Building Back Up

[Dustin07]

Run with it for a while and see how it goes! I was going to recommend throwing in curls for general elbow happiness but it looks like you did already. Meant to reply last night but kept getting distracted and closing the app lol

 

[GreenMachineX]

Run with it for a while and see how it goes! I was going to recommend throwing in curls for general elbow happiness but it looks like you did already. Meant to reply last night but kept getting distracted and closing the app lol

Curls for elbow happiness? Hmmm, always would've assumed they would aggravate elbow pain. Glad i haven't dealt with it yet.

 

[Dustin07]

I do bicep curls either with a db or full size empty barbell every day before I press, squat, or pull for sure. keeps the elbows arm and happy. I literally curl in the squat rack before squatting lol

 

[MrKleen73]

Yeah there are some good benefits to direct biceps training to keep elbow flexion strong. Also you need the biceps tendon strong for any time your arm is straight under load like a deadlift, or the bottom of a dead hang pull up.

 

[Dustin07]

biceps are my biggest fear these days with heavy deadlifts.
but back in my xfit days I used to have 2 repeating issues:
when running a lot + deadlifting a lot I'd get a psoas that was so tight I could barely walk. took weeks if not months to figure that one out.

and when doing a lot of grip work with deads, cleans, and thick rope climbs, my elbows would flare up so bad they'd just go completely weak, like scary weak. you don't want to be 20ft up on a rope climb and realize you have no grip. I found bicep curls have kept 99% of my bicep pain away. I also golf a lot and between golf, squats, and deadlifts, i SHOULD have elbow issues but (knock on wood) it's the one injury I don't have lol

 

[GreenMachineX]

Interesting. Something I've been experiencing that might be related...my left hand grip and particularly my thumb feels super weak occasionally. When it was it's worst, I almost dropped a gallon of milk and then the pan I make my eggs in. I haven't figured out what's going on there because it comes and goes, but maybe it's this?

 

[Dustin07]

no idea but worst case scenario you build some guns for the misses lol

 

[GreenMachineX]

Weight: 218.5

Close Grip Bench 4 x 8, 8, 8, 7 x 135
Deadlift Top Set 6 x 345
Reverse Cable Flies 3 x 10 x 2.5
Preacher Curl 3 x 6 x 50

I really like doing less in each workout now, but it feels weird to leave and have so much more energy lol. 531 on deadlift is going well...today was the 3 rep amrap week and managed to get 6. Obviously, I need to work on my rear delts...those reverse flies were rough lol.

Close Grip Bench 4 x 10, 10, 10, 9 x 140
Deadlift Top Set 1's Week 4 x 365
Inverted Row 3 x 6 x BW
Reverse Cable Fly 3 x 10, 10, 9 x 5

Also started doing 1 set of planks per workout, just building up endurance. And 2 sets of Curls for @Dustin07 even though I didn't want to

 

[GreenMachineX]

I don't understand why I'm supposed to deload next week from deadlift after 3 weeks of 531. I barely feel like I did anything.

 

[Dustin07]

I don't understand why I'm supposed to deload next week from deadlift after 3 weeks of 531. I barely feel like I did anything.

What was your top weight and total amrap qty for each of the first 3 weeks on deads?

 

[GreenMachineX]

What was your top weight and total amrap qty for each of the first 3 weeks on deads?

5's was 6 x 325
3's was 6 x 345
1's was 4 x 365

Is that what you mean? I'm not sure what you mean by total amrap qty...thats my top set amrap.

 

[Dustin07]

5's was 6 x 325
3's was 6 x 345
1's was 4 x 365

Is that what you mean? I'm not sure what you mean by total amrap qty...thats my top set amrap.

