Anyman's personal journal: May it help me and others to follow

[hardasnails1973]

However, it was evolution that bestowed on our species the intellect that allowed us to develop all of that medical technology. It is that same intellect that will allow us to adapt to the unintended consquences of our activities.

It is also our intelligence, technology and ignorance that is destroying us !!

 

[galapagos]

True in some regards but infair in others.

Take myself for example - great natural athlete, yet, if it wasn't for the invention of "glasses" and later "contact lenses" I woulda never lived past 13 in ancient times. Im so near sided I woulda never been able to hunt/fish/survive. So in a way I have been relient on medical technology since I was 13 to basically live - without it I could not.

This may come as a surprise, but myopia is entirely influenced by environment. If you (your genes, that is) had been raised in a hunter-gatherer society you would have had 20-20 vision.

Traditional hunter-gatherer society are NEVER plagued by nearsightedness. Why? Because they develop in an environment in which there are plently of "far" objects to look at. Modern westerners, on the other hand, tend to be raised in close quarters. We live in houses where the farthest sites are usually not more than 30 feet away. We spend a good deal of our childhood in the classroom, we grow up learning to read text that is often no more than a foot from our face, and watch television at a leisurely distance.

Nearsightedness is not the result of a flawed genetic make-up, but rather a novel environment in which the human eye develops rarely having to focus in on something from afar.

The troubling aspect of it all is how testosterone keeps plummeting. I believe that something chemical is going on here.

I'd be curious to know whether this assessment was controlled for age. We have been living a lot longer...obviously, average male endogenous testosterone is going to decrease.

And if it is in fact true that the average, say, 25 year old has less testosterone nowadays than that of his counterpart of 50 years ago, one could potentially identify all kinds of environmental influences: tightly-whities, decreased exposure to sunshine (lower kisspeptin activity), phytoestrogens, etc...

The point is, genetically we are all essentially the same as our ancestors ("stone-agers in the fast lane", as some evolutionists like to put it). It is our novel environment that causes much of the problem in actuality.

 

[cpeil2]

Normally I'd agree with you. However, if we are mucking up the environment and ourslves with massive and heretofor unknown chemicals we might see changes in only a few generations. Look at the Men's Health article. Assuming the claims therein to be true, a 68% decrease in Sperm in only 70 years is staggering.

The medical changes and chemicals we now experience have only been around for a few decades, but have introduced more changes than in the last 5000 years put together.

Our children and grandchildren may pay a very steep price for our actions or inactions. We here on this board already are.

But you have to distinguish between changes that are purely constitutional and those that have a genetic component. I don't see any reason to believe that a 68% decrease in average sperm count is anything other than constitutional.

 

[cpeil2]

Normally I'd agree with you. However, if we are mucking up the environment and ourslves with massive and heretofor unknown chemicals we might see changes in only a few generations. Look at the Men's Health article. Assuming the claims therein to be true, a 68% decrease in Sperm in only 70 years is staggering.

The medical changes and chemicals we now experience have only been around for a few decades, but have introduced more changes than in the last 5000 years put together.

Our children and grandchildren may pay a very steep price for our actions or inactions. We here on this board already are.

A lot of us on this board, if this were 500 years ago, would already be compost, so we wouldn't have gotten the opportunity to experience hypogonadism.

 

[cpeil2]

It is also our intelligence, technology and ignorance that is destroying us !!

I do not agree that our intelligence is destroying us.


I agree that our ignorance is destroying us.

I do not agree that our technology is destroying us. The misuse of our technology caused by our ignorance is destroying us.

 

[nallepuh]

This is still puzzling me. Trying to figure out out 1 week of clomid could raise T from 200 to about 319, while 3 whole weeks of hcg did pretty much nothing. I get that clomid can block E, but how did it raise T while hcg didn't?

Maybe hcg will take more time, or perhaps I'm just out of luck as increaseingly appears to be the case. For me, it might only be appropriate to keep what little natural funtioning I have left going and avoid shrinkage.

I understand that 319 is still less than half where I need to be, but the disparity still intrigues me.

Any thoughts?

Could adrenals possibly pitch in for another 100 if put under the whip? hcg only targets balls to make T whilst clomid could possibly target everything that can increase T? If adrenal stands for something like 5-10 % normally that would in normal range of 600 be something like 30-60 but if stressed maybe they could pull another 100 in T. I dont even know if that feedback is possibly so im mearly speculating..

 

[plymouth city]

The medical changes and chemicals we now experience have only been around for a few decades, but have introduced more changes than in the last 5000 years put together.

.

:thumbsup: I concur

 

[plymouth city]

This may come as a surprise, but myopia is entirely influenced by environment. If you (your genes, that is) had been raised in a hunter-gatherer society you would have had 20-20 vision.

Traditional hunter-gatherer society are NEVER plagued by nearsightedness. Why? Because they develop in an environment in which there are plently of "far" objects to look at. Modern westerners, on the other hand, tend to be raised in close quarters. We live in houses where the farthest sites are usually not more than 30 feet away. We spend a good deal of our childhood in the classroom, we grow up learning to read text that is often no more than a foot from our face, and watch television at a leisurely distance.

Nearsightedness is not the result of a flawed genetic make-up, but rather a novel environment in which the human eye develops rarely having to focus in on something from afar.

.

In actuality I was an outdoors kid. My guardians were old school and didn't let me watch tv/play video games, I pretty much spent my entire childhood outside running around and getting into trouble.

Myopia can be genetic. I have also read some interesting stuff linking high GL carbs and nightlights as well connecting with near sightedness.

 

[plymouth city]

And if it is in fact true that the average, say, 25 year old has less testosterone nowadays than that of his counterpart of 50 years ago, one could potentially identify all kinds of environmental influences: tightly-whities, decreased exposure to sunshine (lower kisspeptin activity), phytoestrogens, etc...

The point is, genetically we are all essentially the same as our ancestors ("stone-agers in the fast lane", as some evolutionists like to put it). It is our novel environment that causes much of the problem in actuality.

Now, the study that came out that I seen on MSNBC and read on yahoo had BW to back it up. They had actual BW data from the last 30 years that showed an average persons T level has declined big time, something like 25 percent(or more, can't exactly remember)

 

[anyman]

Update: We are trying one last thing before going to TRT, which appears inevitable.

Since I got the news that 3 weeks on hcg (500iu 3x/wk) has done nothing, I was told to try a full 1000 3x/wk for a few weeks to see if something can be shaken up before we resort to TRT. It'll be interesting to see where that goes, although at this point I don't expect much.

I've pretty much resigned myself to starting TRT. Just need to get the final word and instructions from Dr. S when I speak to him next week. As much as I am put off by needing it, I am not seeing any other choices. Kinda hard to be a good Dad and husband when I am constantly battling fatigue, irritability and even depression--things I never had before this nonsense started. I am troubled greatly by having to do this at all of 43 yrs of age. However, the alternative is now worse. Time to move forward. Can't say I didn't try everything to avoid it.

At this point I almost look forward to it. I wonder if he'll suggest topicals or T cyp. I tried 5g Androgel 1x/day and then 2x/day for all of a 1-1/2 months last winter. Saw only a 100 point rise in T. Maybe he'll suggest a stronger compouded cream or something.

