Best addition to a good diet for cutting?

Sss23

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What would you add to really accelerate fat/weight loss in general? Obviously a good diet is key but what else? Clen? T3? Heard some people mention Cardarine? Or Albuterol? Any suggestions appreciated! Not sure if something hormonal like anavar is better
 
thebigt

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iron legion invictus is a top notch cortisone reducer....one 'side effect' is improved immune system, pretty nice side effect-eh?

use code THEBIGT to save 25% at ironlegion.com
 
Whisky

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My personal favourite is clen, t3 near the end of the cut and tesamorelin (or any gh peptide - or hgh itself)
 

jrock645

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clen and t3 are nice additions toward the end of a cut, so you won't have to drop your calories to crazy low levels. I also like var a lot. Even 40-50mg per day gives a nice boost, keeps you strong when dieting and provides a nice recomp effect. Lots of options here, really.
 
Nac

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Anavar is the best single compound option in my experience, but personally I wouldnt run it if I wasnt also using test. T3 is also potentially risky without an anabolic preventing unwanted muscle catabolism.
 

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If you cannot stand harsh stimulants like clen or yohimbine, sinephrine with caffeine work well. 11-KT was very effective for me removing abdominal fat, but I didn't run it standalone.
 

Sss23

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If you cannot stand harsh stimulants like clen or yohimbine, sinephrine with caffeine work well. 11-KT was very effective for me removing abdominal fat, but I didn't run it standalone.
What is sinephrine? Do you have a brand that you recommend for sinephrine/11-kt?
 

UNX

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What is sinephrine? Do you have a brand that you recommend for sinephrine/11-kt?
Synephrine sorry, exactly p-synephrine, you can find it in bitter orange extracts, there are plenty of suppliers like Swanson or Solaray. Regarding 11-KT, the one from Iron Legion is the most popular TD version, but I used the spray from Prototype nutrition. You need a lot more volume (8 ml daily), but one bottle contains 7.2 grams of 11-KT, more cost effective.
 
thebigt

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invictus!!!!
 
StarScream66

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What would you add to really accelerate fat/weight loss in general? Obviously a good diet is key but what else? Clen? T3? Heard some people mention Cardarine? Or Albuterol? Any suggestions appreciated! Not sure if something hormonal like anavar is better
It sounds like to you need to do MUCH MUCH more research before you decide on what compounds to use to supplement your diet. You should not being playing with the big dogs like Clen and T3 yet before you do a boatload of research on how these compounds work, how they interact in your system, what dosage you need to take, and etc.

I recommend picking up a copy of Anabolics 11th Edition by William Llewellyn. It's expensive but well worth the money in all the knowledge you'll gain from the in depth info.

You could get away with an OTC fat burner like Hi Tech Lipodrene Elite along with some Forskolin to help increase cAMP.

Proprietary Blend with Thermo-Rx and Extend-Rx: 473mg

Erythroxylum Coca Extract (leaves), Senegalia Berlandieri Extract (leaves) [Yeilding 170mg Phenylethylamine Alkaloids Including: Methylsynephrine, N-Methyl-B-Phenylethylamine, N, N-Dimethyl Phenylethylamine, Phenylethylamine], 2-Aminoisoheptane HCI, Citrus Aurantium Extract (25mg Synephrine Alkaloids), Green Tea Extract (leaves), Theobromine, Caralluma Extract (cactus), Naringen (fruit), 6,7 Dihydroxybergamottin (fruit), 5-Methoxytryptamine HCl, L-5-Hydroxytryptophan, Yohimbe Extract (bark).

Caffeine (Anhydrous): 150mg
Forskolin increases cellular levels of a molecule called cyclic adenosine monophosphate (cAMP). Elevated cAMP levels are associated with increased rates of fat loss, and can improve the effects of other fat burning compounds.

I hope that helps and if you need some links to do more research, let me know.
-SS
 
joe123!

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I know your looking for sups, but on a cut I eat the crap out of cauliflower rice. An entire bag is 90 calories and can fill you up. I normally add a bunch to it.
 

Sss23

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Synephrine sorry, exactly p-synephrine, you can find it in bitter orange extracts, there are plenty of suppliers like Swanson or Solaray. Regarding 11-KT, the one from Iron Legion is the most popular TD version, but I used the spray from Prototype nutrition. You need a lot more volume (8 ml daily), but one bottle contains 7.2 grams of 11-KT, more cost effective.
What were you dosing the 11-KT?
 

