BMP Improved Formula & The Solution

[The Solution]

Wait, now I’m confused. You’ve ran the same program twice before, so you know what to expect. That’s cool. But this second time around, all the weights and whatnot are exactly the same? Regardless of the product, doesn’t that mean the program isn’t working? Are you in a stall? If I was still using the same weight and reps on squats, for example, as I was 6 weeks ago (while gaining, not deliberately cutting), I’d be figuring that out. Just trying to understand...

I ran the program
Took deload
Ran program 2nd time (With BMP)

Logbook is the same. This is a sure way to see if any of the product claims match what should happen when taken with a consistent diet and training program.

You also assume I am trying to gain or in a surplus, which I already addressed on page 1. I am right around maintenance or slightly below and have been this entire run (no changes in my nutrition). I am not going to alter my nutrition (just start adding calories every week) and then start to say oh well BMP is helping me gain size and strength when in reality it could be mostly from a surplus of calories and not the product. I have held my strength while trying to maintain or lose a bit of butter, so I am not mad at all.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I ran the program
Took deload
Ran program 2nd time (With BMP)

Logbook is the same. This is a sure way to see if any of the product claims match what should happen when taken with a consistent diet and training program.

You also assume I am trying to gain or in a surplus, which I already addressed on page 1. I am right around maintenance or slightly below and have been this entire run (no changes in my nutrition). I am not going to alter my nutrition (just start adding calories every week) and then start to say oh well BMP is helping me gain size and strength when in reality it could be mostly from a surplus of calories and not the product. I have held my strength while trying to maintain or lose a bit of butter, so I am not mad at all.

I agree with not adding kcal and attributing to the wrong thing. For example, if 3000kcal is my maintenance, I’ll still gain at maintenance kcal if I add 500mg testosterone cypionate per week. But, if I run that dose of test and run the same program with the same weights and reps prescribed, I’ll never see what the product could achieve maximally. I have to actually to some more weight on the bar or add more reps to see the gains, right? Or are the reps not prescribed, just the intensities and your supposed to work toward failure and your saying that your reps til failure isn’t changing?

 

[The Solution]

I agree with not adding kcal and attributing to the wrong thing. For example, if 3000kcal is my maintenance, I’ll still gain at maintenance kcal if I add 500mg testosterone cypionate per week. But, if I run that dose of test and run the same program with the same weights and reps prescribed, I’ll never see what the product could achieve maximally. I have to actually to some more weight on the bar or add more reps to see the gains, right? Or are the reps not prescribed, just the intensities and your supposed to work toward failure and your saying that your reps til failure isn’t changing?

Already stated this.
Its outlined and the RPE's are adjusted for the weeks on the program.

This way I can take my first 6 weeks (Ran without BMP) ---> Record weights
Took a deload
2nd Run of program (where I am using BMP) ---> Record Weights
to see if there is a difference in the logbook and additions of what Matt/Evomuse has stated in the writeup.

I don't think its fair to use 500mg of Test and compare it to BMP. That is way beyond comparable.

 

[Ptlhains]

Vector did not work for a lot of people.
I got criticized because I would not add 100-150 calories every single week, which doesn't state how well a "Supplement" works. It takes it out of a controlled environment where you play the guessing game of how much X (Caloric Surplus) and Y (The supplement) dictates the results. You do not have any clue because it becomes a guessing game. People who constantly skew their nutrition or follow a yo-yo diet can't give you 100% feedback on a "Supplement' which should "Supplement" the consistent diet and training program.

Cel and Vector have allot in common - I was pointing out that Bob logging Cel would be interesting since its main ingredients (Vector) don't work for him. Possibly Cel's additional ingredients, profile, extraction techniques, synergy etc... may work for @TheSolution?

 

[MrKleen73]

I agree with not adding kcal and attributing to the wrong thing. For example, if 3000kcal is my maintenance, I’ll still gain at maintenance kcal if I add 500mg testosterone cypionate per week. But, if I run that dose of test and run the same program with the same weights and reps prescribed, I’ll never see what the product could achieve maximally. I have to actually to some more weight on the bar or add more reps to see the gains, right? Or are the reps not prescribed, just the intensities and your supposed to work toward failure and your saying that your reps til failure isn’t changing?

It sounds like to me that he is saying strength has not changed. What was an RPE8 for him the first time while close to maintenance is still and RPE8 this time while on the same caloric intake. So basically his maintenance is actually a true maintenance level. If he sees that he has leaned up a little then we have a winner to some extent, but if not he has not seen any effect from the product as of yet.

Bottom line if thinking about this as someone focusing on increasing strength or size then you are not really paying attention to what he is trying to accomplish with the log. If this is not working the same amount of calories and the same amount of effort will produce stagnant results. If his composition improves during this time with the same amount of fuel and effort then the product benefited him.