I'll post more details as I get them. Suggestions, discussions and input are, as always, welcome.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Since I got the news that 3 weeks on hcg (500iu 3x/wk) has done nothing, I was told to try a full 1000 3x/wk for a few weeks to see if something can be shaken up before we resort to TRT. It'll be interesting to see where that goes, although at this point I don't expect much.

I've pretty much resigned myself to starting TRT. Just need to get the final word and instructions from Dr. S when I speak to him next week. As much as I am put off by needing it, I am not seeing any other choices. Kinda hard to be a good Dad and husband when I am constantly battling fatigue, irritability and even depression--things I never had before this nonsense started. I am troubled greatly by having to do this at all of 43 yrs of age. However, the alternative is now worse. Time to move forward. Can't say I didn't try everything to avoid it.

At this point I almost look forward to it. I wonder if he'll suggest topicals or T cyp. I tried 5g Androgel 1x/day and then 2x/day for all of a 1-1/2 months last winter. Saw only a 100 point rise in T. Maybe he'll suggest a stronger compouded cream or something.

I'll post more details as I get them. Suggestions, discussions and input are, as always, welcome.

\

Well I like the idea that its just for a few weeks rather then a few months and you feel worse. I'm sure you will monitor your e2 at the same time so it does not go up the ass. Why would he do like 400 ius a day every day to keep things in your system on a nice even ride? and I would go right to the shots because you know gels do not work for you in the past why waste more time then you need to be feel like crap. I am surprised he does not investigate estrogen metabolism first visit. As a dr I would want to rule out all variables before hand to see if there was metabolic road block some where before looking for symptoms of the cause..

 

[anyman]

e did check the E2- said it was not elevated. Of course this confuses me even more!

\

Well I like the idea that its just for a few weeks rather then a few months and you feel worse. I'm sure you will monitor your e2 at the same time so it does not go up the ass. Why would he do like 400 ius a day every day to keep things in your system on a nice even ride? and I would go right to the shots because you know gels do not work for you in the past why waste more time then you need to be feel like crap. I am surprised he does not investigate estrogen metabolism first visit. As a dr I would want to rule out all variables before hand to see if there was metabolic road block some where before looking for symptoms of the cause..

Acoording to his ass't the E2 is not elevated at all. It's still under 32 per the Quest test he ordered. This puzzles me. If E2is not arising via aromatization, then what is all the hcg I've taken done? Why hasn't it done anything? I wonder if the 7 hours or so of unrefridgerated time between him mixing it and my return home could have spoiled it. He didn't think it would. I'll be trying a new bottle tonight, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

I'll defer to him on the shots vs topicals. To be fair, I only tried Andrgel for 6 weeks at most. Maybe a 5% compounded would be better. I have no idea.

Either way, we speak again on 9/5. I'm rather anxious to see where this goes. Now that I've tried pertty much everything I can think of to avoid external T I'm looking forward to taking the next step-and hopefully feeling better than I have in a long time.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Acoording to his ass't the E2 is not elevated at all. It's still under 32 per the Quest test he ordered. This puzzles me. If E2is not arising via aromatization, then what is all the hcg I've taken done? Why hasn't it done anything? I wonder if the 7 hours or so of unrefridgerated time between him mixing it and my return home could have spoiled it. He didn't think it would. I'll be trying a new bottle tonight, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

I'll defer to him on the shots vs topicals. To be fair, I only tried Andrgel for 6 weeks at most. Maybe a 5% compounded would be better. I have no idea.

Either way, we speak again on 9/5. I'm rather anxious to see where this goes. Now that I've tried pertty much everything I can think of to avoid external T I'm looking forward to taking the next step-and hopefully feeling better than I have in a long time.

Well like I said give him time but do not let it go for 3-4 months because that is time that is lost and you could be getting better. e2 is a tricky bugger if shbg is low 20 then 32 may be a good number but some people here may need it to be lower to feel more optimal but that is some thing for him to decide. I kow Ksman feels difference from 37 to 20 big time just some thing to think about . Dr s is the dr though..

I know where my problem is point blank
Dim is causing a over flow of 2 and 4 hydroxestrones which can not be methyltaed. Its straining my methyl groups (low homocystein levels) can not keep up with the demand. So I increased sam-e to 800 and TMG to 500 mgs BID to really suport methyation. Esrtogen metabolites are running rampant causing all kinds of estrogen and e2 imbalances. I got worse when i started DIm now I know why !!

 

[JanSz]

Well like I said give him time but do not let it go for 3-4 months because that is time that is lost and you could be getting better. e2 is a tricky bugger if shbg is low 20 then 32 may be a good number but some people here may need it to be lower to feel more optimal but that is some thing for him to decide. I kow Ksman feels difference from 37 to 20 big time just some thing to think about . Dr s is the dr though..

I know where my problem is point blank
Dim is causing a over flow of 2 and 4 hydroxestrones which can not be methyltaed. Its straining my methyl groups (low homocystein levels) can not keep up with the demand. So I increased sam-e to 800 and TMG to 500 mgs BID to really suport methyation. Esrtogen metabolites are running rampant causing all kinds of estrogen and e2 imbalances. I got worse when i started DIm now I know why !!

What is BID ?

I take 2pills 500mg TMG
with my DIM

And I do not really take pure DIM, I take Dual_Action

You may want to try what I do:
--------------------------------
2 pills
TMG
500 mg, 180 tablets
Item Catalog Number: 359
http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00359.html
-------------------------------------
4 pills
Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw
60 vegetarian capsules
Item Catalog Number: 969
http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00969.html
but LEF recomends one pill for up to 160# body weight,
over that another pill. So you would use only 2 pills per their recomendations.
---------------------------------------------------------
2 pills
SAMe (S-adenosyl-methionine)
200 mg, 50 enteric coated tablets
Item Catalog Number: 453
http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00453.html
------------------------------------------------------------

 

[hardasnails1973]

What is BID ?

I take 2pills 500mg TMG
with my DIM

And I do not really take pure DIM, I take Dual_Action

You may want to try what I do:
--------------------------------
2 pills
TMG
500 mg, 180 tablets
Item Catalog Number: 359
http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00359.html
-------------------------------------
4 pills
Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw
60 vegetarian capsules
Item Catalog Number: 969
http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00969.html
but LEF recomends one pill for up to 160# body weight,
over that another pill. So you would use only 2 pills per their recomendations.
---------------------------------------------------------
2 pills
SAMe (S-adenosyl-methionine)
200 mg, 50 enteric coated tablets
Item Catalog Number: 453
http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00453.html
------------------------------------------------------------

BID = 2 times a day so basically what you are doing/

Janzs my methyation is very low and from my research TMG takes care of only the 4 hydroxy not the 2 hydrox methoxy estrones which are metabolized by COMT enyzme driven by sam-e. So since taken DIm I probably had a build up of 16,4, 2 , methhydrox estrones which are the ones that are causing all my damage and depelting methyl groups. On my Intracell testing My b -12 , folate calcium all dropped like a rock indicating undermethyation from what remains to be seen probably the build of estrone no being metabolized properly in the first place..Tell you trouth since starting DIM i feel worse then before and feels like my , plus my thyroid , dopamine and neurotransmitters are off because of undermethyation

 

[JanSz]

BID = 2 times a day so basically what you are doing/

Janzs my methyation is very low and from my research TMG takes care of only the 4 hydroxy not the 2 hydrox methoxy estrones which are metabolized by COMT enyzme driven by sam-e. So since taken DIm I probably had a build up of 16,4, 2 , methhydrox estrones which are the ones that are causing all my damage and depelting methyl groups. On my Intracell testing My b -12 , folate calcium all dropped like a rock indicating undermethyation from what remains to be seen probably the build of estrone no being metabolized properly in the first place..Tell you trouth since starting DIM i feel worse then before and feels like my , plus my thyroid , dopamine and neurotransmitters are off because of undermethyation

I repeat again
DualAction from LEF contains very little DIM
and many other ingredients.