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iron legion invictus is a top notch cortisone reducer....one 'side effect' is improved immune system, pretty nice side effect-eh?

use code THEBIGT to save 25% at ironlegion.com
I have big time troubles keeping the fat off while off cycle/cruise. I always maintain off cycle/"trt", never bulk or cut as it always ends up a bad idea, i either get fat or sucked up and is one thing that always sets me back since i cant just start bulking on cycle.

I dont gain any fat bulking while on cycle or even a trt dosed cruise but because i get so fluffy while off (and worst of all i gain this disgusting baby fat in my face) it prevents me from looking as sharp as i would like to once i get some gear time under the belt (say ~4-5 weeks).

So i decided that this "off season" (meaning off roids, from now up until spring) i am going to look into cortisol blocking products. Already using ashwagandha but it doesnt seem to help a whole lot.
 

CroLifter

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Would an AI help cut fat?
Useless by itself, dries out your joints, lowers igf 1 and the only thing it cuts is your hdl.

Lack of anabolic hormones is what causes such fat gain. Same as when you cut natty, you get sucked the f up, lose all types of muscle.
 
thebigt

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I have big time troubles keeping the fat off while off cycle/cruise. I always maintain off cycle/"trt", never bulk or cut as it always ends up a bad idea, i either get fat or sucked up and is one thing that always sets me back since i cant just start bulking on cycle.

I dont gain any fat bulking while on cycle or even a trt dosed cruise but because i get so fluffy while off (and worst of all i gain this disgusting baby fat in my face) it prevents me from looking as sharp as i would like to once i get some gear time under the belt (say ~4-5 weeks).

So i decided that this "off season" (meaning off roids, from now up until spring) i am going to look into cortisol blocking products. Already using ashwagandha but it doesnt seem to help a whole lot.
INVICTUS was the 1st iron legion or iconic formulations product i used...this was long before i became a rep.

i can't do links so i just tagged you in my old IRON LEGION INVICTUS log.. @CroLifter
 
Renew1

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Kale.

Kale ALWAYS makes me want to cut somebody.
 
Hyde

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Kale.

Kale ALWAYS makes me want to cut somebody.
^Underrated comment

Take 2-3x a day before fasted cardio or meals eaten with a GDA:

Yohimbine (fasted ideally) 2.5mg
Caffeine 100mg
EGCG 50mg
Synephrine 30mg
Pseudoephedrine HCL 30mg
KSM66 500mg

I’ve used this successfully for about a month to help shed a little fat based on Beast Fitness Radio podcast. You could also use Bronkaid in lieu of Sudafed if you want more kick. I like the Sudafed because it’s so weak at that dosage. I prefer Bronkaid for heavy lifting because it’s more of a rush.

The KSM is to help curb the stress/cortisol of the dieting & stims and really smooths our the experience.
 
StarScream66

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So i decided that this "off season" (meaning off roids, from now up until spring) i am going to look into cortisol blocking products. Already using ashwagandha but it doesnt seem to help a whole lot.
Ashwagandha is sort of one of those Indian compounds that they think do a lot, but really it's not very effective for what you're trying to use it for. It's seems to have some benefits, but the studies are very lacking and most of it has to do with anxiety reduction.


I would recommend phosphatidylserine instead of ashwagandha for cortisol reduction. It actually has some studies to back it up.


The findings suggest that PS is an effective supplement for combating exercise-induced stress and preventing the physiological deterioration that can accompany too much exercise. PS supplementation promotes a desired hormonal status for athletes by blunting increases in cortisol levels.
Lecithin is also jam packed with phosphatidylserine, inositol, choline, phosphatidylcholine, and tons of other good stuff. You can add a couple tablespoons to your shakes and you'll be getting it in a cheaper form.
 
Hyde

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Ashwagandha is sort of one of those Indian compounds that they think do a lot, but really it's not very effective for what you're trying to use it for. It's seems to have some benefits, but the studies are very lacking and most of it has to do with anxiety reduction.


I would recommend phosphatidylserine instead of ashwagandha for cortisol reduction. It actually has some studies to back it up.




