Best test booster?

grocker said:
Don't even sweat it, Chuck. AM is now full of PES/SNS fanboys and coop nut huggers. Now, if coop says a supplement doesn't work, then it must not work. If by any chance it does, then it must be placebo.

I like your no rep pimping and no rep sponsored log approach because I really don't believe any of these sponsored logs or reviews anymore. I like to go with the underdog so I will be trying DTH and JP8 Hardcore in the near future. Keep doing what your doing.
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AM is full of SNS fanboys because our products are awesome. Kind of like your 191 post count on AM.
 
I'm still waiting to see anyone post before and after bloodwork with any test booster they have used. Anyone? I'm seeing plenty of "this is the best test booster" or "it worked great" responses. Didn't anyone run bloodwork?
 
kenpoengineer said:
I'm still waiting to see anyone post before and after bloodwork with any test booster they have used. Anyone? I'm seeing plenty of "this is the best test booster" or "it worked great" responses. Didn't anyone run bloodwork?
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I think the best proven by bloodwork test booster is fixing improper diets, being active, and keeping clear of known substances that can lower it.
 
kenpoengineer said:
I'm still waiting to see anyone post before and after bloodwork with any test booster they have used. Anyone? I'm seeing plenty of "this is the best test booster" or "it worked great" responses. Didn't anyone run bloodwork?
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It worked because I got a zit on my back bro. Neff said
 
In other words are you saying the supps make no difference statistically speaking?

Kinda weird that folks dont provide bloodwork to back up their assertions. I would have thought this is the gold standard for whether products acting on hormonal pathways work or not. Or are logs, acne and zits more conclusive?��


Driven2lift said:
I think the best proven by bloodwork test booster is fixing improper diets, being active, and keeping clear of known substances that can lower it.
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ucheoma said:
In other words are you saying the supps make no difference statistically speaking?

Kinda weird that folks dont provide bloodwork to back up their assertions. I would have thought this is the gold standard for whether products acting on hormonal pathways work or not. Or are logs, acne and zits more conclusive??
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Would you believe it if we did? How would you know if my results were from the T booster instead of the 1000mg test shot I used at the same time? Because, you know, you cant lie on the internet
 
Same argument could similarly apply to anecdotal reports of logs, zits and acne. I for one still like to believe that there are impartial, unaffiliated civvies who genuinely and honestly report their experiences. Problem with logs is it's all subjective whereas genuine bloodwork has hard rational scientific aspects

Jiigzz said:
Would you believe it if we did? How would you know if my results were from the T booster instead of the 1000mg test shot I used at the same time? Because, you know, you cant lie on the internet
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Please explain. Is this because the supposition is tboosters have little or no appreciable impact on t-levels? I'm seeing increasing number of posts which assert tboosters only boost libido and mood and are not string enough to have any anabolic effects. However this takes us back to the original question. How do you verify in the first place whether or not a tbooster increases t and levels of increase?

Olestra said:
Most people don't do bloodwork before a t booster because it isn't necessary like it is with steroids
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I just mean that people taking t boosters aren't worried about permanent shutdown and other hormone deficiencies that can come from using steroids. Which require a blood test to verify.

There are plenty of ways to self-verify that a product is working without the hassle of a blood test. High libido, aggression, hair growth, muscle hardness are some of those. I admit that these signs are not 100% conclusive and do not tell the same tale that a blood test does, but for many people, these signs are exactly the effects they were looking for, so the difference is negligible.

The problem mostly lies in whether other people beleive you about the subjective effects you are experiencing. Most people are skeptical, and with good reason. That's why a lot of people say to find a t booster that works you should try it for yourself.
 
ucheoma said:
Please explain. Is this because the supposition is tboosters have little or no appreciable impact on t-levels? I'm seeing increasing number of posts which assert tboosters only boost libido and mood and are not string enough to have any anabolic effects. However this takes us back to the original question. How do you verify in the first place whether or not a tbooster increases t and levels of increase?
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Speaking for myself, I'm not going to spend an additional $100 on bloodwork for a supplement.
 