Yet, its purpose is to work on 2/16 ratio.
http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00969.html
Why do not you give it a chance, you are screwing up with other DIM's long enough.
LEF have about 60 scientists and other doctors, I assume they must know something.

http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00969.html
==========================================
==========================================
Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw
60 vegetarian capsules
Item Catalog Number: 969
Scientists have identified specific extracts from cruciferous vegetables (broccoli, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, etc.) that modulate hormones in a way to help maintain healthy cell division. For instance, animal studies have shown that the cruciferous vegetable extract indole-3-carbinol (I3C) modulates estrogen hormones by favorably changing the ratio of protective 2-hydroxyestrone versus the damaging 16-hydroxyestrone.1 Indole-3-carbinol also induces phase I and II detoxifying enzymes that can help neutralize estrogen metabolites and xenobiotic estrogen-like environmental chemicals.2 Human studies support the beneficial role of I3C in positively altering estrogen metabolism.3 Di-indolyl-methane (DIM), a phytonutrient found in cruciferous vegetables, has been shown in animal studies to help maintain normal levels of a potentially damaging estrogen called 4-hydroxyestrone.4

The glucosinolates are major constituents of cruciferous vegetables that have been shown to promote normal apoptosis and induce the expression of the beneficial p53 gene via an estrogen-independent action.5

Watercress contains isothiocyanates, but in a broader spectrum than does broccoli. The primary isothiocyanate precursor (PEiTC) in watercress functions via four specific mechanisms to maintain healthy cell division.6 Extracts from rosemary enhance liver metabolism of estradiol and estrone,7 inhibits the formation of DNA adducts,8 and have been shown to impede estrogen-induced growth promotion in certain tissues.7

Cat’s Claw, the Amazonian wonder herb, also known as Uncaria tomentosa or Uña de Gato, has been available for years, but there are various qualities of extracts. Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable products contain only Cat’s Claw water extract which has naturally occurring potent compounds called carboxy alkyl esters. These compounds, not found in typical Cat’s Claw products, have properties of DNA repair and anti-inflammation, and immune stimulation. Cat's claw protects cells against oxidative stress and inhibits lipopolysaccharide-induced iNOS gene expression, nitrite formation, cell death and inhibited the activation of NF-kappaB.9

The Cat’s Claw water extract material is produced through a patented aqueous extraction process which also removes tetracyclic oxindole alkaloids (TOA). TOA inhibit the activity of the other active compounds in Cat’s Claw, so it was highest priority to find a TOA-free Cat’s Claw to deliver maximum benefit.

The patented extraction process produces a standardized water soluble extract that can be readily absorbed by the body.

Life Extension has combined its cruciferous vegetable complex with a standardized resveratrol extract based on indications from published scientific literature that resveratrol may also be an effective plant extract for maintaining optimal health.

This organic whole-grape extract contains a spectrum of polyphenols naturally found in red wine, such as proanthocyanidins, anthocyanins, and flavonoids.

References
1. Biochem Pharm. 2002, 64;393-404.
2. Toxicol Appl Pharm. 2001 Jul 15;174(2):146-52.
3. J Natl Cancer Inst. 1997 May 21;89(10):718-23.
4. Cancer Detect Prevent. 2004;28:72-9.
5. Carcinogenesis. 2002 Apr;23(4):581-6.
6. Mol Cancer Ther. 2003 Oct;2(10);1045-52.
7. Carcinogenesis. 1998 Oct;19(10):1821-7.
8. Carcinogenesis. 1995 Sep;16(9):2057-62.
9. Aliment Pharmacol Ther. 1998 Dec;12(12):1279-89.
Supplement Facts
Serving Size 1 capsule

Servings Per Container 60

Amount Per Serving
Broccoli (Brassica oleracea l.) Super Concentrate Extract
400 mg

(plant and sprouts) [std. to 4% glucosinolates (16 mg)]


Watercress (Nasturtium officinale) 4:1 Extract (leaf)
100 mg

Indole-3-Carbinol (I3C)
80 mg

Rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis) Extract (leaves)
50 mg

[std. to 20% diterpenic compounds (10 mg) and


providing carnosic acid/carnosol]


Cat's Claw (Uncaria tomentosa) Extract (bark)
50 mg

[std. to 8% carboxy alkyl esters (4 mg)]


Resveratrol [from Red Grape (Vitis vinifera) Extract
20 mg

(whole fruit) and Polygonum cuspidatum Extract (root)]


DIM (Di-indolyl-methane)
14 mg

Other ingredients: rice flour, vegetable capsule, magnesium stearate, silica.

Contains yeast, rice, and corn. This product contains NO milk, egg, fish, peanuts, crustacean shellfish (lobster, crab, shrimp), soybeans, tree nuts, wheat, or gluten. Contains NO artificial sweeteners, flavors, colors, or preservatives.


Dosage and Use
One capsule daily for individuals weighing up to 160 pounds.

Those weighing over 160 pounds, take two capsules daily.

This product can be taken with or without food, or as recommended by a healthcare practitioner.


Caution
May interfere with oral contraceptives. If pregnant or intending to become pregnant, do not use this product. Do not use if taking antacids, H2-receptor blockers (e.g. Zantac®), or proton-pump inhibitors (e.g. Nexium®), as these drugs may impede the conversion of I3C to active metabolites.

 

[hardasnails1973]

I repeat again
DualAction from LEF contains very little DIM
and many other ingredients.