Lecithin is also jam packed with phosphatidylserine, inositol, choline, phosphatidylcholine, and tons of other good stuff. You can add a couple tablespoons to your shakes and you'll be getting it in a cheaper form.
Phosphatidylserine is dope. Used it while peaking for a recent powerlifting meet lightly, and using it more so now the last 5 weeks in PCT. Definitely seems to be helping me keep more strength this go around.
 

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does anyone know the actual mg dosage for Iron Legion's vii and xi? Also, how many ml in a bottle?
 
thebigt

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Phosphatidylserine is dope. Used it while peaking for a recent powerlifting meet lightly, and using it more so now the last 5 weeks in PCT. Definitely seems to be helping me keep more strength this go around.
endo amp has been a staple for going on more than a year... my family even gets it for me for christmas/birthday...lucky for me my birthday is coming up real soon:)
 
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delsolrob

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does anyone know the actual mg dosage for Iron Legion's vii and xi? Also, how many ml in a bottle?
Believe I answered this question for him through the fb page - but for sake of clarity.

XI-KT is 85mg/ml x 30ml
VII-KT is 100mg/ml x 30ml
 
aaronuconn

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Ashwagandha is sort of one of those Indian compounds that they think do a lot, but really it's not very effective for what you're trying to use it for. It's seems to have some benefits, but the studies are very lacking and most of it has to do with anxiety reduction.


I would recommend phosphatidylserine instead of ashwagandha for cortisol reduction. It actually has some studies to back it up.




Lecithin is also jam packed with phosphatidylserine, inositol, choline, phosphatidylcholine, and tons of other good stuff. You can add a couple tablespoons to your shakes and you'll be getting it in a cheaper form.
Wut? Ashwagandha is one the most comprehensively studied OTC supplements out there. For a variety of purposes. Yes, anxiety reduction is one, but literature supports LBM accrual, weight loss, memory/cognition, sleep quality, etc.
 

Bigwyatt

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Believe I answered this question for him through the fb page - but for sake of clarity.

XI-KT is 85mg/ml x 30ml
VII-KT is 100mg/ml x 30ml
Yupp that was me lol... Since I have you hear, I'll ask you this. I'm 6'5 about 270lbs and gyms have literally just opened in my state yesterday so I gotta be like 20% bf now, yuck! I'm on test still about 350mgs a week and would like to stack both the xii and vii... would it be too much to be doing 2.5/3 ml of each per day? I need to get back to my 12% bf as fast as possible.
 
aaronuconn

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Furthermore, phosphatidylserine is studied for cortisol reduction in the 600-800mg range (IIRC), which becomes cost prohibitive. I think that link you provided would provide you with ~5 days at 600mg for ~$20. Meanwhile, KSM-66 at 600mg daily can be found for ~$6/month.
 
thebigt

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Furthermore, phosphatidylserine is studied for cortisol reduction in the 600-800mg range (IIRC), which becomes cost prohibitive. I think that link you provided would provide you with ~5 days at 600mg for ~$20. Meanwhile, KSM-66 at 600mg daily can be found for ~$6/month.
endo amp!!!
 
delsolrob

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Yupp that was me lol... Since I have you hear, I'll ask you this. I'm 6'5 about 270lbs and gyms have literally just opened in my state yesterday so I gotta be like 20% bf now, yuck! I'm on test still about 350mgs a week and would like to stack both the xii and vii... would it be too much to be doing 2.5/3 ml of each per day? I need to get back to my 12% bf as fast as possible.
we call this the 7/11 stack, and it's quite effective! BTW: some great deals on these with the Labor Day promo 👍
 
delsolrob

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Furthermore, phosphatidylserine is studied for cortisol reduction in the 600-800mg range (IIRC), which becomes cost prohibitive. I think that link you provided would provide you with ~5 days at 600mg for ~$20. Meanwhile, KSM-66 at 600mg daily can be found for ~$6/month.
Like @thebigt said, endoamp ftw! Also, the other benefits of endoamp besides the cortisol reduction are profound. additionally, not everyone responds well to Ashwagandha
 
aaronuconn

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Like @thebigt said, endoamp ftw! Also, the other benefits of endoamp besides the cortisol reduction are profound. additionally, not everyone responds well to Ashwagandha
My main point of contention was with the person who said Ashwagandha studies were lacking. Which is laughable. Not only are there studies showing cortisol reduction, but also LBM improvements.

