Best addition to a good diet for cutting?

StarScream66

StarScream66

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
Again I like PS. There are other benefits. There does appear some benefit to stress as well, but that appears not cortisol related, in comparison to Ash it is still going to be more expensive, and there would be other routes to take (but I regularly take 300mg PS so this isn't anti-PS).



Pretty much this. I don't care if you like PS more than Ash, we all can have things we enjoy more than others, just no need to try and act like it has no research and come out with a strong statement AGAINST it. Just seems like some weird logic to me. It seems unfairly forgiving to one side and condemning 🤷‍♂️ to the other.
I'm not trying to say one is better than the other or sh!t talk ash :) They both are lacking multiple studies showing the benefits they claim. I'm trying to look at it from a purely scientific perspective. I follow the skeptical ideology of Carl Sagan and his book The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark. For a quick overview, here is his Baloney Detection Kit. I'm also a big fan of Quackwatch (although I think the author got too old and is no longer updating the site) as well as the book Muscles, Speed, and Lies: What the Sport Supplement Industry Does Not Want Athletes or Consumers to Know. It's my personal opinion that probably 98% of all supplements are bullsh!t, and the 2% that work are simply under looked because people are looking for the next best thing..
 
Resolve10

Resolve10

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • Best Answer
  • RockStar
I'm not trying to say one is better than the other or sh!t talk ash :) They both are lacking multiple studies showing the benefits they claim. I'm trying to look at it from a purely scientific perspective. I follow the skeptical ideology of Carl Sagan and his book The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark. For a quick overview, here is his Baloney Detection Kit. I'm also a big fan of Quackwatch (although I think the author got too old and is no longer updating the site) as well as the book Muscles, Speed, and Lies: What the Sport Supplement Industry Does Not Want Athletes or Consumers to Know. It's my personal opinion that probably 98% of all supplements are bullsh!t, and the 2% that work are simply under looked because people are looking for the next best thing..
Ok we agree on that. Just think its annoying you called one VERY lacking and are poking holes but ignore even more holes in the other ingredient.

We disagree and I see from your post in other areas that we just won't see eye to eye on these kinds of things, but that is fine it is always welcome to have different points of view.
 
StarScream66

StarScream66

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
Ok we agree on that. Just think its annoying you called one VERY lacking and are poking holes but ignore even more holes in the other ingredient.
I think that's a very fair criticism. PS, AFAIK, only has the one study showing it reduces cortisol. Honestly, I haven't looked to see if there were others.

We disagree and I see from your post in other areas that we just won't see eye to eye on these kinds of things, but that is fine it is always welcome to have different points of view.
I don't think we necessarily disagree. Absolutely use ash if you feel if it benefits you. But, like I mentioned above, you can always get a blood test and see if it is really lowering your cortisol levels or not. ;)
 
aaronuconn

aaronuconn

Well-known member
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
I'm not trying to poke holes in your studies, the first one looks very interesting, but it was paid for by the manufacturer of the supplement company who owns the patent for the product. So, that's one thing you have to take with a grain of salt.



If you Google Sensoril, you'll find other studies from the manufacturer claiming it cures bipolar, generalized anxiety disorder, "psychomotor performance", and other ailments. There are 2 big manufacturers of the Withanolide extract (ash), which is Natreon, which owns Sensoril and Sabsina, an Indian company that owns the patent to KSM66 and discovered ash originally. They sell a whole range of these "adaptogens", a term which I'm very skeptical of in general as it sort of means it can apply to anything and do anything. You can read the very short article on wikipedia regarding the terminology of adaptogens and why it's a problematic label for dietary supplements.

But back to ash, Sensoril uses a root and leaf extract of Withanolide whereas KSM-66 just uses the root extract. Generally, in "ayurvedic" medicine (another term and way of thinking I have a big problem with), ash just uses the root extract. Ayurveda is considered a form of pseudoscience like Chinese medicine, balancing your chi, Crystal Therapy, etc. So, the whole concept is based on an extremely flawed theory from the start. Now, that doesn't mean some of herbs and things that have come from the 'science' are all wrong, bad, or don't work. Ash seems to be an outlier in this area because it does appear to have some very positive benefits - but again, it's lacking serious studies on MANY of the claims being made for it.