Yet, its purpose is to work on 2/16 ratio.
http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00969.html
Why do not you give it a chance, you are screwing up with other DIM's long enough.
LEF have about 60 scientists and other doctors, I assume they must know something.

http://www.lef.org/newshop/items/item00969.html
==========================================
==========================================
Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable Extract With Resveratrol & Cat's Claw
60 vegetarian capsules
Item Catalog Number: 969
Scientists have identified specific extracts from cruciferous vegetables (broccoli, cauliflower, Brussels sprouts, etc.) that modulate hormones in a way to help maintain healthy cell division. For instance, animal studies have shown that the cruciferous vegetable extract indole-3-carbinol (I3C) modulates estrogen hormones by favorably changing the ratio of protective 2-hydroxyestrone versus the damaging 16-hydroxyestrone.1 Indole-3-carbinol also induces phase I and II detoxifying enzymes that can help neutralize estrogen metabolites and xenobiotic estrogen-like environmental chemicals.2 Human studies support the beneficial role of I3C in positively altering estrogen metabolism.3 Di-indolyl-methane (DIM), a phytonutrient found in cruciferous vegetables, has been shown in animal studies to help maintain normal levels of a potentially damaging estrogen called 4-hydroxyestrone.4

The glucosinolates are major constituents of cruciferous vegetables that have been shown to promote normal apoptosis and induce the expression of the beneficial p53 gene via an estrogen-independent action.5

Watercress contains isothiocyanates, but in a broader spectrum than does broccoli. The primary isothiocyanate precursor (PEiTC) in watercress functions via four specific mechanisms to maintain healthy cell division.6 Extracts from rosemary enhance liver metabolism of estradiol and estrone,7 inhibits the formation of DNA adducts,8 and have been shown to impede estrogen-induced growth promotion in certain tissues.7

Cat’s Claw, the Amazonian wonder herb, also known as Uncaria tomentosa or Uña de Gato, has been available for years, but there are various qualities of extracts. Dual-Action Cruciferous Vegetable products contain only Cat’s Claw water extract which has naturally occurring potent compounds called carboxy alkyl esters. These compounds, not found in typical Cat’s Claw products, have properties of DNA repair and anti-inflammation, and immune stimulation. Cat's claw protects cells against oxidative stress and inhibits lipopolysaccharide-induced iNOS gene expression, nitrite formation, cell death and inhibited the activation of NF-kappaB.9

The Cat’s Claw water extract material is produced through a patented aqueous extraction process which also removes tetracyclic oxindole alkaloids (TOA). TOA inhibit the activity of the other active compounds in Cat’s Claw, so it was highest priority to find a TOA-free Cat’s Claw to deliver maximum benefit.

The patented extraction process produces a standardized water soluble extract that can be readily absorbed by the body.

Life Extension has combined its cruciferous vegetable complex with a standardized resveratrol extract based on indications from published scientific literature that resveratrol may also be an effective plant extract for maintaining optimal health.

This organic whole-grape extract contains a spectrum of polyphenols naturally found in red wine, such as proanthocyanidins, anthocyanins, and flavonoids.

References
1. Biochem Pharm. 2002, 64;393-404.
2. Toxicol Appl Pharm. 2001 Jul 15;174(2):146-52.
3. J Natl Cancer Inst. 1997 May 21;89(10):718-23.
4. Cancer Detect Prevent. 2004;28:72-9.
5. Carcinogenesis. 2002 Apr;23(4):581-6.
6. Mol Cancer Ther. 2003 Oct;2(10);1045-52.
7. Carcinogenesis. 1998 Oct;19(10):1821-7.
8. Carcinogenesis. 1995 Sep;16(9):2057-62.
9. Aliment Pharmacol Ther. 1998 Dec;12(12):1279-89.
Supplement Facts
Serving Size 1 capsule

Servings Per Container 60

Amount Per Serving
Broccoli (Brassica oleracea l.) Super Concentrate Extract
400 mg

(plant and sprouts) [std. to 4% glucosinolates (16 mg)]


Watercress (Nasturtium officinale) 4:1 Extract (leaf)
100 mg

Indole-3-Carbinol (I3C)
80 mg

Rosemary (Rosmarinus officinalis) Extract (leaves)
50 mg

[std. to 20% diterpenic compounds (10 mg) and


providing carnosic acid/carnosol]


Cat's Claw (Uncaria tomentosa) Extract (bark)
50 mg

[std. to 8% carboxy alkyl esters (4 mg)]


Resveratrol [from Red Grape (Vitis vinifera) Extract
20 mg

(whole fruit) and Polygonum cuspidatum Extract (root)]


DIM (Di-indolyl-methane)
14 mg

Other ingredients: rice flour, vegetable capsule, magnesium stearate, silica.

Contains yeast, rice, and corn. This product contains NO milk, egg, fish, peanuts, crustacean shellfish (lobster, crab, shrimp), soybeans, tree nuts, wheat, or gluten. Contains NO artificial sweeteners, flavors, colors, or preservatives.


Dosage and Use
One capsule daily for individuals weighing up to 160 pounds.

Those weighing over 160 pounds, take two capsules daily.

This product can be taken with or without food, or as recommended by a healthcare practitioner.


Caution
May interfere with oral contraceptives. If pregnant or intending to become pregnant, do not use this product. Do not use if taking antacids, H2-receptor blockers (e.g. Zantac®), or proton-pump inhibitors (e.g. Nexium®), as these drugs may impede the conversion of I3C to active metabolites.

Running out of iodoral does not help !!
did you everything that your drop in estrogens where due to iodine instead of lef products?

 

[JanSz]

Running out of iodoral does not help !!
did you everything that your drop in estrogens where due to iodine instead of lef products?

Go tomorrow morning to herbal store, get Lugol's solution.

If you can wait couple days:
[ame]http://www.amazon.com/Lugols-Iodine-2-Fluid-Oz/dp/B000I20HJY/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-8620742-0545447?ie=UTF8&s=hpc&qid=1188264332&sr=8-1[/ame]

 

[hardasnails1973]

Go tomorrow morning to herbal store, get Lugol's solution.

If you can wait couple days:
Amazon.com: Lugol's Iodine(2 Fluid Oz.): Health & Personal Care

I just ordered iodoral but I will see if they have luguols in my health food store.
I"m thinking that the increase in thyroid with out the iodine is doing me in.

Intersting concept
Thyroid medicines depeltes iodine and iodine convertes bad estrogen to good estrogen so theory about having iodine defiecincy and being on thyroid medicine does have cretince

article on estrogen mediated cancer

 

[JanSz]

I just ordered iodoral but I will see if they have luguols in my health food store.
I"m thinking that the increase in thyroid with out the iodine is doing me in.

Intersting concept
Thyroid medicines depeltes iodine and iodine convertes bad estrogen to good estrogen so theory about having iodine defiecincy and being on thyroid medicine does have cretince

article on estrogen mediated cancer

This article is written by Jonathan Wright M.D.
-----
He recomends lithium for everybody.
Wonder how goood it is?

 

[hardasnails1973]

This article is written by Jonathan Wright M.D.
-----
He recomends lithium for everybody.
Wonder how goood it is?

I prefer this guy as well
http://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/james61.htm
http://www.newswithviews.com/Howenstine/jamesA.htm

 

[JanSz]

I just ordered iodoral but I will see if they have luguols in my health food store.
I"m thinking that the increase in thyroid with out the iodine is doing me in.

Intersting concept
Thyroid medicines depeltes iodine and iodine convertes bad estrogen to good estrogen so theory about having iodine defiecincy and being on thyroid medicine does have cretince

article on estrogen mediated cancer

Jonathan Wright M.D.
writes:
Unfortunately, it's not yet possible for those of us who aren't researchers to test for 4-hyroxyestrone or its even more dangerous oxidized metabolites; hopefully, that testing will be available in two to three years.
----------------------------------------------------------
I note that
for example Genova Diagnostics (Great Smokies)
http://www.gdx.net/home/assessments/findsystems/endo.html
do only 2/16 rato, there is no 4-hyroxyestrone included.

but

http://www.rheinlabs.com/hp.html

lists all three: 2, 4 and 16

This looks like wery important information.

