Anabolic Window Myth

Borashi

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So I used to be the gym bro that would drink a pwo, intra, post workout shake. Then I read about the anabolic window is up to 24 hrs after you lift, so now I'll do a pwo shake, an amino acid shake intra workout, my thinking being the amino acids will open my body up for protein synthesis, then I'll eat a high protein high fat meal within 2 hrs after lifting. Do you feel their is an anabolic window? I just would rather get my protein from meat vs a shake.
 
jameschoi

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NUTRITION: While following this program, consume one pound of protein per gram of body weight. Also, I highly recommend consuming 40 grams of simple carbs during your workout and 40 to 100 more grams post-workout, along with 30 to 50 grams of a high-quality whey protein. As for the rest of your diet, split up your calories between carbs and fats however you like, but the goal is to gain two pounds per week.

https://www.muscleandfitness.com/workouts/workout-routines/mass-building-program-look-bigger-three-weeks
 
AntM1564

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So I used to be the gym bro that would drink a pwo, intra, post workout shake. Then I read about the anabolic window is up to 24 hrs after you lift, so now I'll do a pwo shake, an amino acid shake intra workout, my thinking being the amino acids will open my body up for protein synthesis, then I'll eat a high protein high fat meal within 2 hrs after lifting. Do you feel their is an anabolic window? I just would rather get my protein from meat vs a shake.
Muscle protein synthesis is elevated for 48 hours or so after training. You do not need anything intra if your pre workout nutrition is spot on. Post workout, eat or drink what you like. I would make sure to get some carbs in post workout though.
 

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Just get the calories you need in. Doesn’t matter when. I eat all calories in a two hour window usually and works the same as when I ate six times a day.
 

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I hear all the time it doesn't matter "when" during the day it is when you get your calories, but I know I have better workouts if I have a couple of meals in me before I hit the weights, vs. fasting for 6-7 hours before the gym then eating after. Not just feeling better, but stronger (more weight and or more reps compared to the prior workout). Sometimes Bro science just works? Placebo effect? I don't know.
 
Chados

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I hear all the time it doesn't matter "when" during the day it is when you get your calories, but I know I have better workouts if I have a couple of meals in me before I hit the weights, vs. fasting for 6-7 hours before the gym then eating after. Not just feeling better, but stronger (more weight and or more reps compared to the prior workout). Sometimes Bro science just works? Placebo effect? I don't know.
No it definitely matter, especially what types of food. You don't wanna have a pizza at night
 
ValiantThor08

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Why not at night? Thought kiefer said garbage carbs like that should be eaten at night as part of CBL.
This.. Simple carbs before bed. Dont eat directly before, or directly after a workout.
 
muscleupcrohn

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This.. Simple carbs before bed. Dont eat directly before, or directly after a workout.
It’s fine to eat after a workout... both studies and decades of anecdotal evidence support this. Hell, studies have shown that consuming EAAs and carbs DURING workouts can increase lean body mass and not lead to fat gain.
 
ValiantThor08

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It’s fine to eat after a workout... both studies and decades of anecdotal evidence support this. Hell, studies have shown that consuming EAAs and carbs DURING workouts can increase lean body mass and not lead to fat gain.
One can eat after a workout, but it is optimal to wait a couple hours after. From what I have read, listened to, and experienced, it is more optimal. There is no extra benefit to eat immediately after a workout. We apparantly have differing philosophies. I used to worry about getting something in me directly after a workout. I used to eat a different way. Now that I eat fewer meals, and eat about a couple hours after a workout, I have experienced better growth.
 
muscleupcrohn

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One can eat after a workout, but it is optimal to wait a couple hours after. From what I have read, listened to, and experienced, it is more optimal. There is no extra benefit to eat immediately after a workout. We apparantly have differing philosophies. I used to worry about getting something in me directly after a workout. I used to eat a different way. Now that I eat fewer meals, and eat about a couple hours after a workout, I have experienced better growth.
No extra benefit doesn’t mean suboptimal... you don’t have to eat immediately after, but it isn’t detrimental to do so. You do what works for you, but science is on my side in both threads we are discussing similar topics in.
 
muscleupcrohn

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Science^^
Literally nothing he cited said that consuming protein immediately post-workout is suboptimal, only that it isn’t necessary, and you can get the same results eating later after your workout. I don’t think you know the difference between “not more beneficial” and “suboptimal” man.
 
