Best addition to a good diet for cutting?
- Thread starter Sss23
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jrock645
Well-known member
clen and t3 are nice additions toward the end of a cut, so you won't have to drop your calories to crazy low levels. I also like var a lot. Even 40-50mg per day gives a nice boost, keeps you strong when dieting and provides a nice recomp effect. Lots of options here, really.
UNX
Member
Synephrine sorry, exactly p-synephrine, you can find it in bitter orange extracts, there are plenty of suppliers like Swanson or Solaray. Regarding 11-KT, the one from Iron Legion is the most popular TD version, but I used the spray from Prototype nutrition. You need a lot more volume (8 ml daily), but one bottle contains 7.2 grams of 11-KT, more cost effective.
StarScream66
Well-known member
It sounds like to you need to do MUCH MUCH more research before you decide on what compounds to use to supplement your diet. You should not being playing with the big dogs like Clen and T3 yet before you do a boatload of research on how these compounds work, how they interact in your system, what dosage you need to take, and etc.
I recommend picking up a copy of Invalid Link Removed. It's expensive but well worth the money in all the knowledge you'll gain from the in depth info.
You could get away with an OTC fat burner like Invalid Link Removed along with some Invalid Link Removed to help increase cAMP.
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I hope that helps and if you need some links to do more research, let me know.
-SS
BloodManor
Well-known member
Cardio and ECA stack imo
Sss23
Member
Can you use Bronkaid for the E part?
StarScream66
Well-known member
I was just discussing this in another thread Invalid Link Removed
CroLifter
Well-known member
I have big time troubles keeping the fat off while off cycle/cruise. I always maintain off cycle/"trt", never bulk or cut as it always ends up a bad idea, i either get fat or sucked up and is one thing that always sets me back since i cant just start bulking on cycle.
I dont gain any fat bulking while on cycle or even a trt dosed cruise but because i get so fluffy while off (and worst of all i gain this disgusting baby fat in my face) it prevents me from looking as sharp as i would like to once i get some gear time under the belt (say ~4-5 weeks).
So i decided that this "off season" (meaning off roids, from now up until spring) i am going to look into cortisol blocking products. Already using ashwagandha but it doesnt seem to help a whole lot.
UNX
Member
8 ml daily, that's 240 mg.
CroLifter
Well-known member
Useless by itself, dries out your joints, lowers igf 1 and the only thing it cuts is your hdl.
Lack of anabolic hormones is what causes such fat gain. Same as when you cut natty, you get sucked the f up, lose all types of muscle.
thebigt
Legend
INVICTUS was the 1st iron legion or iconic formulations product i used...this was long before i became a rep.
i can't do links so i just tagged you in my old IRON LEGION INVICTUS log.. @CroLifter
thebigt
Legend
properly seasoned kale is good stuff.
Hyde
Legend
^Underrated comment
Take 2-3x a day before fasted cardio or meals eaten with a GDA:
Yohimbine (fasted ideally) 2.5mg
Caffeine 100mg
EGCG 50mg
Synephrine 30mg
Pseudoephedrine HCL 30mg
KSM66 500mg
I’ve used this successfully for about a month to help shed a little fat based on Beast Fitness Radio podcast. You could also use Bronkaid in lieu of Sudafed if you want more kick. I like the Sudafed because it’s so weak at that dosage. I prefer Bronkaid for heavy lifting because it’s more of a rush.
The KSM is to help curb the stress/cortisol of the dieting & stims and really smooths our the experience.
StarScream66
Well-known member
Ashwagandha is sort of one of those Indian compounds that they think do a lot, but really it's not very effective for what you're trying to use it for. It's seems to have some benefits, but the studies are very lacking and most of it has to do with anxiety reduction.
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I would recommend Invalid Link Removed instead of ashwagandha for cortisol reduction. It actually has some studies to back it up.