The inference I draw from your post and olestra's is that sup companies' claims re t-boosters are a tad overstated and most savvy bodybuilders are aware of this!! Plse correct me if my inference is wrong. Just trying to educate myself and not have too high expectations of what these supps can do

Olestra said:
Exactly.
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ucheoma said:
The inference I draw from your post and olestra's is that sup companies' claims re t-boosters are a tad overstated and most savvy bodybuilders are aware of this!! Plse correct me if my inference is wrong. Just trying to educate myself and not have too high expectations of what these supps can do
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I don't know why you would infer "this product doesn't work the way it is advertised" from the statement "most people don't get expensive and inconvenient laboratory testing done on their blood to confirm these products are working."

Not a logical inference.

Edit: that being said, there are companies out there that will try to tell you these products work like AAS in terms of sheer mass gains. This is obviously false. What you can expect from a good quality t booster is an increase in strength and hardness as well as sense of well being and higher libido. Those effects alone make good t booster products worth their salt in my opinion. Most companies that produce t boosters market their product as having these effects. Some will try to tell you you'll pack on a ton of mass, which is BS. But most will be honest with their claims.
 
ucheoma said:
Please explain. Is this because the supposition is tboosters have little or no appreciable impact on t-levels? I'm seeing increasing number of posts which assert tboosters only boost libido and mood and are not string enough to have any anabolic effects. However this takes us back to the original question. How do you verify in the first place whether or not a tbooster increases t and levels of increase?
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In many cases I believe this to be true. I ran a lot of blood tests when trying OTC test boosters years ago while chasing symptoms and as a precursor to starting TRT. I simply wanted to know. Most people will never do this because they are simply looking for a boost and it is quite frankly, a hassle and expensive.
 
Olestra said:
I just mean that people taking t boosters aren't worried about permanent shutdown and other hormone deficiencies that can come from using steroids. Which require a blood test to verify.

There are plenty of ways to self-verify that a product is working without the hassle of a blood test. High libido, aggression, hair growth, muscle hardness are some of those. I admit that these signs are not 100% conclusive and do not tell the same tale that a blood test does, but for many people, these signs are exactly the effects they were looking for, so the difference is negligible.

The problem mostly lies in whether other people beleive you about the subjective effects you are experiencing. Most people are skeptical, and with good reason. That's why a lot of people say to find a t booster that works you should try it for yourself.
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Good post man
 
Thanks for clarifying. Still unsure however if even the more limited expectation that t boosters should deliver an increase in strength and hardness is based on any hard data. Still looking for this but haven't seen anything conclusive in this regards. Kisaj's post crystallises my evolving thoughts on t-boosters. no tkncking these by any accounts as im a regular user put perhaps have overset my expectations of these and looking to adjust to a more realistic level


Olestra said:
I don't know why you would infer "this product doesn't work the way it is advertised" from the statement "most people don't get expensive and inconvenient laboratory testing done on their blood to confirm these products are working."

Not a logical inference.

Edit: that being said, there are companies out there that will try to tell you these products work like AAS in terms of sheer mass gains. This is obviously false. What you can expect from a good quality t booster is an increase in strength and hardness as well as sense of well being and higher libido. Those effects alone make good t booster products worth their salt in my opinion. Most companies that produce t boosters market their product as having these effects. Some will try to tell you you'll pack on a ton of mass, which is BS. But most will be honest with their claims.
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ucheoma said:
Thanks for clarifying. Still unsure however if even the more limited expectation that t boosters should deliver an increase in strength and hardness is based on any hard data. Still looking for this but haven't seen anything conclusive in this regards. Kisaj's post crystallises my evolving thoughts on t-boosters. no tkncking these by any accounts as im a regular user put perhaps have overset my expectations of these and looking to adjust to a more realistic level
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Keep in mind that it is possible to improve hormone levels to a degree with OTC, and that appreciable increases in mood, energy, and libido can all contribute to improvements in composition, strength, and well being. Total test is only a very small portion of the equation and is what is generally thought of when purchasing a test boosting product.
 
Well, the majority of quality t boosters contain an Aromatase inhibitor which reduces estrogen. This is a well-researched mechanism of increasing muscle hardness.

As for strength, there's not a ton of research. But it's out there. I'll try to find some for you when I get home. I remember one study which assessed an increase in strength when L dopa, a popular ingredient in t boosters, was given to older patients. Whether this was due to a dopamine (of which l dopa is a prodrug) increase stimulating the CNS, or an effect of increased test, or both, I imagine is anyone's guess.
 