ValiantThor08

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Literally nothing he cited said that consuming protein immediately post-workout is suboptimal, only that it isn’t necessary, and you can get the same results eating later after your workout. I don’t think you know the difference between “not more beneficial” and “suboptimal” man.
Could of sworn I read it somewhere. I'll look around. Study more. If I dont find anything, I concede.
 
Bagofturdwind

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Could of sworn I read it somewhere. I'll look around. Study more. If I dont find anything, I concede.
In that carb backloading YouTube video he literally says he eats very ripe bananas and a protein shake immediately post-workout. Then follows up with something like an entire pizza 30 min after that.
 
ValiantThor08

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In that carb backloading YouTube video he literally says he eats very ripe bananas and a protein shake immediately post-workout. Then follows up with something like an entire pizza 30 min after that.
I dont agree with his timing. But I do agree with the evening simple carb timing.
 
ValiantThor08

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And in reality, if one consumes enough protein, and enough calories, timing is not a huge deal, keto, or non keto is not a huge deal. What is sustainable to someone is where it is at.
 
Chados

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Why not at night? Thought kiefer said garbage carbs like that should be eaten at night as part of CBL.
You don't wanna spike bloodsugar when you're sleeping. The reason to time meals is to keep bloodsugar stable during the day. Its also not smart to eat right before bed, maybe 1-2 hours before so you're body doesn't have to work to digest when it should be focusing on sleeping.

I'm not saying carbs at night won't help to build muscle cause as far as building muscle you can eat whatever whenever, but do you want to add fat and then have to lose weight to cut and arguably lose muscle at the same time?. Not worth it.
 
Bagofturdwind

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You don't wanna spike bloodsugar when you're sleeping. The reason to time meals is to keep bloodsugar stable during the day. Its also not smart to eat right before bed, maybe 1-2 hours before so you're body doesn't have to work to digest when it should be focusing on sleeping.

I'm not saying carbs at night won't help to build muscle cause as far as building muscle you can eat whatever whenever, but do you want to add fat and then have to lose weight to cut and arguably lose muscle at the same time?. Not worth it.
I mean yes, that’s the thinking of the past. Whether that still holds true or not is the question. I’m not saying the 2 limited studies we have on carb back-loading are golden, but we need do further research and not just adhere to potential broscience going forward.
 
The Solution

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So I used to be the gym bro that would drink a pwo, intra, post workout shake. Then I read about the anabolic window is up to 24 hrs after you lift, so now I'll do a pwo shake, an amino acid shake intra workout, my thinking being the amino acids will open my body up for protein synthesis, then I'll eat a high protein high fat meal within 2 hrs after lifting. Do you feel their is an anabolic window? I just would rather get my protein from meat vs a shake.

Eat a meal or drink a shake. I personally eat a meal because I love to eat.

Good Powerpoint on why here:
https://www.slideshare.net/.../optimal-protein-intake-and...

You want to aim to acquire 3g of leucine per meal that contains at (Optimal amount to stimulate MPS). If you constantly are spiking MPS and not allowing it to reach refractory stages it does less benefit from a MPS (Muscle Protein Synthesis) Standpoint.

P-Ratio and MPS May be skewed if you are "Enhanced", but that is a different ballgame. for the most a good rule of thumb is below from Alan A. and Brad S.
Cliffs:

When are Carbs and Protein VERY Important Post-workout?

Carbs:
- During leg Training + HIIT Cardio or doing a 2-3 hour intense workout session
Protein:
-Resistance Training in a fasted state (no meal consumed at least 3-4 hours prior)

When are Carbs and Protein of lesser importance Post-workout?

Carbs:
- 1-2 hour training session after a pre-workout meal (Small or mixed 2-3 hours prior to session)
Protein:
- Training after a meal composed of 20-40g Protein at least 1-2 hours prior to a workout in a fed state.

Overall Cliffs:

- Nutrient Timing can be beneficial but the anabolic window is not as important as we believed.
- Provided protein rich meal 3-4 hours prior to training, there is no stress about immediate post-workout protein supplement or meal
- Consume .4-.5g/kg of LBM in a pre/post workout exercise window spaced 4-6 hours depending on meal size.
- Post workout carb intake does not meaningful increase anabolism unless doing a 2 a day workout session involving same muscle groups. Glycogen is not a limiting factor if you can consume enough Carbohydrates daily in the 24 hour period.
 