But, let's get back to your studies. Both of them involve cycling, which isn't particularly applicable to bodybuilding, as cycling is an endurance race and has nothing to do with anabolism or hypertrophy of muscle tissue. So, the conclusion of one study is:
. That's all well and good, but again, it's not applicable to the sport we're interested in, unless you're coming here for advice on cycling or doing IronMan competitions or things like that.

The other study is much more compelling.



Now, the workout they did is a bit different than a typical bodybuilder workout. "Subjects were required to maintain their normal dietary habits and to follow a specific, progressive overload resistance-training program (4-day/week, upper body/lower body split)". We're never told what their normal dietary habits were, but they were doing a 4 day split of upper and lower body. Also consider the following "Using a placebo-controlled approach, 10 healthy participants were assigned to consume either a placebo or Ashwagandha (500 mg/day) for 10 days, and were assessed for changes in power, balance, and maximal oxygen consumption (VO2Max)."

So, we're only looking at 10 subjects over a 10 day period. That's a very small sample size and short study.

It's a very long read, and the results sound promising, but they would need to be replicated before you could consider this a valid reoccurrence. Again, not trying to poke holes, but that's just how we want to look at our supplements. Look at creatine for example. It's had literally hundreds of studies over the last 30 years all showing positive benefits with very few downsides.

Having said all that, if you want to take ash and you feel you get a positive benefit from taking it, I would encourage you to continue taking it, but look at the differences between the Sensoril product and the KSM-66 product. Right now, we mostly have anecdotal feedback of a comparison between these two products, and no head to head studies showing which is the best or most beneficial.

I can go on, but I think this post is long enough, so I'll leave it at that.
There’s a lot to be said about succinctly responding to posts. These long rants on what is Ayurveda, adpatogens, etc, distract from you stating false things. You can call Ayurveda a pseudoscience if you wish (which is wrong, as ingredients such as Ashwagandha have good ole regular science to back it) but many ingredients commonly used in Ayurveda have published studies backing their efficacy, sooooo yeah. Not quite pseudoscience. At all.

Honestly, you just keep pushing the goal posts back further and further. Many, many single ingredient supplements studies are done by the manufacturer. It doesn’t invalidate them. Who else is going to do them? Each OTC ingredient isn’t going to get the creatine treatment and have 100’s of studies. Sensori and KSM-66 have tons of studies done. More than most ingredients. This isn’t just some one off study. Furthermore, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence of efficacy. So taking published literature + individualized anecdote is about as good as you’re going to get in the supplement industry.

Point of my posts, you’ve made some “strong-and-wrong” comments. I’ve shown examples of why you’re wrong. I’m good to conclude this discussion at this point.
 
StarScream66

StarScream66

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
So, I heard back from NOW Foods and this is what they had to say:

ProductInfo <[email protected]>
9:08 AM (11 minutes ago)
to me
XXXXXXX,
We do not analyze for phosphatidylserine in our lecithin products, as it is largely removed during processing (which concentrates the phosphatidyl choline), so your expected estimate is likely on the high side.

Your best option is specifically processed and measured PS products such as these: https://www.nowfoods.com/search/solr?search_api_multi_fulltext=phosphatidyl

P.S. Be sure to view test results of competitors in the link above.

Jim G.
NOW Product Information Dept.
So, apparently this is the link he's talking about where NOW tested other brands for PS:

So I'm going to write back and ask why they remove the PS from the lecithin as that really makes no sense to me. But, that is apparently our answer for now. NOW Lecithin granules actually have PS removed from them, so it makes less sense to use than other brands.
 
