BPS' What's improved with the upcoming DHEA transdermal
- Thread starter MrKleen73
- Start date
Sourdough
Well-known member
Kleen- the study I'm writing from on the other pages was 50mg ed in a transdermal application. Basically what is used in the sports supplements brought to market.
Resolve- here's a link to a downloadable pdf file.... Invalid Link Removed
It's a very straight forward and easy to read study.
Resolve- here's a link to a downloadable pdf file.... Invalid Link Removed
It's a very straight forward and easy to read study.
Resolve
The BPS Rep
5 day trial period? Not long enough to mean anything. And table one makes it pretty clear that there are no significant changes in either test or estradiol levels. I mean, yeah, we see T and E go up in figure 2, but we're talking picomoles of change, which is insignificant.
oufinny
Well-known member
Notice the application site as well, the abdomen, which we all know is not ideal. Even most endos recommend shoulders/upper back for application now as there have been numerous studies showing this application methods efficacy. It is interesting that with that dose and that application site, the increases were negligible.
Geoforce
Well-known member
Out of curiosity why is this? I see this recommended all the time, but at the expense of laziness why is like Formasurge recommended on chest/shoulders? I've seen that on other transdermal PH type products as well that these seem to be the best spots.
Sourdough
Well-known member
Resolve said:
You didn't read very much huh?
Keep reading the WHOLE study, beyond page 2, and get back at me.(also. read the thread/link on am.com i posted in my previous post as well since you can't access phf, there are identical points made.... May even be more applicable then the phf thread)
Also consider this after you do... this was the effects after only 5 days of administration... now imagine the combined effects after a 30 day cycle? Also what does this spell out for pct when only 5 days of administration creates downstream cascading effects for 5 weeks?
Then read what happens to LH... What happens to endogenous production of dhea? It all tanks. A measurable degree of suppression occurs with only 5 days of administration.
What will happen once those levels of test and androstenedione decrease and there's hampered levels of LH and no dhea to create more sex hormones?
Now i know no level of pct at all occurred here, but again this was after 5 days and the downstream effects were shown to extend 5 weeks (could go even longer since it's all that was measured) but how often do guys bail from cycles after a week and attempt no form of pct? how much will these effects be compounded after 30 days (six times the length of administration in this study) and how much longer then 5 weeks could we see cascading aromatisation to estrogen, with extended dosing, meanwhile there's no longer the accompanied ai being administered to mitigate these conversions?
Really regardless of these questions, speculations and differences in length of administration, you have to think about this objectively. Take yourself out of the position of a rep (one i know well as I've repped for multiple companies that have faced similar scrutiny,including IBE and Primordial Performance) and think about this. Would you want to supplement with dhea to any degree when these facts are brought to light?
And again, i don't mean to bring any sort of politics into it, but pa and Henry v BOTH are still versed in organic chemistry and the effects of pro hormones in the body. Neither of them will support the use of dhea in males and have made similar points I'm making here WITHOUT the aid of studies to back up their conjecture. I do think that still it should be looked at closely and the release of such a product weighed accordingly.
Again, why not just release a 4-dhea product?
metroba
Legend
Traps, shoulders and upper back have the highest density of androgen receptors.
Sourdough
Well-known member
Sourdough said:
this is great and ideal for immediate conversion of course, but systematic conversions occur constantly also....
And with dhea, there are plenty of points along the conversion process where either the metabolites itself can interact with the er and/or can still convert directly to an estrogen.....
Really the estrogenic worries of dhea are not solely the product of estrogen itself.
Sourdough
Well-known member
BulkPerf said:
that's just the abstract to the entire study i posted above in pdf format... so what is the exact point you are trying to draw from that abstract?
The paragraph under table one goes into detail as to where these hormone levels reside 5 weeks out and the table 2 shows a direct comparison of levels at day 0, 4(mid way), 6(end) and 42(post administration ramifications) where test is increased 50% and estrogen 300%, LH is half of what it was and endogenous dhea is near non existent to further replenish these hormones...
So there better be a stronger ai then chrysin included(does its mw even allow viable td application?) And it better have a minimum of a 5 week halflife or sold in a combo with a standalone ai(+daa?) to be taken through pct and beyond...
BPS
Board Sponsor
Like I said it was just for fun. When we release the ingredients you will have a much better idea rather then Speculation.
thebigt
Legend
lol....fail.
