Andromass

[EasyEJL]

Okay, what is my mistaken believe exactly?

He basically said that people do multiple cycles because they do not eat enough and you seem to agree with that. I explained why people do multiple cycles, basically because the body always tries to go back to its genetically pre-determined state and it becomes increasingly difficult to maintain a certain level of muscles mass that was the result of artificially increased protein synthesis. What is your explanation? Just eat more food?

Your mistaken belief is that any significant amount of mass is gainable without metabolic cost with use of steroids.

High protein synthesis is necessary to add the mass, not nearly necessary to maintain it unless you are talking Jay Cutler levels of lean mass.

 

[BigBlackGuy]

If we neg him enough, does that mean he goes away forever? :evil:

jk I don't give out negs

 

[EasyEJL]

If we neg him enough, does that mean he goes away forever? :evil:

jk I don't give out negs

Nah, its "Learn, Teach, Lead" for the motto here I'd rather spend the time making sure people understand that diet and excess calories are necessary to get and maintain gains regardless of what pills they are popping or what they are injecting.

 

[50Carbs]

If you think 1lb a week is pedestrian then you apparently haven't talked to anyone who has been working out more than 3 months before. Natural bodybuilders are thrilled to add 1lb of muscle a month, much less week. A 6' tall guy at 200 lbs and 10% bodyfat would be able to hit 250 at the same bodyfat in a year by your crazy math, and I haven't seen anyone even on ferocious levels of steroids accomplish that, including pros.

You did not read the whole thing, did you? Because I also said: "Of course I am not talking about folks who are professional bodybuilders or have been training seriously for many years and have reached their genetic potential in terms of muscle mass, but how many people are in that category anyway? Not many."

A 6' tall guy at 200 lbs and 10% bodyfat would be able to hit 250 at the same bodyfat in a year by your crazy math...

First, I never said anything about 10% bodyfat. Second, what part of "genetically pre-determined" potential don't you understand? Third, I never said one can indefinitely keep adding 1 pound a week. It is just common sense that it is not possible. Fourth, you make it sound as if it is virtually impossible to be 6', 250 and 10% body fat, it is, without steroids. Fifth, why 6', 250 and 10% body fat, is that some kind of standard we all should look up to?

 

[EasyEJL]

You did not read the whole thing, did you? Because I also said: "Of course I am not talking about folks who are professional bodybuilders or have been training seriously for many years and have reached their genetic potential in terms of muscle mass, but how many people are in that category anyway? Not many."

First, I never said anything about 10% bodyfat. Second, what part of "genetically pre-determined" potential don't you understand? Third, I never said one can indefinitely keep adding 1 pound a week. It is just common sense that it is not possible. Fourth, you make it sound as if it is virtually impossible to be 6', 250 and 10% body fat, it is, without steroids. Fifth, why 6', 250 and 10% body fat, is that some kind of standard we all should look up to?

You apparently like arguing. I read your whole post, and its full of crap. Anyone who has been working out more than a few months will find it impossible to make gains like you say are pedestrian. Fat slobs may think they've gained x amount of lean mass a week because they can't tell the difference in adding an extra pound of fat. There are genetically predetermined levels that we have as maxes, but they are far higher than most people think. Its not impossible to reach 250 at 10% naturally, but it sure as hell will take more than 5 years, if not more than 10. And I picked that as an easy math example of how dumb your statement that 1lb in muscle gains a week is pedestrian is, you can insert whatever example numbers you'd prefer into the calculation but its still stupid and impossible.

 

[50Carbs]

Your mistaken belief is that any significant amount of mass is gainable without metabolic cost with use of steroids.

What does "significant" mean? How many pounds is significant to you? Do not bother, it does not matter. Look, if you want to argue that some supplement "works" only if you eat "a ton," that is fine with me. Broscience forever! LOL! The simple fact is, you can gain muscle mass on AAS on baseline calories, which proves that AAS work. As I have already stated numerous times, of course you can gain more muscle mass if you consume more calories, but that is not the point. The point is that if something works, it should work with baseline calories. If it does not, there is no way to tell if you gaining because of surplus calories or some supplement or how much weight you are gaining because of the supplement.