Old Witch

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Why eat a meal OR drink a shake, when you can eat a meal AND drink a shake???
 
DR.D

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To keep it simple, protein synthesis doesn't start for 4-6hrs when nuclear expression occurs, and continues up to 48hrs (as Ant mentioned already.) But you have a 24hr window for carbs (glycogenesis.) I don't like to eat right after training, just because I'm usually still kinda queezy, but I do take anti-catabolics like bAET and HMB immediately post or sometime pre just to cover all the bases.
 
thebigt

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To keep it simple, protein synthesis doesn't start for 4-6hrs when nuclear expression occurs, and continues up to 48hrs (as Ant mentioned already.) But you have a 24hr window for carbs (glycogenesis.) I don't like to eat right after training, just because I'm usually still kinda queezy, but I do take anti-catabolics like bAET and HMB immediately post or sometime pre just to cover all the bases.
when using topical bAET like Invictus timing shouldn't be a issue, right?
 
Old Witch

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Anabolic timing is overrated. It takes a long time to digest food. Eat after training, most of those nutrients won’t even get into your system for hours.

Shakes are better for rapid absorption of proteins if you really need it in you now.

Carbs absorb almost immediately as well. Especially sugars.

So if you believe in the anabolic window, then a 60g whey isolate shake with 100g dextrose would be the ideal post workout meal. Anything else would absorb too slowly to even matter when it was eaten.
 
MrKleen73

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In that carb backloading YouTube video he literally says he eats very ripe bananas and a protein shake immediately post-workout. Then follows up with something like an entire pizza 30 min after that.
Yes but in some of his new research he documented that he has found better results waiting an hour or two before eating post workout.
I dont agree with his timing. But I do agree with the evening simple carb timing.
His new research actually supports waiting a couple hours to eat, that something that happens during that time causes a heightened response once fed. I can't remember the details but there is an hour long podcast of him with BPak discussing it as they both follow something similar in low carbs until post workout, or BPak suggests ingesting carbs around the 30 minute mark of the workout. Where they did not aggree was that BPak thought for bodybuilders they needed to start introducing carbs ealier to curb cortisol. Keifer's was that the increased catabolism of waiting actually increased the adaptation response to the training. He cites a bunch of studies on this as well. You might want to look that up and see if you can find it. Was pretty informative on both ends.

You don't wanna spike bloodsugar when you're sleeping. The reason to time meals is to keep bloodsugar stable during the day. Its also not smart to eat right before bed, maybe 1-2 hours before so you're body doesn't have to work to digest when it should be focusing on sleeping.

I'm not saying carbs at night won't help to build muscle cause as far as building muscle you can eat whatever whenever, but do you want to add fat and then have to lose weight to cut and arguably lose muscle at the same time?. Not worth it.
You would have to read CBL to truly understand the process behind how carb backloading works however to be blunt a lot people on CBL end up going hypo overnight due to low blood sugar from all of the simple easily digested carbs creating such a spike that everything gets shuttled into the muscle and blood sugar ends up low enough to cause a hypo even at night. Lots of times waking up in sweats from going hypo. The entire point of CBL is to get the carbs slammed into the muscle and out of the blood stream quickly.

As for things like pizza they rely on the fact that fats take much longer to enter the bloodstream, the fastest being MCT's which take about an hour but saturated fats tend to take about 3 hour to enter the stream and insulin has already shuttle the carbs in by that time so no excess insulin to drive the fat into storage so it tends to get burned in the low blood sugar environment. Hit me up if interested and I will get you a copy of the book.

To keep it simple, protein synthesis doesn't start for 4-6hrs when nuclear expression occurs, and continues up to 48hrs (as Ant mentioned already.) But you have a 24hr window for carbs (glycogenesis.) I don't like to eat right after training, just because I'm usually still kinda queezy, but I do take anti-catabolics like bAET and HMB immediately post or sometime pre just to cover all the bases.
Interesting, I haven't thought about the anti-catabolics. Although if the research that Keifer refers to is correct perhaps their might be more gains to be had without them.
 
DR.D

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when using topical bAET like Invictus timing shouldn't be a issue, right?
Supposed to take ~4hrs to induce full anti-catabolic effect orally, so maybe half the time with a good TD formula like Rob's. I take 100mg pre-w/o and that gives it a few hours at least.

