Amino Nitrate Patent

[De__eB]

Like I said, they have not done an exhaustive search. #6 has to be the one TL is most concerned about to begin with.

You can say they weren't exhaustive but uh, this is nearing the end of the line for challenging the patents.

To force another round of re-examination or introduce further evidence would require another company to file another lawsuit, which would take another year to work out, and lead to another year of re-examination.

Like I said, there's potentially years to come on this issue

 

[De__eB]

BB and Netrition have the new non nitrate formula.

J3D Micro is still listed with it, at least on BB

 

[Hydra]

You can say they weren't exhaustive but uh, this is nearing the end of the line for challenging the patents.

To force another round of re-examination or introduce further evidence would require another company to file another lawsuit, which would take another year to work out, and lead to another year of re-examination.

Like I said, there's potentially years to come on this issue

There are 150 lawsuits in process over Creatine Nitrate. Evidence can be introduced in any one of those suits. I agree completely though this is going to go on for awhile and as of right now creatine nitrate is out.

 

[De__eB]

There are 150 lawsuits in process over Creatine Nitrate. Evidence can be introduced in any one of those suits. I agree completely though this is going to go on for awhile and as of right now creatine nitrate is out.

Assuming there's no further extension application, we should find out by the end of October whether Creatine Nitrate is out for good or not (Assuming TL uses up to the deadline in early September to try to figure out how to overcome the last point of rejection, and then the PTO takes about 2 months to respond like they have been for each other round of back and forth in the Re-Exam process)

 

[Hydra]

To the best of my knowledge USP recently took arginine nitrate out of Yoked (http://www.stack3d.com/2014/07/usp-yok3d-new.html) and I thought USP may have removed it from Jacked Advanced on BB.com. Did it have anything to do with the final rejection notice of these patents?

J3D Micro is still listed with it, at least on BB

I said Yoked and I thought Jacked Advanced. I didnt look at Micro.

 

[thebigt]

Also, lawyers don't right the laws, Congress does. And many congressmen don't understand or read most of what they sign.

but alas...236 out of 540 congress members hold law degrees...also it would be my bet that members of congress don't write any laws-they have subordinates for that, all they do is sign them..... i would be willing to bet that you are wrong, lawyers do write the laws!!!!

 

[kissdadookie]

but alas...236 out of 540 congress members hold law degrees...also it would be my bet that members of congress don't write any laws-they have subordinates for that, all they do is sign them..... i would be willing to bet that you are wrong, lawyers do write the laws!!!!

But you're not a lawyer unless you pass the bar... and that only qualifies you to practice in the state you passed the bar at The degree basically means little to nothing since you still can't practice law until you pass the bar.

 

[thebigt]

But you're not a lawyer unless you pass the bar... and that only qualifies you to practice in the state you passed the bar at The degree basically means little to nothing since you still can't practice law until you pass the bar.

so your opinion is that lawyers don't write the laws?

 

[kissdadookie]

so your opinion is that lawyers don't write the laws?

Traditionally, practicing lawyers help set precedents in the cases they are in. Law making is supposedly a group effort... supposedly It's also supposedly to have some influence by the populace... supposedly, since supposedly we live in a democracy and our voices supposedly matter... supposedly

To get more technical, lawyers are really there to interpret the laws as well as provide client guidance/support/defense/etc.

 

[thebigt]

Traditionally, practicing lawyers help set precedents in the cases they are in. Law making is supposedly a group effort... supposedly It's also supposedly to have some influence by the populace... supposedly, since supposedly we live in a democracy and our voices supposedly matter... supposedly

To get more technical, lawyers are really there to interpret the laws as well as provide client guidance/support/defense/etc.

to narrow it down...the actual writing of laws is done by lawyers, agreed?

 

[De__eB]

Traditionally, practicing lawyers help set precedents in the cases they are in. Law making is supposedly a group effort... supposedly It's also supposedly to have some influence by the populace... supposedly, since supposedly we live in a democracy and our voices supposedly matter... supposedly

To get more technical, lawyers are really there to interpret the laws as well as provide client guidance/support/defense/etc.