So, my question was: Does Andromass work with baseline calories? What exactly is wrong with my question? In addition, they claim that 8-to-12 pounds in 8-to-12 weeks. Officially, they do not give any guidelines regarding surplus calories. So my other question was: Are these claims based on an assumption that one consumes baseline calories or are they based on some arbitrary and unknown surplus of calories? What is unreasonable about this question? Nothing, unless, of course, you do not have the answer and want to throw around some random numbers and broscience to make it sound as if you know what you are talking about.

By the way, in case you need to lose weight, I have this super new weight loss supplement that only works if you reduce your daily calorie intake by 1,000 calories. You will log that it is the best thing ever, right? I mean, it clearly works, because everybody knows that for a weight loss supplement to burn calories you must consume fewer calories. Right? You probably do not see how this is relevant to what we are talking about here, so like I said in the beginning, do not bother.

 

[EasyEJL]

What does "significant" mean? How many pounds is significant to you? Do not bother, it does not matter. Look, if you want to argue that some supplement "works" only if you eat "a ton," that is fine with me. Broscience forever! LOL! The simple fact is, you can gain muscle mass on AAS on baseline calories, which proves that AAS work. As I have already stated numerous times, of course you can gain more muscle mass if you consume more calories, but that is not the point. The point is that if something works, it should work with baseline calories. If it does not, there is no way to tell if you gaining because of surplus calories or some supplement or how much weight you are gaining because of the supplement.

So, my question was: Does Andromass work with baseline calories? What exactly is wrong with my question? In addition, they claim that 8-to-12 pounds in 8-to-12 weeks. Officially, they do not give any guidelines regarding surplus calories. So my other question was: Are these claims based on an assumption that one consumes baseline calories or are they based on some arbitrary and unknown surplus of calories? What is unreasonable about this question? Nothing, unless, of course, you do not have the answer and want to throw around some random numbers and broscience to make it sound as if you know what you are talking about.

By the way, in case you need to lose weight, I have this super new weight loss supplement that only works if you reduce your daily calorie intake by 1,000 calories. You will log that it is the best thing ever, right? I mean, it clearly works, because everybody knows that for a weight loss supplement to burn calories you must consume fewer calories. Right? You probably do not see how this is relevant to what we are talking about here, so like I said in the beginning, do not bother.

Again simply wrong saying "you will gain mass on AAS at baseline calories" does not mean you will gain enough in 12 weeks to be visible at maintenance calories. Will andromass add some mass without above maintenance calories ? Sure. You want specific numbers and not broscience ? Show me first where you have scientific studies proving how much mass AAS will add at maintenance calories since you keep claiming it will. Otherwise your claim that it does is just broscience as well.

 

[50Carbs]

I read your whole post, and its full of crap. Anyone who has been working out more than a few months will find it impossible to make gains like you say are pedestrian. Fat slobs may think they've gained x amount of lean mass a week because they can't tell the difference in adding an extra pound of fat. There are genetically predetermined levels that we have as maxes, but they are far higher than most people think. Its not impossible to reach 250 at 10% naturally, but it sure as hell will take more than 5 years, if not more than 10. And I picked that as an easy math example of how dumb your statement that 1lb in muscle gains a week is pedestrian is, you can insert whatever example numbers you'd prefer into the calculation but its still stupid and impossible.

Perhaps you need to read it again or ask someone to explain it to you. So here is what I said, one more time. I said: Of course I am not talking about folks who are professional bodybuilders or have been training seriously for many years and have reached their genetic potential in terms of muscle mass, but how many people are in that category anyway? Not many.

First, I never said anything about 10% bodyfat. Second, what part of "genetically pre-determined" potential don't you understand? Third, I never said one can indefinitely keep adding 1 pound a week. It is just common sense that it is not possible. Fourth, you make it sound as if it is virtually impossible to be 6', 250 and 10% body fat, it is, without steroids. Fifth, why 6', 250 and 10% body fat, is that some kind of standard we all should look up to?"

So what is your point exactly? That after three months of training you must eat a ton of food and take AAS or something like Andromass to gain about 10 pounds of muscle mass? Again, I am not taking about pros or people who have reached their genetic limits in terms of muscle mass. Yes, I stand by my statement that an average person, given proper diet and exercise program, can pretty easily gain about 1 pound a week. It is common knowledge.

 

[50Carbs]

You want specific numbers and not broscience ? Show me first where you have scientific studies proving how much mass AAS will add at maintenance calories since you keep claiming it will. Otherwise your claim that it does is just broscience as well.