And people make fun of it, but i've had real results with HMB too, especially dieting and immediate post-w/o. You really can short cals and hold muscle if you take 1.5g of that every 3-4hrs. But i never actually did bloodwork specifically on these adrenal issues so who knows.
 
DR.D

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... Interesting, I haven't thought about the anti-catabolics. Although if the research that Keifer refers to is correct perhaps their might be more gains to be had without them.
Really, more gains without anti-catabolics?

Who is this Keifer you speak of? I need to investigate his hypothesis to put it in the right context.
 
Chados

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Yes but in some of his new research he documented that he has found better results waiting an hour or two before eating post workout.
His new research actually supports waiting a couple hours to eat, that something that happens during that time causes a heightened response once fed. I can't remember the details but there is an hour long podcast of him with BPak discussing it as they both follow something similar in low carbs until post workout, or BPak suggests ingesting carbs around the 30 minute mark of the workout. Where they did not aggree was that BPak thought for bodybuilders they needed to start introducing carbs ealier to curb cortisol. Keifer's was that the increased catabolism of waiting actually increased the adaptation response to the training. He cites a bunch of studies on this as well. You might want to look that up and see if you can find it. Was pretty informative on both ends.

You would have to read CBL to truly understand the process behind how carb backloading works however to be blunt a lot people on CBL end up going hypo overnight due to low blood sugar from all of the simple easily digested carbs creating such a spike that everything gets shuttled into the muscle and blood sugar ends up low enough to cause a hypo even at night. Lots of times waking up in sweats from going hypo. The entire point of CBL is to get the carbs slammed into the muscle and out of the blood stream quickly.

As for things like pizza they rely on the fact that fats take much longer to enter the bloodstream, the fastest being MCT's which take about an hour but saturated fats tend to take about 3 hour to enter the stream and insulin has already shuttle the carbs in by that time so no excess insulin to drive the fat into storage so it tends to get burned in the low blood sugar environment. Hit me up if interested and I will get you a copy of the book.


Interesting, I haven't thought about the anti-catabolics. Although if the research that Keifer refers to is correct perhaps their might be more gains to be had without them.
Yes but in some of his new research he documented that he has found better results waiting an hour or two before eating post workout.
His new research actually supports waiting a couple hours to eat, that something that happens during that time causes a heightened response once fed. I can't remember the details but there is an hour long podcast of him with BPak discussing it as they both follow something similar in low carbs until post workout, or BPak suggests ingesting carbs around the 30 minute mark of the workout. Where they did not aggree was that BPak thought for bodybuilders they needed to start introducing carbs ealier to curb cortisol. Keifer's was that the increased catabolism of waiting actually increased the adaptation response to the training. He cites a bunch of studies on this as well. You might want to look that up and see if you can find it. Was pretty informative on both ends.

You would have to read CBL to truly understand the process behind how carb backloading works however to be blunt a lot people on CBL end up going hypo overnight due to low blood sugar from all of the simple easily digested carbs creating such a spike that everything gets shuttled into the muscle and blood sugar ends up low enough to cause a hypo even at night. Lots of times waking up in sweats from going hypo. The entire point of CBL is to get the carbs slammed into the muscle and out of the blood stream quickly.

As for things like pizza they rely on the fact that fats take much longer to enter the bloodstream, the fastest being MCT's which take about an hour but saturated fats tend to take about 3 hour to enter the stream and insulin has already shuttle the carbs in by that time so no excess insulin to drive the fat into storage so it tends to get burned in the low blood sugar environment. Hit me up if interested and I will get you a copy of the book.


Interesting, I haven't thought about the anti-catabolics. Although if the research that Keifer refers to is correct perhaps their might be more gains to be had without them.

Thanks appreciate that. Im aware that it does take time for saturated fats and I'm not buying that a pizza alone makes everyone fat but i do believe the rest of the diet and the timing of other meals would cause the pizza to be stored as fat. Ill get in touch later, mothers birthday 😁. You always bring some interesting thoughts to the table.
 
ValiantThor08

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Really, more gains without anti-catabolics?

Who is this Keifer you speak of? I need to investigate his hypothesis to put it in the right context.
Google and or YouTube "john keifer carb back loading", or "carb night"; he basically took the "anabolic diet", and the "CKD" concept, and added his own tweaks.
 