For some reason I do not see (on this board) much importance assigned to
The “4-hydroxyestrone” theory
============================================
Also on his web site I do not see much about 4-hydroxyestrone.

http://www.tahoma-clinic.com/estrogen2.shtml

 

[hardasnails1973]

Jonathan Wright M.D.
writes:
Unfortunately, it's not yet possible for those of us who aren't researchers to test for 4-hyroxyestrone or its even more dangerous oxidized metabolites; hopefully, that testing will be available in two to three years.
----------------------------------------------------------
I note that
for example Genova Diagnostics (Great Smokies)
GDX Endocrinology Laboratory Assessments
do only 2/16 rato, there is no 4-hyroxyestrone included.

but

Hormone Profiling

lists all three: 2, 4 and 16

This looks like wery important information.

For some reason I do not see (on this board) much importance assigned to
The “4-hydroxyestrone” theory
============================================
Also on his web site I do not see much about 4-hydroxyestrone.

Introducing FemRatio and MaleRatio

Check again !!
Genova Diagnostics EstroEssence
I just called the lab and it has like 30 dfferent plus hgh tests ALL ESTROGEN in estroessence complete

 

[JanSz]

Check again !!
Genova Diagnostics EstroEssence
I just called the lab and it has like 30 dfferent plus hgh tests ALL ESTROGEN in estroessence complete

Last Sunday I e-mailed my doctor request for scripts for Armour
and my next blood test.
When I came to pick up the scripts he told me to make longer appointment soon, he suggested me to do

Metabolic Oxidative Profile,

but had no time to go into any detals.
I think it is at Smokies Laboratory, Genova Diagnostics.
They have a number of similar metabolic tests.
Wonder if you, HAN, could pin point which one I want.
At the same time, I think I want to check the 2, 4, 16 Hydroxyestrones, (possibly other stuff).
Again there is few similar tests that the ofer,
would you please tell me which one I want.

Exact name of test and link to it.

Thank you.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Last Sunday I e-mailed my doctor request for scripts for Armour
and my next blood test.
When I came to pick up the scripts he told me to make longer appointment soon, he suggested me to do

Metabolic Oxidative Profile,

but had no time to go into any detals.
I think it is at Smokies Laboratory, Genova Diagnostics.
They have a number of similar metabolic tests.
Wonder if you, HAN, could pin point which one I want.
At the same time, I think I want to check the 2, 4, 16 Hydroxyestrones, (possibly other stuff).
Again there is few similar tests that the ofer,
would you please tell me which one I want.

Exact name of test and link to it.

Thank you.

THis just checks estrogen metabolism
Genova Diagnostics EstroEssence

Estroessence complete checks all hormones and e metabolism
Thats the one thats the main one !!

http://www.gdx.net/home/images/reportpdf/detox.pdf

As i said again
Methylation --> improved production of serotonin precursors in liver (methyl transferases) ---> decreased depression, potential upregulation of 5 HT receptors, ---> increased sertonin--> improved TRH/TSH --> improved thyroxine production and receptor upregulation ----> improved energy efficiency

 

[anyman]

Update: Post start of 1000iu of hcg and the "NeuroScience" products.

Been on 1000iu of hcg 3x/week for the last 1+ week at the direction of Dr S (recall 500iu did nothing-this is one last shot of "kickstarting" things) as well as the "Neuroscience" products designed to help with adrenal function and raising serotonin, etc.

Although the placebo effect is possible, I definitely notice an improvement, especially in mood. Erections have been a bit better as well. I had blood drawn after only 1 week on the 1000iu as I have a follow up consult this coming week and wanted results by then. It'll be interesting to see what is happening when I get them back. Maybe I'll get lucky and the higher hcg will get what natural abilities I have left going again. I very much suspect that extrenal T cannot be avoided, but at least so far I am sensing a definite improvement. Assuming theie is a boost, I wonder how long one can safely stay on 1000iu 3x/week. That and any changes I leave to Dr S, but welcome input and comments in the interim.

 

[JanSz]

Been on 1000iu of hcg 3x/week for the last 1+ week at the direction of Dr S (recall 500iu did nothing-this is one last shot of "kickstarting" things) as well as the "Neuroscience" products designed to help with adrenal function and raising serotonin, etc.

Although the placebo effect is possible, I definitely notice an improvement, especially in mood. Erections have been a bit better as well. I had blood drawn after only 1 week on the 1000iu as I have a follow up consult this coming week and wanted results by then. It'll be interesting to see what is happening when I get them back. Maybe I'll get lucky and the higher hcg will get what natural abilities I have left going again. I very much suspect that extrenal T cannot be avoided, but at least so far I am sensing a definite improvement. Assuming theie is a boost, I wonder how long one can safely stay on 1000iu 3x/week. That and any changes I leave to Dr S, but welcome input and comments in the interim.

Repeat:
wonder how long one can safely stay on 1000iu 3x/week.
So what are you actualy gaining by doing this test?

How much time have you already spend doing this research?
When you graduate to Testosterone supplementation,
are you going to also research if transdermals are working in your case?

 

[anyman]

Good questions, JanSz. Allow me to respond

Here we go:

So what are you actualy gaining by doing this test?

Dr Shippen is trying one last time to jump start whatever natural abilities I have left. If I can maintain at least some natural production capacity then I reduce my dependence on external meds, the supply of which is never 100% guaranteed. For example, I wonder how easily the Hurricane Katrina victims were able to find adequate supplies of T

How much time have you already spend doing this research?

Not enough, as I still havn't found a cure.

When you graduate to Testosterone supplementation,
are you going to also research if transdermals are working in your case?

I don't look at TRT as a "graduation". Instead I look at it as confirmation that my body has failed me for whatever reason, thus sentencing me to a lifetime of dependence. This is something I seek to avoid to the extent possible. In any event, I tried Androgel last winter and saw no real effect, although I only tried it for 4-6 weeks in total

It would seem that TRT is now realistically my sole remaining option. All this research and time spent will allow me at least some peace of mind, as it is important to me to have exhausted all options before resorting to it. I still view this whole thing, right or wrong, with a fair amount of embarassment. I'm working on that, however.

 

[JanSz]

Here we go:



It would seem that TRT is now realistically my sole remaining option. All this research and time spent will allow me at least some peace of mind, as it is important to me to have exhausted all options before resorting to it. I still view this whole thing, right or wrong, with a fair amount of embarassment. I'm working on that, however.

I wish you did not have to go thru of what you are going thru to achieve piece of mind.

embarasement ????
you must be kidding, I just hope you do.

If you are not kidding, you possibly have other problems that may need to be addressed.
---------------------------------------------------

https://www.neurorelief.com/

 

[anyman]

I readily admit to no small amount of embarassment (m)

Even though I intellectually understand that this is beyond my control and I did nothing to cause it, I still feel uncomfortable with having to depend of meds to fully be a man. I know this is silly to some, but when I go to the gym and see guys in even better shape than I am breeze through life without having to worry about being emasculated by a rather stupid affliction I get a bit down.