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Invalid Link Removed is also jam packed with phosphatidylserine, inositol, choline, phosphatidylcholine, and tons of other good stuff. You can add a couple tablespoons to your shakes and you'll be getting it in a cheaper form.
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Hyde
Legend
Phosphatidylserine is dope. Used it while peaking for a recent powerlifting meet lightly, and using it more so now the last 5 weeks in PCT. Definitely seems to be helping me keep more strength this go around.
thebigt
Legend
thebigt
Legend
endo amp has been a staple for going on more than a year... my family even gets it for me for christmas/birthday...lucky for me my birthday is coming up real soon
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delsolrob
Board Sponsor
Believe I answered this question for him through the fb page - but for sake of clarity.
XI-KT is 85mg/ml x 30ml
VII-KT is 100mg/ml x 30ml
aaronuconn
Well-known member
Wut? Ashwagandha is one the most comprehensively studied OTC supplements out there. For a variety of purposes. Yes, anxiety reduction is one, but literature supports LBM accrual, weight loss, memory/cognition, sleep quality, etc.
Bigwyatt
Member
Yupp that was me lol... Since I have you hear, I'll ask you this. I'm 6'5 about 270lbs and gyms have literally just opened in my state yesterday so I gotta be like 20% bf now, yuck! I'm on test still about 350mgs a week and would like to stack both the xii and vii... would it be too much to be doing 2.5/3 ml of each per day? I need to get back to my 12% bf as fast as possible.
aaronuconn
Well-known member
Furthermore, phosphatidylserine is studied for cortisol reduction in the 600-800mg range (IIRC), which becomes cost prohibitive. I think that link you provided would provide you with ~5 days at 600mg for ~$20. Meanwhile, KSM-66 at 600mg daily can be found for ~$6/month.
thebigt
Legend
endo amp!!!
delsolrob
Board Sponsor
we call this the 7/11 stack, and it's quite effective! BTW: some great deals on these with the Labor Day promo
aaronuconn
Well-known member
My main point of contention was with the person who said Ashwagandha studies were lacking. Which is laughable. Not only are there studies showing cortisol reduction, but also LBM improvements.
Endo Amp has an outstanding profile. No debate at all.
Hyde
Legend
Endo Amp is the exact product I have been using. I really believe it has made a big difference in power. It’s the only new variable this PCT go-around.
StarScream66
Well-known member
I suggest you read the examine article on ashwagandha. The studies are VERY lacking and there really have been very few on it. Not sure where you're getting your info from.
As for the price of PS, that's why suggested lecithin as an alternative. It's high in PS and much cheaper.
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StarScream66
Well-known member
@Resolve10 I'm going to have to go through the studies and read your replies and look at the studies on ashwaganda to gvie you a good reply. But, I'm right in the middle of trying to fix my Xbox with online tech support, so I'll have to get back to you later. But, if I forget and don't come back, send me a PM and I'll get back to it.
️ 
Have a toilet on standby!
Iwilleattuna
Well-known member
gw501516 + Injectable l carnitine , if not injectable , run a high dose orally , around 3 grams + arimistane 75-100mg+ Baet aka invictus or apex alchemy b aet. Other additions would be berberine and cinnamon for better insulin sensitivity
6oxo is also very good, but I wouldn't run it with arimistane. Apex alchemy carries this, as well.
6oxo is also very good, but I wouldn't run it with arimistane. Apex alchemy carries this, as well.
StarScream66
Well-known member
So, study 1 you linked seemed to indicate PS had a positive benefit on the outcome of the athletes mentioned, even though it was small sample size with a short duration. Study 2 also showed a positive outcome, as did study 3. Now I will say that the dosages used in all those studies were high.
So, I looked through the studies on PS at examine.com and they showed there was no benefit or cortisol with soy based PS, only PS derived from bovine cortex. However, PS supplements and drugs (yes, apparently PS is manufactured as a drug for Alzheimer's disease, ADHD and other uses.)
