American Kids: 25th in Competence, 1st in Confidence
- Thread starter B5150
- Start date
B5150
Legend
I was being sarcastic.
Confidence is worthless without the intellectual capacity to back it up.
Even worse, our society has encouraged our children to think they are winners when in actuality they are not. There is no true competition anymore - everyone makes the team, we don't keep score, etc. I have some bad news - the real world is very competitive and there are winners and losers.
Use your confidence to read again what I posted - "a study that reveals that among 30 developed countries, American kids rank 25th and 21st in math and science respectively".
Confidence is worthless without the intellectual capacity to back it up.
Even worse, our society has encouraged our children to think they are winners when in actuality they are not. There is no true competition anymore - everyone makes the team, we don't keep score, etc. I have some bad news - the real world is very competitive and there are winners and losers.
Use your confidence to read again what I posted - "a study that reveals that among 30 developed countries, American kids rank 25th and 21st in math and science respectively".
raulob72
Well-known member
Well I was trying to be nice,anyway you are right ,at the gym I talk to a lot of teachers and they said that kids are falling behind really bad,they blame the parents in a way because ,there is a lot of kids on 3rd grade that can't read or even spell their name and because of the economy ,both parents work,or because are kids of single parents,or both work 2 jobs and nobody pays attention to this kids anymore!!
tattoopierced1
Guest
to say this is frightening is an understatement.
AE14
Board Sponsor
Agree 100%. Parents have done a downright awful job in enforcing to their kids that they are all "special" and all belong in ivy league schools and cant fail. Helicopter and lawnmower parents are a plague on our society.
DAdams91982
Board Sponsor
Let's not forget the social leech of the public school system that has failed us since day one.
There is nothing wrong with boosting your child's confidence regardless of their level. Are you really going to say something like "Sorry honey, you do not belong in college, here is a spatula so you can work down at Hardee's when you get older?" Seriously, I don't get your sentiment. Do you really downplay what your children can accomplish in life?
AE14
Board Sponsor
my parents were very honest with me. When I sucked at something they told me, however, it was always followed with "work harder at it, and you could do better".
I have interacted with parents who thought their child was Einstein, when in reality, they struggle with very basic concepts. Did you know the story of Abraham from the bible is about Lincoln? Neither did I until this child told me that.
I look for realism. I do the same thing with my own child. It is not downplaying it. However, if she struggles and still wants to go to college I would suggest community college to gauge where she is.
There is nothing wrong with people not going to college, not everyone belongs.
T-AD
Well-known member
We're number 1!! Woooo!!!! I'm going to go use my confidence to push kids off bridges today just to celebrate this drastic achievement.
Seriously, this place is sad anymore. I refer to it as the "Wussification of America". Between the dumbing down of nearly every aspect of our lives to the forced "No Child Left Behind" crap, there has been NOTHING done for the current crop of America's "Best n Britest" (spelling error intentional) that is to their benefit. I don't blame the kids. No, F that. I BLAME EVERYONE. Kids are retarded. Take that as you will. Parents are retarding them, teachers can't help them because the politics of the education system is retarding them. Schools can't help because budgets are retarding them, government retarded, and so on. From the top down, let's face it - EVERYONE IS F'N RETARDED!!!
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Reminds me of a George Carlin quote: "Kids are like any other group out there; a few winners and a whole lot of losers."
AE14
Board Sponsor
this is quite true.
When I say this top people they ask me about my daughter. I always respond the same
"to me she is and always will be special, however, she is going to have to succeed and fail to truly grow up"
AE14
Board Sponsor
reps to you good sir. Schools cant help them. Parents are friggin litigious, and as a result I have seen kids receive grades they didnt earn out of fear. The teacher was told to give the grade....so they had to.
Parents refuse to let their kids fail, as they are so concerned what it will do to their confidence and ego. WTF is that? Life is hard and you are going to fail. I got an email from a parent of an 18 year old last year complaining. I asked (ever so nicely) what they were going to do the next year when their child went away to school and they were unhappy about a grade. They had nothing to say
T-AD
Well-known member
Precisely, and this is a big reason that I never really did anything with my teaching degree. I let my certification lapse and didn't even bother to renew to keep it current because I can't see myself in the position to be bullied by school administrators, parents, and even the silly li'l kids. What I do now is still teaching, in a manner of speaking (not the AX rep thing), and I have the autonomy to do it how I want. Perhaps I'm too conservative, or perhaps I actually care. Silly me...reps to you good sir. Schools cant help them. Parents are friggin litigious, and as a result I have seen kids receive grades they didnt earn out of fear. The teacher was told to give the grade....so they had to.
Parents refuse to let their kids fail, as they are so concerned what it will do to their confidence and ego. WTF is that? Life is hard and you are going to fail. I got an email from a parent of an 18 year old last year complaining. I asked (ever so nicely) what they were going to do the next year when their child went away to school and they were unhappy about a grade. They had nothing to say
AE14
Board Sponsor
It is tough at times, I love what I do, but there is an overarching frustration in education now. Especially, in NJ
Irish Cannon
Legend
It's sort of a paradox, but I strongly believe that Academia has ruined this country.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
I think I kinda see where you're coming from, but can you elaborate more?