Ape McGrapes
Well-known member
Then why does PA sell a transdermal DHEA suppliment?
Now I think we need to stop referring to "dermacrine" as a "test base." It gets half the people confused on what it actually is and the other halfs panties all in a bunch. At best DHEA has a conversion rate of like 1% to Testosterone. It's used to midigate side effects such as lethargy and libido loss, similar to testosterone. Besides it converts to other hormones; androstenediol and androstenedione.
Sourdough
Well-known member
Ape McGrapes said:
Because there is Market for it and money to be made legally under the guise of being a legit ph in a market that's about to be non-existent?
Idk, but you can see his personal posts as recent as a year ago(less actually) stating it's not a wise choice for use by men.
I completely agree with the second part of your post.
thebigt
Legend
to me science is only a step in the evolutionary ladder ahead of broscience...look at prescription medicine, you get 1 script and need 3 more to counter the side effects.
ok, back on track...for as long as i have been on this and other forums the debate over dhea has been ongoing. well here is my take on it: as many people who have supplemented with dhea [both oral and topical] surely some of them have had blood tests done...can you show me any posts where anyone has attributed dhea to getting bad results from blood tests????
science to me is a whole lot of conjecture....the body is way too complicated to predict exactly how it will respond- case in point look at how many drugs big pharma invests in, only to have them rejected either because they didn't do what scientists thought they would, or because the sides were worse than the benefits.
in closing, if you read the threads people loved dermacrine and were excited when bps brought it back, there is a lot to be said by all of the repeat users, at least in my opinion.
ok, back on track...for as long as i have been on this and other forums the debate over dhea has been ongoing. well here is my take on it: as many people who have supplemented with dhea [both oral and topical] surely some of them have had blood tests done...can you show me any posts where anyone has attributed dhea to getting bad results from blood tests????
science to me is a whole lot of conjecture....the body is way too complicated to predict exactly how it will respond- case in point look at how many drugs big pharma invests in, only to have them rejected either because they didn't do what scientists thought they would, or because the sides were worse than the benefits.
in closing, if you read the threads people loved dermacrine and were excited when bps brought it back, there is a lot to be said by all of the repeat users, at least in my opinion.
thebigt
Legend
you ever had a blood test while using it? i used it often when i was on test cyp and my estrogen was always in normal range.
Ape McGrapes
Well-known member
A lot of it comes from the pregnenolone. Especially the neurostimulating effects. Dermacrine makes me feel so good.
oufinny
Well-known member
There are hormones that lead to better conversion rates in the skin on that part of the body. I don't know the exact science but I know PP posted it a while back and the science is sound. The same is recommended for andro-gel users by Endo's all over the US; my father's being one of them. I am sure that there is a study that covers this in detail but I have not seen a post with it in a long time now.
oufinny
Well-known member
We don't know the ingredient list, you may very well be right. You also avoided my point, administration location of topical DHEA has a huge impact on the conversion of multiple hormones that were all mentioned in the study; noteworthy being DHEAS, DHT, Testosterone and Estrogen. Please note I like the debate, its good to have these discussions. I like your passion, too many lack it or are scared to show it. Reps coming your way.
AZMIDLYF
Legend
Never while using it.
oufinny
Well-known member
I remember some threads a while back about how Dermacrine was a huge help to guys on TRT. All the reasoning escapes me though, it was years ago.
Sourdough
Well-known member
oufinny said:
You'll see in one of my first posts that this was one of the only viable groups of users I'd suggest to use a dhea product.
Obviously those on trt are shutdown. That doesn't just mean a lack of endogenous testosterone but many of the upstream hormones that lead to it and their other varied end product pathways.
When lacking in dhea you'll miss out on lots of thyroid supporting hormones, cortisol regulating properties, a few of the other intrinsic properties attributed to dhea itself and its metabolites along the way... all these necessary for normal healthy functioning adults.
So again, as first mentioned, anyone in trt or who has another inherent lack in dhea could utilize such a supplement with tons of benefits...
The problem comes when your not naturally lacking in these compounds, namely dhea or estrogen, and thinking it's going to serve you well as a viable test base to any cycle or ran as a standalone cycle... it just won't likely end well or at least not you thought it was, regardless of how you "feel"....