I am not selling anything here. And I do not need to prove anything. Why not? First, it is common knowledge. You want me to prove to you that 2+2=4, well, sorry, but you need to go back to school. Google how AAS work. Second, again, I am not selling anything here. They do. If they want to sell to people who know a little more than "hey, bro, just eat a ton of food and lift heavy sh*t, and you will be huge in no time," that is fine, there are plenty of bros out there, but it is not going to work for me. Got it?

How about that weight loss supplement that only works if you cut 1,000 calories from your daily calorie intake. Will you rep it for me? It is totally awesome, I mean, you lose a ton of weight in, like, no time, so it must be working perfectly. Yes? No? Maybe? Do I need to post scientific studies that explaining how broscience works?

 

[EasyEJL]

Perhaps you need to read it again or ask someone to explain it to you. So here is what I said, one more time. I said: Of course I am not talking about folks who are professional bodybuilders or have been training seriously for many years and have reached their genetic potential in terms of muscle mass, but how many people are in that category anyway? Not many.

First, I never said anything about 10% bodyfat. Second, what part of "genetically pre-determined" potential don't you understand? Third, I never said one can indefinitely keep adding 1 pound a week. It is just common sense that it is not possible. Fourth, you make it sound as if it is virtually impossible to be 6', 250 and 10% body fat, it is, without steroids. Fifth, why 6', 250 and 10% body fat, is that some kind of standard we all should look up to?"

So what is your point exactly? That after three months of training you must eat a ton of food and take AAS or something like Andromass to gain about 10 pounds of muscle mass? Again, I am not taking about pros or people who have reached their genetic limits in terms of muscle mass. Yes, I stand by my statement that an average person, given proper diet and exercise program, can pretty easily gain about 1 pound a week. It is common knowledge.

Ok seriously you have no idea what you are talking about. Your common knowledge is about as valid as the common knowledge that the earth is flat that people had 600 years ago. Its wrong, plain and simple. Anyone can gain that much on the scale a week, nobody who has been working out more than a few months can possibly gain that much naturally as the protein synthesis rates aren't there to support it.

Again you throw around claims that other people's statements are broscience, but you use "common knowledge " as your justification for what you want to call a fact? Get a grip, show anywhere that there's a scientific study showing lean mass gains naturally more than 1/4 lb a week.

Of course the rest of what you said is also just so much crap that I've already responded to once that perhaps you should get someone to read the response to you, as you don't appear smart enough to understand it. Let me guess. You are about 5'7", 260lbs and 40% bodyfat but your scale that you step on barefoot tells you your bodyfat is the same so you know you've been adding a pound of muscle a week?

 

[EasyEJL]

I am not selling anything here. And I do not need to prove anything. Why not? First, it is common knowledge. You want me to prove to you that 2+2=4, well, sorry, but you need to go back to school. Google how AAS work. Second, again, I am not selling anything here. They do. If they want to sell to people who know a little more than "hey, bro, just eat a ton of food and lift heavy sh*t, and you will be huge in no time," that is fine, there are plenty of bros out there, but it is not going to work for me. Got it?

How about that weight loss supplement that only works if you cut 1,000 calories from your daily calorie intake. Will you rep it for me? It is totally awesome, I mean, you lose a ton of weight in, like, no time, so it must be working perfectly. Yes? No? Maybe? Do I need to post scientific studies that explaining how broscience works?

Again using common knowledge that an entire bodybuilding forum disagrees is true apparently isn't such common knowledge. Its common knowledge that eating 6 small meals revs up your metabolism, but scientifically it isn't true, there's no change in metabolism vs 3 meals of the same net macros and calories.

 

[50Carbs]

Its common knowledge that eating 6 small meals revs up your metabolism.

It is not common knowledge, it is a total broscience. Who told you that it is a common knowledge?

 

[EasyEJL]

I'll be glad once high school starts again and parents start paying attention to their kids bedtimes again.

 

[50Carbs]

I'll be glad once high school starts again and parents start paying attention to their kids bedtimes again.

It is very simple. Given the fact that you do not know anything about me, tell me how many calories above baseline I need to consume to achieve the gains Andromass claims are possible and explain why that number is the correct one.

 

[chocolatemilk]

I don't know what the argument here is 50carbs...

You saying PP telling people to up their calories and water intake while using DS/PH/AAS means something less about the product they sell?