StarScream66

StarScream66

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
There’s a lot to be said about succinctly responding to posts. These long rants on what is Ayurveda, adpatogens, etc, distract from you stating false things. You can call Ayurveda a pseudoscience if you wish (which is wrong, as ingredients such as Ashwagandha have good ole regular science to back it) but many ingredients commonly used in Ayurveda have published studies backing their efficacy, sooooo yeah. Not quite pseudoscience. At all.
So, Ayurevda is not just ashwagandha (ash). It literally encompasses thousands of different systems of beliefs, dietary practices, lifestyle practices, holistic medicine, and all sorts of other pseudoscientific thought. Just because ash came out of a quack medical system does not give it any more legitimacy than the fact that 7up used to put lithium in it to give people a "boost".

You're welcome to read the article I linked that discusses it in depth, or hey, if you're just too lazy to read it, it has a audio version too!

Honestly, you just keep pushing the goal posts back further and further. Many, many single ingredient supplements studies are done by the manufacturer.
You're exactly right. And we should look at those studies with the skepticism they deserve. As I mentioned, I believe only about 98% of supplements actually legitimately work. The majority of studied pushed by manufacturers have a predetermined outcome, are often published in journals that allow them to pay to be put in there and are not peer reviewed.

It doesn’t invalidate them. Who else is going to do them? Each OTC ingredient isn’t going to get the creatine treatment and have 100’s of studies.
We have to be patient and wait for legitimate and reputable journals look into the ingredients, and this often takes time. It takes time to learn that this is a popular ingredient that's being used, it takes time to organize, fund, and conduct the study, and so forth.

I'm honestly having trouble thinking of a single ingredient that had a study funded by the manufacturer that turned out to be a legitimate reputable supplement with multiple studies that backed up what it claimed to do.

Sensori and KSM-66 have tons of studies done. More than most ingredients. This isn’t just some one off study.
But, are there any that aren't funded by the manufacturer or the Indian government? Are there any that replicate the results? And most importantly, are there any that are done on weight trained athletes (because I mean, that's what we're talking about here, right? Not anti-anxiety benefits or anything else)?

Furthermore, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence of efficacy. So taking published literature + individualized anecdote is about as good as you’re going to get in the supplement industry.
If that's your idea of what you get from the supplement industry I would hate to see what supplements you're taking. Imagine if the pharmaceutical industry worked liked that - or the food industry, or any other industry that had potential ingredients that could not only rip off your hard earned money, but potentially damage your health. (Granted the pharm industry do fund their own studies, so I'll concede to you on that point).

Whey protein, creatine, beta alanine, and maybe citrulline malate, and what more do you need for gaining weight, adding muscle, increasing reps/lifts? (Although this is a fat loss thread, but just as an example). As I was just arguing with the people in this thread about this complete BS weight gaining product, there's a lot of cross over information here, if you care to take a look.

I concede I take some products that are potentially BS, but looking at my shelves, I don't see very many. Anecdotal evidence can be potentially very worthless. As I was arguing with this person in the thread above, he said I take supplement XYZ and I can tell it worked. Well, are you sure it wasn't your diet, your training, or any other supplements you were taking? I very rarely take anecdotal stories very seriously (again, as I mentioned above in my post regarding Carl Sagan, etc, etc).

Point of my posts, you’ve made some “strong-and-wrong” comments. I’ve shown examples of why you’re wrong. I’m good to conclude this discussion at this point.
Okay, well, then I guess we're done here.
 
StarScream66

StarScream66

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • First Up Vote
  • Established
So, I got my reply back from NOW Foods regarding the amount of PS in their lecithin granules. Here is what I asked:

Hi Jim,

I appreciate you taking the time to reply to my email. I saw your link where you tested other brands for PS content. But, I was just curious, why do you actually remove the phosphatidylserine from your lecithin products? That seems to be counterproductive.

I was having a discussion on a bodybuilding forum about the benefits of PS, like the ones in this study https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2503954/
"The effects of phosphatidylserine on endocrine response to moderate intensity exercise" and it shows a person would need around 600 mg a day of PS to get the full range of benefits. I was making the argument that lecithin would be the cheaper option for that, but since you remove the PS from your product, it would make more sense to buy from one of your competitors. Just as an example, your Phosphatidylserine 300 mg Extra Strength product is around $30 on Amazon and has 50 capsules. So, a person would be spending $1.20/day to get the correct dosage. But, if I person bought a 2lb jug of lecithin granules on Amazon for $25 (I've seen it as low as $10) and used the suggested serving size of 1 and 1/2 teaspoons they would be spending 19¢ per day.