 

[dsade]

It sounds like to me that he is saying strength has not changed. What was an RPE8 for him the first time while close to maintenance is still and RPE8 this time while on the same caloric intake. So basically his maintenance is actually a true maintenance level. If he sees that he has leaned up a little then we have a winner to some extent, but if not he has not seen any effect from the product as of yet.

Bottom line if thinking about this as someone focusing on increasing strength or size then you are not really paying attention to what he is trying to accomplish with the log. If this is not working the same amount of calories and the same amount of effort will produce stagnant results. If his composition improves during this time with the same amount of fuel and effort then the product benefited him.

This is what I'm watching for. I knew this was going to be an unconventional log, with more subtle results. No idea how the timeline to effectiveness will be, so I'm just watching.

 

[MrKleen73]

Another thing to consider is also placebo to a degree. We all know that due to Bob's experience with most natty products there is no way he gets the benefit of any placebo effects from a product. He just gets what he gets, or he doesn't that's it. Others experience with the products are also going to have to do with how much they believe in the product regardless of how effective it actually is. So where Bob might see a small but noticeable improvement someone who has the benefit of placebo will likely respond much better due to the combination of a working product and placebo.

In the end if Bob looks leaner and says he got something from the product then I imagine you will see others getting even better results. If he does see a little something without manipulating anything then imagine if he chose to cater his nutrition to a specific goal with this as an assist, that would be a different log altogether. Which is often the log people seem to want to see, but he is testing a product, not pushing everything to the max to get the most out of it.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Already stated this.
Its outlined and the RPE's are adjusted for the weeks on the program.

This way I can take my first 6 weeks (Ran without BMP) ---> Record weights
Took a deload
2nd Run of program (where I am using BMP) ---> Record Weights
to see if there is a difference in the logbook and additions of what Matt/Evomuse has stated in the writeup.

I don't think its fair to use 500mg of Test and compare it to BMP. That is way beyond comparable.

Ok. Regarding testosterone as the example, of course it’s not a fair comparison. I use it in examples like this though everyone gains on testosterone. There are no ‘nonresponders’.
Obviously BMP won’t do what testosterone cyp is going to do.

It sounds like to me that he is saying strength has not changed. What was an RPE8 for him the first time while close to maintenance is still and RPE8 this time while on the same caloric intake. So basically his maintenance is actually a true maintenance level. If he sees that he has leaned up a little then we have a winner to some extent, but if not he has not seen any effect from the product as of yet.

Bottom line if thinking about this as someone focusing on increasing strength or size then you are not really paying attention to what he is trying to accomplish with the log. If this is not working the same amount of calories and the same amount of effort will produce stagnant results. If his composition improves during this time with the same amount of fuel and effort then the product benefited him.

Cool beans.

 

[MrKleen73]

Ok. Regarding testosterone as the example, of course it’s not a fair comparison. I use it in examples like this though everyone gains on testosterone. There are no ‘nonresponders’.
Obviously BMP won’t do what testosterone cyp is going to do.


Ok, but there’s only a few goals possible. Did I improve body composition (gain muscle and lose fat) or did I gain/hold strength? I can’t say “my goal is to improve body composition, not gain muscle.” That means he’s trying to lose fat, then it’s a cutting log. By improving body composition, hopefully I’m gaining muscle and losing fat, right? The product can work in several new pathways, but it still comes down to building muscle, losing fat, and gaining strength. But I do agree with the issues in other logs about changing 15 things then giving all the credit to the supplement. That’s not right. Anyway, cool beans.

No, a cutting log someone runs in a caloric deficit. A bulking log someone runs in a caloric surplus, A Recomp log someone eats at maintenance while training for gains. I agree in all of those aspects. However, A true product testing log should be done with controls, as he is doing here. If the product is working it will either improve the response to his training stimulus, or it will not. The onus is on the product to prove it has something to offer above and beyond the initial response with the same stimulus.

His program works VIA RPE scale, and even though he is using the same weight and reps, those same weights would have felt lighter resulting in needing more reps, or adding weight to achieve the same RPE which is not happening as of yet. It isn't like he isn't working hard. If his perceived effort has not changed with the same weight then he has not progressed, or at least not enough to be measured via the RPE scale which he is quite familiar with.

Improving composition does not actually require the addition of muscle. If someone is 200lbs @25% fat with 150lbs of LBM and drops 20lbs while maintaining muscle mass they have improved their composition, to go one further even if that person lost a couple lbs of LBM in the process they would still have improved the body composition. However I do get where you are coming from there.

You are correct though if he were to adjust his training to increase strength he would likely see more strength increase and so on... However we wouldn't know if the product did anything or the adjustments.