Who exactly do you think drafts legislation (hint: it's not your local congressperson)

 

[kissdadookie]

to narrow it down...the actual writing of laws is done by lawyers, agreed?

I highly doubt it. I work in a firm. A practicing lawyer (if you just have a law degree, it does not make you a lawyer) typically does not go into that profession to make laws. That is simply not what they do nor is that what their education has been focused on. It's mainly focused on trial procedurals, memorizing precedents, learning how to interpret the law, etc.

Who exactly do you think drafts legislation (hint: it's not your local congressperson)

That's kind of very different than coming up with the legislation. They are using the staff lawyers to more or less do the reference work to assure that the legislation they are drafting does not conflict with any existing legislation/precedents. As well as making sure the correct verbiage is used.

 

[thebigt]

I highly doubt it. I work in a firm. A practicing lawyer (if you just have a law degree, it does not make you a lawyer) typically does not go into that profession to make laws. That is simply not what they do nor is that what their education has been focused on. It's mainly focused on trial procedurals, memorizing precedents, learning how to interpret the law, etc.

lol...that is like saying a surgeon is not a doctor. of course there are specialties in law same as medicine but they all hold same titles with specialized training.

 

[thebigt]

Who exactly do you think drafts legislation (hint: it's not your local congressperson)

absolutely...

if you look at a bill of law, there is so much legalese that no one but a lawyer could have wrote it, lol.

 

[kissdadookie]

I highly doubt it. I work in a firm. A practicing lawyer (if you just have a law degree, it does not make you a lawyer) typically does not go into that profession to make laws. That is simply not what they do nor is that what their education has been focused on. It's mainly focused on trial procedurals, memorizing precedents, learning how to interpret the law, etc.

lol...that is like saying a surgeon is not a doctor. of course there are specialties in law same as medicine but they all hold same titles with specialized training.

Not at all.

Coming up with the legislation is completely different than a staff lawyer drafting the legislation. The legislation essentially starts as off as an idea from some holder of a certain interest. However, you can't simply just present the idea like "Every street sign must now be red" and be done with it, correct verbiage must be used and research much be done and that's where a staff lawyer comes into play as their expertise is exactly both those things (cross referencing with existing law as well as understanding correct legal verbiage) along with the myriad of expert groups/individuals whom would review the draft of the legislation. But the idea for the legislation, the intent, the drive for the new piece of law, it's most likely not coming from a lawyer. That's not what lawyers do or are really trained to do. They interpret the law, they don't actually come up with new laws.

As an aside, this also leads into special interest groups and lobbyists. A lot of legislation is being driven from these groups and their lobbyists, let's be realistic here, it's highly doubtful any of the are lawyers or have ever studied law

 

[Hydra]

Aside from the above about who makes laws and correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there something about TL having a patent that covers any amino acid mixed with a nitrate like potassium nitrate? The new changes to the claims removes that.

 

[thebigt]

Not at all.

Coming up with the legislation is completely different than a staff lawyer drafting the legislation. The legislation essentially starts as off as an idea from some holder of a certain interest. However, you can't simply just present the idea like "Every street sign must now be red" and be done with it, correct verbiage must be used and research much be done and that's where a staff lawyer comes into play as their expertise is exactly both those things (cross referencing with existing law as well as understanding correct legal verbiage) along with the myriad of expert groups/individuals whom would review the draft of the legislation. But the idea for the legislation, the intent, the drive for the new piece of law, it's most likely not coming from a lawyer. That's not what lawyers do or are really trained to do. They interpret the law, they don't actually come up with new laws.

As an aside, this also leads into special interest groups and lobbyists. A lot of legislation is being driven from these groups and their lobbyists, let's be realistic here, it's highly doubtful any of the are lawyers or have ever studied law

technically speaking drafting legislation IS writing the law.

a clever lawyer could make a draft appear to represent something, but word it so that it actually means the opposite...look at supreme court rulings, i could read a ruling handed down and not even know what side they ruled on, until it was interpreted into english from legalese.