So, as you can see, the value proposition is much less with the granules. But, since the PS level is so low, there's no point in using it for the intended purpose.

Anyway, just a suggestion to NOW maybe not remove a very valuable and important ingredient like Phosphatidylserine would make more sense for the consumer?

Just for reference, examine.com lists the composition of soy lecithin as follows:

1.2 Composition
Soy lecithin contains:

Phosphatidylserine (PS; phosphatidic acid bound to serine) at around 3% total phospholipids[4]

Phosphatidylcholine (PC; phosphatidic acid bound to choline) at up to 29-31.7% of phospholipids[5][4]

Phosphatidylethanolamine (PE; phosphatidic acid bound to ethanolamine) at up to 20.8-23% of phospholipids[5][4]

Phosphatidylinositol (PI; phosphatidic acid bound to inositol) up to 15-17.5% of phospholipids[5][4]

Phosphatidic acid (PA; 7-17.5% of total phospholipids[5][4])

Phytosterols (most as glycosides) including β-sitosterol, sitostanol, and sitosteryl β-d-glucoside[6]

Phytoglycolipids (14.8% total phospholipids[4])

With the lipid composition of the above phospholipids accounting for:

Linoleic acid at 64%[4]

Palmitic acid at 14%[4]

Oleic acid at 10%[4]

Linolenic acid at 7%[4]

Stearic acid at 4%[4]

Relative to other sources of lecithin, soy appears to be comparatively high in PI with 15% of the phospholipids as PI[5] and 287mg/100g food product (soy overall, not just oil) being PI;[7] another popular lecithin, derived from egg yolk, is much lower in PI.[8]
https://examine.com/supplements/soy-lecithin/research/#sources-and-composition\_composition

Even Wikipedia says soy lecithin contains 3% PS. As your company is probably one of the largest suppliers of lecithin granules, I would expect that it would meet those common amounts.
And here is the reply:

Thanks for the details and link provided. A few points of clarification are needed.

1. We obtain the various lecithin products from major producers and are not involved in actual production of these raw materials.

2. Most nutrient composition databases reference crude liquid lecithin (and the claimed 3% PS) and not the de-oiled dry granular (soy) or powdered (sunflower) forms. You will note the high % of fats in the info you provided which refers to the crude liquid lecithin.

3. Although we do sell liquid sunflower lecithin, it tends to be thick and gummy and coats the tongue and mouth for a while. Thus not a good option either from a PS standpoint.

4. Subsequent de-oiling processes tend to reduce the PS % even further, but unsure of a specific % since it isn’t commonly assessed. Most of the PS is sold separately and used by manufacturers in various formulations such as ours.

5. Although some PS studies such the one you presented, have shown benefit at 600mg doses, 300mg is typically sufficient for most people to feel a difference. Hopefully this about allows it to be within financial reach.

Jim G.

NOW Product Information Dept.
 

Toff

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
properly seasoned kale is good stuff.
HEres a tip, I LOVE kale - why? I boil the **** out of it.

Overcooked KAle is just like any other green leaf cabbage you just need to break it down a bit, then use the vitamin water froa gravy
 

Toff

Active member
Awards
1
  • Established
properly seasoned kale is good stuff.
HEres a tip, I LOVE kale - why? I boil the **** out of it.

Overcooked KAle is just like any other green leaf cabbage you just need to break it down a bit, then use the vitamin water froa gravy
 
Beau

Beau

Well-known member
Awards
4
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
  • Best Answer
I just bought a powdered product currently on sale at Costco that has 85 servings of KSM-66 (@ 600 mg) and 325 mg of Magnesium (carbonate, oxide and citrate). It was about $16, or slightly less that 0.19 per serving. I will start using it tonight.
 

Similar threads


Top