DR.D

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Keifer definately seems to have integrated and quantitated a few popular concepts. I agree with most everything he said except the fish oil and antioxidants part. But his carb back-loading timing is right on.
 
DR.D

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... Interesting, I haven't thought about the anti-catabolics. Although if the research that Keifer refers to is correct perhaps their might be more gains to be had without them.
Kleen, I haven't studied Keifer as well as you so correct me if I misunderstood, but it seems like he's emphasizing a little carb and hi protein immediately post workout?

Also, not to consume carbs or spike insulin when cortisol is elevated. That would mean taking a cortisol-antagonist like bAET should stack well with what he recommends if used strategically, like post-w/o or late afternoon when cort is naturally high, or if you eat carbs at the wrong time and want to try and blunt fat gains from it. He doesn't seem to mind cortisol in the morning though, since he skips breakfast, and that makes sense.
 
Ptlhains

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I get a much better pump from eating post workout than waiting 5 hours to eat. Almost like I took a GDA.
 
Deadlifter99

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I mean in reality eating everything as gradually and as spread out throughout the day as you can is ideal for digestion but if your goal is to have as much protein enter your muscles as possible right after your workout then eat protein 1 or 2 hours before training so it starts absorbing during training then eat simple carbs right after training to spike your insulin.
 
DR.D

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I mean in reality eating everything as gradually and as spread out throughout the day as you can is ideal for digestion but if your goal is to have as much protein enter your muscles as possible right after your workout then eat protein 1 or 2 hours before training so it starts absorbing during training then eat simple carbs right after training to spike your insulin.
That's what Poliquin always stressed too, the value of carbs immediately post-w/o.
 

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I like Meadows, Scott Stevenson, and Skip Hill as far as dieting advice.
I think most people now are selling a gimmick so things are over complicated whether it’s nutrition, workouts, or supplementation.
What ever happened to getting strong as ****, high protein and pounding mostly clean food and when you start getting too soft pulling back carbs and fats?
Just keep a log so you know what you’re doing.

Scott has a pretty simple way he was talking about on Advices radio protein and carbs only around workouts and the rest of the time proteins and fats. It’s simple and easy.
 
Whisky

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Yes but in some of his new research he documented that he has found better results waiting an hour or two before eating post workout.
His new research actually supports waiting a couple hours to eat, that something that happens during that time causes a heightened response once fed. I can't remember the details but there is an hour long podcast of him with BPak discussing it as they both follow something similar in low carbs until post workout, or BPak suggests ingesting carbs around the 30 minute mark of the workout. Where they did not aggree was that BPak thought for bodybuilders they needed to start introducing carbs ealier to curb cortisol. Keifer's was that the increased catabolism of waiting actually increased the adaptation response to the training. He cites a bunch of studies on this as well. You might want to look that up and see if you can find it. Was pretty informative on both ends.

You would have to read CBL to truly understand the process behind how carb backloading works however to be blunt a lot people on CBL end up going hypo overnight due to low blood sugar from all of the simple easily digested carbs creating such a spike that everything gets shuttled into the muscle and blood sugar ends up low enough to cause a hypo even at night. Lots of times waking up in sweats from going hypo. The entire point of CBL is to get the carbs slammed into the muscle and out of the blood stream quickly.

As for things like pizza they rely on the fact that fats take much longer to enter the bloodstream, the fastest being MCT's which take about an hour but saturated fats tend to take about 3 hour to enter the stream and insulin has already shuttle the carbs in by that time so no excess insulin to drive the fat into storage so it tends to get burned in the low blood sugar environment. Hit me up if interested and I will get you a copy of the book.


Interesting, I haven't thought about the anti-catabolics. Although if the research that Keifer refers to is correct perhaps their might be more gains to be had without them.
I’m assuming the waiting to eat post workout is because of the gh release (which is obviously blunted by insulin)......seen this referred to in multiple places as potentially beneficial as long as the workout itself wasn’t fasted
 
MrKleen73

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Kleen, I haven't studied Keifer as well as you so correct me if I misunderstood, but it seems like he's emphasizing a little carb and hi protein immediately post workout?