 

[De__eB]

Aside from the above about who makes laws and correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't there something about TL having a patent that covers any amino acid mixed with a nitrate like potassium nitrate? The new changes to the claims removes that.

"The rejection of claims 3-10 under 35 USC 112, second paragraph is withdrawn because the Patent Owner has clarified that variable "y" in amended claims 3-10 represents either a nitrate anion or a nitrite anion but does not represent mixed salts such as sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate.

 

[Hydra]

"The rejection of claims 3-10 under 35 USC 112, second paragraph is withdrawn because the Patent Owner has clarified that variable "y" in amended claims 3-10 represents either a nitrate anion or a nitrite anion but does not represent mixed salts such as sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate.

So mixing is now ok.

 

[thebigt]

"The rejection of claims 3-10 under 35 USC 112, second paragraph is withdrawn because the Patent Owner has clarified that variable "y" in amended claims 3-10 represents either a nitrate anion or a nitrite anion but does not represent mixed salts such as sodium nitrate or potassium nitrate.

this is good for us, right?

 

[Hydra]

this is good for us, right?

The whole thing is good. No patent on creatine, leucine or arginine and companies can mix potassium nitrate with any other aminos. Didnt iForce have a product like that at one time?

 

[De__eB]

So mixing is now ok.

For the next 10 months until 14/065367 et. al. become published applications at least. When they narrowed their claims, they also appear to have introduced a new series of 'use' patents for a number of nitrate-related claims that is supposed to cover those cases.

 

[kissdadookie]

technically speaking drafting legislation IS writing the law.

a clever lawyer could make a draft appear to represent something, but word it so that it actually means the opposite...look at supreme court rulings, i could read a ruling handed down and not even know what side they ruled on, until it was interpreted into english from legalese.

Technically speaking, yes. However, legislations and laws at the end of the day starts off as an abstract idea. The idea is where the value lies. Everything else is just busy work to get the idea implemented.

A clever lawyer however would not actually be able to misrepresent an idea It only appears to look like it's misrepresenting an idea if you don't read legalese. What a clever lawyer actually does is often times look for possible loopholes/flaws in existing legislature/precedents/etc. and possible stretch out the interpretation to aid in their argument. That's what a clever lawyer ultimately and typically does.

Remember, there is a review process that goes on, it's not just lawyers on one side trying to confuse the lay people on the other side, both sides have (or should have) lawyers or folks that are well versed in legalese. A lawyer trying to be tricky with legalese is kind of a losing battle there since they are mostly dealing with their own kind on the other side.

 

[Hydra]

For the next 10 months until 14/065367 et. al. become published applications at least. When they narrowed their claims, they also appear to have introduced a new series of 'use' patents for a number of nitrate-related claims that is supposed to cover those cases.

Use patents are a whole different animal then pretending to have invented the compound to begin with. If there is no valid claim to the invention of the compound then anyone will be able to use it and any "use" patents will come under heavy fire.

 

[thebigt]

Technically speaking, yes. However, legislations and laws at the end of the day starts off as an abstract idea. The idea is where the value lies. Everything else is just busy work to get the idea implemented.

A clever lawyer however would not actually be able to misrepresent an idea It only appears to look like it's misrepresenting an idea if you don't read legalese. What a clever lawyer actually does is often times look for possible loopholes/flaws in existing legislature/precedents/etc. and possible stretch out the interpretation to aid in their argument. That's what a clever lawyer ultimately and typically does.

Remember, there is a review process that goes on, it's not just lawyers on one side trying to confuse the lay people on the other side, both sides have (or should have) lawyers or folks that are well versed in legalese. A lawyer trying to be tricky with legalese is kind of a losing battle there since they are mostly dealing with their own kind on the other side.

unless both sides are trying to trick us non-legalese speakers...sorry i just see hidden agendas in everything legal/political.