Irish Cannon
Legend
Well, it's a little far off from what the original post was about, but I believe the issue that's being spoken of is rooted in them as a child by a poor school system and weak parents, and carries through their adult life, being further reinforced through college and upper-academia. I believe it's ruining our country.
I'm a believer in experience and first-hand knowledge on most subjects. We have people in high office making decisions about things based on what they're told or have learned, not what they've experienced or done through their life. - Should legislatures be making decisions for our military when they've never served a day in their life?
I have a college degree. I'm not against college, but I'm against the institution and the idea that achieving a degree means that you're educated. - Have you ever read Atlas Shrugged or The Fountainhead? - Both touch on this subject a good deal.
A Bachelor's Degree is the new High School Diploma, and what does it mean? Fcking nothing. It's worthless other than to show that you can complete something you start, and even that's arguable.
It's just further proof that intelligence and wisdom are two totally different things.
AE14
Board Sponsor
I will grant you certain points. Typically, the BA (or BS) are the new HS diploma, and do not guarantee you a job. However, that is also more an economic issue than it is anything else.
I also concur that their is a major difference between educated intelligence and practical intelligence. Based on your comments it seems that you have a great deal of frustration in the typical education system, correct?
Rodja
Board Sponsor
I agree with you that a degree does not equal intelligence and that a BS/BA is merely a stepping stone to something higher.
EasyEJL
Never enough
Thats just rationalization. Those same parents have the time to spend on facebook, watching football and basketball, getting drunk or high, etc.
EasyEJL
Never enough
And yet, it was the teachers unions and the liberal progressives who fought for moronic things like changing the ink color to purple instead of red because a red F could harm the child's psyche.
toughchick401
Well-known member
I give class after class at the hospital to kids ages 12-17 who argue with me NIGHTLY that they don't need to get a GED, or graduate high school, I had this argument last night with a 17 year old male, who looked me dead in the eye and said..."I'm gonna hustle I answer to god and god only"..... I was speechless and saddened to find out he was serious, and nothing I could say would sway him.
I am finding it more common that kids that age are going to "beat the system" as they tell me... I am trying and can't wait to purchase the movie, waiting for superman, so I can show it to them, perhaps seeing is believing....
TC
I am finding it more common that kids that age are going to "beat the system" as they tell me... I am trying and can't wait to purchase the movie, waiting for superman, so I can show it to them, perhaps seeing is believing....
TC
mich29
Board Sponsor
I blame the schools,the parents,the media its all one big pile of **** rolled together.I knew things were going to get bad when they started making students have to pass standard tests in order to graduate from high school.now teachers pretty much have to teach only the items needed in order for the kids to pass or risk getting fired messing up school funds,grants etc.The whole school system needs fixed.Don't even get me started on the bad teachers,admins,parents and etc I could go on for days.Only thing that is going save these kids is parents being full time parents and staying on their kids and teaching them because the schools and etc can't/won't etc.
EasyEJL
Never enough
How else precisely are you going to measure and test for their learning level otherwise? Chicken bones thrown in the air? Let the teachers come up with the tests?
wrong here, so far as I know no states have managed to get anything like this past the teachers union, as they are a big enough voting block that politicians are too afraid to do it.
toughchick401
Well-known member
I recently had a kid come in and tell me "My mom beat my teacher up because I didn't get a A", I asked "did you deserve it", her answer "who cares".... I was very upset at this, being a teacher myself I had the pleasure of teaching preschool special ed children, Loved it. I decided to go back to school for nursing so I can have options, so I left for now, I see more people blaming the teachers, while I agree there are teachers who should retire, I also think parents are failing the children, there was a earlier post, of parents going on facebook, drinking, partying, I see that all the time, we come from a broken society as far as parents, divorced, single parents, and I AM NOT BLAMING at all, before someone blasts me for this... I am simply stating an opinion....
Someone once told me and god I see it everyday and I agree with this, Anyone can have a kid but the process to adopt a pet is crazy......it boggles my mind, so I sit back and work on my little piece of the pie, can't save everyone but I do what I can
AE14
Board Sponsor
I have personal experience with this. It was not the union, it was the parents (liberal and conservative). You should know that when it comes to their kids, their political affiliation disappears, and they are all "progressive liberals"
I was not allowed to give an F. It had to be an E.
This is not a political issue E, I know for you it is though :argue:
AE14
Board Sponsor
reps to you!!!
EasyEJL
Never enough
I'm not sure how true that is. Last year, I hoped for my daughter to get left back as a poignant lesson that not keeping up with your responsibilities has you miss out on things, but due to the ridiculous way students are forced forwards now, she passed. This year she is doing better anyway so far, thank god
AE14
Board Sponsor
Are you saying that her being pushed forward was a result of the union and politics? Not sure I get where you are going.
I am glad to hear she is doing better though
EasyEJL
Never enough
No, just I'm a realist, and would rather see her fail because she deserves to fail due to her grades while in the 8th grade, rather than just being shoved into high school anyhow. Nowadays they run on quality points here, and you can basically fail 3 out of 4 semesters in reading and somehow still graduate.