You take steroids and you eat your f*cking fridge empty. That's common sense lol.

 

[EasyEJL]

It is very simple. Given the fact that you do not know anything about me, tell me how many calories above baseline I need to consume to achieve the gains Andromass claims are possible and explain why that number is the correct one.

Those gains are possible as other people have made them, precisely how much you will require is impossible to tell. But you aren't going to buy it anyway, so why don't you go troll elsewhere ?

 

[HereToStudy]

 

[jamesm11]

Are you sure we can't neg trolls?

 

[50Carbs]

Those gains are possible as other people have made them, precisely how much you will require is impossible to tell. But you aren't going to buy it anyway, so why don't you go troll elsewhere?

Right, all hat and no cattle.

 

[Force of Green]

What is his point exactly? He said: "You'll gain weight without increasing calories on-cycle, but you will not maintain them during and beyond PCT. This is why you see so many people on their 5th cycle of SD and still be 185lbs."

Right, so his "good point" is what exactly? That people who use AAS are dumb and do not know that they need to consume more calories to maintain more muscle mass then they used to have before a cycle? That is why professional bodybuilders do more than one cycle? Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Not!

The reason why people do multiple cycles is because the human body always goes back to its natural, genetically pre-determined, baseline. There are individual limits to how much muscle mass one can gain and maintain, eating more food is not going to change your genetics. If it were as simple as doing AAS and eating more, we would all look like Arnold in no time.

His 'point' is that people that use AAS with the mentality that you seem to have, are the ones that make so called gains that are attributed by intramuscular water weight with some possible increases in muscle mass, then end up losing a good portion during PCT and then continue losing it steadily and then end up cycling again and getting the same thing over and over again.

Example: "Wow, I gained 10lbs on Superdrol and am about to start PCT... I seem to have kept my strength, but lost 4lbs so fa,r so not bad... (end of PCT)... so I kept a good 4-5lbs of the weight gained on cycle and strength is still pretty much where it was on cycle"... and a couple months later when it's time for that person to cycle yet again, almost all the weight from the previous cycle is gone.

Constant cyclers that usually call themselves hardgainers or those who are addicted to AAS just for that pumped up look and alpha-male mentality of being 'on' do pretty much the same thing that you are preaching 'works'. Well the more intelligent and logical people on this board know that this isn't the proper way to utilize AAS. When used properly, most gains or all gains can and will be kept after the cycle is done. The mass will be kept if you continue to eat the higher amount of calories that is required to maintain your newly achieved body weight.

 

[Force of Green]

Whether you're looking to cut, bulk, or recomp, before thinking about using AAS you must have a handle on the other important things such as sleep/rest, stress management, workout modification (if necessary) and DIET. You NEED to eat more to gain more. This need not be stated by anybody, including a Primordial Performance rep. The number that was given by a PP rep was a gain that was made by a smart individual who added the necessary amount of calories to his diet and used the product wisely. The Andromass provided the necessary advantage of anabolic activity, anti-catabolic activity, protein synthesis, etc. to allow the individual to achieve the goal.

Maybe the answer for your question is obvious and that you are not ready to use it. It says so in the product description on Primordial Performance's website. If you don't know the basics of working out, eating right, etc. then you have a ways to go until you are ready to use the product.

Without using the Andromass, you can up your calories to bulk up and you can gain weight. Sure, no one is arguing that. The hormonal advantage that Andromass offers will enable you to be able to up your calories more and gain much more muscle mass than you could without it and you won't be packing on the amount of fat that you would, had you not been supplementing with Andromass.

Eat to gain. Eat to lose. Learn how your body responds to food and training and experiment naturally for quite a while. When you are ready to incorporate an Androseries product into your regimen, you should know enough about how your body responds to calories (be it a surplus or deficit) and you can learn how your body responds to the Androseries products by experimenting with the dose as well.

On a side note, EasyEJL is one of the MOST intelligent and kindest men on this board and I have the priviledge of being his friend outside of the boards. You're seriously wasting yours and more importantly his time by continuing this argument that has gone way too far. I'm surprised that Easy has entertained this for so long as it is, for I don't see the point in having wasted the effort talking to someone who isn't here to learn. You seem to enjoy seeing yourself argue and it's a shame, because this was a really good informative thread and now readers will have to sift past all this BS to get any meaningful information. I hope you wisen up and realize that your question has been answered several times.