 

[kissdadookie]

Use patents are a whole different animal then pretending to have invented the compound to begin with. If there is no valid claim to the invention of the compound then anyone will be able to use it and any "use" patents will come under heavy fire.

I wonder how the new use approach will play out for them. I would think that one could make an argument that the new use is in fact inherent to the nitric oxide boosting nature of the nitrates, so would the new use be considered obvious? Nitrates boosting nitric oxide which leads to better blood flow which leads to better nutrient delivery regardless of it being an amino or not.

unless both sides are trying to trick us non-legalese speakers...sorry i just see hidden agendas in everything legal/political.

It's cool Both sides are probably trying to screw us, the Joe Publics.

 

[De__eB]

Would you two learn to quote please?

 

[thebigt]

The whole thing is good. No patent on creatine, leucine or arginine and companies can mix potassium nitrate with any other aminos. Didnt iForce have a product like that at one time?

this is very good news, i used to use creatine nitrate often.

i-force still has potassium nitrate i believe.

 

[thebigt]

Would you two learn to quote please?

sorry, just really interested in this......good stuff right here!!!!

 

[Hydra]

I wonder how the new use approach will play out for them. I would think that one could make an argument that the new use is in fact inherent to the nitric oxide boosting nature of the nitrates, so would the new use be considered obvious? Nitrates boosting nitric oxide which leads to better blood flow which leads to better nutrient delivery regardless of it being an amino or not.



It's cool Both sides are probably trying to screw us, the Joe Publics.

I think one could too. Most of these compounds were invented a long time ago. The properties of nitrates have been known for a long time as well. It would seem fairly easy to make the argument that using a non-patented ingredient like creatine nitrate or creatine mixed with potassium nitrate will do obvious and previously known things.

 

[Hydra]

this is very good news, i used to use creatine nitrate often.

i-force still has potassium nitrate i believe.

But didnt they have a product that included it with other aminos or something? I could be totally wrong and misremembering it.

 

[kissdadookie]

I think one could too. Most of these compounds were invented a long time ago. The properties of nitrates have been known for a long time as well. It would seem fairly easy to make the argument that using a non-patented ingredient like creatine nitrate or creatine mixed with potassium nitrate will do obvious and previously known things.

I mean, it's not that much of a leap to go:

Nitrates -> NO boost -> boost in delivery/circulation of any nutrient in serum.

The whole nitrates bonded to an amino concept apart from being able to create a specific chemical compound, was kind of an arbitrary thing done for the purpose of creating that specific chemical compound. Doesn't the nitrate disassociated from the amino acid anyway when one ingests the stuff and basically could have done the same thing by ingesting the two as non-bonded separate compounds?

 

[thebigt]

But didnt they have a product that included it with other aminos or something? I could be totally wrong and misremembering it.

tropinol xp has potassium nitrates, along with fadogia epimedium zinc and a few other ing's. but celucor has alpha aminos which has luecine nitrate with a amino acid blend. actually celucor has a ton of products with nitrates.

 

[kissdadookie]

tropinol xp has potassium nitrates, along with fadogia epimedium zinc and a few other ing's. but celucor has alpha aminos which has luecine nitrate with a amino acid blend. actually celucor has a ton of products with nitrates.

Cellucor actually does license from RK and then proudly displays the nitrate logos

 

[thebigt]

Cellucor actually does license from RK and then proudly displays the nitrate logos

didn't know that!!!

 

[kissdadookie]

didn't know that!!!

MT does as well now

The betaine nitrate they use for their Platinum Betaine product, that's RK licensed betaine nitrate son!

 

[thebigt]

MT does as well now

The betaine nitrate they use for their Platinum Betaine product, that's RK licensed betaine nitrate son!

lol...ok.

damn shame what those guys are doing. this is a black eye to free enterprise, imo.

 

[SwolenONE]

Every time I read through these it just makes me happy I'm not a lawyer lol.

 

[kissdadookie]

Every time I read through these it just makes me happy I'm not a lawyer lol.

You would recant than if you saw what they make and the perks.