Yeah for sure. you're doing it like this? (this was mine from cycle #2 back in 2021):

Deads - Warm-up
5 x 145
5 x 180
3 x 215

working sets
3 x 255
3 x 290
10 x 325

bbb sets
5 x 10 x 190lbs

 

[Dustin07]

if 4 was your legit amrap then deload seems appropriate to me probably if you're sticking with the 531 routine.
you added 40lbs to your top set in 3 weeks which is awesome
but you did drop reps. If you had hit 365 for 6 as easily as you did 325 the deload might seem premature but it looks appropriate to me. especially for you because

a. you're not a newbie so you're already going heavier out of the gate
b. you're working back into a routine and developing some level of autoregulation

considering your fight with the PEM this past year I see no issue with going 50% for a week but maintaining your 4 day split... seems smart and healthy

in theory another month and you'd be repping 405 x 4-6 reps. and another month you'd be repping 440 etc etc (although we know it's not always linear.

 

[MrKleen73]

if 4 was your legit amrap then deload seems appropriate to me probably if you're sticking with the 531 routine.
you added 40lbs to your top set in 3 weeks which is awesome
but you did drop reps. If you had hit 365 for 6 as easily as you did 325 the deload might seem premature but it looks appropriate to me. especially for you because

a. you're not a newbie so you're already going heavier out of the gate
b. you're working back into a routine and developing some level of autoregulation

considering your fight with the PEM this past year I see no issue with going 50% for a week but maintaining your 4 day split... seems smart and healthy

in theory another month and you'd be repping 405 x 4-6 reps. and another month you'd be repping 440 etc etc (although we know it's not always linear.

Yeah, with the PEM it might be a good idea.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Yeah for sure. you're doing it like this? (this was mine from cycle #2 back in 2021):

Deads - Warm-up
5 x 145
5 x 180
3 x 215

working sets
3 x 255
3 x 290
10 x 325

bbb sets
5 x 10 x 190lbs

if 4 was your legit amrap then deload seems appropriate to me probably if you're sticking with the 531 routine.
you added 40lbs to your top set in 3 weeks which is awesome
but you did drop reps. If you had hit 365 for 6 as easily as you did 325 the deload might seem premature but it looks appropriate to me. especially for you because

a. you're not a newbie so you're already going heavier out of the gate
b. you're working back into a routine and developing some level of autoregulation

considering your fight with the PEM this past year I see no issue with going 50% for a week but maintaining your 4 day split... seems smart and healthy

in theory another month and you'd be repping 405 x 4-6 reps. and another month you'd be repping 440 etc etc (although we know it's not always linear.

Kind of like that...but not doing the BBB, only the 531.

I didn't actually add much to my top sets, because at some point a month or 2 ago I did 365 for 3...so I've added 1 rep, then again, I didn't do as much volume before it this time. So, the last time I did 365 for 3, I did 315 for 3, then 345 for 3, then 365 for 3.

But the way 531 is prescribed, the next few weeks top set based on adding 10 pounds to my training max would look like:

5x335
3x355
1x375

Of course, those are amraps so I should get more then those prescribed reps.

 

[Dustin07]

Of course, those are amraps so I should get more then those prescribed reps.

That AMRAP 375 is going to be taxing
I don't even compete anymore yet I visualize all my training sessions days, sometimes weeks in advance. If I were in your shoes on your program and I knew I had a 375 amrap coming up all of my eating, resting, stretching, and planning would be around that lol.

 

[GreenMachineX]

That AMRAP 375 is going to be taxing
I don't even compete anymore yet I visualize all my training sessions days, sometimes weeks in advance. If I were in your shoes on your program and I knew I had a 375 amrap coming up all of my eating, resting, stretching, and planning would be around that lol.

I hear ya...but I am trying to cut (kind of), so that's going to hurt my performance...and it's likely slowing my progress. The last time I did 375, I got 2. Hoping for 3 or 4 next time.

 

[Dustin07]

I hear ya...but I am trying to cut (kind of), so that's going to hurt my performance...and it's likely slowing my progress. The last time I did 375, I got 2. Hoping for 3 or 4 next time.