I never expect to see anything drastic in any product log of Bob's. If I actually did I would be shocked because he is damn near clinical about seeing what the product can do instead of ramping things up and making the products look good. So many guys I know on her get their nutrition right and make some great strides and then give the credit to whatever supplement they were on instead of the increased discipline levels they apply during logs while everyone is watching. I do it too. I wanna get the most out of the products and change everything for my goals. However I am not testing the product and if it sucks I want to believe it is awesome so I can take advantage of the placebo effect.

Most logs end up being let me see what all progress I can make while on the product and not based in, is this product actually doing anything for me. Bob is more like a quality tester, and not a results chaser in that aspect. I love the he does this so I don't have to. I prefer to use my logs as motivation and accountability for myself. You are damn sure I am going to try to get the most out of my stuff and cater toward my goals when running a product, but I am not actually testing anything because their are not true controls.

By the way just conversing here...

 

[scoooter]

Trying my best to follow but admittedly I'm confused. Just got a couple thoughts & questions (Bob).

The workout program in use was run initially (condition 1) and then this second time using BMP (condition 2). This I understand, however, the program remained unchanged is how I read it, so if you were to plot out the statistics of weights/reps/sets, for each condition (1 vs 2), they would be mirror images and a consistently flat line meaning no changes occurred, true ?

If your caloric intake were also plotted it to would be flat and unchanged ?

What you are using to determine the supplements results/effects is based on changes to your physique (looks) ?

Do you log body part size ? or just using the mirror

I've enjoyed several of your logs because you provide a different perspective. Albeit, you are only a single data point in a much larger group of users

 

[The Solution]

Trying my best to follow but admittedly I'm confused. Just got a couple thoughts & questions (Bob).

The workout program in use was run initially (condition 1) and then this second time using BMP (condition 2). This I understand, however, the program remained unchanged is how I read it, so if you were to plot out the statistics of weights/reps/sets, for each condition (1 vs 2), they would be mirror images and a consistently flat line meaning no changes occurred, true ?

If your caloric intake were also plotted it to would be flat and unchanged ?

What you are using to determine the supplements results/effects is based on changes to your physique (looks) ?

Do you log body part size ? or just using the mirror

1 - If taking BMP had any impact on strength or anything to optimize performance it would be noted or signified. There was no changing in the first 6 weeks compared to running that program with BMP, so there have been no improvements with the addition of the supplement.

Intake has not changed as stated throughout the log. So I can control all training and nutrition variables without skewing them.

Mirror . Its the best form of change, which is why I will get final pics to show before and after.

 

[GreenMachineX]

No, a cutting log someone runs in a caloric deficit. A bulking log someone runs in a caloric surplus, A Recomp log someone eats at maintenance while training for gains. I agree in all of those aspects. However, A true product testing log should be done with controls, as he is doing here. If the product is working it will either improve the response to his training stimulus, or it will not. The onus is on the product to prove it has something to offer above and beyond the initial response with the same stimulus.

His program works VIA RPE scale, and even though he is using the same weight and reps, those same weights would have felt lighter resulting in needing more reps, or adding weight to achieve the same RPE which is not happening as of yet. It isn't like he isn't working hard. If his perceived effort has not changed with the same weight then he has not progressed, or at least not enough to be measured via the RPE scale which he is quite familiar with.

Improving composition does not actually require the addition of muscle. If someone is 200lbs @25% fat with 150lbs of LBM and drops 20lbs while maintaining muscle mass they have improved their composition, to go one further even if that person lost a couple lbs of LBM in the process they would still have improved the body composition. However I do get where you are coming from there.

You are correct though if he were to adjust his training to increase strength he would likely see more strength increase and so on... However we wouldn't know if the product did anything or the adjustments.

I never expect to see anything drastic in any product log of Bob's. If I actually did I would be shocked because he is damn near clinical about seeing what the product can do instead of ramping things up and making the products look good. So many guys I know on her get their nutrition right and make some great strides and then give the credit to whatever supplement they were on instead of the increased discipline levels they apply during logs while everyone is watching. I do it too. I wanna get the most out of the products and change everything for my goals. However I am not testing the product and if it sucks I want to believe it is awesome so I can take advantage of the placebo effect.

Most logs end up being let me see what all progress I can make while on the product and not based in, is this product actually doing anything for me. Bob is more like a quality tester, and not a results chaser in that aspect. I love the he does this so I don't have to. I prefer to use my logs as motivation and accountability for myself. You are damn sure I am going to try to get the most out of my stuff and cater toward my goals when running a product, but I am not actually testing anything because their are not true controls.

By the way just conversing here...