Personally, i naturally convert dhea at a very high rate to its thyroid boosting metabolites.... not necessarily a good thing... and i have to supplement with an ai when taking anything that is susceptible to aromatase or i have to worry bout flaring up my gyno.
Sourdough
Well-known member
oufinny said:
oh, i didn't address that point directly cause i don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying in regards to application sites dictating to a great measure the immediate outcome of the product being administered...... that is with most hormones like androstenedione or test that could benefit or suffer from specific site administration....
But in response to another post i kind of made my true feelings on this subject made...
let me expound using the previously quoted study as backing to what i am about to suggest...
First we are talking about dhea here. It is a compound that has to go through MULTIPLE conversions to become any of the hormones mentioned above with the exception of one... dheas...
The wonderful thing shown in this study is the multiple blood draws so early on in a transdermal dhea administration, application site aside, which show that really the ONLY thing occurring upon immediate administration of dhea through the dermis is the conversion of dhea->dheas...
Now considering you do know as much as i do about application sites, obvious from your posts, then in this test specifically it would be obviously assumed that if the enzymes in the immediate dermis has any bearing on the immediate conversion process then we should see an inherent rise in estrogen (for any one else reading, while the shoulders, traps, upper back and upper chest hold more enzymes for beneficial conversions, the stomach, love handles region, lower back and lower chest aka typical fat bearing/easy gain areas on men hold more aromatase enzymes)... the thing is we don't. In fact as shown in table one, the rise in estrogen and test across six straight days of application in 10men of varying age with similar doses of dhea to what we use in sports applications, are negligent(even without a co-administered AI)... if application site when administering dhea[specifically] had such great bearing on the results it would have shown here but all we see is immediate rise in dheas levels.
The fact is a majority of the conversions that effect dhea and its far downstream metabolites (test, dht, estrogen) and to a lesser degree even its one step conversions (androstenedione, androstenediol, 7 keto), occur over a period of time through systematic conversions and interactions with enzymes located elsewhere other then the dermis itself. This is apparent considering the majority of rise, in these levels of hormones mentioned, occur AFTER cessation, across a5 week period from systematic conversions since this was a blood draw and not dermal samples.
I'm not misrepresenting any of the info provided in this study, at a glance this study seems to not provide much info on dhea when administered in td fashion especially considering the supposed cheques and balances that many companies try to include in their sports supplements.... but when you set aside your immediate assumptions as to what SHOULD happen, read the study as to what actually happens then revert and apply that to your existing knowledge you realize the many flaws in such a sports supplement, the gaps that are left when cheques and balances don't continue typically for weeks after administration and that typical site specific prejudice doesn't seem to hold any bearing in this situation... then you may find yourself coming to the same conclusions i have.
Let's hope BPS has taken all of this into consideration and that the final product will represent a much more complete sports application that previous developers failed to achieve yet still retain the inherent beneficial qualities as a health supplement to the limited market in need of such basic supplementation... it will tough to do both honestly.
Resolve
The BPS Rep
Wow, mountain of text for a lot of speculationi. Of course suppression occurs, your introducing exogenous hormones - where you expecting the body to not adjust to that?
And read beyond page 2? I did. Table 1, which clearly states "NS" (non-significant) changes in estrogen levels is on page 3. Figure 2 is on page 5.
And if you're concerned over E levels rising after DHEA usage, like figure 2 shows, well that's exactly what PCT is for. Of course there are going to be endocrinological shifts after you cease using a hormone. Controlling Estrogen rebound is why AIs are part of PCT - this isn't anything new or unique to DHEA.
Furthermore, if you're still concerned over on cycle E conversion (which this paper states is non-significant), we have this awesome product called Formasurge designed for just that purpose.
Let's look at estrogen in the figures:
Fig1. Shift in Estradiol is insignificant for the sample (that 'NS' again), with only a 45 year old and a 72 year old showing concentration changes of more than ~0.1nM. In fact, E levels dropped (though insignificantly) for 2 55yos and a 69yo.
Fig2. Significant shift in average E after cessation of treatment, due to lack of PCT as we've addressed. On cycle E change looks about to be maybe from ~0.07nm to ~0.12nm, incredibly small and only the initial and final concentrations are stated to be significant from what I can see. Look at the size of those error bars! That one 45 year-old from fig 1 is really shifting the stats here. That drop in luteinizing hormone? Probably due to the increase in test post treatment. Again, PCT would moderate that.
Fig3. Lipids stay stable, yahoo.