This sounds like my whole life from age 30 to age 40 until i said screw it I wanna be stronger more than I want to be leaner lol

 

[GreenMachineX]

This sounds like my whole life from age 30 to age 40 until i said screw it I wanna be stronger more than I want to be leaner lol

Lol yeah, it's been my life for a long time. Keto helped me get down to less then 35" pants, almost to 34" comfortably. But I let myself go the past year of this insomnia and PEM, and I'm back to wearing 36" pants, supposedly 25% BF, and it pisses me off. So, I'm to the point where if I gain much more I'll have to buy 38" clothes. Now that I'm typing it out...getting more frustrated about it.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Another idea to give some extra volume is what I found on reddit from the Beyond 5/3/1 book.

Using a week 1 workout as an example.

Basic 5/3/1 workout is

Set 1: 65% x 5

Set 2: 75% x 5

Set 3: 85% for as many reps as possible

So after this you throw in the joker/FSLS stuff.

Joker Set: If you feel like you can still go heavier and have leftover energy, this is an optional set you can throw in. You add 5% to your AMRAP weight from Set 3 and do 5 reps. if you complete the 5 reps, consider adding another 5% and going for 5 more reps. If you fail the 5 reps, you're done. Again, this set (or series of sets) is dependent on how you feel. You don't always have to do Jokers.

Pyramid Set: Do the Set 2 weight again. Either for the standard amount of reps (5 reps in week 1) or you have the option to make it AMRAP.

First Set Last Set: Do the Set 1 weight again. Either one set for AMRAP or 3-4 sets of 5-8 reps.

Buy the Beyond 5/3/1 book for full details. This program will get you insane gains and is worth paying the ebook price for.

EDIT: I am basing my information on the book "Beyond 5/3/1." Jim Wendler has a book that came out recently that has new guidelines for Joker Sets, according to [this comment by /u/lankyslap](https://www.reddit.com/r/Fitness/comments/6bwz5o/eli5_fsl_and_joker_sets_in_531/dhqhgi6/)

 

[Hyde]

I don't understand why I'm supposed to deload next week from deadlift after 3 weeks of 531. I barely feel like I did anything.

Jim says you can run two 3-week waves in a row before deloading if you still feel great and definitely believe you can handle another 3 before a deload.

 

[Dustin07]

Jim says you can run two 3-week waves in a row before deloading if you still feel great and definitely believe you can handle another 3 before a deload.

yeah but everybody thinks they can go longer than they should lol. lifters are not inherently great autoregulators typically. seems like there is more at risk from NOT deloading than there is from taking a 50% week.

 

[Dustin07]

Lol yeah, it's been my life for a long time. Keto helped me get down to less then 35" pants, almost to 34" comfortably. But I let myself go the past year of this insomnia and PEM, and I'm back to wearing 36" pants, supposedly 25% BF, and it pisses me off. So, I'm to the point where if I gain much more I'll have to buy 38" clothes. Now that I'm typing it out...getting more frustrated about it.

if it's of any consolation I reached 38" at my fattest before I learned how to cook and do cardio.
wrestled at 148 in high school and was 242 around age 20 before cutting down to 168.
now sitting at 197 with 32" jeans so I totally get the struggle and have done roller coaster, you'll get there!

 

[GreenMachineX]

if it's of any consolation I reached 38" at my fattest before I learned how to cook and do cardio.
wrestled at 148 in high school and was 242 around age 20 before cutting down to 168.
now sitting at 197 with 32" jeans so I totally get the struggle and have done roller coaster, you'll get there!

Right on. Maybe by the time I'm 40, I'll be in the same boat.

Something weird though is happening with my physique. I'm basically the same weight about a month or 2 ago or even 6 months ago, and the same pant size the past several months, but everything looks better. I can even see the outline of my abs coming in... but it's like my hips are too big (gluteus medius?). I don't get it.