No doubt you ask "Why"? The answer is simple. The most commonly known effects of low T are all sexual in nature--and none of them something to brag about. I am uncomfortable with others knowing or thinking that I might need a little help in the manhood department. I value self reliance to no small extent and don't like dependence of any type or kind.

Over the last few months, however, I have been forced to accpet the fact that sometihng has gone awry in my body. I can either ignore it or work around it, as I am doing. But, before I sentence myself to a lifetime of TRT I need to first make sure that I have first exhausted all other options.

I wish you did not have to go thru of what you are going thru to achieve piece of mind.

embarasement ????
you must be kidding, I just hope you do.

If you are not kidding, you possibly have other problems that may need to be addressed.
---------------------------------------------------

https://www.neurorelief.com/

 

[MarkLA]

Even though I intellectually understand that this is beyond my control and I did nothing to cause it, I still feel uncomfortable with having to depend of meds to fully be a man. I know this is silly to some, but when I go to the gym and see guys in even better shape than I am breeze through life without having to worry about being emasculated by a rather stupid affliction I get a bit down.

No doubt you ask "Why"? The answer is simple. The most commonly known effects of low T are all sexual in nature--and none of them something to brag about. I am uncomfortable with others knowing or thinking that I might need a little help in the manhood department. I value self reliance to no small extent and don't like dependence of any type or kind.

Over the last few months, however, I have been forced to accpet the fact that sometihng has gone awry in my body. I can either ignore it or work around it, as I am doing. But, before I sentence myself to a lifetime of TRT I need to first make sure that I have first exhausted all other options.

IMHO, there's nothing to be embarassed about. We're all here, in this together.

It seems to effect different people differently. I'm in pretty good gym shape, but also have low T. Some of your gym people probably are as well.

It's not just sexual symptoms... depression, motivation, lean mass, mood and confidence are all related to the T level. You may have to educate people on this when you talk to them.

Unless you did a bunch of roids, it's really nothing that you did yourself to cause this so I don't see why you should blame yourself.

As HAN might say, it could be something environmental like xenoestrogens or something.

I also found this article which talks about how stress can decrease T by a different method than reducing LH.

Role played by brainstem neurons in regulating tes...[Endocrinology. 2006] - PubMed Result

To each his own, but I've been up-front with my buddies about it. Only one gave me a hard time about it. (His logic f*** more and your T will go higher, that's all you need. It would be nice if it were true .) A couple of them remarked that it makes sense. I've been unmotivated, not really chasing any girls, disinterested for a while. My buddies are looking forward to when I'm back and tuned-up.

Mark

 

[dcguy4u]

IMHO, there's nothing to be embarassed about. We're all here, in this together.

It seems to effect different people differently. I'm in pretty good gym shape, but also have low T. Some of your gym people probably are as well.

It's not just sexual symptoms... depression, motivation, lean mass, mood and confidence are all related to the T level. You may have to educate people on this when you talk to them.

Unless you did a bunch of roids, it's really nothing that you did yourself to cause this so I don't see why you should blame yourself.

As HAN might say, it could be something environmental like xenoestrogens or something.

I also found this article which talks about how stress can decrease T by a different method than reducing LH.

Role played by brainstem neurons in regulating tes...[Endocrinology. 2006] - PubMed Result

To each his own, but I've been up-front with my buddies about it. Only one gave me a hard time about it. (His logic f*** more and your T will go higher, that's all you need. It would be nice if it were true .) A couple of them remarked that it makes sense. I've been unmotivated, not really chasing any girls, disinterested for a while. My buddies are looking forward to when I'm back and tuned-up.

Mark

I totally buy this. It's nothing to be embarassed about. I will consider myself lucky if TRT fixes my problems. I am only 32 and my problems started when i was in my 30th year. But yeah I look forward to HRT fixing my problems.

 

[JanSz]

Even though I intellectually understand that this is beyond my control and I did nothing to cause it, I still feel uncomfortable with having to depend of meds to fully be a man. I know this is silly to some, but when I go to the gym and see guys in even better shape than I am breeze through life without having to worry about being emasculated by a rather stupid affliction I get a bit down.

No doubt you ask "Why"? The answer is simple. The most commonly known effects of low T are all sexual in nature--and none of them something to brag about. I am uncomfortable with others knowing or thinking that I might need a little help in the manhood department. I value self reliance to no small extent and don't like dependence of any type or kind.

Over the last few months, however, I have been forced to accpet the fact that sometihng has gone awry in my body. I can either ignore it or work around it, as I am doing. But, before I sentence myself to a lifetime of TRT I need to first make sure that I have first exhausted all other options.

How is you project with NeuroScience supplements going?
=============================================
What MarkLA just posted in previous post is very interesting and put new light on sometimes unsuccesfull use of HCG to raise T.

So even your current dose of hcg 1000iu 3x/wk ,
if not fully succesful,
may not be conclusive.
You still cannot exlude possibility that you testis may resume production when neurotransmitters are properly tweaked (by supplements from NeuroScience ?).
=============================================
Role played by brainstem neurons in regulating testosterone secretion via a direct neural pathway between the hypothalamus and the testes.

We previously reported anatomical and functional evidence for a direct, inhibitory neural pathway that regulates testosterone (T) secretion independently of the pituitary. This pathway is activated by the intracerebroventricular (icv) administration of agents that stimulate stress responses, such as IL-1beta, corticotropin-releasing factor (CRF), and norepinephrine (NE), which results in a blunted T response to the administration of human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG).

 

[hardasnails1973]

IN next 10 years estrogen and metabolic testng will be standard medical practice. More and more i reearch about estrogens scarey it is and people are not even aware of it..

Point being
1 . mom my had cancer and low thyroid
2. brother has MS
3. DAD has diabetes low testosterone
4 .GOd knows WTF I have drs can not figure out - but my blood test are identical to my mom that what scares me

We all got diagnosed the same time !!

Common factor we drank from same plastic bottles for prolong peroid of time which we went to the farm and got water each week with for 4-5 years. I kept telling my mom water tastes different. I find that a little coincidental don't you think?

 

[anyman]

Noticeable improvement since starting the neuroscience and 1000iu of hcg

What is responsible remains to be seen. Whether it's the increased levels of hcg or neuroscience products I have no idea. I do know,however, that my moods and overall demeanor have been noticeably improved. Even my performance at the gym seemed a bit better. Who knows, maybe the placebo effect is at work.

I was VERY nervous when going from 500 to 1000iu, since I was greeted by a never before experienced depression soon after starting 500. So far (fingers crossed), so good.

 

[hardasnails1973]

What is responsible remains to be seen. Whether it's the increased levels of hcg or neuroscience products I have no idea. I do know,however, that my moods and overall demeanor have been noticeably improved. Even my performance at the gym seemed a bit better. Who knows, maybe the placebo effect is at work.

I was VERY nervous when going from 500 to 1000iu, since I was greeted by a never before experienced depression soon after starting 500. So far (fingers crossed), so good.

