Anyman's personal journal: May it help me and others to follow

[anyman]

Nope- No Vitamin E. He suggests "Pure" brand vitamin D, but that's it. (m)

Hang tight anyman

Does the Dr have you on a good, natural and non synthetic form ov Vitamin E?

Vit E increases Leydig cell sensitivity, something someone in your shoes wants.

I like carlsons

I'll have to look into "Carlson's". Got any favorite suppliers? I wonder if it's available locally. I do take an "E" supp every other day, but it's a generic store brand. Didn't know there was a difference.

I know some here think I'm nuts (slight pun intended) for letting this go on so long, but I am convinced that rushing is a bad idea. If there is even a modest chance of recovering some of my former self I have to at least try. At almost 44 yrs of age I could have 40 more years on meds if I'm not careful. Why not minimize this to the extent possible? If I can't trust Dr S then who can I trust and why I am paying him out of pocket?

While I trust the Dr, I do like to do my own research and verify. This is why I value the thoughts and opinions of those here, even if they think I'm dragging my feet. While I trust Dr S, I take what I learn here and combine it. For example, I asked if his suggestion of 1500iu of hcg 3x/week might possibly be a bit strong. He reassured me and said to do it for only 3 weeks and then retest. Looks like he is trying to do a jump start of the Leydig cells. I still wonder what'll happen if that works. Will the hcg then just shut down the H and P parts of the HPTA?

 

[plymouth city]

I'll have to look into "Carlson's". Got any favorite suppliers? I wonder if it's available locally. I do take an "E" supp every other day, but it's a generic store brand. Didn't know there was a difference.

I know some here think I'm nuts (slight pun intended) for letting this go on so long, but I am convinced that rushing is a bad idea. If there is even a modest chance of recovering some of my former self I have to at least try. At almost 44 yrs of age I could have 40 more years on meds if I'm not careful. Why not minimize this to the extent possible? If I can't trust Dr S then who can I trust and why I am paying him out of pocket?

While I trust the Dr, I do like to do my own research and verify. This is why I value the thoughts and opinions of those here, even if they think I'm dragging my feet. While I trust Dr S, I take what I learn here and combine it. For example, I asked if his suggestion of 1500iu of hcg 3x/week might possibly be a bit strong. He reassured me and said to do it for only 3 weeks and then retest. Looks like he is trying to do a jump start of the Leydig cells. I still wonder what'll happen if that works. Will the hcg then just shut down the H and P parts of the HPTA?

Do not be so quick to jump to HRT.

I like the approach.

Your right, you might be stuck for awile if you do.

The way current technology is going another 40 years might be a very conservative guess, you might be looking at 60 or more.

I like betterhealthfoods, its free shipping over 50 bucks, can't beat that.

Yes, you need natural, not synthetic vitamin E. The store brand you have is probably useless.

http://www.thebetterhealthstore.com/index.asp

 

[Scottyo]

better health store is a bit pricey though. i like iherb and vitacost. vitacost has the cheapest carlson's fish oil i found...and their NSI brand supps (like b vitamins) are excelletnly priced and well-formulated.

iherb is great...and great shipping options and times too (as wel as price).

 

[jaydee]

I'll have to look into "Carlson's". Got any favorite suppliers? I wonder if it's available locally. I do take an "E" supp every other day, but it's a generic store brand. Didn't know there was a difference.

I know some here think I'm nuts (slight pun intended) for letting this go on so long, but I am convinced that rushing is a bad idea. If there is even a modest chance of recovering some of my former self I have to at least try. At almost 44 yrs of age I could have 40 more years on meds if I'm not careful. Why not minimize this to the extent possible? If I can't trust Dr S then who can I trust and why I am paying him out of pocket?

While I trust the Dr, I do like to do my own research and verify. This is why I value the thoughts and opinions of those here, even if they think I'm dragging my feet. While I trust Dr S, I take what I learn here and combine it. For example, I asked if his suggestion of 1500iu of hcg 3x/week might possibly be a bit strong. He reassured me and said to do it for only 3 weeks and then retest. Looks like he is trying to do a jump start of the Leydig cells. I still wonder what'll happen if that works. Will the hcg then just shut down the H and P parts of the HPTA?

I wonder why 1500IU and not 500IU. Has he mentioned going any higher than 1500 if it doesnt work?

What has he said about the propecia use?

 

[anyman]

We didn't start at 1500iu. We started at 500, went to 1000 and now 1500.

I wonder why 1500IU and not 500IU. Has he mentioned going any higher than 1500 if it doesnt work?

What has he said about the propecia use?

From discussions with others it appears as though this is something new. I suspect he is trying to jumpstart things with an escalating series of doses. He only decides what to do after bloodwork, so I won't know more for another 3-4 weeks after I've been on it for a bit.

I am anxioous to move things along and feel more like my old self, but want to give this time to work and see where it goes.

As for propecia, he said it is possible, even though it was for only a month or so and several years ago. There is no way to know for sure. I suspect it is a factor, however.

 

[JanSz]

I don't think I'll ever get there. Based on my lab results, Dr S feels that I may be good at 600-700 due to my lower shbg and theoretical easier ability to get greater free T.
If I had to guess, he is not trying to get me up to full levels with hcg alone, but is instead trying to jump start what natural production capacity I still have so as to increase and preserve it. I have little doubt that supplemental T will eventually be introduced, probably sooner than later. But, I want to preserve what I have and reduce the degree to which I become dependent, at least to the extent possible.