 

[Hyde]

I’m a 38” waist jean, but I’m currently ~18.5” body fat. The size is going to be relative to you for your frame and muscle mass.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I’m a 38” waist jean, but I’m currently ~18.5” body fat. The size is going to be relative to you for your frame and muscle mass.

Gotcha. Well, body dysmorphia doesn't help look at myself accurately in the mirror

 

[GreenMachineX]

Had testosterone and CBC drawn today now that it's been 8 weeks on the increased TRT dose...7mg daily.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Another update...PEM got me bad today. I think there's a correlation/causation bergen the amrap deadlift and squat (or just those 2 exercises in general) and PEM severity. Malaise, headache, irritability, etc.

 

[Dustin07]

Another update...PEM got me bad today. I think there's a correlation/causation bergen the amrap deadlift and squat (or just those 2 exercises in general) and PEM severity. Malaise, headache, irritability, etc.

What's your gut tell you to do, stick to the program and fight through it, or take an extra rest day?

 

[GreenMachineX]

What's your gut tell you to do, stick to the program and fight through it, or take an extra rest day?

I'm not sure what my gut says, but I'm sure I'll feel fine tomorrow so I'll just train again. It's only upper push tomorrow so shouldn't hurt me too bad.

 

[Hyde]

Another update...PEM got me bad today. I think there's a correlation/causation bergen the amrap deadlift and squat (or just those 2 exercises in general) and PEM severity. Malaise, headache, irritability, etc.

I can basically guarantee you as much. Anyone who has focused on the powerlifts can attest that heavy hard work on these two is what brings both the serious strength AND that wiped, fatigued, wrecked feeling I was talking about. The harder you push, the greater the toll.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I can basically guarantee you as much. Anyone who has focused on the powerlifts can attest that heavy hard work on these two is what brings both the serious strength AND that wiped, fatigued, wrecked feeling I was talking about. The harder you push, the greater the toll.

Gotcha. 365 lb is 90% of my 1rm, so an amrap of 4 reps I see would cause some issues.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I can basically guarantee you as much. Anyone who has focused on the powerlifts can attest that heavy hard work on these two is what brings both the serious strength AND that wiped, fatigued, wrecked feeling I was talking about. The harder you push, the greater the toll.

So, in theory, what percentage could I work on the powerlifts with and not experience this?
While still making gains...

 

[Dustin07]

So, in theory, what percentage could I work on the powerlifts with and not experience this?
While still making gains...

I think the number we keep landing on is 80% or less? Conjugate might be a better fit with auto regulation whereas with 531 for me every week is a 1rm cause each week I'm trying to PR reps. It destroys me

 

[Dustin07]

Honestly a reps / amrap pr at our level is way more taxing imo.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I think the number we keep landing on is 80% or less? Conjugate might be a better fit with auto regulation whereas with 531 for me every week is a 1rm cause each week I'm trying to PR reps. It destroys me

I'm not sure what you mean by conjugate in this context, because when I just looked it up, it looks like it builds up to a 3rm in the heavy workout. But yeah, maybe 531 for me is a bad idea and I need to accumulate fatigue through volume instead of intensity

 

[Hyde]

So, in theory, what percentage could I work on the powerlifts with and not experience this?
While still making gains...

I don’t think you’re going to find a percentage suitable for building strength that can be pushed to near limits of RPE and not suffer this. I can take 70% of my 1RM deadlift, and if I pull an AMRAP at RPE 8 even I’m going to suffer some significant fatigue.

If you trained at something like 65-80% AND kept many reps in the tank on your sets, you would need many sets to accumulate enough work to drive adaptations. And that would also probably leave you kinda wrecked.

That’s basically what I was trying to touch on previously: training sufficiently to get stronger is often going to come at a cost. Adaptation is expensive & difficult for the body.