Agreed, but isn’t something wrong though if everything is exactly the same as last time like I originally brought up, regardless of any product? If I run a specific training program, my results better be better than last time I did, regardless of any extra products.

 

[MrKleen73]

Agreed, but isn’t something wrong though if everything is exactly the same as last time like I originally brought up, regardless of any product? If I run a specific training program, my results better be better than last time I did, regardless of any extra products.

Yes but are you trying to maintain when doing that? I assume if you ran a program you would also be trying to get the most out of the program, and probably progressively overloading both weights and nutrition for progress. He is not feeding himself for progress, so it would require that some other external factor would have to pick up the slack to create that progress, in this case the product should be that factor. If it stimulates growth then he will add some muscle or at least lose some fat in an effort to direct more of the nutrition being eating toward growth or muscle maintenance.

To draw the parallel you mentioned earlier, if Bob suddenly went on a cycle and did not change his training or diet at all his body would look much different at the end of the cycle even with the same training, load and nutrition. He would definitely add muscle and lean up. His body would just be that much more anabolic. Well with this the same would hold true but on a MUCH smaller scale. If he changes nothing but gets better results then the product has proven itself to work. If not then it has not. To put into perspective if he drops 2lbs and looks leaner without changing anything else then we know he got something out of it and it was all the product. If that ends up being the case then that is actually pretty solid progress for a natty product in a month. I think part of the problem is people would not see that is much progress or change but it would be pretty huge. Just peoples expectations have been so hyped up that if something doesn't seem sensational then it isn't working. Now whether that 2 lb difference is worth it to him or someone else to buy the product depends on perception.

 

[Wobmarvel]

Similar to sarms testing in some trials. In one trial geriatrics were given doses of lgd (may have been ostarine). Over 16 weeks with the same sedentary lifestyle, no training and no change in diet some gained 2 to 3 lbs of lean bodyweight.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Your missing the point
With the addition of the product there should be changes given the write up and its properties.
Therefore what is "Proclaimed" or "What one should experience" on BMP has been noted. If I can slowly recomp or change in the mirror while maintaining my strength BMP played a vital role in helping me improve body composition.

If as trainees we could run programs for 5-10-15 years and continually make progress we would all look like professional bodybuilders. It simply does not work that way.

Again you tried to compare 500mg of test to BMP so I mean thats a far cry on a good analogy to compare a natural product to a high dose of test with all things consistent (nutrition and training)

Agree with first 2 paragraphs, but I never compared BMP to testosterone. Your missing the point. It’s the perfect example to use in what I was saying because it’s proven to work every time for everyone. Everyone responds. That’s the point. Isn’t that what we hope for in all products as well?

 

[HIT4ME]

This is the point I've been making all thread though - what does anyone expect to notice in 30 days beyond weight increases in the gym? This IS NOT testosterone. This is a natural product. You aren't going to gain 10 pounds of muscle and drop 5 pounds of fat in 30 days on it.

Someone who goes from benching 225 x 5 to 235 x 5 will have a hard time telling the delta in RPE at 5 X 185. Right?

It is just too subjective and easy to miss.

 

[GreenMachineX]

Similar to sarms testing in some trials. In one trial geriatrics were given doses of lgd (may have been ostarine). Over 16 weeks with the same sedentary lifestyle, no training and no change in diet some gained 2 to 3 lbs of lean bodyweight.

True. I can get with this and what Mr Kleen just said.

 

[GreenMachineX]

This is the point I've been making all thread though - what does anyone expect to notice in 30 days beyond weight increases in the gym? This IS NOT testosterone. This is a natural product. You aren't going to gain 10 pounds of muscle and drop 5 pounds of fat in 30 days on it.

Someone who goes from benching 225 x 5 to 235 x 5 will have a hard time telling the delta in RPE at 5 X 185. Right?

It is just too subjective and easy to miss.

Excellent points. 1 bottle isn't enough.

 

[HIT4ME]

Excellent points. 1 bottle isn't enough.

I almost hate to go that far with it - it sounds like a sale pitch to me, "It didn't work?? Buy more!! You need to let it work!" Which I know is not your intention - but I don't want to come off that way.

My question is - we know creatine works. It has evidence. There are some non-responders but not a lot. Would we expect to see a dramatic change in RPE with that in 30 days? Maybe for some hyper responders. Would we expect to see dramatic compositional changes in 30 days? Maybe bloating. But I'm not sure what the expectations are and the measuring doesn't seem to be very realistic.

I do applaud the stability/control of the log.

 

[GreenMachineX]

I almost hate to go that far with it - it sounds like a sale pitch to me, "It didn't work?? Buy more!! You need to let it work!" Which I know is not your intention - but I don't want to come off that way.