Also, not to consume carbs or spike insulin when cortisol is elevated. That would mean taking a cortisol-antagonist like bAET should stack well with what he recommends if used strategically, like post-w/o or late afternoon when cort is naturally high, or if you eat carbs at the wrong time and want to try and blunt fat gains from it. He doesn't seem to mind cortisol in the morning though, since he skips breakfast, and that makes sense.
@DR.D Yes in his book especially this is what he recommends. He has some newer research on his bodyio site too where he discusses things he has learned and put into practice with many of the people he works with now. We kind of discussed on the side how he found some research that actually pointed to a larger rebound type of effect on the recovery process when the feeding was held off for about an hour. It is now what he is doing with himself and his clients. He said it will be in whatever his new book is going to be called and of course in his usual style he has multiple cited references. I wish I could go find it and give more references but it was mentioned on the podcast with him and Ben Pakulski. I doubt their are too many of those so could probably be found and I am pretty sure he mentioned the referenced material in there too. I am on a mailing list of his so I read tons of emails and things when I have time. So no idea where to find this info other than in that podcast.

I think this is it if anyone is interested. It is a good debate between them on that part as BPak believes in the no carbs other than around training but says to start taking in carbs about 30-45 minutes into the workout so you still get a nice GH response then the carbs slide in to mitigate damage. Anyway check it out if you have an hour.

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/ben-pakulski-podcast-muscle-expert-interviews-how-to-build/ben-pakulski-podcast-muscle-expert-interviews/e/012-muscle-expert-ben-pakulski-john-kiefer-discuss-carb-backloading-35610057

I get a much better pump from eating post workout than waiting 5 hours to eat. Almost like I took a GDA.
Yes there is no question that glut4 translocation is brought on by resistance training, and specifically explosive movement are better for this. SO for insulin sensitity purposes an explosive concentric is always a good idea even if you want to get in some TUT on the negative.
I mean in reality eating everything as gradually and as spread out throughout the day as you can is ideal for digestion but if your goal is to have as much protein enter your muscles as possible right after your workout then eat protein 1 or 2 hours before training so it starts absorbing during training then eat simple carbs right after training to spike your insulin.
I agree with this to a degree. I think or the most part this is very accurate when considering whole food protein feedings. I also think more than 4 protein feedings a day unless getting up in the middle of the night does more to keep up nitrogen retention than it does increase protein synthesis. Well because it is true according to the science. It runs in 4 hour cycles in general and you need a spike in protein to push it into naturally spiking MPS. When levels are more consistent the effect is less but muscle nitrogen is increased. Which is awesome but better for maintaining muscle than growing it.
That's what Poliquin always stressed too, the value of carbs immediately post-w/o.
Yeah, carbs right around the workout is no doubt an effective method, the question now is, is waiting an hour actually a tiny bit better? Maybe... Does this even being a serious consideration alleviate fear that muscle will eat itself if you don't feed right after a meal, ABSOLUTELY. Well for me anyway. If nothing else it could just be something that makes life more convenient for you with no other drawback...
I like Meadows, Scott Stevenson, and Skip Hill as far as dieting advice.
I think most people now are selling a gimmick so things are over complicated whether it’s nutrition, workouts, or supplementation.
What ever happened to getting strong as ****, high protein and pounding mostly clean food and when you start getting too soft pulling back carbs and fats?
Just keep a log so you know what you’re doing.

Scott has a pretty simple way he was talking about on Advices radio protein and carbs only around workouts and the rest of the time proteins and fats. It’s simple and easy.
Yeah he kind of follows a CBL style diet as he also recommends afternoon or early evening workouts when possible. For people with insulin sensitivity issues this dieting strategy of carbs periworkout works very well. Not as much for leaner guys, they tend to get a lot more carbs because they need the insulin to store anything.

I also agree that a lot of things are a gimmick or seem gimmicky, but many are just as effective and far more convenient, efficient, and or enjoyable.
You ask what happened to high protein, pounding mostly clean food and cutting back when you get too soft. Mostly is is a miserable process for most people. Science has shown us multiple pathways to the same results, and many of them are more efficient, convenient and enjoyable as mentioned above.

Most of the traditional bro foods don't really agree with my stomach, I don't have the time, desire, or attention span to want to eat several meals a day. I don't find a lot of it that palatable either. However I can always enjoy some meats and fats in the morning and for lunch then workout and have awesome foods after my workout while still enjoying all the same health benefits of someone eating bro foods and often even better health markers. I think it really just comes down to preferences, body and personality types. I love that there are so many ways to tackle someones goals via nutrition. I love that now we know that although each of the strategies have some weaknesses and strengths, many are totally sound options with pretty comparable results so it comes down to what is easiest for the individual to adhere to. All the rest is minutia in the 1% difference range and most are coming close enough to perfect for that 1% to make any difference at all.