I think the number we keep landing on is 80% or less? Conjugate might be a better fit with auto regulation whereas with 531 for me every week is a 1rm cause each week I'm trying to PR reps. It destroys me

I don’t think you fully understand the premise of the Maximum Effort Method. You can’t just take a token single to get the effect; you really have to get into that 95%+ range. 3+ reps over 90%. You don’t want to miss, but you have to go deep. And you are going to feel that.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I don’t think you’re going to find a percentage suitable for building strength that can be pushed to near limits of RPE and not suffer this. I can take 70% of my 1RM deadlift, and if I pull an AMRAP at RPE 8 even I’m going to suffer some significant fatigue.

If you trained at something like 65-80% AND kept many reps in the tank on your sets, you would need many sets to accumulate enough work to drive adaptations. And that would also probably leave you kinda wrecked.

That’s basically what I was trying to touch on previously: training sufficiently to get stronger is often going to come at a cost. Adaptation is expensive & difficult for the body. Gotcha.

gotcha. It's just frustrating that it wasn't always like that.

Nevertheless, I'm seeing the beginning of striations in my side delts! Yay.

 

[Dustin07]

I'm not sure what you mean by conjugate in this context, because when I just looked it up, it looks like it builds up to a 3rm in the heavy workout. But yeah, maybe 531 for me is a bad idea and I need to accumulate fatigue through volume instead of intensity

I don’t think you’re going to find a percentage suitable for building strength that can be pushed to near limits of RPE and not suffer this. I can take 70% of my 1RM deadlift, and if I pull an AMRAP at RPE 8 even I’m going to suffer some significant fatigue.

If you trained at something like 65-80% AND kept many reps in the tank on your sets, you would need many sets to accumulate enough work to drive adaptations. And that would also probably leave you kinda wrecked.

That’s basically what I was trying to touch on previously: training sufficiently to get stronger is often going to come at a cost. Adaptation is expensive & difficult for the body.



I don’t think you fully understand the premise of the Maximum Effort Method. You can’t just take a token single to get the effect; you really have to get into that 95%+ range. 3+ reps over 90%. You don’t want to miss, but you have to go deep. And you are going to feel that.

You're probably right and I'm likely misrepresenting it. In my mind I was thinking about how when I ran 531 I'm going apeshit pounding away those amraps week after week. The upside to having a dynamic day in my mind was that I was thinking this week you go ham, next week you're obviously working but being that it's dynamic you're going lighter and would likely recover better, but I wasn't really thinking about having both days the same week the way Jim and Dave outline it:

I think what I had in mind, or what has been detrimental to my own consistency in capacity in the past, Jim captures here though:

 

[MrKleen73]

Yeah, I can see that but since his issue is with CNS taxation rather than mechanical or movement pattern based he is going to take a hit too.

Unfortunately like Hyde said there is only so far you can push on a DL or Squat before it becomes seriously taxing on the CNS due to the difficulty and amount of muscle involved in them. If you are doing a true AMRAP maybe only go to an RPE8 or so. It would have to be better than a true AMRAP. Sure you would be sacrificing some of the strength stimulus there but also still getting a little extra volume and a bit of a measuring stick to go by.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Great input gentz. Maybe i will deload deadlift and squat next week. Thanks.

 

[Dustin07]

If you are doing a true AMRAP maybe only go to an RPE8 or so

makes sense to me and another thing I'm not good at. whenever I see anyone question a deload I'm like DO IT because i have never ever ever in my entire life been good at deloading or decreasing intensity. When I ran my amraps it was an RPE 11, sweat dripping down my face, clothes soaked through, nearly passing out. The 531 app often shows "X reps needed to beat this cycle's PR" or something like that. so in my mind I see say a 245lb backsquat as my top set on 531 "13 reps needed to beat cycle PR" so I'm like I need 13, maybe 14 reps no matter how miserable and grueling it is or how much I puke.

and so time and time again I hit my training numbers, destroy my body, and never peak well lol. set a new reps PR and land 20lbs shy of a 1rm pr.