I think you right, the TotalT is only intermediate indicator, the bottom line is FreeT.

dr Shippen may be ok with someone natural having freeT=160
but when supplying external T there is no reason of not going for FreeT~250

dr Delgado goes little higher, 300.

note that higher FreeT and watchng 2/16 ratio allows him to have e2~35, which is higher then usually talked here.

all together higher amount of hormones in the body.

 

[jaydee]

From discussions with others it appears as though this is something new. I suspect he is trying to jumpstart things with an escalating series of doses.

Yea, I would just love to know the science behind doing it this way. How does it "jumpstart" your HPTA and why such a high dose to do it? Perhaps its just "the way its done"...I dont know. Obviously it stimulates your Leydig cells but I want to know more about how this works.

 

[anyman]

I don't know if it will jumpstart the full HPTA so much as get the Leydig cells going

Yea, I would just love to know the science behind doing it this way. How does it "jumpstart" your HPTA and why such a high dose to do it? Perhaps its just "the way its done"...I dont know. Obviously it stimulates your Leydig cells but I want to know more about how this works.

This is something I need to ask Dr Shippen when I talk to him next. He is well known and respected, so I'll give his suggestions a try.

 

[dcguy4u]

Dr Shippen is very conservative when it comes to putting T in bodies of younger men. He told me, that's always his last option. He tries to recover HPTA first , if at all it can be done.
This way he also tries to figure out if low T is actually the cause of problems by increasing T with means that doesnt shutdown your HPTA axis.

HRT shouldnt be rushed.

 

[JanSz]

Dr Shippen is very conservative when it comes to putting T in bodies of younger men. He told me, that's always his last option. He tries to recover HPTA first , if at all it can be done.
This way he also tries to figure out if low T is actually the cause of problems by increasing T with means that doesnt shutdown your HPTA axis.

HRT shouldnt be rushed.

If only there was a way to know the succes rate for both
the HPTA
and
testicles

from the posts so far it looks like waste of time.

 

[anyman]

I must disagree that an attempt to restore the HPTA is a "waste of time".

If only there was a way to know the succes rate for both
the HPTA
and
testicles

from the posts so far it looks like waste of time.

I've only been with Dr S for under 2 months. It would be unrealistic to expect a full resolution in so short a time, especially since I have to wait 2-3 weeks between bloodwork to see what effects progessive changes and adjustments have made, if any.

I'd rather take an incremental and more cautious approach seeing as how certain choices, like full TRT, cannot be easily undone. I suspect I will indeed have to incorporate TRT at some point, but wish to minimize my dependency to the extent possible and for as long as possible. Even if these steps fail and full TRT becomes my only option then I can sleep better knowing I at least tried.

 

[JanSz]

I've only been with Dr S for under 2 months. It would be unrealistic to expect a full resolution in so short a time, especially since I have to wait 2-3 weeks between bloodwork to see what effects progessive changes and adjustments have made, if any.

I'd rather take an incremental and more cautious approach seeing as how certain choices, like full TRT, cannot be easily undone. I suspect I will indeed have to incorporate TRT at some point, but wish to minimize my dependency to the extent possible and for as long as possible. Even if these steps fail and full TRT becomes my only option then I can sleep better knowing I at least tried.

Good night sleep is very important. (no joke)

 

[anyman]

Another update: Looks like TRT is unavoidable. Damn....

It's been awhile, so here is an update for those who care and those who may use my experiences to help themselves.

Over the last 2 1/2 months I've been on hcg alone. Started at 500iu, then 1000 and, finally, 1500. All were 3x/week. During this time T went from 190-200 to 523. Unfortunately, E rose as well, from under 32 to a solid 75. Ouch.....

Still feeling like crap much of the time I knew we needed to try more. At least Dr S tried to restart me to the extent possible. He did state that prolonged exposure to hcg may, over the next few years, result in additional recovery of my Leydig cells. I can only hope....

Our new protocol will be .6ml T cyp once per week and 300iu of hcg on 2 consecutive nights 5 nights later. We'll try this for a few weeks and see how it goes and what adjustments may be needed.

It's been a long road so far. I'm looking forward to feeling a but better. That'd be nice.

 

[T800]

anyman: I think the new protocol will work out better for you, but it's good to see that your leydig cells did respond.

What is Dr S planning to use for Estrogen control (if needed) ?

Sonny

 

[anyman]

He is hoping that pure T may cause E to lower on it's own. If not (m)

anyman: I think the new protocol will work out better for you, but it's good to see that your leydig cells did respond.

What is Dr S planning to use for Estrogen control (if needed) ?

Sonny

then "we'll address that at the time". At least we got the leydig cells to work a bit more. Perhaps over time they'll do even better at lower doses of hcg. I try the new regimen for 3 weeks or so and then re-test.

 

[T800]

When do you start?

Sonny

 

[anyman]

I'll start as soon as the scripts are here and I can get them filled.

When do you start?

Sonny

I imagine it'll be a week or so, maybe more. Not thrilled with a lifetime of TRT, but what realistic other choices are there?

 

[hardasnails1973]

I imagine it'll be a week or so, maybe more. Not thrilled with a lifetime of TRT, but what realistic other choices are there?

I'm glad to see hes is taking an agressive approach because I bet he does read these boards about comments people due make that he tries restart hpta access which is good but in mean time people have to sit around and wait to feel half better. If tinkering around with hpta does not show signs after 2-3 months of it moving any where then next option is what he suggested instead of waiting 6 months to a year mean while the person has a life and needs to lve it..