I think this is a great topic and has so far been a great conversation.
 
HIT4ME

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@DR.D Yes in his book especially this is what he recommends. He has some newer research on his bodyio site too where he discusses things he has learned and put into practice with many of the people he works with now. We kind of discussed on the side how he found some research that actually pointed to a larger rebound type of effect on the recovery process when the feeding was held off for about an hour. It is now what he is doing with himself and his clients. He said it will be in whatever his new book is going to be called and of course in his usual style he has multiple cited references. I wish I could go find it and give more references but it was mentioned on the podcast with him and Ben Pakulski. I doubt their are too many of those so could probably be found and I am pretty sure he mentioned the referenced material in there too. I am on a mailing list of his so I read tons of emails and things when I have time. So no idea where to find this info other than in that podcast.

I think this is it if anyone is interested. It is a good debate between them on that part as BPak believes in the no carbs other than around training but says to start taking in carbs about 30-45 minutes into the workout so you still get a nice GH response then the carbs slide in to mitigate damage. Anyway check it out if you have an hour.

https://www.stitcher.com/podcast/ben-pakulski-podcast-muscle-expert-interviews-how-to-build/ben-pakulski-podcast-muscle-expert-interviews/e/012-muscle-expert-ben-pakulski-john-kiefer-discuss-carb-backloading-35610057

Yes there is no question that glut4 translocation is brought on by resistance training, and specifically explosive movement are better for this. SO for insulin sensitity purposes an explosive concentric is always a good idea even if you want to get in some TUT on the negative.
I agree with this to a degree. I think or the most part this is very accurate when considering whole food protein feedings. I also think more than 4 protein feedings a day unless getting up in the middle of the night does more to keep up nitrogen retention than it does increase protein synthesis. Well because it is true according to the science. It runs in 4 hour cycles in general and you need a spike in protein to push it into naturally spiking MPS. When levels are more consistent the effect is less but muscle nitrogen is increased. Which is awesome but better for maintaining muscle than growing it.
Yeah, carbs right around the workout is no doubt an effective method, the question now is, is waiting an hour actually a tiny bit better? Maybe... Does this even being a serious consideration alleviate fear that muscle will eat itself if you don't feed right after a meal, ABSOLUTELY. Well for me anyway. If nothing else it could just be something that makes life more convenient for you with no other drawback...
Yeah he kind of follows a CBL style diet as he also recommends afternoon or early evening workouts when possible. For people with insulin sensitivity issues this dieting strategy of carbs periworkout works very well. Not as much for leaner guys, they tend to get a lot more carbs because they need the insulin to store anything.

I also agree that a lot of things are a gimmick or seem gimmicky, but many are just as effective and far more convenient, efficient, and or enjoyable.
You ask what happened to high protein, pounding mostly clean food and cutting back when you get too soft. Mostly is is a miserable process for most people. Science has shown us multiple pathways to the same results, and many of them are more efficient, convenient and enjoyable as mentioned above.

Most of the traditional bro foods don't really agree with my stomach, I don't have the time, desire, or attention span to want to eat several meals a day. I don't find a lot of it that palatable either. However I can always enjoy some meats and fats in the morning and for lunch then workout and have awesome foods after my workout while still enjoying all the same health benefits of someone eating bro foods and often even better health markers. I think it really just comes down to preferences, body and personality types. I love that there are so many ways to tackle someones goals via nutrition. I love that now we know that although each of the strategies have some weaknesses and strengths, many are totally sound options with pretty comparable results so it comes down to what is easiest for the individual to adhere to. All the rest is minutia in the 1% difference range and most are coming close enough to perfect for that 1% to make any difference at all.

I think this is a great topic and has so far been a great conversation.
Oh man. You and I can be way too thorough!

I have not read much of the CBL book, and I need too. Thanks for the help on that a few months ago - I appreciate it and will get to it.

Either from cbl or from something you once said, it seems to me that a big part of CBL that is easily overlooked is the idea that once muscle cells have glucose in them, they don't let go of it - they burn it. And it seems to me that this is a huge part of understanding the diet unless I am mistaken....