Endo Amp has an outstanding profile. No debate at all.
 
Hyde

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Like @thebigt said, endoamp ftw! Also, the other benefits of endoamp besides the cortisol reduction are profound. additionally, not everyone responds well to Ashwagandha
My main point of contention was with the person who said Ashwagandha studies were lacking. Which is laughable. Not only are there studies showing cortisol reduction, but also LBM improvements.

Endo Amp has an outstanding profile. No debate at all.
Endo Amp is the exact product I have been using. I really believe it has made a big difference in power. It’s the only new variable this PCT go-around.
 
StarScream66

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Wut? Ashwagandha is one the most comprehensively studied OTC supplements out there. For a variety of purposes. Yes, anxiety reduction is one, but literature supports LBM accrual, weight loss, memory/cognition, sleep quality, etc.
I suggest you read the examine article on ashwagandha. The studies are VERY lacking and there really have been very few on it. Not sure where you're getting your info from.

As for the price of PS, that's why suggested lecithin as an alternative. It's high in PS and much cheaper.
 
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Resolve10

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I suggest you read the examine article on ashwagandha. The studies are VERY lacking and there really have been very few on it. Not sure where you're getting your info from.

As for the price of PS, that's why suggested lecithin as an alternative. It's high in PS and much cheaper.
A little confused how Ash doesn't have enough studies yet PS does? Not sure I am reading the same thing on Examine that you are.

Especially with a suggestion of lecithin as a source. 1 2 3

PS has repeatedly had trouble replicating early studies of cortisol control. Outside of that I think it is a great ingredient and I've used at high doses before with success, so not sure why I am posting other than just confused about the rationale here.
 
StarScream66

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@Resolve10 I'm going to have to go through the studies and read your replies and look at the studies on ashwaganda to gvie you a good reply. But, I'm right in the middle of trying to fix my Xbox with online tech support, so I'll have to get back to you later. But, if I forget and don't come back, send me a PM and I'll get back to it.
 
Rad83

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A nice dark roast coffee on an empty stomach when you wake up!

Have a toilet on standby!
 

Iwilleattuna

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gw501516 + Injectable l carnitine , if not injectable , run a high dose orally , around 3 grams + arimistane 75-100mg+ Baet aka invictus or apex alchemy b aet. Other additions would be berberine and cinnamon for better insulin sensitivity

6oxo is also very good, but I wouldn't run it with arimistane. Apex alchemy carries this, as well.
 
StarScream66

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A little confused how Ash doesn't have enough studies yet PS does? Not sure I am reading the same thing on Examine that you are.

Especially with a suggestion of lecithin as a source. 1 2 3

PS has repeatedly had trouble replicating early studies of cortisol control. Outside of that I think it is a great ingredient and I've used at high doses before with success, so not sure why I am posting other than just confused about the rationale here.
So, study 1 you linked seemed to indicate PS had a positive benefit on the outcome of the athletes mentioned, even though it was small sample size with a short duration. Study 2 also showed a positive outcome, as did study 3. Now I will say that the dosages used in all those studies were high.

So, I looked through the studies on PS at examine.com and they showed there was no benefit or cortisol with soy based PS, only PS derived from bovine cortex. However, PS supplements and drugs (yes, apparently PS is manufactured as a drug for Alzheimer's disease, ADHD and other uses.)


However, soy or sunflower lecithin appears to have a pretty high dose of PS in it at around 500mg-2g.

Soy lecithin contains:

  • Phosphatidylserine (PS; phosphatidic acid bound to serine) at around 3% total phospholipids[4]
  • Phosphatidylcholine (PC; phosphatidic acid bound to choline) at up to 29-31.7% of phospholipids[5][4]
  • Phosphatidylethanolamine (PE; phosphatidic acid bound to ethanolamine) at up to 20.8-23% of phospholipids[5][4]
  • Phosphatidylinositol (PI; phosphatidic acid bound to inositol) up to 15-17.5% of phospholipids[5][4]
  • Phosphatidic acid (PA; 7-17.5% of total phospholipids[5][4])
  • Phytosterols (most as glycosides) including β-sitosterol, sitostanol, and sitosteryl β-d-glucoside[6]
  • Phytoglycolipids (14.8% total phospholipids[4])
With the lipid composition of the above phospholipids accounting for:

  • Linoleic acid at 64%[4]
  • Palmitic acid at 14%[4]
  • Oleic acid at 10%[4]
  • Linolenic acid at 7%[4]
  • Stearic acid at 4%[4]
Relative to other sources of lecithin, soy appears to be comparatively high in PI with 15% of the phospholipids as PI[5] and 287mg/100g food product (soy overall, not just oil) being PI;[7] another popular lecithin, derived from egg yolk, is much lower in PI.[8]

Just as a side note, lecithin also contains Phosphatidic acid which has been shown to increase muscle mass in some studies (but again, at pretty high doses).