My question is - we know creatine works. It has evidence. There are some non-responders but not a lot. Would we expect to see a dramatic change in RPE with that in 30 days? Maybe for some hyper responders. Would we expect to see dramatic compositional changes in 30 days? Maybe bloating. But I'm not sure what the expectations are and the measuring doesn't seem to be very realistic.

I do applaud the stability/control of the log.

Right. And for the record, I have no affiliation with Evomuse other than being a customer for years, and buying Matt’s other stuff with previous his previous companies. But the truth is, there’s a good reason lots of studies go well beyond 30 days.

 

[HIT4ME]

Right. And for the record, I have no affiliation with Evomuse other than being a customer for years, and buying Matt’s other stuff with previous his previous companies. But the truth is, there’s a good reason lots of studies go well beyond 30 days.

For the record, I DO have an affiliation with Matt - I handle some sales accounts for him and I am a friend...but that aside, I really like BMP so I'm just getting teary eyed over all this. haha.

 

[MrKleen73]

This is the point I've been making all thread though - what does anyone expect to notice in 30 days beyond weight increases in the gym? This IS NOT testosterone. This is a natural product. You aren't going to gain 10 pounds of muscle and drop 5 pounds of fat in 30 days on it.

Someone who goes from benching 225 x 5 to 235 x 5 will have a hard time telling the delta in RPE at 5 X 185. Right?

It is just too subjective and easy to miss.

Well yes and no. Everyone here knows this is a natty product so if anyone was expecting anything like a steroid cycle they are crazy. Also ain't nobody gaining 10lbs of muscle and dropping 5 lbs of fat in a month from testosterone unless mainlining short estered testosterone. It simply isn't that strong.

If he drops a couple LBs then it will be obvious. I think we can all agree that a month might not be long enough to see much here. I don't think anyone was expecting to see a lot of progress in a month. However, if I am training to an RPE8 and being honest with myself about it I can easily tell if something got easier than last time and make note of it.

I am not really sure what you mean with all the different numbers for your example. Maybe I am missing the relevance of the multiple weights you listed. From what Bob has attested too, on each lift he has been able to match the weights he used on the same day of the training cycle but no more, so their are not 3 variable weights. Basically if Day 3 of training cycle 1 was bench 225x5 for rpe5, and Day 3 of training cycle 2, he used the same weight and reps with the same effort perceived.

Its not like he is trying to correlate what the RPE of 185x5 should be based off of the RPE that 225x5 was for him. He is comparing what 225x5 felt like compared to what 225x5 felt like. If he needed to do 6 reps, or felt he needed to go up to 230 to be at an RPE8 then that would show progress. He hasn't experienced that as of yet, and that isn't that subjective, it is a direct comparison. The only thing that could be subjective about it is what he considers to be an RPE8 but as long as that does not change in between cycles it is still consistent for him.

All this is saying is that he hasn't gotten any stronger as a result of the product. Does not mean he is not getting any benefit.

 

[HIT4ME]

Well yes and no. Everyone here knows this is a natty product so if anyone was expecting anything like a steroid cycle they are crazy. Also ain't nobody gaining 10lbs of muscle and dropping 5 lbs of fat in a month from testosterone unless mainlining short estered testosterone. It simply isn't that strong.

If he drops a couple LBs then it will be obvious. I think we can all agree that a month might not be long enough to see much here. I don't think anyone was expecting to see a lot of progress in a month. However, if I am training to an RPE8 and being honest with myself about it I can easily tell if something got easier than last time and make note of it.

I am not really sure what you mean with all the different numbers for your example. Maybe I am missing the relevance of the multiple weights you listed. From what Bob has attested too, on each lift he has been able to match the weights he used on the same day of the training cycle but no more, so their are not 3 variable weights. Basically if Day 3 of training cycle 1 was bench 225x5 for rpe5, and Day 3 of training cycle 2, he used the same weight and reps with the same effort perceived.

Its not like he is trying to correlate what the RPE of 185x5 should be based off of the RPE that 225x5 was for him. He is comparing what 225x5 felt like compared to what 225x5 felt like. If he needed to do 6 reps, or felt he needed to go up to 230 to be at an RPE8 then that would show progress. He hasn't experienced that as of yet, and that isn't that subjective, it is a direct comparison. The only thing that could be subjective about it is what he considers to be an RPE8 but as long as that does not change in between cycles it is still consistent for him.

All this is saying is that he hasn't gotten any stronger as a result of the product. Does not mean he is not getting any benefit.

The point is, the best guage of muscle gain over 30 days is going to be strength gain. But strength gain over 30 days isn't going to have a huge change in RPE either. Especially if you aren't even training to failure on a lot of it.