Is he tested your e2 and T every 2 weeks to make sure it stays in check. Ok here is my point your doing some thing for 2 months and then you feel good but by 3 rd month you feel like crap then its back to the daring board again. If 1000 3 times a week works great but how do you know this is going to be steady and not drop after another 2 months. I like a cut and dry explaination.

1. if its adrenals/thyroid correct it
2. if estrogen metabolism is altered then protocol to correct it
3. if my adrenalsthyroid are fine then give me testosterone and then later hcg and monitor e2 add armidex if neccessary
4. if my brain is out of balance - identify
5. if I have intestinal dybosis - give me a protocol

I do not like to used for a lab rat so to speak

Again it comes down to gut brain liver as priomary cause of hormonal imbalances. There is actually a way to jump start hypothalmamus through IP3 pathway.

My method to handling problem I start at cellular level and work up
1. ideintify metabolic road blocks - toxins ect use organic acids test
2. mineral and nutrient imbalances - hair spectracell testing, urine amino, ect
3. gut function - leaky gut, SMall bactrial overgrowth, candida, WTF ever
4. Liver pathway ways - 5 of them
5 adrenal/thyroid/tesotsterone

From organic acids testing, urine amino , adrenal salvia there is a wealth of information

 

[JanSz]

Is he tested your e2 and T every 2 weeks to make sure it stays in check. Ok here is my point your doing some thing for 2 months and then you feel good but by 3 rd month you feel like crap then its back to the daring board again. If 1000 3 times a week works great but how do you know this is going to be steady and not drop after another 2 months. I like a cut and dry explaination.

1. if its adrenals/thyroid correct it
2. if estrogen metabolism is altered then protocol to correct it
3. if my adrenalsthyroid are fine then give me testosterone and then later hcg and monitor e2 add armidex if neccessary
4. if my brain is out of balance - identify
5. if I have intestinal dybosis - give me a protocol

I do not like to used for a lab rat so to speak

Again it comes down to gut brain liver as priomary cause of hormonal imbalances. There is actually a way to jump start hypothalmamus through IP3 pathway.

My method to handling problem I start at cellular level and work up
1. ideintify metabolic road blocks - toxins ect use organic acids test
2. mineral and nutrient imbalances - hair spectracell testing, urine amino, ect
3. gut function - leaky gut, SMall bactrial overgrowth, candida, WTF ever
4. Liver pathway ways - 5 of them
5 adrenal/thyroid/tesotsterone

From organic acids testing, urine amino , adrenal salvia there is a wealth of information

Have you did hair analysis?
What do you think about it?

I had it done once in 2004
by Trace Elements inc.
http://www.traceelements.com/Graph.pdf

I noted that Genova have
http://www.gdx.net/images/reportpdf/elemental.pdf
Elemental Analysis of hair, urine, or blood

 

[hardasnails1973]

Have you did hair analysis?
What do you think about it?

I had it done once in 2004
by Trace Elements inc.
http://www.traceelements.com/Graph.pdf

I noted that Genova have
http://www.gdx.net/images/reportpdf/elemental.pdf
Elemental Analysis of hair, urine, or blood

Hair analysis predicted every thing to a T and was backed up by spectracell testing, Serum testing did not catch abnomalities. There is only one lab that I would use and thats ARL no where else. Other labs do not follow the basis on how the original procedure was used for testing. Most labs
wash their hair. ARL does not

 

[JanSz]

Hair analysis predicted every thing to a T and was backed up by spectracell testing, Serum testing did not catch abnomalities. There is only one lab that I would use and thats ARL no where else. Other labs do not follow the basis on how the original procedure was used for testing. Most labs
wash their hair. ARL does not

http://www.arltma.com/HairAnalysis.htm
Analytical Research Laboratories, Inc. (ARL)

2225 W. Alice Avenue - Phoenix, Arizona 85021 USA
1-602-995-1580




http://www.arltma.com/LabProfile.htm


Profile II - Laboratory Mineral Assay and Comprehensive Interpretation
This profile includes the complete Multi-Element Laboratory Assay provided in Profile I, plus a thorough 15-20 page interpretation that reviews significant mineral levels and ratios and provides pertinent information related to the patient's metabolic rate, energy levels, sugar and carbohydrate tolerance, immune system, glandular activity, autonomic balance, metabolic trends, basic dietary guidelines and a complete dietary supplement program designed to assist in balancing body chemistry. A personalized letter to the health care professional summarizing the test results is included with this profile.

 

[hardasnails1973]

http://www.arltma.com/HairAnalysis.htm
Analytical Research Laboratories, Inc. (ARL)

2225 W. Alice Avenue - Phoenix, Arizona 85021 USA
1-602-995-1580




http://www.arltma.com/LabProfile.htm


Profile II - Laboratory Mineral Assay and Comprehensive Interpretation
This profile includes the complete Multi-Element Laboratory Assay provided in Profile I, plus a thorough 15-20 page interpretation that reviews significant mineral levels and ratios and provides pertinent information related to the patient's metabolic rate, energy levels, sugar and carbohydrate tolerance, immune system, glandular activity, autonomic balance, metabolic trends, basic dietary guidelines and a complete dietary supplement program designed to assist in balancing body chemistry. A personalized letter to the health care professional summarizing the test results is included with this profile.

yep dr can order it for 80 bucks tells pst 3 months

 

[JanSz]

yep dr can order it for 80 bucks tells pst 3 months

Dot you like their pages
11 SUGGESTED VITAMIN AND MINERAL SUPPLEMENT SCHEDULE
12 SUGGESTED AMINO ACID SUPPLEMENT SCHEDULE

http://www.gdx.net/home/images/reportpdf/ONE.pdf

===============================================

HAN
I have a dr's visit comming real soon
and he wants to do this "Metabolic Oxidative Profile"

I usually go FULL BORE on my tests, so
I need to make real good list and you are the one to make sure that it is good list.

If you have a time, lets work on that list.
List must include name of the test and URL to that test.
Looks like other than Hair Analysis the other tests could/should be done at Genova Diagnostics.
----------------------
Hair Tissue Mineral Analysis (HTMA)
Hair Analysis
----------------------
ONE Optimal Nutrition Evaluation
GDX ONE - Optimal Nutrition Evaluation
----------------------
EstroEssence
Genova Diagnostics EstroEssence
----------------------
Comprehensive Digestive Stool Analysis (CDSA)
http://www.gdx.net/home/images/reportpdf/CDSA_2.0.pdf
-----------------------
Detoxification Profile (Comprehensive)
GDX Detoxification Profile Sample Report
-----------------------
Oxidative Stress Profile
GDX Oxidative Stress Analysis
--------------------------
Essential and Metabolic Fatty Acids
GDX Essential and Metabolic Fatty Acids Assessment
-------------------------
Comprehensive Cardiovascular Assessment
GDX Comprehensive Cardiovascular Assessment Application Guide
-------------------------
Adrenocortex Stress Profile
GDX Adrenocortex Stress Profile Application Guide
--------------------------------------


OK;
That is a lots of tests.
Some of the tests may be bundles by GDX and therefore repetitive.
Some may be indicated when some specific complaits are present.
You are the expert, go at it, take out some, add some.
Remember that once/year I am doing my long blood test so I do not need to be repetitive in my testing, unless justified.