 

[ryansm]

I don't know what the argument here is 50carbs...

You saying PP telling people to up their calories and water intake while using DS/PH/AAS means something less about the product they sell?

You take steroids and you eat your f*cking fridge empty. That's common sense lol.

^^^This pretty much says it

 

[50Carbs]

Constant cyclers that usually call themselves hardgainers...

A hardgainer is anyone who claims that it is hard for him to gain muscle mass. Ectomorphs, for example, are often called hardgainers, it has nothing to do with AAS use.

The mass will be kept if you continue to eat the higher amount of calories that is required to maintain your newly achieved body weight.

I have never argued otherwise.

 

[50Carbs]

Whether you're looking to cut, bulk, or recomp, before thinking about using AAS you must have a handle on the other important things such as sleep/rest, stress management, workout modification (if necessary) and DIET. You NEED to eat more to gain more.

Again, nobody was arguing otherwise. However, Andromas is not AAS. Andromas is a supplement. Basically, it is a supped-up version of DHEA that nobody has ever heard about. We know that AAS works on baseline calories. Yes, you can gain more on AAS if you eat more. And yes, you need to eat more to maintain the muscle mass acquired on AAS. Again, it is common knowledge and nobody was arguing otherwise, but here comes the main point that you do not seem to be able to grasp: The fact that you can gain muscle mass with baseline calories on AAS is proof that AAS works. I was asking if the same is true for Andromass. Do you get that? If you do not understand why my questions are pretty basic and reasonable, I cannot really help you. It does not get any more simple than that.

I was also asking if their claim of 8-12 lbs in 8 to 12 weeks was based on average results from baseline calories or from the best case scenario and some vague number of surplus calories. Do you get why this is important? Saying that you need to eat more is vague and unusable without actual numbers. How many more calories does one need to eat? 300, 500, 800, 1,200, 2,200 calories? Do you get why there is a huge difference between these numbers? Again, if you do not, we will never get on the same page.

This need not be stated by anybody, including a Primordial Performance rep. The number that was given by a PP rep was a gain that was made by a smart individual who added the necessary amount of calories to his diet and used the product wisely.

Again, this is vague and completely unusable. What does "the necessary amount of calories" mean? The reps are referencing gains from logs that have no control group. Have you ever heard of double blind control groups? Do you know why they are always used in scientific studies that test the effectiveness of drugs? Because without a control group, the results are meaningless and there is no way to tell if a given drug works. Again, this is common knowledge and I was asking for basic information. Now, why would anyone have a problem with that? Do you want objective information or do you just believe in what ads say?

 

[EasyEJL]

We know that AAS works on baseline calories.....

You apparently "know" that, but you are pretty well alone on thinking its any meaningful amount. 2lbs gained in 8 weeks at maintenance calories is what someone eating surplus calories could do naturally without shooting their endocrine system.

The fact that you can gain muscle mass with baseline calories on AAS is proof that AAS works.

No, the fact that protein synthesis is higher is proof it works. Whether it still requires calories above baseline to acheive higher than non-AAS levels of protein synthesis is entirely different.

I was asking if the same is true for Andromass. Do you get that? If you do not understand why my questions are pretty basic and reasonable, I cannot really help you. It does not get any more simple than that.

and apparently you don't read very well as this was answered by one of the reps you will get some small gains from andromass at maintenance calories.

I was also asking if their claim of 8-12 lbs in 8 to 12 weeks was based on average results from baseline calories or from the best case scenario and some vague number of surplus calories. Do you get why this is important? Saying that you need to eat more is vague and unusable without actual numbers. How many more calories does one need to eat? 300, 500, 800, 1,200, 2,200 calories? Do you get why there is a huge difference between these numbers? Again, if you do not, we will never get on the same page.

Its based on actual user results. primordial had no control over users diets, those are just the reported results which are in line with their expectations. As apparently you forgot your own words, its impossible to give you some specific caloric surplus that would generate that for all users in all situations.

Again, this is vague and completely unusable. What does "the necessary amount of calories" mean? The reps are referencing gains from logs that have no control group. Have you ever heard of double blind control groups? Do you know why they are always used in scientific studies that test the effectiveness of drugs? Because without a control group, the results are meaningless and there is no way to tell if a given drug works. Again, this is common knowledge and I was asking for basic information. Now, why would anyone have a problem with that? Do you want objective information or do you just believe in what ads say?