For example. My bench today, 1RM is 225. My 8 RM is 180. In 2 weeks my 1RM is 235. My 8RM is now 188 - and my 9RM is now 176. I may not be able to get 9 reps with 180 (since it is still past my 9RM), and the perception that 8 reps is easier will kind of be lost on me. My perception is "no change" - but I've had a pretty good change.

Of course, this assumes I am even trying for that 9th rep, which doesn't seem to be the case as the log could be pretty much filled out for next week right now based on the first 3 weeks.

But the example I was giving also called into account that we saw bench presses with 80 pound dumbbells for bench presses for 2 weeks, and then in week 3 it is suddenly 110 pound dumbbells for the same exact volume.

The point being that either we are just going by the template and a subjective view of "it's easier or it's harder" or we just saw a significant increase in strength. I am inclined to actually believe that the 110's were always a capability, so how would 80's increase that output for the first two weeks? This falls somewhere in between "I can do 110's and I was pushing all out by using 110's all 3 weeks" and "I can do 110's but I sat on the couch for 2 weeks and when I came back there was no significant improvement."

Now, maybe there is some conditioning improvements, but are we measuring VO2 max? Or just being subjective again?

 

[dcoen21]

This is why I don’t like logs to many variables, I rather just buy the product and decide for myself. People take creatine and gain 10lbs and some don’t see anything from it, some take test and turn into hulk and there before pictures look like they don’t know what a gym is. Take everything with a grain of salt in the end it’s just someone’s opinion.

 

[MrKleen73]

The point is, the best guage of muscle gain over 30 days is going to be strength gain. But strength gain over 30 days isn't going to have a huge change in RPE either. Especially if you aren't even training to failure on a lot of it.

For example. My bench today, 1RM is 225. My 8 RM is 180. In 2 weeks my 1RM is 235. My 8RM is now 188 - and my 9RM is now 176. I may not be able to get 9 reps with 180 (since it is still past my 9RM), and the perception that 8 reps is easier will kind of be lost on me. My perception is "no change" - but I've had a pretty good change.

Of course, this assumes I am even trying for that 9th rep, which doesn't seem to be the case as the log could be pretty much filled out for next week right now based on the first 3 weeks.

But the example I was giving also called into account that we saw bench presses with 80 pound dumbbells for bench presses for 2 weeks, and then in week 3 it is suddenly 110 pound dumbbells for the same exact volume.

The point being that either we are just going by the template and a subjective view of "it's easier or it's harder" or we just saw a significant increase in strength. I am inclined to actually believe that the 110's were always a capability, so how would 80's increase that output for the first two weeks? This falls somewhere in between "I can do 110's and I was pushing all out by using 110's all 3 weeks" and "I can do 110's but I sat on the couch for 2 weeks and when I came back there was no significant improvement."

Now, maybe there is some conditioning improvements, but are we measuring VO2 max? Or just being subjective again?

Well to your example unless those are your real numbers and not based on formulas to estimate rep maxes that are based on peoples average lifting capabilities everything there is quite subjective as well. My rep numbers never correlate with my max once over 5-6 reps. I just have a lot of fast twitch fibers, and very explosive and burn out faster. So those numbers seem absolute because you were able to make them look specific but unless your actual numbers it is no more or less subjective than the RPE.

I do see where you are going with that but to say that that a person would not feel that the rep was moving faster than it did before, or was easier would be lost on them. Especially for someone who tries to beat the log book and takes notes about each exercise performed. I just don't see how that is possible. See we were talking about an RPE8 here, which means there is still an RPE9 on the table. I can't speak for him, but if I felt like I had to do another rep to get to RPE8 I would try and if it put me into an RPE9 I would mention I overshot the RPE for the set. It is pretty easy for me to tell when I only have about 2 more reps left in the tank. However every once in a while I think I have more and push to find out I could complete the rep but it put me at a grinding RPE9 or even 10.

 

[mechka_grizli]

Idk I see what Bob and kleen are saying but I also see what others are saying. To run a program twice and not see any changes from one run to the next, regardless of any supplement is confusing.

Also, there is the case that some supplements do require an increase in a variable to gauge effectiveness

 

[Wobmarvel]

Idk I see what Bob and kleen are saying but I also see what others are saying. To run a program twice and not see any changes from one run to the next, regardless of any supplement is confusing.

Also, there is the case that some supplements do require an increase in a variable to gauge effectiveness

This debate will never end. Ideally we need about 20 clones of Bob, one to do what he is doing, one to run at a calorie surplus, one at a deficit, one to increase resistance, one to increase resistance and run at a surplus etc. Not to mention another 20 clones all starting at the same weight doing all these experiments without taking the supplement to compare.

 

[The Solution]

Since I keep getting passed over though I’ll try another approach.