MrKleen73
Legend
Me thinks that you may have Resolve'd many of the issues he is addressing. PUN intended!
I was beginning to wonder if the normal practice of a PCT was not being considered in his statements myself. I know many people argue that "we" the supplement companies recommend PCT just to make money and especially with regard to something like Dermacrine.
As with any other hormonal product when you run it there is a need to cycle it, and have a post cycle regimen. I think the only real question should be in that case whether or not the person would need to include a SERM to restore HPTA function more quickly with out causing a cascade of catabolic hormonal reactions.
SD, I would agree with you that running any hormonal product at super-physiological levels and not taking the responsible approach by using things that alleviate the sides you create by enhancing the anabolic hormones is a bad thing. However an AI or Estrogen modulator on cycle and an AI during pct would alleviate all of these.
I don't think that anyone enters into hormonal supplementation should do so without proper research. However that is not the supplement companies responsibility to ensure the research has been done. Much less that the conclusions drawn from that research will result in the person making the correct decisions. I can not tell you how often I hear, but do I really need to do a PCT? Sometimes these people are talking about running DMZ or Superdrol...
I would be curious if you have some literature from a test where an AI, slowed aromatization, and Pregnenolon was included to help balance the rest of the hormones out? Would that not by limiting aromatization enzyme availability systematically lower Estrogen conversion and increase conversion into androgens since the conversion process would not be limited there and only at the systemic level regarding aromatization to estrogen?
Also people calling the Dermacrine a test base are typically feeling the positive effects of 2 things... 1 the pregnenolone which levels lower on cycle, and 2 the conversion of DHEA to healthy levels of estrogen that typically are low on cycles that do not include aromatizing steroidal compounds. Like, EPI, SD, and many others which are known to drop libido and energy which are signs of extremely low estrogen?
southsideguy
Member
Sourdough said:
PP has a 4-DHEA product...
Sourdough
Well-known member
southsideguy said:
For a ridiculous price and not in a transdermal application which is actually much cheaper to make then their special liquavade delivery systems....
We need an option other then theirs and ams cyclo tabs... transdermal beats both of these imo and again it's pretty cheap to even develops a great carrier.
Sourdough
Well-known member
Resolve/kleen-
i do think many issues can be avoided if a strong enough ai is used throughout and into pct. But this still is something to look at and cause you to think... also the effects will be significantly compounded when taken over a 30 day course AND the fact that dhea and 5-androstenedione both can inherently interact with the er and cause problems unavoidable through an ai administration.
I just think that so much more can be done then throwing plain dhea into a td solution(which costs less then 10 dollars per 8oz bottle for ME to do, it's gotta be insanely cheap for mass production) and adding an ai....
I know this is supposed to be something new so maybe my worries don't even apply. But I'm still going to make them known to try to help perpetuate a better market with viable options for a legal test base...or at least not just another dhea hashed concoction.
i do think many issues can be avoided if a strong enough ai is used throughout and into pct. But this still is something to look at and cause you to think... also the effects will be significantly compounded when taken over a 30 day course AND the fact that dhea and 5-androstenedione both can inherently interact with the er and cause problems unavoidable through an ai administration.
I just think that so much more can be done then throwing plain dhea into a td solution(which costs less then 10 dollars per 8oz bottle for ME to do, it's gotta be insanely cheap for mass production) and adding an ai....
I know this is supposed to be something new so maybe my worries don't even apply. But I'm still going to make them known to try to help perpetuate a better market with viable options for a legal test base...or at least not just another dhea hashed concoction.
southsideguy
Member
Sourdough said:
It's transdermal (AndroEnhance), but the price is a bit steep though.
I purchased 3 tubes, they did mention that they were working to get the price down
Sourdough
Well-known member
Wooow... ridiculous as expected.... 129 bucks.
Even worse it seems to be proprietary? AND is got 11oxo in it, listed in the ingredients BEFORE the 4dhea....
If you know much about primordials carrier at all(they used to sell penetrate separate and i used it all the time for my powders) their carrier is all of 15-18 bucks at the retail level(obviously not their cost) and can hold at MAX 50mg a ml and even then it's pushing saturation levels.... Primordial would never push these saturation levels, they suggest no more then 30mg/ml typically... this means that they are splitting this volume between the 2 compounds contained... it's gonna take a TON of this cream to even get a viable dose and you'll likely run out of application area before you even get to that point.