Nowhere do they state its from a scientific study published in a peer reviewed publicly printed journal. Its all the information they have though and since its apparently not enough for you then why don't you give up already. You aren't going to get the information you say you want, as nobody has it. Nobody selling you AAS can tell you specifically how much mass you'll gain and how much in excess calories it will take to get you there either. If you want to buy it and try it, they have a 150% money back guarantee, if not get out of this discussion already.

 

[50Carbs]

Its based on actual user results.

Right, except the fact that these so-called results are totally meaningless without a control group. Some dude says that he has gained, say, 8 pounds in 8 weeks after he has been "eating a fridge empty" for 8 weeks or something similar to that. Wow! Really? You mean to tell me that people gain weight when they increase their calorie intake? Totally groundbreaking stuff.

Primordial had no control over users diets...

Right, so these results do not mean anything. If diets are uncontrolled, the results mean nothing. Again, this is common knowledge.

...those are just the reported results which are in line with their expectations.

Right, again, reported results from uncontrolled diets and no control group mean nothing. This is high school science stuff, pretty basic, you know.

As apparently you forgot your own words, its impossible to give you some specific caloric surplus that would generate that for all users in all situations.

Those are not my own words. I asked you to tell me something more meaningful than the typical broscience stuff - i.e., "just eat a ton" or something similar to that, and you could not. It is possible, if the results are based on properly conducted scientific studies with controlled diets and control groups.

 

[EasyEJL]

Right, except the fact that these so-called results are totally meaningless without a control group. Some dude says that he has gained, say, 8 pounds in 8 weeks after he has been "eating a fridge empty" for 8 weeks or something similar to that. Wow! Really? You mean to tell me that people gain weight when they increase their calorie intake? Totally groundbreaking stuff.

Right, so these results do not mean anything. If diets are uncontrolled, the results mean nothing. Again, this is common knowledge.

Right, again, reported results from uncontrolled diets and no control group mean nothing. This is high school science stuff, pretty basic, you know.

Those are not my own words. I asked you to tell me something more meaningful than the typical broscience stuff - i.e., "just eat a ton" or something similar to that, and you could not. It is possible, if the results are based on properly conducted scientific studies with controlled diets and control groups.

And again, as I said, to use one of your favorite phrases, its common knowledge that nobody has any more specific details that this on any compound, whether prescription anabolic, over the counter, or natural. As you said yourself, there are too many individual variables to give any sort of meaningful number.

You've said thats what you are looking for, although since you argued about their estimate when they gave it I doubt you want real numbers but just want to argue. its common knowledge you aren't going to get specific numbers even if you went to a pharmaceutical manufacturer of dianabol, so give up already.

 

[BigBlackGuy]

Those are not my own words. I asked you to tell me something more meaningful than the typical broscience stuff - i.e., "just eat a ton" or something similar to that, and you could not. It is possible, if the results are based on properly conducted scientific studies with controlled diets and control groups.

Steroids are an amazing nutrient partitioner. So if you eat over your maintenance in calories, those calories will TEND to go into building more muscle instead of storing more fat. So you're really wasting your cycle if you don't take advantage of that.

 

[50Carbs]

As you said yourself, there are too many individual variables to give any sort of meaningful number.

I did not say that. Quote me. You are taking what I said out of context.

...so give up already.

Since you are all hat and no cattle, you are the one who needs to give up. What do you have, "eat a ton, eat the fridge empty"? Do you have anything scientific and objective to back the claims? Just in case you are still confused, broscience, random logs, uncontrolled diets without control groups are not objective and mean nothing.

 

[EasyEJL]

I did not say that. Quote me. You are taking what I said out of context.

yawn, here's your statement

First, as I have already explained before, how much one can gain and retain, depends on genetics and a number of individual variables (daily calorie intake being just one part of the equation).

genetics plus other variables of which caloric intake is just one determine how much you can gain and retain. There is no one answer to how many calories it will require any individual to gain x amount of pounds over x amount of time with x dose of whatever anabolic as it is individual. Comeon, admit it, its one of the few conversation points you are right on.

Since you are all hat and no cattle, you are the one who needs to give up. What do you have, "eat a ton, eat the fridge empty"? Do you have anything scientific and objective to back the claims? Just in case you are still confused, broscience, random logs, uncontrolled diets without control groups are not objective and mean nothing.