.
.If you happen to know prices for some of these tests, please add them on.
.

 

[SufferingEd]

Even though I intellectually understand that this is beyond my control and I did nothing to cause it, I still feel uncomfortable with having to depend of meds to fully be a man. I know this is silly to some, but when I go to the gym and see guys in even better shape than I am breeze through life without having to worry about being emasculated by a rather stupid affliction I get a bit down.
No doubt you ask "Why"? The answer is simple. The most commonly known effects of low T are all sexual in nature--and none of them something to brag about. I am uncomfortable with others knowing or thinking that I might need a little help in the manhood department. I value self reliance to no small extent and don't like dependence of any type or kind.

Over the last few months, however, I have been forced to accpet the fact that sometihng has gone awry in my body. I can either ignore it or work around it, as I am doing. But, before I sentence myself to a lifetime of TRT I need to first make sure that I have first exhausted all other options.

Do not be embarresed man. I am sure some if not a lot of those guys are on some type of medication, TRT, ect, and are in the gym to help emprove their health. It sucks getting older, last year I was taking nothing no meds what so ever. Always prided my self on being in such good health. Today, I am on Testim for Low T, Cialis for erections, a multi vitamin for over all health, fish oil, zinc , protein, and creatine. I get upset by all that I am taking, yet I feel good, and I am enjoying life and this is what matters most. Take it easy, get your meds right, and get back to enjoying life. Good Luck.

 

[jaydee]

To add to Suffering Ed's post, you dont really know if all of those guys you see at the gym ARE really healthy or not. You might be surprised at how many people out there look fine, but are actually hiding an illness or other problem.

I reckon your being too hard on yourself regarding your meds. There are HEAPS of guys in there 20's who have to take T these days for all kinds of reasons.....its modern living - drugs, lifestyle, diet, environment......its all part of life.

 

[anyman]

Post 1000iu HCG 3x/week update: Some improvements and a dosage boost

Update for those that might be interested:

Dr S started me first with 500iu of HCG 3x/week and I saw pretty much nothing. Barely budged from a T level of 200 to all of 224 (whoa--- I thought I was cured!).

The next step was to go to 1000iu 3x/week. Due to scheduling I tested after only 3 injections or so over 9 days or so. This time I did see a change--from 200 t0 371. But--Estradiol went from under 32 to about 44. That explains why I havn't felt all that much better. At least I know my testes can do something! Damned E2......

Dr S is still trying to shock them (and me) into working a bit better. He has directed me to go to 1500iu for 3x/week and retest after 2-3 weeks. Based on my results, I expect E to possibly go higher, which may trigger unpleasant results. If that does happen, I'll call him ASAP.

Yes, I know that some here are pushing me to go faster, but I am going to go along with his recommendations and see how much--if any-- of my natural production I can re-stimulate and save. The less I dependent I am, the better, even if this process takes longer than I like and delays my feeling better sooner. He assures me that 1500iu 3x/wk for 2-3 weeks after 2 weeks at 1000 and another 4-5 wks at 500iu will be fine.

Any comments? Concerns? Other issues? As always, all are welcome and appreciated.

 

[JanSz]

Update for those that might be interested:

Dr S started me first with 500iu of HCG 3x/week and I saw pretty much nothing. Barely budged from a T level of 200 to all of 224 (whoa--- I thought I was cured!).

The next step was to go to 1000iu 3x/week. Due to scheduling I tested after only 3 injections or so over 9 days or so. This time I did see a change--from 200 t0 371. But--Estradiol went from under 32 to about 44. That explains why I havn't felt all that much better. At least I know my testes can do something! Damned E2......

Dr S is still trying to shock them (and me) into working a bit better. He has directed me to go to 1500iu for 3x/week and retest after 2-3 weeks. Based on my results, I expect E to possibly go higher, which may trigger unpleasant results. If that does happen, I'll call him ASAP.

Yes, I know that some here are pushing me to go faster, but I am going to go along with his recommendations and see how much--if any-- of my natural production I can re-stimulate and save. The less I dependent I am, the better, even if this process takes longer than I like and delays my feeling better sooner. He assures me that 1500iu 3x/wk for 2-3 weeks after 2 weeks at 1000 and another 4-5 wks at 500iu will be fine.

Any comments? Concerns? Other issues? As always, all are welcome and appreciated.

dr Delgado would like your TT to be at 1200
how are you going to get there?
=================================
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/male-anti-aging/70897-guest-lecturer-ii-6.html#post991716
I will also suggest that aging is going to include a decline of hormones,
within genetic differences, expect to augment back Testosterone,
I keep mime and my clients under doctors monitoring,
around 1000 to 1,200 ng/ml Total T,
and Free T at upper range of 200 to 300 (or 20 to 40 pg/mldepending on the nomenclature)
Aldosterone is best at 10 to 40 ug/24 hr,
IGF-1 around 250 to 400 ng/ml.
DHT 60 to 70 ng/dl,
DHEA 300 ug/dl,
insulin under 5,
SHBG 10 to 30 nmol/l,
Estradiol 35 pg/ml,
with about 20 (2OHE) to 1 -16aOHE.

 

[anyman]

Dr S does not beleive I need to be anywhere near that high (m)

dr Delgado would like your TT to be at 1200. How are you going to get there?

I don't think I'll ever get there. Based on my lab results, Dr S feels that I may be good at 600-700 due to my lower shbg and theoretical easier ability to get greater free T.

If I had to guess, he is not trying to get me up to full levels with hcg alone, but is instead trying to jump start what natural production capacity I still have so as to increase and preserve it. I have little doubt that supplemental T will eventually be introduced, probably sooner than later. But, I want to preserve what I have and reduce the degree to which I become dependent, at least to the extent possible.

 

[plymouth city]

1200TT is crazy high

Most teenagers don't have TT that high

Some of Dr Delgados stuff is a bit wacky

 

[anyman]

I agree that 1200 is way too high. In fact, I'll bet that is close to steroid levels.

1200TT is crazy high

Most teenagers don't have TT that high

Some of Dr Delgados stuff is a bit wacky

I do not know this Delgado guy, but even to my uneducated eyes 1200 seems way too high. I can't imagine Dr J getting guys there lest he suddenly desire to put his license at risk.

Me? I'm just trying to resolve this the best I can, even if the "right" way takes longer. I can't imagine how trying to preserve, expand and protect my natural capacities is a bad thing. It might not work, but I must at least try. External T would be the fastest and easiest--but not necessarily the best in the long run. I don't doubt that I'll be there-and often wish I was already, but don't want to rush and will allow Dr S to do his thing. It's likely safe to assume he knows far mor than I do and has greater experience many times over.

 

[plymouth city]

I have seen tons of BW from healthy teenagers/young adults 18 - 25

Most have TT levels 600 - 800
FT mid 20's
E2 low 20's

 

[plymouth city]

Hang tight anyman

Does the Dr have you on a good, natural and non synthetic form ov Vitamin E?

Vit E increases Leydig cell sensitivity, something someone in your shoes wants.

I like carlsons