 

[TiredOldFart]

It's been awhile, so here is an update for those who care and those who may use my experiences to help themselves.

Over the last 2 1/2 months I've been on hcg alone. Started at 500iu, then 1000 and, finally, 1500. All were 3x/week. During this time T went from 190-200 to 523. Unfortunately, E rose as well, from under 32 to a solid 75. Ouch.....

Still feeling like crap much of the time I knew we needed to try more. At least Dr S tried to restart me to the extent possible. He did state that prolonged exposure to hcg may, over the next few years, result in additional recovery of my Leydig cells. I can only hope....

Our new protocol will be .6ml T cyp once per week and 300iu of hcg on 2 consecutive nights 5 nights later. We'll try this for a few weeks and see how it goes and what adjustments may be needed.

It's been a long road so far. I'm looking forward to feeling a but better. That'd be nice.

I'm wondering if you would do okay with your current HCG dose and add arimidex to bring E2 back down. Perhaps the E2 is causing the melancholy you report. Going from 200 to 523 seems like a decent response. Does this response improve through time as leydig cells are stimulated?

 

[JanSz]

It's been awhile, so here is an update for those who care and those who may use my experiences to help themselves.

Over the last 2 1/2 months I've been on hcg alone. Started at 500iu, then 1000 and, finally, 1500. All were 3x/week. During this time T went from 190-200 to 523. Unfortunately, E rose as well, from under 32 to a solid 75. Ouch.....

Still feeling like crap much of the time I knew we needed to try more. At least Dr S tried to restart me to the extent possible. He did state that prolonged exposure to hcg may, over the next few years, result in additional recovery of my Leydig cells. I can only hope....

Our new protocol will be .6ml T cyp once per week and 300iu of hcg on 2 consecutive nights 5 nights later. We'll try this for a few weeks and see how it goes and what adjustments may be needed.

It's been a long road so far. I'm looking forward to feeling a but better. That'd be nice.

My suggestion:
with all that you are doing per dr Shippen's advice,
make sure that you have good and frequent testing, blood and urine.
Once every 2-3 months, until you stabilize.
At the minimum do these at Quest, blood drawn at Quest day of the shot, time of the shot, before shot.

40 T3, Free
43 T4, Free
54 DHEA sulfate
55 Prolactin
58 Progesterone, LC/MS/MS
59 Pregnenolone
60 Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
63 Estrogens, Fractionated, LC/MS/MS (36742X)
67 Estrogen, Total, Serum (439X)
68 Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
74 Dihydrotestosterone, Free, Serum (36168X)

Ask him to include descriptions as written,
they forces the tests to be done per lattest Quest's technology at their specialized labs.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your goal

40 T3, Free 420 (230-420) pg/dL
43 T4, Free 1.8 (0.8-1.8) ng/dL
54 DHEA sulfate 95 (25-95) mcg/dL
55 Prolactin 3 (2.0-18.0) ng/dL
58 Progesterone, LC/MS/MS 0.8 (<1.4) ng/mL
59 Pregnenolone 100 (10-200) ng/dL
60 Estradiol, Free, LC/MS/MS (36169X)
61 /------------------------------------Estradiol, Free 0.45 (< or = 0.45) pg/mL
62 /------------------------------------Estradiol, Free % (1.25-1.85) %
63 /------------------------------------Estradiol (< or =29) pg/mL
64 Estrogens, Fractionated, LC/MS/MS (36742X)
65 /------------------------------------Estrone, serum (< or =68) pg/mL
66 /------------------------------------Estradiol, serum (<or=29) pg/mL
67 /------------------------------------Estriol (0.2 or less) ng/mL
68 Estrogen, Total, Serum (439X) (<130) pg/mL
69 Testosterone, Free, Bio/Total (LC/MS/MS)
70 /------------------------------------ (250-1100) ng/dL Testosterone Total
71 /------------------------------------ 250 (46-224) pg/mL Testosterone Free
72 /------------------------------------ 575 (110-575) ng/dL Testosterone Bioavailable
73 /------------------------------------ (17-54) nmol/L SHBG
74 /------------------------------------ (3.6-5.1) g/dL Albumin, serum
75 Dihydrotestosterone, Free, Serum (36168X)
76 /------------------------------------ (25-75 ) ng/dL Dihydrotestosterone
77 /------------------------------------ 6.2 (1.00-6.20) pg/mL Dihydrotestosterone, FREE
78 /------------------------------------ (0.62-1.10) % Dihydrotestosterone, FREE %
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Get Estroessence from Genova Diagnostics (urine)

I suggest that you take (do not change) your weekly 0.6cc dose of testosterone and use E3D schedule. =0.6/7*3=26 units on syringe
Take your HCG shots either at the time of T shot (that is what I do, or day before.
When adjusting your T dose, goal is FreeT=250 (dr Delgado 300)
You are in need of Arimidex, it is small pill hard to adjust dose.
Use Liquidex, start with 0.5cc (measured with syringe, not a dropper), E3D schedule, take at the time of the shots.
Adjust Liquidex using as a goal (Estradiol, Free=0.45)

Use Estroessence (14 datapints) to dose your
DualAction
TMG
Calcium Glutharate
Resveratrol

Use prescribed compounded pregnenolone cream.

Use DHEAcomplete (from LEF) and other supplements suggested there, add their plain DHEA as need.


If you need, Use Armour Thyroid and Synthroid. Experiment, after you reach 2grains of Armour, start adding Synthroid.
The more your body is able convert T4-->T3 the more stable you will be.