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However, soy or sunflower lecithin appears to have a pretty high dose of PS in it at around 500mg-2g.
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Just as a side note, lecithin also contains Phosphatidic acid which has been shown to increase muscle mass in some studies (but again, at pretty high doses).
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Now, I'm bad at math so I can't calculate how much 3% of PS would be in 2g of lecithin. Maybe a tool like Invalid Link Removed would be useful in figuring that out. Nowhere could I find how many mg exactly of PS is in lecithin, but the standard number I got was always just 3%.
So, I actually emailed NOW Foods and asked them how many mg of Phosphatidylserine is contained in their Soy Lecithin and Sunflower Lecithin granules. I'll report back when I get an answer.
So, now on to Ashwagandha which I'm just going to abbreviate as Ash for the purposes of brevity. I believe ash is a good supplement and has a lot of positive benefits, including cortisol reduction in some cases. So, taking something like KSM66 along with a high dose of PS would probably be beneficial in reducing your cortisol levels. Incidentally, Health Tests Direct offers a cortisol test so you can actually test yourself and see how your levels are.
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Ash seems to reduce cortisol in people with high stress levels and those are the only tests that have been done with it. No studies have been done to look at cortisol reduction in ash in relation to exercise. But, most of us are probably pretty stressed due to the situation in the US with all the civil unrest and a global pandemic going on, so it still could probably be beneficial in that regards.
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The studies on ash for exercise are also very lacking, with studies generally only using untrained or sedentary individuals.
So, although it looks promising, the studies just aren't there to claim ash can reduce cortisol from exercise or improve exercise performance. That's not to say it doesn't have other benefits, but all I'm saying is we need more research before we can say for certain it's helping.
My only personal experience with ash was using an ash liquid extract in ethanol and KSM66. I was looking for anxiety reduction and anxiolytic effects and I experienced neither with either supplement.
CroLifter
Well-known member
Good stuff. Alongside some mashed potatoes and grilled chicken breast, plus some orange or lemon juice. How could you ask for more?
In fact mashed potatoes and grilled chicken breast for me goes well with any green veggie. Kale, cabbage, brussel sprouts...
Wait this is a cutting thread right?
aaronuconn
Well-known member
So, no, stating Studies done relating to exercise are lacking is not true.
Ashwagandha for gym performance in active men between ~20-34 years old.
Invalid Link Removed: “the S500 group experienced statistically significant improvements in average squat power, peak bench press power, 7.5 km time trial performance, and perceived recovery scores.”
Ashwagandha on cardiorespiratory endurance in elite Indian cyclists
Invalid Link Removed: “There was significant improvement in the experimental group in all parameters, whereas the placebo group did not show any change with respect to their baseline parameters. There was significant improvement in the experimental group in all parameters, namely, VO2 max (t = 5.356; P < 0.001), METS (t = 4.483; P < 0.001), and time for exhaustion on treadmill (t = 4.813; P < 0.001) in comparison to the placebo group which did not show any change with respect to their baseline parameters.”
i’ll re-look at the rest of your message later, but I think it’s important to understand the mechanism of action for adaptogens.
StarScream66
Well-known member
I'm not trying to poke holes in your studies, the first one looks very interesting, but it was paid for by the manufacturer of the supplement company who owns the patent for the product. So, that's one thing you have to take with a grain of salt.
If you Google Sensoril, you'll find other studies from the manufacturer claiming it cures bipolar, generalized anxiety disorder, "psychomotor performance", and other ailments. There are 2 big manufacturers of the Withanolide extract (ash), which is Natreon, which owns Sensoril and Sabsina, an Indian company that owns the patent to KSM66 and discovered ash originally. They sell a whole range of these "adaptogens", a term which I'm very skeptical of in general as it sort of means it can apply to anything and do anything. You can read the very short article on Invalid Link Removed regarding the terminology of adaptogens and why it's a problematic label for dietary supplements.
