybe cause I dropped from 240 to 170lbs and my hormones were fucked? IDK.

But it's one of the reasons that I'm always like "some days you gotta rest, and some days you gotta man the F up and grind, but really only you know which one is right for you today, but you gotta be honest with yourself about which is right"

know what I mean?

everything is balance. zen. peace. lift hard, love hard. fight hard, heal hard.
 
Dustin07 said:
everything is balance. zen. peace. lift hard, love hard. fight hard, heal hard.
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My signature used to say "Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love hard, and Heal Fast!" it was just a lil mantra I came up with during a down time that reminded me what life was about.
 
MrKleen73 said:
My signature used to say "Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love hard, and Heal Fast!" it was just a lil mantra I came up with during a down time that reminded me what life was about.
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I like that. when my body aches and creaks and people tell me about the things I'm doing that I'm going to regret I tell them I don't plan to return my body "new in box" when I'm done with it. Just like my cars, I'm going to drive it till the wheels fall off!!
 
Dustin07 said:
I like that. when my body aches and creaks and people tell me about the things I'm doing that I'm going to regret I tell them I don't plan to return my body "new in box" when I'm done with it. Just like my cars, I'm going to drive it till the wheels fall off!!
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When everyone asked me if I was going to slow down and stop this heavy lifting nonsense now that I had the surgery I laugh and tell them "Hell No! I got it fixed SO THAT I COULD DO THAT AGAIN!!!" I would have left it alone and worked around it if i just wanted to settle. Now if something truly becomes chronic I will adjust but if we are talking about getting scoped every 5 years to be able to keep doing what I love then I am going to be getting scoped every 5 years to do so.

I also remind the guys in my office that they complain of sore backs, bad knees and bad shoulders all the time. That they don't even do anything to justify it or do anything to improve it. So I am likely to still be more functional than them at their age. I just have to do it smarter now if i want to continue to push the envelope.
 
MrKleen73 said:
I also remind the guys in my office that they complain of sore backs, bad knees and bad shoulders all the time. That they don't even do anything to justify it or do anything to improve it. So I am likely to still be more functional than them at their age. I just have to do it smarter now if i want to continue to push the envelope.
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also nobody has picked a fight with me or tried to mug me, or given me **** since before I started lifting in high school. so the aches and pains for a little security and loving life are worth it imo! I can pick my wife up and carry her out of a burning building. can they?
 
Dustin07 said:
also nobody has picked a fight with me or tried to mug me, or given me **** since before I started lifting in high school. so the aches and pains for a little security and loving life are worth it imo! I can pick my wife up and carry her out of a burning building. can they?
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Well damn sure not if you are around... "Power cleans random 225lb guy for messing with wife!"
 
GreenMachineX said:
Weight: 216

Standing OH Press 4 x 8, 8, 8, 9 x 115
REAL Pullups 4 x 4 x BW
DB Lateral Raise 15x10's, 3x10x15's
BB Shrugs 3x10x135

Felt great in this workout after the first couple sets. Ate chicken thighs and rice about 30 minutes before. Well see if the reduced exercises has an impact tonight. FINALLY DOING REAL PULLUPS!!!
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Standing OH Press 4 x 8 x 120
Pullup 4, 4, 3+1 negative, 3+1 negative
DB Lateral Raise 3 x 12 x 15's
DB Armpit Row 2 x 8 x 15's
BB Shrug 4 x 5 x 185
Inverted Row 2 x 5

Adding in the DB armpit Row (also known as monkey row) and Inverted rows. I haven't done Inverted Row in years but I love them. Kept both quite easy for the first time as I'm not sure they'll actually be on this training day. AMRAP last set of OHP was 8...failed going for 9.
 
Updated plan:

Day 1: ohp, pull up, Lateral Raise, armpit row, bb Shrug
Day 2: close grip bench, deadlift, inverted row, reverse flies
Off
Day 3: bb bench, incline machine press, Upright Row, pressdowns
Day 4: squat, bb row, bb Shrug, reverse flies, Curls
Off
Off

Love the feel of Inverted Row, so had to build that in. Other than lower body, am I missing volume on anything in particular?

Edit: fixed.
 
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GreenMachineX said:
Updated plan:

Day 1: ohp, pull up, Lateral Raise, armpit row, bb Shrug
Day 2: close grip bench, deadlift, inverted row, reverse flies
Off
Day 3: bb bench, incline machine press, Upright Row, pressdowns
Day 4: squat, bb row, bb Shrug, reverse flies, Curls
Off
Off

Love the feel of Inverted Row, so had to build that in. Other than lower body, am I missing volume on anything in particular?

Edit: fixed.
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Where’s your calf day?
 
Run with it for a while and see how it goes! I was going to recommend throwing in curls for general elbow happiness but it looks like you did already. Meant to reply last night but kept getting distracted and closing the app lol
 
Dustin07 said:
Run with it for a while and see how it goes! I was going to recommend throwing in curls for general elbow happiness but it looks like you did already. Meant to reply last night but kept getting distracted and closing the app lol
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Curls for elbow happiness? Hmmm, always would've assumed they would aggravate elbow pain. Glad i haven't dealt with it yet.
 
I do bicep curls either with a db or full size empty barbell every day before I press, squat, or pull for sure. keeps the elbows arm and happy. I literally curl in the squat rack before squatting lol
 
Yeah there are some good benefits to direct biceps training to keep elbow flexion strong. Also you need the biceps tendon strong for any time your arm is straight under load like a deadlift, or the bottom of a dead hang pull up.
 
biceps are my biggest fear these days with heavy deadlifts.
but back in my xfit days I used to have 2 repeating issues:
when running a lot + deadlifting a lot I'd get a psoas that was so tight I could barely walk. took weeks if not months to figure that one out.

and when doing a lot of grip work with deads, cleans, and thick rope climbs, my elbows would flare up so bad they'd just go completely weak, like scary weak. you don't want to be 20ft up on a rope climb and realize you have no grip. I found bicep curls have kept 99% of my bicep pain away. I also golf a lot and between golf, squats, and deadlifts, i SHOULD have elbow issues but (knock on wood) it's the one injury I don't have lol
 
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