Use Cialis 2x/week

Use subQ shots around navel for both T & hcg, 30ga 1/2" long needle

Good luck;
Keep us posted on your progress.

 

[anyman]

Couldn't stay at 1500iu forever- too high a dose and risks burnout.

I'm wondering if you would do okay with your current HCG dose and add arimidex to bring E2 back down. Perhaps the E2 is causing the melancholy you report. Going from 200 to 523 seems like a decent response. Does this response improve through time as leydig cells are stimulated?

The main reason he didn't keep me at 1500 is that it is too high a dose for long term use due to the risk of permanent testicular burnout. He is of the opinion that I just wasn't responding enough and realized that after 2 1/2 months of effort I'd need too much hcg and too much E control to keep levels high enough.

 

[anyman]

Update: Started T cyp. Now past the 2nd shot and I feel no different.

Here's an update for those who care, are interested or can offer suggestions.

After 2 1/2 months of hcg alone Dr S decided that T levels just weren't high enough (took 1500iu 3x/wk just to get to 523) and E jumped up to 75. Can't take that much hcg forever, nor can one have E levels that high, so the decision was made for me. We started .6ml of T cyp (100mg) 1x/week injected on a sub-q basis a little over a week ago. Just had the 2nd shot last night. I know some here advocate much more, but he likes to start slow and work up. I'll respect his instructions, since to do otherwise could jeopardize my standing as a patient.

OK, it may be a bit early to expect much, but here I am a day past the 2nd shot and I feel no different. Still tired, still crabby and all too often mentally "down". Not exactly what I was hoping for.

Anyone out there with similar experience? Any suggestions or comments?

 

[JanSz]

Here's an update for those who care, are interested or can offer suggestions.

After 2 1/2 months of hcg alone Dr S decided that T levels just weren't high enough (took 1500iu 3x/wk just to get to 523) and E jumped up to 75. Can't take that much hcg forever, nor can one have E levels that high, so the decision was made for me. We started .6ml of T cyp (100mg) 1x/week injected on a sub-q basis a little over a week ago. Just had the 2nd shot last night. I know some here advocate much more, but he likes to start slow and work up. I'll respect his instructions, since to do otherwise could jeopardize my standing as a patient.

OK, it may be a bit early to expect much, but here I am a day past the 2nd shot and I feel no different. Still tired, still crabby and all too often mentally "down". Not exactly what I was hoping for.

Anyone out there with similar experience? Any suggestions or comments?

Right now you are just marking a time.

Make assesment when you reach:
FreeT~250 -300
FreeE2~0.45 (and host of other estrogens)
FreeT3 top of range
FreeT4 close to the top

And also there is about 75-100 of other (common) indicators that you may need to look into.

At least change to E3D schedule.

 

[dcguy4u]

Right now you are just marking a time.

You are a very wise man Jansz

 

[anyman]

Your suggestions are good, but I cannot yet go against Dr. S's instructions

Considering his reputation and more, I am not sure going against his advice is a good idea, at least at this early stage.

Right now you are just marking a time.

Make assesment when you reach:
FreeT~250 -300
FreeE2~0.45 (and host of other estrogens)
FreeT3 top of range
FreeT4 close to the top

And also there is about 75-100 of other (common) indicators that you may need to look into.

At least change to E3D schedule.

Considering his reputation and more, I am not sure going against his advice is a good idea, at least at this early stage. I have dealt with him enough to know that he expects his patients to at least try his plan for awhile and follow instructions. I like what you say, however, and will specifically mention it when I speak to him next. Thank you.

 

[JanSz]

Right now you are just marking a time.

Make assesment when you reach:
FreeT~250 -300
FreeE2~0.45 (and host of other estrogens)
FreeT3 top of range
FreeT4 close to the top

And also there is about 75-100 of other (common) indicators that you may need to look into.

At least change to E3D schedule.

Considering his reputation and more, I am not sure going against his advice is a good idea, at least at this early stage.




Considering his reputation and more, I am not sure going against his advice is a good idea, at least at this early stage. I have dealt with him enough to know that he expects his patients to at least try his plan for awhile and follow instructions. I like what you say, however, and will specifically mention it when I speak to him next. Thank you.

Do me a favor.
Copy my previus post and show it to him.
Report back his reaction.
------------------------------------------
Doctors observe patients personality and asses their goals if not spelled ot right.
If you want easy going do little treatment, that is what you are going to get.
If you tell him to be more pro-active, that is what you will get.

.

 

[anyman]

My biggest complaints? The never ending fatigue and mild depression. Why? What to do?

More than anything else the near constant fatigue, feelings of low energy and almost constant mild depression & irritability are the biggest annoyances.

Are these typically symptoms of low T, which one might assume should be a little better after 1 1/2 weeks on t cyp, or might rising E be an issue? Anything else I might be missing? I swear, before I started hcg and now T and hcg I never had any of these issues...... I'll give Dr S time to do his thing as he is remarkably well versed on these issues, but at times I am almost tempted to just stop everything and see where it goes!

Any other ideas or thoughts?

 

[hardasnails1973]

More than anything else the near constant fatigue, feelings of low energy and almost constant mild depression & irritability are the biggest annoyances.

Are these typically symptoms of low T, which one might assume should be a little better after 1 1/2 weeks on t cyp, or might rising E be an issue? Anything else I might be missing? I swear, before I started hcg and now T and hcg I never had any of these issues...... I'll give Dr S time to do his thing as he is remarkably well versed on these issues, but at times I am almost tempted to just stop everything and see where it goes!