Now, I'm bad at math so I can't calculate how much 3% of PS would be in 2g of lecithin. Maybe a tool like WolfRam Alpha would be useful in figuring that out. Nowhere could I find how many mg exactly of PS is in lecithin, but the standard number I got was always just 3%.

So, I actually emailed NOW Foods and asked them how many mg of Phosphatidylserine is contained in their Soy Lecithin and Sunflower Lecithin granules. I'll report back when I get an answer.

So, now on to Ashwagandha which I'm just going to abbreviate as Ash for the purposes of brevity. I believe ash is a good supplement and has a lot of positive benefits, including cortisol reduction in some cases. So, taking something like KSM66 along with a high dose of PS would probably be beneficial in reducing your cortisol levels. Incidentally, Health Tests Direct offers a cortisol test so you can actually test yourself and see how your levels are.


Ash seems to reduce cortisol in people with high stress levels and those are the only tests that have been done with it. No studies have been done to look at cortisol reduction in ash in relation to exercise. But, most of us are probably pretty stressed due to the situation in the US with all the civil unrest and a global pandemic going on, so it still could probably be beneficial in that regards.

Ashwagandha appears to have an anti-stress component which underlies its claim as an adaptogen, and it appears to be more related to a decrease in circulating cortisol (see the hormone section on corticosteroids) and improves physical functioning under psychological stress

The studies on ash for exercise are also very lacking, with studies generally only using untrained or sedentary individuals.

A trend to increase lean mass has been noted in otherwise sedentary persons which failed to reach statistical significance; no studies currently exist in trained individuals
So, although it looks promising, the studies just aren't there to claim ash can reduce cortisol from exercise or improve exercise performance. That's not to say it doesn't have other benefits, but all I'm saying is we need more research before we can say for certain it's helping.

My only personal experience with ash was using an ash liquid extract in ethanol and KSM66. I was looking for anxiety reduction and anxiolytic effects and I experienced neither with either supplement.
 

CroLifter

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properly seasoned kale is good stuff.
Good stuff. Alongside some mashed potatoes and grilled chicken breast, plus some orange or lemon juice. How could you ask for more?

In fact mashed potatoes and grilled chicken breast for me goes well with any green veggie. Kale, cabbage, brussel sprouts...

Wait this is a cutting thread right? 😀
 
aaronuconn

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Ash seems to reduce cortisol in people with high stress levels and those are the only tests that have been done with it. No studies have been done to look at cortisol reduction in ash in relation to exercise. But, most of us are probably pretty stressed due to the situation in the US with all the civil unrest and a global pandemic going on, so it still could probably be beneficial in that regards.



The studies on ash for exercise are also very lacking, with studies generally only using untrained or sedentary individuals.



So, although it looks promising, the studies just aren't there to claim ash can reduce cortisol from exercise or improve exercise performance. That's not to say it doesn't have other benefits, but all I'm saying is we need more research before we can say for certain it's helping.

My only personal experience with ash was using an ash liquid extract in ethanol and KSM66. I was looking for anxiety reduction and anxiolytic effects and I experienced neither with either supplement.
So, no, stating Studies done relating to exercise are lacking is not true.

Ashwagandha for gym performance in active men between ~20-34 years old.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6266766/: “the S500 group experienced statistically significant improvements in average squat power, peak bench press power, 7.5 km time trial performance, and perceived recovery scores.”

Ashwagandha on cardiorespiratory endurance in elite Indian cyclists

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3545242/: “There was significant improvement in the experimental group in all parameters, whereas the placebo group did not show any change with respect to their baseline parameters. There was significant improvement in the experimental group in all parameters, namely, VO2 max (t = 5.356; P < 0.001), METS (t = 4.483; P < 0.001), and time for exhaustion on treadmill (t = 4.813; P < 0.001) in comparison to the placebo group which did not show any change with respect to their baseline parameters.”

i’ll re-look at the rest of your message later, but I think it’s important to understand the mechanism of action for adaptogens.
 