But back to ash, Sensoril uses a root and leaf extract of Withanolide whereas KSM-66 just uses the root extract. Generally, in "ayurvedic" medicine (another term and way of thinking I have a big problem with), ash just uses the root extract. Ayurveda is considered a form of Invalid Link Removed like Chinese medicine, balancing your chi, Crystal Therapy, etc. So, the whole concept is based on an extremely flawed theory from the start. Now, that doesn't mean some of herbs and things that have come from the 'science' are all wrong, bad, or don't work. Ash seems to be an outlier in this area because it does appear to have some very positive benefits - but again, it's lacking serious studies on MANY of the claims being made for it.
But, let's get back to your studies. Both of them involve cycling, which isn't particularly applicable to bodybuilding, as cycling is an endurance race and has nothing to do with anabolism or hypertrophy of muscle tissue. So, the conclusion of one study is:
. That's all well and good, but again, it's not applicable to the sport we're interested in, unless you're coming here for advice on cycling or doing IronMan competitions or things like that.
The other study is much more compelling.
Now, the workout they did is a bit different than a typical bodybuilder workout. "Subjects were required to maintain their normal dietary habits and to follow a specific, progressive overload resistance-training program (4-day/week, upper body/lower body split)". We're never told what their normal dietary habits were, but they were doing a 4 day split of upper and lower body. Also consider the following "Using a placebo-controlled approach, 10 healthy participants were assigned to consume either a placebo or Ashwagandha (500 mg/day) for 10 days, and were assessed for changes in power, balance, and maximal oxygen consumption (VO2Max)."
So, we're only looking at 10 subjects over a 10 day period. That's a very small sample size and short study.
It's a very long read, and the results sound promising, but they would need to be replicated before you could consider this a valid reoccurrence. Again, not trying to poke holes, but that's just how we want to look at our supplements. Look at creatine for example. It's had literally hundreds of studies over the last 30 years all showing positive benefits with very few downsides.
Having said all that, if you want to take ash and you feel you get a positive benefit from taking it, I would encourage you to continue taking it, but look at the differences between the Sensoril product and the KSM-66 product. Right now, we mostly have anecdotal feedback of a comparison between these two products, and no head to head studies showing which is the best or most beneficial.
I can go on, but I think this post is long enough, so I'll leave it at that.
StarScream66
Well-known member
Again I like PS. There are other benefits. There does appear some benefit to stress as well, but that appears not cortisol related, in comparison to Ash it is still going to be more expensive, and there would be other routes to take (but I regularly take 300mg PS so this isn't anti-PS).
Pretty much this. I don't care if you like PS more than Ash, we all can have things we enjoy more than others, just no need to try and act like it has no research and come out with a strong statement AGAINST it. Just seems like some weird logic to me. It seems unfairly forgiving to one side and condemningto the other.
I'm not trying to say one is better than the other or sh!t talk ash
They both are lacking multiple studies showing the benefits they claim. I'm trying to look at it from a purely scientific perspective. I follow the skeptical ideology of Carl Sagan and his book Invalid Link Removed. For a quick overview, here is his Invalid Link Removed. I'm also a big fan of Quackwatch (although I think the author got too old and is no longer updating the site) as well as the book Invalid Link Removed. It's my personal opinion that probably 98% of all supplements are bullsh!t, and the 2% that work are simply under looked because people are looking for the next best thing..
StarScream66
Well-known member
I think that's a very fair criticism. PS, AFAIK, only has the one study showing it reduces cortisol. Honestly, I haven't looked to see if there were others.
I don't think we necessarily disagree. Absolutely use ash if you feel if it benefits you. But, like I mentioned above, you can always get a blood test and see if it is really lowering your cortisol levels or not.
aaronuconn
Well-known member
There’s a lot to be said about succinctly responding to posts. These long rants on what is Ayurveda, adpatogens, etc, distract from you stating false things. You can call Ayurveda a pseudoscience if you wish (which is wrong, as ingredients such as Ashwagandha have good ole regular science to back it) but many ingredients commonly used in Ayurveda have published studies backing their efficacy, sooooo yeah. Not quite pseudoscience. At all.