Thanks. Your distinction of quality t boosters as including AIs by definition excludes the majority of t boosters including single product t-boosters eg DAA, bulbine, tribulus etc, etc. I was thinking more of traditional test boosters rather than AIs which can boost T (slightly) via the yje mechanism of estrogen reduction

Look forward to any studies you can find which show a direct effect of t-boosters on strength in humans

Olestra said:
Well, the majority of quality t boosters contain an Aromatase inhibitor which reduces estrogen. This is a well-researched mechanism of increasing muscle hardness.

As for strength, there's not a ton of research. But it's out there. I'll try to find some for you when I get home. I remember one study which assessed an increase in strength when L dopa, a popular ingredient in t boosters, was given to older patients. Whether this was due to a dopamine (of which l dopa is a prodrug) increase stimulating the CNS, or an effect of increased test, or both, I imagine is anyone's guess.
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My opinion on single-product T boosters: they need to be stacked with something. Usually an AI unless the product in question is an AI itself. Of those you mentioned, DAA and Tribulus are two such products. For men with chronically low T, these products might work well alone, but for those with normal T, the excess testosterone they produce will just convert to estrogen, which is why an AI is very beneficial.

Bulbine is different. I am not entirely familiar with the mechanism, but is my understanding that it is both an AI, and boosts test production, making it an ideal standalone compound. But beware, many bulbine products use a low quality extract which is ineffective. Prolensis is the trade name of the best extract available.

Here is a study indicating an increase in muscle nerve activity and bloodflow (excellent indicators of increased strength) following L-dopa dosage: Invalid Link Removed

I apologize that I could not find a study involving a measured force increase in muscle strength, but those indicators should at least tell you that a strength increase would be likely

Here is a study which found a significant increase in endurance of cyclists following l-dopa dosage: Invalid Link Removed

Here are two related studies on dioscin (the active ingredient in Tribulus and Fenugreek products) and GH release: Invalid Link Removed
Invalid Link Removed

There's a ton of anecdotal evidence from dopamine-deficient people indicating that tribulus and fenugreek work to increase dopamine levels. I couldn't find a study I liked which confirmed their ability to inhibit dopamine b-hydroxlase, but I think I may be able to locate one if I have more time. Theres not a ton of research yet because this is a relatively new discovery, and it's an herb so pharma does not stand to make a profit off it. But the proposed mechanism is that it inhibits the enzyme which breaks down dopamine, so it would make sense that dopamine levels are increased therefore stimulating muscle nerve activity and bloodflow, inducing strength increase, as well as stimulating the HPTA.

The reason why tribulus gets a bad rap is because a ton of trib products are crap. They contain only trace amounts of the dioscins you would want. A product with at least 20% protodioscin is my reccommendation.

For a synergistic effect, take L dopa along with a high quality fenugreek or tribulus product. This would work in a manner similar to how an aromatizing anabolic steroid must be taken with an AI to block estrogen conversion. But be careful. I once did this for too long and woke up one day feeling HIGH. I was FLYING. And my libido was driving me insane. Didn't take long for me to realize that I had screwed up my dopamine levels, but stopping supplementation and starting on Ashwagandha helped clear up the issues I was having pretty quickly.

So to sum it up, at least two types of testosterone-boosting compounds act on dopamine levels in the body. The dopamine itself seems likely to be the source of increased strength. Increased testosterone is probably only slightly responsible for the increased strength but MAYBE it works highly synergistically with the increased dopamine. Hard to tell. Brain chemistry as it relates to the HPTA is a complex puzzle.

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Olestra said:
For a synergistic effect, take L dopa along with a high quality fenugreek or tribulus product. But be careful. I once did this for too long and woke up one day feeling HIGH. I was FLYING. Didn't take long for me to realize that I had screwed up my dopamine levels, but some Ashwagandha helped clear up the issues I was having pretty quickly.
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Good thing Analyzed Supplements had their Quad Stack a while back with those ingredients
 
Well, I started off majoring in biochemistry in college. But I switched to major in philosophy and business because those are my other two passions and I could handle the workload of taking them both at the same time. And business was more practical for my life goals. I took a lot of research-based classes as electives throughout and am used to the language of scholarly articles.
 