It seems like going lower carb and the majority of the time is spent really sensitizing you to carbs...then you workout and deplete muscle glycogen stores. But the workout also increases glut4 which, combined with the GH and all the time spent carb sensitizing, creates a situation where you can really carb up and the muscles suck it all up so fast it is hard to use the carbs for fat storage. And of course, this method likely also increases the amount you can store by kind of force feeding?

Is that on the right path?
 
HIT4ME

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Also, the idea that you will start breaking down muscle if you don't get your protonz in right after a workout is non-sensical. It would be a failure of evolution to combat muscle damage with more muscle damage...but that us just me.
 

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Also, the idea that you will start breaking down muscle if you don't get your protonz in right after a workout is non-sensical. It would be a failure of evolution to combat muscle damage with more muscle damage...but that us just me.
I always do as soon as possible but that’s just because I’m cramming in so much food a day that i have to. I do believe though that guys in the upper levels of the sport need to maximize every thing no matter how small of a difference it makes. A few of those small and seemingly minuscule things do add up. Maybe not at first but I believe they do over time.
I think if somebody just really locked in and didn’t miss a meal or a workout and did everything as close to perfect as possible for even 6months you would have a completely different looking person that would blow most average gym goers who had been training for a few years away.
 
HIT4ME

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I always do as soon as possible but that’s just because I’m cramming in so much food a day that i have to. I do believe though that guys in the upper levels of the sport need to maximize every thing no matter how small of a difference it makes. A few of those small and seemingly minuscule things do add up. Maybe not at first but I believe they do over time.
I think if somebody just really locked in and didn’t miss a meal or a workout and did everything as close to perfect as possible for even 6months you would have a completely different looking person that would blow most average gym goers who had been training for a few years away.
Yes, you are probably right here. Hard work and consistency is the game. Just like everything in life, 6 months of zoned in, crazy effort can change a ton.
 
MrKleen73

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Oh man. You and I can be way too thorough!

I have not read much of the CBL book, and I need too. Thanks for the help on that a few months ago - I appreciate it and will get to it.

Either from cbl or from something you once said, it seems to me that a big part of CBL that is easily overlooked is the idea that once muscle cells have glucose in them, they don't let go of it - they burn it. And it seems to me that this is a huge part of understanding the diet unless I am mistaken....

It seems like going lower carb and the majority of the time is spent really sensitizing you to carbs...then you workout and deplete muscle glycogen stores. But the workout also increases glut4 which, combined with the GH and all the time spent carb sensitizing, creates a situation where you can really carb up and the muscles suck it all up so fast it is hard to use the carbs for fat storage. And of course, this method likely also increases the amount you can store by kind of force feeding?

Is that on the right path?
Yes very much so! Sorry it took me a bit to get back in here.
I always do as soon as possible but that’s just because I’m cramming in so much food a day that i have to. I do believe though that guys in the upper levels of the sport need to maximize every thing no matter how small of a difference it makes. A few of those small and seemingly minuscule things do add up. Maybe not at first but I believe they do over time.
I think if somebody just really locked in and didn’t miss a meal or a workout and did everything as close to perfect as possible for even 6months you would have a completely different looking person that would blow most average gym goers who had been training for a few years away.
Absolutely and for those competing 4 or 5 things that add up to a 1% increase in results can be the difference between 1st and 2nd. However for most a lot of the minutia is simply not worth the extra effort.
Yes, you are probably right here. Hard work and consistency is the game. Just like everything in life, 6 months of zoned in, crazy effort can change a ton.
Oh man, 6 months of true focus in any area of my life would be life changing. I just have a hell of a time focusing on any one thing at a time and if so it is in phases... Such is the mind of an ADHD person... However every once in a while I muster up the ability to push something hard like that and the results are always impressive. Just wish I could do it consistently.
 
Spiritbohemian

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I'M not a body builder but i konw that if you get your proteinand vitamins etc. from natural things then nothing is better than that. but we all know if you are doing body building so you need more of protiens then the normal person needs then we use supplements. But some people looks like we are taking someting which is illegal or they taunt us that you have made your body with the help of supplements. If anyone who think he/she needs to take supplemnets than there is no problem. But natural things should be our priority.
That's what i think.
Spiritbohemian
 

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