And I'm not trying to sell you anything, I'm trying to keep this board and this thread clean and uncluttered with total nonsense except for in the Chat section. I've now told you for the 3rd time that nobody including pharmaceutical companies with FDA approval to sell tesotsterone have the data you are looking for, being able to tell you precise amounts of gains with precise amounts of calories in precise amounts of time. So you aren't contributing anyting to the thread but beating a dead horse repetitively, particularly though your warped common knowledge which is apparently very uncommon.

 

[50Carbs]

First, as I have already explained before, how much one can gain and retain, depends on genetics and a number of individual variables (daily calorie intake being just one part of the equation).

Yes, that is what I said, and I stand by it. So what? Like I said, you are taking it out of context. What does it have to do with the fact that you cannot back up your claims with any scientific data?

genetics plus other variables of which caloric intake is just one determine how much you can gain and retain. There is no one answer to how many calories it will require any individual to gain x amount of pounds over x amount of time with x dose of whatever anabolic as it is individual. Comeon, admit it, its one of the few conversation points you are right on.

I already said that I stand by it, but what is your point? Again, what does it have to do with the fact that you do not have any scientific data to back up your claims?

You make it sound as if it is impossible to prove with science whether or not some supplement works, which is just silly talk. Have you ever heard of double blind scientific studies that test effectiveness of drugs and supplements? I guess not.

 

[Rodja]

Can you please end this? All it's doing is clogging up the thread with useless banter.

 

[EasyEJL]

Yes, that is what I said, and I stand by it. So what? Like I said, you are taking it out of context. What does it have to do with the fact that you cannot back up your claims with any scientific data?

where have you backed up any of your claims with scientific data of what is "common knowledge" that the members here disagree with? You want to use those things as talking points, then prove them. many people have stated disagreement with those, so they aren't common knowledge, and common knowledge does not mean something is true.

I already said that I stand by it, but what is your point? Again, what does it have to do with the fact that you do not have any scientific data to back up your claims?

You make it sound as if it is impossible to prove with science whether or not some supplement works, which is just silly talk. Have you ever heard of double blind scientific studies that test effectiveness of drugs and supplements? I guess not.

You are entirely wrong. You haven't asked for proof that it works, you have asked for specific amounts of calorie intake to be taken with a specific level of use of a substance to gain a specific amount of pounds. There isn't a single place in the pharmaceutical world you will find that. Doses are based on estimate, and have large margins of error. Any dietary guidance to go with it is an estimate with large margins of error. You state that "proof" that AAS "works" is that you can make gains at baseline calories, but i've asked reptitively for you to show a scientific study that proves that and you haven't. You are just disrupting what could be a useful thread for sake the disrupting it by circularly arguing the same point which you have repeatedly been told there isn't an answer to for Andromass, and there isn't that same answer available for Dianabol either.

 

[rulk22]

Im pretty sure im seeing whats trying to be attempted here. It sounds as if someone is tryin to paint us into the corner with our own words, but I could be wrong. Ill just say that the many who are using our products are for the majority, satisfied and will be using them again. 50carbs, if your genuinly interested in testing out the products to see if they work, pm me and we'll work something out.

 

[50Carbs]

Can you please end this? All it's doing is clogging up the thread with useless banter.

Yes, I am ending this. EasyEJL has just sank to the new low. He gave me negative reputation points after I pointed out the fact that he cannot back up his claims with anything more than broscience and taking what I said out of context. EasyEJL, you won! Give me more negative points, it will be a double win for you.

 

[EasyEJL]

Yes, I am ending this. EasyEJL has just sank to the new low. He gave me negative reputation points after I pointed out the fact that he cannot back up his claims with anything more than broscience and taking what I said out of context. EasyEJL, you won! Give me more negative points, it will be a double win for you.

Nope, sorry, I did it because you made the same argument circularly repetively after you had already been told 3x there was no answer to what you wanted, not even for pharmaceutical products.

 

[50Carbs]

Nope, sorry, I did it because you made the same argument circularly repetively after you had already been told 3x there was no answer to what you wanted, not even for pharmaceutical products.

Yes, EasyEJL, you won, relax. You are the big guy and I am nobody. Relax, you won. Happy?

 

[jamesm11]

you're just being a child. end it. you said it was over yet you're still going on.