Resolve10

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So, study 1 you linked seemed to indicate PS had a positive benefit on the outcome of the athletes mentioned, even though it was small sample size with a short duration. Study 2 also showed a positive outcome, as did study 3. Now I will say that the dosages used in all those studies were high.

But none of those studies showed benefits to changes in Cortisol, your primary claim here.

So, I looked through the studies on PS at examine.com and they showed there was no benefit or cortisol with soy based PS, only PS derived from bovine cortex. However, PS supplements and drugs (yes, apparently PS is manufactured as a drug for Alzheimer's disease, ADHD and other uses.)


However, soy or sunflower lecithin appears to have a pretty high dose of PS in it at around 500mg-2g.

We were talking about Cortisol here, you recommended it for that over Ash. I know PS has other health benefits, much like Ash does. A little unfair to take a shot and say Ash is VERY underwhelming when the lecithin based PS suggestions haven't replicated Cortisol lowering effects.

So, now on to Ashwagandha which I'm just going to abbreviate as Ash for the purposes of brevity. I believe ash is a good supplement and has a lot of positive benefits, including cortisol reduction in some cases. So, taking something like KSM66 along with a high dose of PS would probably be beneficial in reducing your cortisol levels. Incidentally, Health Tests Direct offers a cortisol test so you can actually test yourself and see how your levels are.


Ash seems to reduce cortisol in people with high stress levels and those are the only tests that have been done with it. No studies have been done to look at cortisol reduction in ash in relation to exercise. But, most of us are probably pretty stressed due to the situation in the US with all the civil unrest and a global pandemic going on, so it still could probably be beneficial in that regards.


The studies on ash for exercise are also very lacking, with studies generally only using untrained or sedentary individuals.



So, although it looks promising, the studies just aren't there to claim ash can reduce cortisol from exercise or improve exercise performance. That's not to say it doesn't have other benefits, but all I'm saying is we need more research before we can say for certain it's helping.

My only personal experience with ash was using an ash liquid extract in ethanol and KSM66. I was looking for anxiety reduction and anxiolytic effects and I experienced neither with either supplement.


Getting the feeling that since you didn't like it personally you think it doesn't work. That is fine if you don't want to use it, but you used some pretty faulty logic to conclude one works (hand waiving through studies) while saying another is VERY lacking.

This also gets into questions about why do you want to decrease Cortisol. Who said that for every individual acute decreases in training Cortisol response is warranted? I think just by the simple point that you note it may (emphasis may as again PS research with lecithin based PS is at most unsure) decrease Cortisol response to exercise better than Ash while saying Ash seems to reduce it for High Stress misses the whole point of an Adataptogenic compound. We still need Cortisol and it isn't something we want to crush, so an ingredient like Ash that helps modulate it to healthy levels would (inserting my opinion) be more ideal than something that just lowers it indiscriminately (especially just around training and in most situations, again my opinion).
Again I like PS. There are other benefits. There does appear some benefit to stress as well, but that appears not cortisol related, in comparison to Ash it is still going to be more expensive, and there would be other routes to take (but I regularly take 300mg PS so this isn't anti-PS).

So, no, stating Studies done relating to exercise are lacking is not true.

Ashwagandha for gym performance in active men between ~20-34 years old.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6266766/: “the S500 group experienced statistically significant improvements in average squat power, peak bench press power, 7.5 km time trial performance, and perceived recovery scores.”

Ashwagandha on cardiorespiratory endurance in elite Indian cyclists

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3545242/: “There was significant improvement in the experimental group in all parameters, whereas the placebo group did not show any change with respect to their baseline parameters. There was significant improvement in the experimental group in all parameters, namely, VO2 max (t = 5.356; P < 0.001), METS (t = 4.483; P < 0.001), and time for exhaustion on treadmill (t = 4.813; P < 0.001) in comparison to the placebo group which did not show any change with respect to their baseline parameters.”

i’ll re-look at the rest of your message later, but I think it’s important to understand the mechanism of action for adaptogens.
Pretty much this. I don't care if you like PS more than Ash, we all can have things we enjoy more than others, just no need to try and act like it has no research and come out with a strong statement AGAINST it. Just seems like some weird logic to me. It seems unfairly forgiving to one side and condemning 🤷‍♂️ to the other.
 