 

[MrKleen73]

makes sense to me and another thing I'm not good at. whenever I see anyone question a deload I'm like DO IT because i have never ever ever in my entire life been good at deloading or decreasing intensity. When I ran my amraps it was an RPE 11, sweat dripping down my face, clothes soaked through, nearly passing out. The 531 app often shows "X reps needed to beat this cycle's PR" or something like that. so in my mind I see say a 245lb backsquat as my top set on 531 "13 reps needed to beat cycle PR" so I'm like I need 13, maybe 14 reps no matter how miserable and grueling it is or how much I puke.

and so time and time again I hit my training numbers, destroy my body, and never peak well lol. set a new reps PR and land 20lbs shy of a 1rm pr.

Yeah, I used to train every exercise with a double drop set afterwards. it didn't kill me because it was only 2 work sets first but I got the crazy dig in mentality that cause me some issues. Especially when you move over into higher volume training. It was a great preparation for RPE and RIR type of training though because I was very familiar with how I felt right before true concentric failure since my goal was to get there and beyond for years.

 

[Hyde]

The main things I would suggest to help lessen the PEM from hard squatting and pulling (and understand these are directly making them less hard, so smaller return on your investment) is to always try to keep a couple reps in the tank even on your hardest sets, and avoid high levels of psychological arousal.

If you approach the bar calm as possible, nasal breathing (on approach, not during the set), no earbuds at all or very mild/disinteresting music, this can help limit your arousal/intensity. Simply focus on executing the movement robotically with optimal technique & tightness, and do not lift through any form breakdown.

 

[GreenMachineX]

The main things I would suggest to help lessen the PEM from hard squatting and pulling (and understand these are directly making them less hard, so smaller return on your investment) is to always try to keep a couple reps in the tank even on your hardest sets, and avoid high levels of psychological arousal.

If you approach the bar calm as possible, nasal breathing (on approach, not during the set), no earbuds at all or very mild/disinteresting music, this can help limit your arousal/intensity. Simply focus on executing the movement robotically with optimal technique & tightness, and do not lift through any form breakdown.

I just read about the psychological arousal from Christian Thibodeaux (sp?) having extra impact on the CNS recovery. I do get myself primed like that pretty often...maybe I need to take the down a notch.

 

[Hyde]

I just read about the psychological arousal from Christian Thibodeaux (sp?) having extra impact on the CNS recovery. I do get myself primed like that pretty often...maybe I need to take the down a notch.

The more you draw from that well, the lower your energy levels will be in the recovery phase.

I am an extremely externally-motivated lifter. The greater emotion and intensity I can generate, being hit/slapped/push, loud aggressive music, being shouted at, using ammonia - these things all greatly increase my output potential. But they all cost systemic recovery, so I use the minimum arousal necessary in general training to execute the work I need to accomplish.

 

[GreenMachineX]

The more you draw from that well, the lower your energy levels will be in the recovery phase.

I am an extremely externally-motivated lifter. The greater emotion and intensity I can generate, being hit/slapped/push, loud aggressive music, being shouted at, using ammonia - these things all greatly increase my output potential. But they all cost systemic recovery, so I use the minimum arousal necessary in general training to execute the work I need to accomplish.

Good call.

 

[GreenMachineX]

BB Bench 5x210, 5x215, 5x220, 5x225
Incline Cable Press 12x12.5, 2 x 10 x 17
Cable Upright Row 15x20, 12x42.5, 10x50
Cable Pressdown 12x30, 2 x 10, 9 x 35

The last time I went for bench at 225 for 5, I only did 5's of 205 and 215 before, so this was a lot better by adding an extra set and starting heavier. Whole workout done in 35 minutes from first warm up at to last. Leaving the gym feeling fresh sometimes is nice

 

[Dustin07]

225 x 5!! DUDE

 

[GreenMachineX]

225 x 5!! DUDE

I did 5 last time too about 4 weeks ago...just not as much load in the sets before.