Thanks. Very helpful. I shall look more closely into L-Dopa. I have taken fenugreek in the form of testofen but it did nothing for me. I know as I had before and after bloodwork. However I may consider a quality product containing mucuna pruriens which I believe contains L Dopa? Wait!! I have a bottle of Alphamax!! I'll run this after I finish my bottle of VIRON
 
How has Viron been treating you? It is one of my favorites and that has nothing to do with being a rep.
 
ucheoma said:
Thanks. Very helpful. I shall look more closely into L-Dopa. I have taken fenugreek in the form of testofen but it did nothing for me. I know as I had before and after bloodwork. However I may consider a quality product containing mucuna pruriens which I believe contains L Dopa? Wait!! I have a bottle of Alphamax!! I'll run this after I finish my bottle of VIRON
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Yep Alphamax would be a great choice! Full dose of L-DOPA and Divanill which is an awesome combo, full dose Aromatase Inhibitor with full dose 95% Forskolin, ofcourse Vitamin D and Zinc!! Pretty complete product!
 
Check out the tgb section, there is a thread for Alphamax for 29.99 using koi1214s code.

The F95 is worth almost that alone!
 
Adizzle1 said:
Yep Alphamax would be a great choice! Full dose of L-DOPA and Divanill which is an awesome combo, full dose Aromatase Inhibitor with full dose 95% Forskolin, ofcourse Vitamin D and Zinc!! Pretty complete product!
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I think that would be particularly good in PCT, when LH stimulation is crucial. L-dopa and Forskolin is a very effective combo for this purpose.

Edit: but of course, it would be great standalone as well.
 
Hard to say at the moment. Only been on it for 3 weeks. First 2 wks felt some sensation of increased heart rate, elevated temperature etc but difficult to ascribe to Viron. Plan to get some bloodwork if possible in wks 4 or 5. No baseline unfortunately. Try to get it on the NHS in UK so can't request too often


kisaj said:
How has Viron been treating you? It is one of my favorites and that has nothing to do with being a rep.
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my favorite two ingredients i look for in a test booster is ***odia and bulbine

daa if used in pct or in conjuction with one of the above mentioned ingredients
 
Fadogia. It looks like the board thought you were swearing :)

I agree, the research (mostly rat) says Anacyclus Pyrethrin, Bulbine (in the proper amount, too much is worse than none), and Fadogia. But they are all still minimally studied in humans.
 
DAA is one of the few which has good human studies. You know where you stand with DAA, more or less.

Not seen any human studies on Bulbine. The "347%' and AI properties based on a rat study carried out in Nigeria by Yakubu et al. Not seen that great promise translated into human effects even for the Prolesnsis brand. One company actually reformulated its product away from bulbine due to dosing issues. I think bulbine has had it's day due to uncertain risk/benefit profile, But open to any evidence to the contrary

The_Old_Guy said:
Fadogia. It looks like the board thought you were swearing :)

I agree, the research (mostly rat) says Anacyclus Pyrethrin, Bulbine (in the proper amount, too much is worse than none), and Fadogia. But they are all still minimally studied in humans.
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ucheoma said:
Hard to say at the moment. Only been on it for 3 weeks. First 2 wks felt some sensation of increased heart rate, elevated temperature etc but difficult to ascribe to Viron. Plan to get some bloodwork if possible in wks 4 or 5. No baseline unfortunately. Try to get it on the NHS in UK so can't request too often
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You are doing a 4/3 or 5/2 cycle, correct?
 
ucheoma said:
DAA is one of the few which has good human studies. You know where you stand with DAA, more or less.

Not seen any human studies on Bulbine. The "347%' and AI properties based on a rat study carried out in Nigeria by Yakubu et al. Not seen that great promise translated into human effects even for the Prolesnsis brand. One company actually reformulated its product away from bulbine due to dosing issues. I think bulbine has had it's day due to uncertain risk/benefit profile, But open to any evidence to the contrary
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the dosing of bulbine becomes difficult....i usually recommend sticking with the lower end of things...i've also seen someone posted documentation of a test showing an increase in himself over 320% and a decrease in estrogen by 25%ish, it was a few years ago so i don't remember off the top of my head the exact amounts
 
I HIGHLY doubt any OTC would ever increase test 320% no matter where you were to begin with. Hell, prescriptions sometimes don't do that.
 
ucheoma said:
DAA is one of the few which has good human studies. You know where you stand with DAA, more or less.
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DAA is also one of the supplements that also has probably an equal or more people with negative effects. I believe there are only some instances that it would be beneficial.
 
I believe you're referring to the estrogen sides, which are highlighted in the studies, or are there other sides aside from this?

kisaj said:
DAA is also one of the supplements that also has probably an equal or more people with negative effects. I believe there are only some instances that it would be beneficial.
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