StarScream66

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So, no, stating Studies done relating to exercise are lacking is not true.

Ashwagandha for gym performance in active men between ~20-34 years old.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6266766/: “the S500 group experienced statistically significant improvements in average squat power, peak bench press power, 7.5 km time trial performance, and perceived recovery scores.”

Ashwagandha on cardiorespiratory endurance in elite Indian cyclists

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3545242/: “There was significant improvement in the experimental group in all parameters, whereas the placebo group did not show any change with respect to their baseline parameters. There was significant improvement in the experimental group in all parameters, namely, VO2 max (t = 5.356; P < 0.001), METS (t = 4.483; P < 0.001), and time for exhaustion on treadmill (t = 4.813; P < 0.001) in comparison to the placebo group which did not show any change with respect to their baseline parameters.”

i’ll re-look at the rest of your message later, but I think it’s important to understand the mechanism of action for adaptogens.
I'm not trying to poke holes in your studies, the first one looks very interesting, but it was paid for by the manufacturer of the supplement company who owns the patent for the product. So, that's one thing you have to take with a grain of salt.

The authors are grateful and recognize the contributions made by Scott Habowski towards data collection on this project. The ashwagandha product (Sensoril®) and funding for this project was received through an external grant from Natreon, Inc
If you Google Sensoril, you'll find other studies from the manufacturer claiming it cures bipolar, generalized anxiety disorder, "psychomotor performance", and other ailments. There are 2 big manufacturers of the Withanolide extract (ash), which is Natreon, which owns Sensoril and Sabsina, an Indian company that owns the patent to KSM66 and discovered ash originally. They sell a whole range of these "adaptogens", a term which I'm very skeptical of in general as it sort of means it can apply to anything and do anything. You can read the very short article on wikipedia regarding the terminology of adaptogens and why it's a problematic label for dietary supplements.

But back to ash, Sensoril uses a root and leaf extract of Withanolide whereas KSM-66 just uses the root extract. Generally, in "ayurvedic" medicine (another term and way of thinking I have a big problem with), ash just uses the root extract. Ayurveda is considered a form of pseudoscience like Chinese medicine, balancing your chi, Crystal Therapy, etc. So, the whole concept is based on an extremely flawed theory from the start. Now, that doesn't mean some of herbs and things that have come from the 'science' are all wrong, bad, or don't work. Ash seems to be an outlier in this area because it does appear to have some very positive benefits - but again, it's lacking serious studies on MANY of the claims being made for it.

But, let's get back to your studies. Both of them involve cycling, which isn't particularly applicable to bodybuilding, as cycling is an endurance race and has nothing to do with anabolism or hypertrophy of muscle tissue. So, the conclusion of one study is:
Ashwagandha improved the cardiorespiratory endurance of the elite athletes.
. That's all well and good, but again, it's not applicable to the sport we're interested in, unless you're coming here for advice on cycling or doing IronMan competitions or things like that.

The other study is much more compelling.

Body composition (DEXA), muscular strength, power, and endurance, 7.5 km cycling time trial, and clinical blood chemistries were measured at baseline and after 12 weeks of supplementation and training. Subjects were required to maintain their normal dietary habits and to follow a specific, progressive overload resistance-training program (4-day/week, upper body/lower body split). 2 × 2 mixed factorial ANOVA was used for analysis and statistical significance was set a priori at p ≤ 0.05. Results: Gains in 1-RM squat (S500: +19.1 ± 13.0 kg vs. PLA +10.0 ± 6.2 kg, p = 0.009) and bench press (S500: +12.8 ± 8.2 kg vs. PLA: +8.0 ± 6.0 kg, p = 0.048) were significantly greater in S500. Changes in DEXA-derived android/gynoid ratio (S500: +0.0 ± 0.14 vs. PLA: +0.09 ± 0.1, p = 0.03) also favored S500. No other between-group differences were found for body composition, visual analog scales for recovery and affect, or systemic hemodynamics, however, only the S500 group experienced statistically significant improvements in average squat power, peak bench press power, 7.5 km time trial performance, and perceived recovery scores. Clinical chemistry analysis indicated a slight polycythemia effect in PLA, with no other statistical or clinically relevant changes being noted. Conclusions: A 500 mg dose of an aqueous extract of Ashwagandha improves upper and lower-body strength, supports a favorable distribution of body mass, and was well tolerated clinically in recreationally active men over a 12-week resistance training and supplementation period.
Now, the workout they did is a bit different than a typical bodybuilder workout. "Subjects were required to maintain their normal dietary habits and to follow a specific, progressive overload resistance-training program (4-day/week, upper body/lower body split)". We're never told what their normal dietary habits were, but they were doing a 4 day split of upper and lower body. Also consider the following "Using a placebo-controlled approach, 10 healthy participants were assigned to consume either a placebo or Ashwagandha (500 mg/day) for 10 days, and were assessed for changes in power, balance, and maximal oxygen consumption (VO2Max)."