Some of this stuff makes me sick. 4 androstenediol powder used to go for less then a dollar a gram at times.... dhea now can be had in order still for even less... premade td creams can cost less then 10 bucks, real good ones for less then 20 and custom made one's are REAL CHEAP specially with dmso in the mix... the cost for this 4dhea powder can't possibly be so high to warrant this kind of markup to cover overhead and provide profit....
I'll be stocking up on all these designers and fast before the next (last) ban rolls cause I'm not paying hundreds for dhea analogues.
Even worse it seems to be proprietary? AND is got 11oxo in it, listed in the ingredients BEFORE the 4dhea....
If you know much about primordials carrier at all(they used to sell penetrate separate and i used it all the time for my powders) their carrier is all of 15-18 bucks at the retail level(obviously not their cost) and can hold at MAX 50mg a ml and even then it's pushing saturation levels.... Primordial would never push these saturation levels, they suggest no more then 30mg/ml typically... this means that they are splitting this volume between the 2 compounds contained... it's gonna take a TON of this cream to even get a viable dose and you'll likely run out of application area before you even get to that point.
Some of this stuff makes me sick. 4 androstenediol powder used to go for less then a dollar a gram at times.... dhea now can be had in order still for even less... premade td creams can cost less then 10 bucks, real good ones for less then 20 and custom made one's are REAL CHEAP specially with dmso in the mix... the cost for this 4dhea powder can't possibly be so high to warrant this kind of markup to cover overhead and provide profit....
I'll be stocking up on all these designers and fast before the next (last) ban rolls cause I'm not paying hundreds for dhea analogues.
southsideguy
Member
Sourdough said:
That's very good info Sourdough. I'll still be purchasing PP products; but extremely important information nonetheless.
I've been shopping with Eric since 2006.(or 2005, can't remember)
oufinny
Well-known member
Yes, this. Back on topic.
jwa254
Well-known member
Ape McGrapes
Well-known member
Just give us 8 weeks of product. DHEA is dirt cheap as SD has said. Unless your adding in other significant ingredients, that would warant the price.
MrKleen73
Legend
I agree, back on track. PP is a well respected company and we don't want any negative talk about them in here.
SourDough, this new product will be better than you expect because BPS is formulating it. Certainly BPS liked the Dermacrine which is why they licensed the use of it. However BPS decided to come out with something that the owners of BPS feel is much improved. BPS does not put out undue hype on their products they put science to the test and come out with Performance Solutions.
SourDough, this new product will be better than you expect because BPS is formulating it. Certainly BPS liked the Dermacrine which is why they licensed the use of it. However BPS decided to come out with something that the owners of BPS feel is much improved. BPS does not put out undue hype on their products they put science to the test and come out with Performance Solutions.
metroba
Legend
There will be 60 servings. I can tell you that much.
metroba
Legend
Very soon. Currently Vanillean is the product due to release first so this will be next.
Dermacrine is no longer licensed by BPS.
It's not so much additions as it is a completely different formula.
MrKleen73
Legend
BPS products are notoriously well priced. Why they should supply 8 weeks in a bottle when use of 4-6 is what is recommended is beyond me. Unless trying to stick it to a competitor by making something as a slap in the face instead of intending to make profit off of it. Besides you have to consider other things in price like labeling, manufacturing, marketing costs, the need to make a profit. Not to mention you are paying for the convenience of not having to get the ingredients to make your own transdermal solution, and sourcing the raws, measuring it all out accurately and creating your own solution. That could take some time and annoyance. If I spend 2 hours of my time making a "$10.00 bottle of dhea transdermal" at my hourly wages I just spent a whole lot more than what is being charged for most products. Not to mention my personal time is more valuable to me than my work hours. You can't just add up the cost of raws and say this is all that the product is worth spending and anything else is overcharging for it. If that were the case then you would not be looking for a product but but instead creating your own. Certainly we all want a good deal but I think we can all agree that BPS keeps their prices more than reasonable for their products. They do not over inflate them nor under dose them.
Not sure where any Dermacrine is for sale. We no longer carry it in our line. This product is still in the process of creation / manufacturing.
I don't think it will be too long from what I understand but BPS or Metroba can shed more light on that subject. Also Like us on Invalid Link Removed lots of the trickle down information is posted out there before it hits the forums.