What other products did you add during this? You say you pride yourself on not changing things during logs like this, but I don’t see any mention of other changes like what pre workouts (that maybe have other ingredients new to you) maybe you’ve sampled (since you seem to review everything) or any other changes throughout?

Pre -
1 Scoop Fullblitz & VasoBlitz
I Used Alpha Pump for 5 workouts (no stims added)

Year-Round: (Health Stack)
Flexatril
Gut Health
OT
Oximega
Vitamin D3 5000 IU
Orange Beat (Started Aug 2nd Which was Day 5 of Log) Will be a year-round staple.

Whey / Intra:
Whey
Xtend Elite

 

[The Solution]

Starting Progress Pics
Weight: 175

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Progress Pics:
Weight: 173.5

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Need to keep work on my posing (Even in the offseason) my rear lat has always been a bad pose for me.

 

[UKG]

No improvements in workout recovery?

Just confused because you wrote a review for Orange Beat, which you had to have added while using this, that said you were seeing improved recovery during workouts.

Just wondering how you could tell it was helping your workouts but apparently not BMP.

I can’t find the orange beat review you refer to?

 

[LeanEngineer]

Looking lean and mean at 173 even in the off season!

 

[UKG]

Thanks, so no claim of improved recovery unless I’m missing something?

 

[dsade]

Orange Beast is fine to take with it. Zero overlapping or competing pathways to worry about, so it will have zero affect, positive or negative.

 

[Mowglisml]

Orange Beast is fine to take with it. Zero overlapping or competing pathways to worry about, so it will have zero affect, positive or negative.

No need to argue. As posted above. Let’s just move on. Thanks for the input.

 

[Hyde]

Orange Beast is fine to take with it. Zero overlapping or competing pathways to worry about, so it will have zero affect, positive or negative.

No need to argue. As posted above. Let’s just move on. Thanks for the input.

He’s not arguing for the sake of it - just simply explaining that Orange Beat isn’t going to skew results negatively by anything possibly noticeable; there’s no interaction here.

Furthermore, if you peep the 5 sponsored Orange Beat logs running on this forum currently nobody has noticed any sides from the product - 5/5 people are reporting feeling basically the same, or better, day-to-day, so it’s safe to say this isn’t holding him back.

 

[Hyde]

Holding back wasn't the issue. The issue is you start taking BMP and the CL product and on the BMP log constantly state no change week on week. On the sponsored CL log you state product is improving recovery. I'm sure you probably don't mention on that log that you started BMP at pretty much the same time. At the end of the day it is what it is. 1 honesty point deducted and extra grain of salt added to the solution logs/reviews.

@The Solution is NOT logging Orange Beat for Controlled Labs. He won a bottle in a giveaway. The 5 loggers can easily be found on here if you wish to peruse their thoughts.

I also suggest you consider what you expect from a product log on a forum - do you honestly expect a closed scientific experiment?? If not a single ounce of water or calorie varies day to day the entire log, no single supplement manipulated in any fashion, how do you account for something like fluctuation in quality of sleep (easily much more important than any supplement)? What if the logger is going through a family death or a breakup they aren’t talking about? What if they’re flat out lying about what they’re doing?? What if they began intense meditation or mental training concurrently? A single log means very little. If 10 people take a product and 7 of them see similar effects or sides, NOW you have something useful to decide if it’s worth you trying it. You are looking for trends across multiple loggers.

 

[Ptlhains]

I agree that folks need to look at multiple logs before making a decision. And I find it easier to believe logs from regular Joe's and not folks who have lots of friends in the industry and influence.

 

[00A]

I agree that folks need to look at multiple logs before making a decision. And I find it easier to believe logs from regular Joe's and not folks who have lots of friends in the industry and influence.

Totally agree, Yeh all of a sudden you see 5 board members logging same product etc.. so who they will sell to? Lol? They advertise amonst each other...bit confusing, all these ppl in top form also guess makes good pics...i dont make long logs as pointless most products need a week or so to kick in and the pre ppl mostly getting placebo and say flavour good with underdosed products and chain goes around.. i spent lots of money on products out of intrest and never really bought same one more than twice

 

[scoooter]

Can we just let Bob report what's going on during his run and stop clogging up his LOG ?

 

[Admin]

Can we just let Bob report what's going on during his run and stop clogging up his LOG ?

This. Its getting old.

 

[Sparta12]

The Solution should really run natural anabolics for atleast 8 weeks to get a good gauge... I normally don't notice real benefits until weeks 4-6 (not this product, I only just started it)

I have tried quite a few different ones, 90% of them didn't really work... a couple did, but again it was once I commenced the second bottle I could really tell the difference.