So, we're only looking at 10 subjects over a 10 day period. That's a very small sample size and short study.

It's a very long read, and the results sound promising, but they would need to be replicated before you could consider this a valid reoccurrence. Again, not trying to poke holes, but that's just how we want to look at our supplements. Look at creatine for example. It's had literally hundreds of studies over the last 30 years all showing positive benefits with very few downsides.

Having said all that, if you want to take ash and you feel you get a positive benefit from taking it, I would encourage you to continue taking it, but look at the differences between the Sensoril product and the KSM-66 product. Right now, we mostly have anecdotal feedback of a comparison between these two products, and no head to head studies showing which is the best or most beneficial.

I can go on, but I think this post is long enough, so I'll leave it at that.
 
StarScream66

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Again I like PS. There are other benefits. There does appear some benefit to stress as well, but that appears not cortisol related, in comparison to Ash it is still going to be more expensive, and there would be other routes to take (but I regularly take 300mg PS so this isn't anti-PS).



Pretty much this. I don't care if you like PS more than Ash, we all can have things we enjoy more than others, just no need to try and act like it has no research and come out with a strong statement AGAINST it. Just seems like some weird logic to me. It seems unfairly forgiving to one side and condemning 🤷‍♂️ to the other.
I'm not trying to say one is better than the other or sh!t talk ash :) They both are lacking multiple studies showing the benefits they claim. I'm trying to look at it from a purely scientific perspective. I follow the skeptical ideology of Carl Sagan and his book The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark. For a quick overview, here is his Baloney Detection Kit. I'm also a big fan of Quackwatch (although I think the author got too old and is no longer updating the site) as well as the book Muscles, Speed, and Lies: What the Sport Supplement Industry Does Not Want Athletes or Consumers to Know. It's my personal opinion that probably 98% of all supplements are bullsh!t, and the 2% that work are simply under looked because people are looking for the next best thing..
 

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I'm not trying to say one is better than the other or sh!t talk ash :) They both are lacking multiple studies showing the benefits they claim. I'm trying to look at it from a purely scientific perspective. I follow the skeptical ideology of Carl Sagan and his book The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark. For a quick overview, here is his Baloney Detection Kit. I'm also a big fan of Quackwatch (although I think the author got too old and is no longer updating the site) as well as the book Muscles, Speed, and Lies: What the Sport Supplement Industry Does Not Want Athletes or Consumers to Know. It's my personal opinion that probably 98% of all supplements are bullsh!t, and the 2% that work are simply under looked because people are looking for the next best thing..
Ok we agree on that. Just think its annoying you called one VERY lacking and are poking holes but ignore even more holes in the other ingredient.

We disagree and I see from your post in other areas that we just won't see eye to eye on these kinds of things, but that is fine it is always welcome to have different points of view.
 
StarScream66

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Ok we agree on that. Just think its annoying you called one VERY lacking and are poking holes but ignore even more holes in the other ingredient.
I think that's a very fair criticism. PS, AFAIK, only has the one study showing it reduces cortisol. Honestly, I haven't looked to see if there were others.

We disagree and I see from your post in other areas that we just won't see eye to eye on these kinds of things, but that is fine it is always welcome to have different points of view.
I don't think we necessarily disagree. Absolutely use ash if you feel if it benefits you. But, like I mentioned above, you can always get a blood test and see if it is really lowering your cortisol levels or not. ;)
 

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