Honestly, you just keep pushing the goal posts back further and further. Many, many single ingredient supplements studies are done by the manufacturer. It doesn’t invalidate them. Who else is going to do them? Each OTC ingredient isn’t going to get the creatine treatment and have 100’s of studies. Sensori and KSM-66 have tons of studies done. More than most ingredients. This isn’t just some one off study. Furthermore, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence of efficacy. So taking published literature + individualized anecdote is about as good as you’re going to get in the supplement industry.
Point of my posts, you’ve made some “strong-and-wrong” comments. I’ve shown examples of why you’re wrong. I’m good to conclude this discussion at this point.
StarScream66
Well-known member
So, I heard back from NOW Foods and this is what they had to say:
So, apparently this is the link he's talking about where NOW tested other brands for PS:
Invalid Link Removed
So I'm going to write back and ask why they remove the PS from the lecithin as that really makes no sense to me. But, that is apparently our answer for now. NOW Lecithin granules actually have PS removed from them, so it makes less sense to use than other brands.
So, apparently this is the link he's talking about where NOW tested other brands for PS:
Invalid Link Removed
So I'm going to write back and ask why they remove the PS from the lecithin as that really makes no sense to me. But, that is apparently our answer for now. NOW Lecithin granules actually have PS removed from them, so it makes less sense to use than other brands.
StarScream66
Well-known member
So, Ayurevda is not just ashwagandha (ash). It literally encompasses thousands of different systems of beliefs, dietary practices, lifestyle practices, holistic medicine, and all sorts of other pseudoscientific thought. Just because ash came out of a quack medical system does not give it any more legitimacy than the fact that 7up used to put lithium in it to give people a "boost".
You're welcome to read the article I linked that discusses it in depth, or hey, if you're just too lazy to read it, it has a audio version too!
You're exactly right. And we should look at those studies with the skepticism they deserve. As I mentioned, I believe only about 98% of supplements actually legitimately work. The majority of studied pushed by manufacturers have a predetermined outcome, are often published in journals that allow them to pay to be put in there and are not peer reviewed.
We have to be patient and wait for legitimate and reputable journals look into the ingredients, and this often takes time. It takes time to learn that this is a popular ingredient that's being used, it takes time to organize, fund, and conduct the study, and so forth.
I'm honestly having trouble thinking of a single ingredient that had a study funded by the manufacturer that turned out to be a legitimate reputable supplement with multiple studies that backed up what it claimed to do.
But, are there any that aren't funded by the manufacturer or the Indian government? Are there any that replicate the results? And most importantly, are there any that are done on weight trained athletes (because I mean, that's what we're talking about here, right? Not anti-anxiety benefits or anything else)?
If that's your idea of what you get from the supplement industry I would hate to see what supplements you're taking. Imagine if the pharmaceutical industry worked liked that - or the food industry, or any other industry that had potential ingredients that could not only rip off your hard earned money, but potentially damage your health. (Granted the pharm industry do fund their own studies, so I'll concede to you on that point).
Whey protein, creatine, beta alanine, and maybe citrulline malate, and what more do you need for gaining weight, adding muscle, increasing reps/lifts? (Although this is a fat loss thread, but just as an example). As I was just arguing with the people in this thread about this complete BS weight gaining product, there's a lot of cross over information here, if you care to take a look.
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I concede I take some products that are potentially BS, but looking at my shelves, I don't see very many. Anecdotal evidence can be potentially very worthless. As I was arguing with this person in the thread above, he said I take supplement XYZ and I can tell it worked. Well, are you sure it wasn't your diet, your training, or any other supplements you were taking? I very rarely take anecdotal stories very seriously (again, as I mentioned above in my post regarding Carl Sagan, etc, etc).
Okay, well, then I guess we're done here.