 

[50Carbs]

you're just being a child. end it. you said it was over yet you're still going on.

EasyEJL, another win for you and jamesm11. More negative points from jamesm11. Wow, you guys are so powerful. Of course, I am a child and you are the parents giving out the punishment for not agreeing with your bs. Anyone else?

 

[jamesm11]

this forum is for helping others and should be treated as a positive environment. you have been trolling and being negative and condescending towards people non-stop. Just leave the forum and stop trolling. People are here to help, but you don't want help, you want a fight.

 

[50Carbs]

this forum is for helping others and should be treated as a positive environment. you have been trolling and being negative and condescending towards people non-stop. Just leave the forum and stop trolling. People are here to help, but you don't want help, you want a fight.

Yes, you are right. Asking questions and asking for scientific evidence is negative and condescending. Saying "just eat a ton" is great learning. Why don't you leave? What have you contributed to the discussion?

 

[rulk22]

Yes, you are right. Asking questions and asking for scientific evidence is negative and condescending. Saying "just eat a ton" is great learning. Why don't you leave? What have you contributed to the discussion?

50carbs, how about my offer, what do you think? Id like you to try out products and see 1st hand if they work. Pm me if you'd like.

 

[EasyEJL]

Yes, you are right. Asking questions and asking for scientific evidence is negative and condescending. Saying "just eat a ton" is great learning. Why don't you leave? What have you contributed to the discussion?

Repetitively asking for information that you've been told doesn't exist helps no one

 

[ryansm]

Yes, you are right. Asking questions and asking for scientific evidence is negative and condescending. Saying "just eat a ton" is great learning. Why don't you leave? What have you contributed to the discussion?

I'm asking kindly that you please stop posting in this thread. If you wish to continue start your own thread, but out of respect we ask that you no longer do so here, Thank you.

 

[50Carbs]

50carbs, how about my offer, what do you think? Id like you to try out products and see 1st hand if they work. Pm me if you'd like.

Of course I want to try Andromass, that is why I was asking all these questions, so that I can get the most of it and do it right, but some people (who have nothing to do with the product, hello EasyEJL) turn my reasonable questions into pointless arguments and nasty attacks. I still do not know how to use Andromass properly and what to expect from it, which, frankly, is not exactly a welcoming sign from the Andromass community, but hey, there are other companies out there that actually care about their potential customers. So thanks, but now I just do not feel like paying $200 after being treated like this.

 

[Force of Green]

rulk22! Let me try some product!? Please.

 

[Force of Green]

Of course I want to try Andromass, that is why I was asking all these questions, so that I can get the most of it and do it right, but some people (who have nothing to do with the product, hello EasyEJL) turn my reasonable questions into pointless arguments and nasty attacks. I still do not know how to use Andromass properly and what to expect from it, which, frankly, is not exactly a welcoming sign from the Andromass community, but hey, there are other companies out there that actually care about their potential customers. So thanks, but now I just do not feel like paying $200 after being treated like this.

I guess all that arguing got you the grand prize. I must admit I'm a bit jealous. LOL. If you purposely eff up pages worth of Primordial Performances thread, bash the products and reps with child-like enough logic.... you'll get expensive products for free. LOL.

 

[MattPorter]

I think this hilarious customer complaint is PLENTY of empirical proof that Pp's AndroSeries are VERY LEGIT - primordialperformance.com/discussion/primordial-health/6791-very-disappointed-primordial-performance.html - Here the Original poster wanted his money back because he "ONLY" gained 8-9 lbs of muscle and "ONLY" lost 2-3% body fat. He expected much more for the price tag. But 50carbs is right, that still is not enough proof for giving the AndroSeries any type of credit. I mean he PROBABLY ATE THE ENTIRE FRIDGE and gained 8-9 lbs WAIT! He ate the entire fridge and LOST BODY FAT! Pshhhhh - that could have been done with perfectly manipulated nutrient timing + Caloric overload + strategic cardio bouts to partition nutrients to NEW tissue. Yea...that must be it. NEXT......

 

[MattPorter]

HereTOStudy, BBG, ROdja, Noa etc,...please post the entire link as I do not have enough posts to submit a link - Thx guys.

 

[ryansm]

Here is the link FF is referring to http://www.primordialperformance.com/discussion/primordial-health/6791-very-disappointed-primordial-performance.html