Any other ideas or thoughts?

DRs is good but hes not very aggressive in treating e2.
My freind could not stand HCG it put him bed and out of work for a week and half because the estrogen brought on horrible herpes out break. Hes now went to a University of pennn endo cost him 35 bucks (vs the 1000 bucks on shippen)and he just on plain testosterone 100 mgs a week feeling like a new man. It was a no brainer the hcg was driving the aromatse in his body. He stopped the hcg and now just doing testosterone and feels like a million bucks. If you are going to run hcg and test e2 must be closerly monitored and you may want to possible think about pellet implants that may reduce the e2 and make it more manageable with out drugs. Simple solution would be to stop the hcg and run higher testosterone then.6 a week then retest in 4 weeks to see where you are or to run everything and test and hcg and keep it in check with arimidex. Arimdex is a drug and proven to work and is easily monitored herbs are hit an mix and really no clinical blood tests to back them up..

 

[wondering]

I'm jumping in late, so not sure your details but....have you had thorough Thyroid panel...

TSH
Free T3
Free T4
Thyroid antibodies

--------

More than anything else the near constant fatigue, feelings of low energy and almost constant mild depression & irritability are the biggest annoyances.

Are these typically symptoms of low T, which one might assume should be a little better after 1 1/2 weeks on t cyp, or might rising E be an issue? Anything else I might be missing? I swear, before I started hcg and now T and hcg I never had any of these issues...... I'll give Dr S time to do his thing as he is remarkably well versed on these issues, but at times I am almost tempted to just stop everything and see where it goes!

Any other ideas or thoughts?

 

[anyman]

Thanks for the suggestions. We did measure thyroid and discuss the results (m)

The Dr did not rule them out, but thought the values were on the upper mid levels and not the proximate cause. He is well aware of thyroid possibilities, but is much more heavily leaning towards T & E at this point as the primary causes. We'll re-test the full thyroid panel in the future.

Thanks, as always, for the suggestions. Gives me answers, questions to ask the dr and more to research.

I'm jumping in late, so not sure your details but....have you had thorough Thyroid panel...

TSH
Free T3
Free T4
Thyroid antibodies

--------

 

[anyman]

You are right- he is not aggresive. In the short term this can be harder (m)

DRs is good but hes not very aggressive in treating e2.
If you are going to run hcg and test e2 must be closerly monitored and you may want to possible think about pellet implants that may reduce the e2 and make it more manageable with out drugs. Simple solution would be to stop the hcg and run higher testosterone then.6 a week then retest in 4 weeks to see where you are or to run everything and test and hcg and keep it in check with arimidex. Arimdex is a drug and proven to work and is easily monitored herbs are hit an mix and really no clinical blood tests to back them up..

But-- in the long term it may pay off--or so I hope. Softer and more progressive measures can be more easily tweaked and adjusted without long term ill effects. The downside, of course, is that things can take noticeably longer. My philosophy here is "better right than rushed", even though emotionally I am pretty much done with this nonsense.

I am supposed to have blood on 10/24, after the 3rd T shot to see where T, E and DHT, etc are. We'll re-adjust thereafter, or so I am told. E was quite elevated on hcg alone. At 1500iu 3x/week (yes, a high level, but temporary as intended to jump start things) I saw E of 75. Ugh....

 

[hardasnails1973]

But-- in the long term it may pay off--or so I hope. Softer and more progressive measures can be more easily tweaked and adjusted without long term ill effects. The downside, of course, is that things can take noticeably longer. My philosophy here is "better right than rushed", even though emotionally I am pretty much done with this nonsense.

I am supposed to have blood on 10/24, after the 3rd T shot to see where T, E and DHT, etc are. We'll re-adjust thereafter, or so I am told. E was quite elevated on hcg alone. At 1500iu 3x/week (yes, a high level, but temporary as intended to jump start things) I saw E of 75. Ugh....

What you have to consider you have a life and need to get functioning normal and this long term crap is not going to be doing you any good if you do not have a life and job to function at. These long term approaches aint doing you any good now are they and its just more money in there pocket !!
As a patient I do not want to be a freaken lab rat to test things out to see if they work or not. I was a guineua pig for 3 years and i finally got feed up with drs throwing darts at dart board and seeing where it landed next to treat. I took the bull by the horns found a dr that was aggressive with treatment and I am alot better now.

 

[anyman]

Three weeks on T cyp and hcg and I notice.......Nothing

Well, here I am after 3 weeks on .6ml of 100mg T cyp and 300iu hcg 2x/week and I feel no different at all. Still awaiting blood work results, however.

In the interim, Dr S has suggested I raise my regimen to .8ml and 400iu of hcg 2x/week. We'll re-evaluate after Quest decides to finally release the results and he returns from vacation.

I was hoping for more. Kinda anxious to see the blood work when it gets here.......

 

[hardasnails1973]

Well, here I am after 3 weeks on .6ml of 100mg T cyp and 300iu hcg 2x/week and I feel no different at all. Still awaiting blood work results, however.

In the interim, Dr S has suggested I raise my regimen to .8ml and 400iu of hcg 2x/week. We'll re-evaluate after Quest decides to finally release the results and he returns from vacation.

I was hoping for more. Kinda anxious to see the blood work when it gets here.......