 

[De__eB]

You would recant than if you saw what they make and the perks.

The perks of a 90 hour work week your first few years in the field and crippling quarter million in student loans to go to a top 14 law school? Not jealous.

 

[mr.cooper69]

I mean, it's not that much of a leap to go:

Nitrates -> NO boost -> boost in delivery/circulation of any nutrient in serum.

The whole nitrates bonded to an amino concept apart from being able to create a specific chemical compound, was kind of an arbitrary thing done for the purpose of creating that specific chemical compound. Doesn't the nitrate disassociated from the amino acid anyway when one ingests the stuff and basically could have done the same thing by ingesting the two as non-bonded separate compounds?

It's actually much more complex than this. Nitrates are quite pleiotropic and NO donation is only one of their ergogenic properties

 

[mr.cooper69]

The perks of a 90 hour work week your first few years in the field and crippling quarter million in student loans to go to a top 14 law school? Not jealous.

Agreed, people see the end result but don't understand the hell that goes into making that end result a reality

 

[USPlabsRep]

To the best of my knowledge USP recently took arginine nitrate out of Yoked (http://www.stack3d.com/2014/07/usp-yok3d-new.html) and I thought USP may have removed it from Jacked Advanced on BB.com. Did it have anything to do with the final rejection notice of these patents?

No, it's will be back into something i create..if Ron let's me of course

 

[jamesm11]

The perks of a 90 hour work week your first few years in the field and crippling quarter million in student loans to go to a top 14 law school? Not jealous.

If you pay full price for undergrad and law school to get $250k in debt then you're doing it wrong.

 

[FireRescue]

You would recant than if you saw what they make and the perks.

Having attended law school I wanted to comment on this topic. Becoming an attorney does not automatically come with a great paycheck and/or nice perks. Even after many years of ****ty hours and very mediocre pay (especially considering what you spent to earn a JD) you are not guaranteed to live an opulent lifestyle. There are many attorneys who never make it to a six figure paycheck (and for some that may be their personal choice depending on exactly how they chose to apply their degree). According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics the median salary of attorneys in the US was $113,000, meaning 1/2 of attorneys in the US earned less than $113,000. Certainly 113k would be a nice paycheck especially here in West Michigan where it would go a long ways to a very nice lifestyle. However in other parts of the country that may not allow you to lease that new CL Class Mercedes every two/three years

Sorry to get off topic.

 

[kissdadookie]

Having attended law school I wanted to comment on this topic. Becoming an attorney does not automatically come with a great paycheck and/or nice perks. Even after many years of ****ty hours and very mediocre pay (especially considering what you spent to earn a JD) you are not guaranteed to live an opulent lifestyle. There are many attorneys who never make it to a six figure paycheck (and for some that may be their personal choice depending on exactly how they chose to apply their degree). According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics the median salary of attorneys in the US was $113,000, meaning 1/2 of attorneys in the US earned less than $113,000. Certainly 113k would be a nice paycheck especially here in West Michigan where it would go a long ways to a very nice lifestyle. However in other parts of the country that may not allow you to lease that new CL Class Mercedes every two/three years

Sorry to get off topic.

You forgot to mention that the pay and perks are directly correlated with what firm you end up at

 

[kissdadookie]

The perks of a 90 hour work week your first few years in the field and crippling quarter million in student loans to go to a top 14 law school? Not jealous.

I guess it depends on the firm you end up at I don't think you do end up with a quarter million in loans unless you decide to pay for your entire education exclusively with loans

 

[De__eB]

I guess it depends on the firm you end up at I don't think you do end up with a quarter million in loans unless you decide to pay for your entire education exclusively with loans

If you already have the money to go to law school, then needing to go to law school to make money isn't a necessity

 

[kissdadookie]

If you already have the money to go to law school, then needing to go to law school to make money isn't a necessity

Nah brah, that's not how us Asians do it

 

[De__eB]

Nah brah, that's not how us Asians do it

You just get disowned for not getting A's