But then again, if companies are saying you will notice benefits from the first bottle then I guess it gives us something to think about

 

[Wobmarvel]

The Solution should really run natural anabolics for atleast 8 weeks to get a good gauge... I normally don't notice real benefits until weeks 4-6 (not this product, I only just started it)

I have tried quite a few different ones, 90% of them didn't really work... a couple did, but again it was once I commenced the second bottle I could really tell the difference.

But then again, if companies are saying you will notice benefits from the first bottle then I guess it gives us something to think about

To be honest you probably need closer to a year. Gaining 5 lbs of muscle in a year would be a great result for someone already well developed. I mean true lean mass not just loading up on more carbs, salt, chucking in an anabolic and getting 10 lbs of nitrogen retention in a few weeks. An under developed person may gain closer to 10lbs.

So that's less than 1 lb per month. A natural anabolic may increase these results but only slightly. The best we can hope in a four week period is accurate feedback on effects on recovery, gut health, sense of well being, appetite etc. Which in fairness the solution does exceptionally well.

 

[LeanEngineer]

To be honest you probably need closer to a year. Gaining 5 lbs of muscle in a year would be a great result for someone already well developed.

Agreed. Someone well developed gaining 5 lbs of muscle in a year is good results!

 

[MrKleen73]

JEEZUS PEOPLE!!!! SHUT UP ABOUT HOW HE SHOULD RUN HIS LOGS!!!! You don't like it leave, this is a log about the product. The owner of the company if per4fectly fine with how he is running it... The OWNER!!!! He has everything vested and knew how this log was going to be run. He is not complaining but everyone else is. If you want to log it a certain way then you all get the log and do it your way. Clogging up his clinically clean log bitching that he is not fitting into your idea of how things should be is ridiculous. If you don't like his format don't follow ANY OF HIS LOGS!!!! They are always the same... ALWAYS! Going into one of his logs and complaining about how he logs it is just being intentionally disruptive to his log. I swear this happens in so many of his logs... This is how he runs them, always has been. Let him run it this way, if it isn't for you then don't follow it and follow one that someone is changing everything to get the most out of the product. Those are sensational and a lot of fun to watch, but this log gives you more of an idea of just how supplemental supplements actually are. The reality is and should always be percieved this way that changes to nutrition, and training cause far more drastic changes than any natty supplement can make. That is just the facts which seem to be lost on so many... Adjusting those completely masks the actual results or action of the supplement.

Will some perform even better with things tweaked, maybe... however to know if they are actually doing anything there has to be a control, his nutrition and training are the control... If that isn't sensational enough then just delete the subscription. If you value the placebo effect then I definitely recommend staying out of his logs... Placebo has an automatic 30% success rate, however if you start doubting then you will lose that... so make your decision, if you like and would prefer to be able to take advantage of placebo then I would probably avoid his logs all together which would result in those of us interested in seeing this done in a controlled manner with a nice clean log to read.

 

[Wobmarvel]

Shame there isn't a button he can press so people can't comment or have open discussion on any of his logs.

 

[MrKleen73]

Shame there isn't a button he can press so people can't comment or have open discussion on any of his logs.

Nothing wrong with discussions but beating a dead horse and derailing it completely with side conversation of how people wished he would log detracts from those of us who want to actually see the controlled experiment he does with the supplements. Their are literally thousands of other logs to peruse. Yet there is always a group of people damn near forming a digital picket line against how he is logging in his logs... The people sponsoring these logs know he logs this way and want to see the product tested that way, or they would NEVER choose him as a logger. SO why everyone else feels the need to come in and tell him how he should do things and complain when he doesn't is lost on me.

I am not even taking up for @The Solution, he does his own thing, but this is how he logs and he is one of the few that has the courage to log a product this way to try to see what the product brings to the table without changing all the variables. He takes a beating in almost every log he does over this. Some of us just want to see what the product has to offer on it's own. That isn't how many feel, but if that isn't how you feel then lets forget about Bob, who is blunt and can rub some people raw, so people tend to rail against him. Instead just choose to be courteous to those of us who actually want to see a log run this way without all the "you should be logging this this way" BS that clogs them up.

 

[LeanEngineer]

I think it's great that the solution runs his log this way. You need variation of loggers to see how the product is working. not changing any variables and seeing what the product does is one way to log/take this product.

 

[ironkill]

Don't question, don't inquire just sit back and watch like good little lemmings . This is an open, public forum. I see no character assassination just inquiries. Let the people speak

 

[00A]

The solution is a good guy..hustles and lifts at same time... just not sure about the socks in his posing pics..

 

[Hyde]

The solution is a good guy..hustles and lifts at same time... just not sure about the socks in his posing pics..

Bro that’s the secret. My wife always runs around the house in her undies & lil black nike socks and the dark foot contrast make her already sick calves look even gnarlier. You practically out angle yourself in them!