If its an e2 problem? Why not check the e2 first before moving to a higher dosage. E2 tests takes 2 days to get back. and if there is an e2 problem he will try chyrsin first which is compounded and mostlikely not convered by insurance were arimidex is a drug and FDA approved. Has he suggested pellets possible as well. If your e2 is that bad then pellets may be in your future. Its good that he is giving you the go ahead with increasing the dosages most drs wouldn't and let you hanging

 

[T800]

My insurance denied coverage of arimidex saying that it wasn't FDA approved for what we use it for (estrogen control). It's only FDA approved for treatment of breast cancer in women. Sucks...it's an expensive drug!

anyman: Thanks for keeping us posted. How does what your feeling now stack up compared to the early and later HCG-only doses?

Sonny

 

[JanSz]

My insurance denied coverage of arimidex saying that it wasn't FDA approved for what we use it for (estrogen control). It's only FDA approved for treatment of breast cancer in women. Sucks...it's an expensive drug!

anyman: Thanks for keeping us posted. How does what your feeling now stack up compared to the early and later HCG-only doses?

Sonny

Use LiquiDex.
Easier life with LiquiDex, any desired dose can be had conveniently.
I do not even mention that it costs less.

 

[anyman]

Wish I could say I felt better. Not at all, unfortunately (m)

anyman: Thanks for keeping us posted. How does what your feeling now stack up compared to the early and later HCG-only doses?

Sonny

Three weeks into the T-cyp/hcg regimen and I feel no better. Still battling more more common than not feelings of being "down" or "blah" and to ever present lack of energy. Libido sucks, pun intended, and intermittent erectile issues persist. Oddly enough, I consistently feel the best mentally as the evening wears on. From 9pm on I actually feel pretty good. Weird.

I must be there for my kids and still force myself to go to the gym and, of course, the office, but what is keenly missing is enjoyment of life. For example, I picked up a new BMW just last week and was not nearly as interested as I was with past ones. I wasn't even going to bother, but it was already ordered and my wife say "Ah- go ahead with it- you'll enjoy it". I'd trade the car and much else for a sense of peace and well being. Can't explain what I can only label as mild-moderate depression. Wife, job, kids and family, etc are all pretty good-- why the "blahs"?? Makes no sense.

At this point I am puzzled, as I really thought that adding T cyp would make a pronounced difference. Perhaps it's not a high enough does (.6ml of 100mg) and/or E2 is out of whack as started to happen when on higher amounts of hcg. Even though I lack the updated blood results Shippen gave me the OK to raise the T dose to .8ml and hcg to approximately 400, up from 300.

I'll know more when the blood work gets in and after Shippen returns from vacation. Figured I'd share with the crew here I my experiences my help others going through the same thing.

 

[JanSz]

Three weeks into the T-cyp/hcg regimen and I feel no better. Still battling more more common than not feelings of being "down" or "blah" and to ever present lack of energy. Libido sucks, pun intended, and intermittent erectile issues persist. Oddly enough, I consistently feel the best mentally as the evening wears on. From 9pm on I actually feel pretty good. Weird.

I must be there for my kids and still force myself to go to the gym and, of course, the office, but what is keenly missing is enjoyment of life. For example, I picked up a new BMW just last week and was not nearly as interested as I was with past ones. I wasn't even going to bother, but it was already ordered and my wife say "Ah- go ahead with it- you'll enjoy it". I'd trade the car and much else for a sense of peace and well being. Can't explain what I can only label as mild-moderate depression. Wife, job, kids and family, etc are all pretty good-- why the "blahs"?? Makes no sense.

At this point I am puzzled, as I really thought that adding T cyp would make a pronounced difference. Perhaps it's not a high enough does (.6ml of 100mg) and/or E2 is out of whack as started to happen when on higher amounts of hcg. Even though I lack the updated blood results Shippen gave me the OK to raise the T dose to .8ml and hcg to approximately 400, up from 300.

I'll know more when the blood work gets in and after Shippen returns from vacation. Figured I'd share with the crew here I my experiences my help others going through the same thing.

You write:
it's not a high enough does (.6ml of 100mg)
------------------------------------
clarify dose.

I think you may have the weaker version of testosterone 100mg/mL
and you are taking 0.6mL=0.6cc once weekly.

If that is so;
you are taking way way to small dose
you are on unfortunate schedule

----------------------------------------------------------
In my case it took, IIRC, about 6-9 months for testosterone to work its way thru and relieve my depression.
At that time I newer heard that there may be connection.

==============================================

You sound like you have figured out nice system, money are coming to you via autopilot.
You may want to consider sponsoring few of unfortunate souls that frequent this board and are trying to pull off TRT without or with minimal testing.

If the last few lines makes you uncomfortable or is offensive, sorry, I may edit it out any time you wish.

 

[anyman]

Thanks, as always, Jan. I suspected that the dose is way too low (m)

You write:
it's not a high enough does (.6ml of 100mg)
------------------------------------
clarify dose.

I think you may have the weaker version of testosterone 100mg/mL
and you are taking 0.6mL=0.6cc once weekly.

If that is so;
you are taking way way to small dose
you are on unfortunate schedule

----------------------------------------------------------
In my case it took, IIRC, about 6-9 months for testosterone to work its way thru and relieve my depression.
At that time I newer heard that there may be connection.

==============================================

You sound like you have figured out nice system, money are coming to you via autopilot.
You may want to consider sponsoring few of unfortunate souls that frequent this board and are trying to pull off TRT without or with minimal testing.

If the last few lines makes you uncomfortable or is offensive, sorry, I may edit it out any time you wish.

But, that 's how Shippen does his thing- a little at a time and gradual changes. In the long run it's likely a good thing, but in the short term a bit frustrating.

BTW, I am far from "wealthy". I am comfortable and have bills, etc like the rest of us. I am, however, generally well disciplined financially and follow an 80-20 philosophy. 80% of my finances are responsible & the rest is for fun. I've always said to have a little fun in case something happens. Looks like it did, although it's not yet fatal. I've got 2 neighbors even worse off. One is around 40 and has an inoperable brain tumor and the other is in her late 30s and just got diagnosed with MS.

 

[JanSz]

But, that 's how Shippen does his thing- a little at a time and gradual changes. In the long run it's likely a good thing, but in the short term a bit frustrating.

BTW, I am far from "wealthy". I am comfortable and have bills, etc like the rest of us. I am, however, generally well disciplined financially and follow an 80-20 philosophy. 80% of my finances are responsible & the rest is for fun. I've always said to have a little fun in case something happens. Looks like it did, although it's not yet fatal. I've got 2 neighbors even worse off. One is around 40 and has an inoperable brain tumor and the other is in her late 30s and just got diagnosed with MS.

It is hard to believe that dr S would tell you to take
60mg testosterone shot once/week.

Just it is too far out of anything that could possibly may help you.

Actually dose like this is harmfull!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Must be misunderstanding.

 

[anyman]

Nope, not a misunderstanding. 60mg is all he wants--for now

It is hard to believe that dr S would tell you to take
60mg testosterone shot once/week.

Just it is too far out of anything that could possibly may help you.

Actually dose like this is harmfull!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Must be misunderstanding.

He is apparently hoping the that higher amounts of hcg may have "jump started" things, thus necessitating a lower amount of T cyp. He is of the opinion that the less artifical T, the better. I tend to share this philosophy, even though it can be (and is now) rather aggravating at times going so slow. He is very, very methodical and believes the less artificial T, the better. If needed he'll boost, but only after running out of all other options.

 

[hardasnails1973]

But, that 's how Shippen does his thing- a little at a time and gradual changes. In the long run it's likely a good thing, but in the short term a bit frustrating.

BTW, I am far from "wealthy". I am comfortable and have bills, etc like the rest of us. I am, however, generally well disciplined financially and follow an 80-20 philosophy. 80% of my finances are responsible & the rest is for fun. I've always said to have a little fun in case something happens. Looks like it did, although it's not yet fatal. I've got 2 neighbors even worse off. One is around 40 and has an inoperable brain tumor and the other is in her late 30s and just got diagnosed with MS.

Have you check surroundings for any chemical plants or refineries for you to have neighbors with MS and other things wrong around you seems alittle peculiar. One girl I worked with even had dogs that were they lived had thyroid issuses that beacuse the petcholate from the fire works place was leaking into the water and people mysterois started to get ill and 4 people ono her blocked died. There was a big cover up and it never leaked out to public. So check your surroundings and business around you ot be sure..

 

[anyman]

An excellent suggestion, HAN. I wonder.... We live in a subdivision that was once (m)

Have you check surroundings for any chemical plants or refineries for you to have neighbors with MS and other things wrong around you seems alittle peculiar. One girl I worked with even had dogs that were they lived had thyroid issuses that beacuse the petcholate from the fire works place was leaking into the water and people mysterois started to get ill and 4 people ono her blocked died. There was a big cover up and it never leaked out to public. So check your surroundings and business around you ot be sure..

An orchard a long time ago, although my home is pretty much where the apple trees met the woods. If there is something we havn't found it. It is always possible that there is some sort of old pesticides, but well tests, etc havn't found anything. Then again-- they probably weren't looking for anything that dangerous either. I need to check this a bit more. Thanks

 

[wondering]

Not sure bout this... but isn't energy issues in AM followed by good energy in PM sign of possible Adrenal issues?

I thought I heard Marianco state this once.

Don't quote me on this.

Three weeks into the T-cyp/hcg regimen and I feel no better. Still battling more more common than not feelings of being "down" or "blah" and to ever present lack of energy. Libido sucks, pun intended, and intermittent erectile issues persist. Oddly enough, I consistently feel the best mentally as the evening wears on. From 9pm on I actually feel pretty good. Weird.

I must be there for my kids and still force myself to go to the gym and, of course, the office, but what is keenly missing is enjoyment of life. For example, I picked up a new BMW just last week and was not nearly as interested as I was with past ones. I wasn't even going to bother, but it was already ordered and my wife say "Ah- go ahead with it- you'll enjoy it". I'd trade the car and much else for a sense of peace and well being. Can't explain what I can only label as mild-moderate depression. Wife, job, kids and family, etc are all pretty good-- why the "blahs"?? Makes no sense.

At this point I am puzzled, as I really thought that adding T cyp would make a pronounced difference. Perhaps it's not a high enough does (.6ml of 100mg) and/or E2 is out of whack as started to happen when on higher amounts of hcg. Even though I lack the updated blood results Shippen gave me the OK to raise the T dose to .8ml and hcg to approximately 400, up from 300.

I'll know more when the blood work gets in and after Shippen returns from vacation. Figured I'd share with the crew here I my experiences my help others going through the same thing.

 

[anyman]

Some new Thyroid results: Could this be a clue as to why things havn't yet worked ?

Just came back from my annual physical and saw my updated thyroid numbers, which I added to the scrip before getting blood. Figured I'd get a few extra tests while I could.

Here we go:

TSH (3rd generation: 1.46 Range (.40-4.50 mIU/L)
T4 free: 0.9 Range (0.8-1.8 ng/dL)
T3 Total: 75.0 Range (60-181 ng/dL)


T4 and T3 sure look low, even though my primary said they are "in range", which we all know is BS.

Any thoughts/comments?

While I'm listing, here are some interesting cholesterol, etc levels

Total cholesterol: 122 (125-200)
HDL: 22 (>=40)
LDL: 76 (<130)
Triglycerides: 118 (<150)

Interestingly, Tricylerides are down from 160 or so.

Still waiting for my most recent T/E results, but I thought I'd throw this out there and get some info/comments on the thyroid values and what to do.
Thanks to all in advance.

 

[hardasnails1973]

Just came back from my annual physical and saw my updated thyroid numbers, which I added to the scrip before getting blood. Figured I'd get a few extra tests while I could.

Here we go:

TSH (3rd generation: 1.46 Range (.40-4.50 mIU/L)
T4 free: 0.9 Range (0.8-1.8 ng/dL)
T3 Total: 75.0 Range (60-181 ng/dL)


T4 and T3 sure look low, even though my primary said they are "in range", which we all know is BS.

Any thoughts/comments?

While I'm listing, here are some interesting cholesterol, etc levels

Total cholesterol: 122 (125-200)
HDL: 22 (>=40)
LDL: 76 (<130)
Triglycerides: 118 (<150)

Interestingly, Tricylerides are down from 160 or so.

Still waiting for my most recent T/E results, but I thought I'd throw this out there and get some info/comments on the thyroid values and what to do.
Thanks to all in advance.

I have a feeling that hcg is driving cholesterol into the toilet as I know alot of peoples cholesterol levels where lowered with hcg since it stimulate the p450 pathways. You meed to supplement it with pregenlone cream to rebuild the pathways.
Shippen is not a big beleiver in precursors and beleives that restoring testosterone will restore these as well. Dhea levels need to be assessed I know hcg will lower dhea for some raise it for others. Accroding to thyroid numbers THEY SUCK literally and need to be addresed as t increases thyroid may need to be supported as well because again every one biochemistry is different. If you live near pesticides or have any relationship to them get iodine urine tests done. Pestides make iodine unavialable to the body and can cause hormonal havoc. Low iodine causes hypopituitarism in rats..for 100 bucks it is worth it !!

 

[anyman]

Thanks, HAN. My cholesterol has always been low- at least for the last 20 yrs (m)

I have a feeling that hcg is driving cholesterol into the toilet as I know alot of peoples cholesterol levels where lowered with hcg since it stimulate the p450 pathways. You meed to supplement it with pregenlone cream to rebuild the pathways.
Shippen is not a big beleiver in precursors and beleives that restoring testosterone will restore these as well. Dhea levels need to be assessed I know hcg will lower dhea for some raise it for others. Accroding to thyroid numbers THEY SUCK literally and need to be addresed as t increases thyroid may need to be supported as well because again every one biochemistry is different. If you live near pesticides or have any relationship to them get iodine urine tests done. Pestides make iodine unavialable to the body and can cause hormonal havoc. Low iodine causes hypopituitarism in rats..for 100 bucks it is worth it !!

I thought these thyroid readings would get your attention as they did mine. I wonder what the best supplement would be. Armour? Gotta ask Shippen about this.

I've always had cholesterol this low, so I doubt hcg is the cause. The thyroid, however, concerns me as these values are indeed low.

I wonder about the iodine. We use pretty much no salt in our house, although I do take a multivitamin with it. Sounds like a test to get. I'll ask for it.

 

[T800]

Don't be too quick to jump on Armour. Althought it is (IMO) the best thyroid medication, it is is still a medication.

I have gone from 3.5 grains of Armour to only 2 grains of Armour by taking 50mg/day of Iodoral (Iodine/potassium). You may or may not be iodine deficient. Many americans are. If you are, your thyroid will suffer. You can either get tested or give supplementation a test run. Watch armpit temps to keep track. That's what Dr Mariano has me use as a guide.

Sonny

 

[hardasnails1973]

I thought these thyroid readings would get your attention as they did mine. I wonder what the best supplement would be. Armour? Gotta ask Shippen about this.

I've always had cholesterol this low, so I doubt hcg is the cause. The thyroid, however, concerns me as these values are indeed low.

I wonder about the iodine. We use pretty much no salt in our house, although I do take a multivitamin with it. Sounds like a test to get. I'll ask for it.

I did same thing ate clean and never salted food. ended up iodine levels of that as a cancer patient. Plus if iodine levels are low then your estrone metabolism is altered as well. I suggest getting with shippen and since t4 to t3 converision is good possible fo on synthroid, but before taking synthroid take iodine test. It has been shown that synthetic synthroid in presence of iodine depletion causes increase rish of cancer..

 

[anyman]

Update with really bizarre results. Still puzzling on this one....

After 3 weeks of 1x/week .6mL of 100mg Depo- T brand Tcyp and 300 iu of hcg 2x/week I got blood results that STILL puzzle me.

Get this- I went DOWN. Saw T of 133, although E dropped to under 32. Never had T that low, even before I started TRT. The lowest I ever saw was around 200.

Even Dr S was puzzled at this one. We speculated that the vial may be bad. Seems odd as I keep it @ room temp and in a cabinet. The extra low T certainly explains my diminished attitude, energy and increased feelings of being "down".

In any event, he now has me on a weekly shot of .5mL of 200mg depo-T (up from 100mg). HCG remains at 300iu 2x/week. Just took the shot yesterday, so it's too early to notice anything.

Any thoughts or ideas here? I admit to being stumped....