AE14
Board Sponsor
why do you think that is? From my experience (in the districts I have worked and know peple in) there have been parental complaints and even fraudulent law suits that have forced the issue.
I agree, if you fail you should receive your punishment, however, in most fairly competitive districts the parents will not let that happen
EasyEJL
Never enough
Thats something i've just never understood. If my kid is a dumbass, or lazy, then they deserve to reap the rewards of that life. Graduating a child who doesn't have the skills to deal with the next grade up just means you are forced to shuffle them again the next year.
See thats a lot more insight into my actual political leanings
A doctrine of personal responsibility. Even at 13 you have a certain level of responsibility, and your personal choices will impact the rest of your life going forwards. Shelting a child from the negative impacts of their choices today means you encourage them to contine to make the same poor choices tomorrow.AE14
Board Sponsor
Thats something i've just never understood. If my kid is a dumbass, or lazy, then they deserve to reap the rewards of that life. Graduating a child who doesn't have the skills to deal with the next grade up just means you are forced to shuffle them again the next year.
See thats a lot more insight into my actual political leanings
couldnt agree more, parents and education together are crippling these kids. They believe that all they need to do is complain enough and there will not be any consequences. Its friggin ridiculous
mich29
Board Sponsor
This was very much passed years ago where if you didn't pass 1 of the 5 areas (reading,math,etc) of these once or twice a year tests you wouldn't be able to graduate high school.which I think is flat out stupid.Maybe things have changed since I went to hs( I hope) but I remember students every year worrying about these tests and I know a few that had to go around these tests in order to graduate and I know a few more who had to go through alternative schooling in order to graduate.
I know a bunch of teachers now who teach and they are pretty much confined to teaching 80% towards making sure the main tests are passed in order to ensure schools keep getting a good chunk of state money and etc every year.My point is teachers aren't allow to teach to educate rather they teach based on many other factors instead.What do we expect to happen to our kids as a nation when this is going on? This is where parents have to make up the gap or send their kids to alternative schooling.
mich29
Board Sponsor
I understand where your coming from I've seen/know parents and teachers who were part of the problem and those who were part of what teaching/parenting should be about. I firmly believe teachers should be paid ALOT more than they make currently.
SilentBob187
Well-known member
Well DUH!!
Wisdom influences the number of spells a divine spellcaster can cast per day, and the effectiveness of said spells. It also affects Will saving throws.
Intelligence influences the number of spells a preparation-based arcane spellcaster may cast per day, and the effectiveness of said spells. It also affects how many skill points a character gains per level.
Everybody knows that!!!! :head:
Charisma strikes again IRL as an overrated skill that's held in high regard in America. :toofunny:
Maybe we can roll for initiative and take back our education system! Apprenticeships for 2011! I could use a good pack mule. :burnout:
Hyperion
Member
I think children today are way too stressed when it comes to academics. The sheer pressure they are placed under to perform and excel is overwhelming even for adults, much less teenagers with hormone imbalances that just starting to figure out who they are.
Having grown up in two very different countries (UK and Greece) with very different education systems, I gather the Greek system resembles the American one more than the UK's, and speaking from personal experience, the more demanding a system is in terms of quantity of work, the less capable it is of actually transferring any real, usable knowledge to the children. Instead the are run ragged trying to remember a million different things and end-up just paying lip-service to some truly wonderful information rather than getting an educational basis to go on to university.
And I'm a law graduate (LLB and LLM) and I can tell you, the work-load I had in Greek high-school was tons more than what I had for my 5 years in Law. But which do you think I have a better understanding and appreciation of?
Having grown up in two very different countries (UK and Greece) with very different education systems, I gather the Greek system resembles the American one more than the UK's, and speaking from personal experience, the more demanding a system is in terms of quantity of work, the less capable it is of actually transferring any real, usable knowledge to the children. Instead the are run ragged trying to remember a million different things and end-up just paying lip-service to some truly wonderful information rather than getting an educational basis to go on to university.
And I'm a law graduate (LLB and LLM) and I can tell you, the work-load I had in Greek high-school was tons more than what I had for my 5 years in Law. But which do you think I have a better understanding and appreciation of?
AE14
Board Sponsor
As a teacher I would love to see more money into the proper channels of education, specifically salary. I am 10 years in, and very high academically on the guide, yet I make a lot less than many out there will less experience and fewer degrees.
Additionally, I agree that there are teachers who are part of the problem, and who need to be relieved of their classroom responsibilities. In that instance there needs to be a change to tenure to make it renewable. Lets say, every 2-3 years a teacher with 2 unsatisfactory observations goes before a committee to either confirm or deny their tenure.
mich29
Board Sponsor
yea I remember teachers who were 15,20 years deep into their careers and due to their seniority pretty much just coasted through years and couldn't be bumped out or could bump out other teachers out of jobs when cuts were made even though the teacher they were bumping out was more qualified or flat out a better teacher.At least around here this has created a cut throat environment.At one point I thought about being a teacher but the lack of money,stress and etc I decided to go into the business field.I have the utmost respect for teachers who are fighting the good fight.
Come to think of it this reminds me of a time when I complained about a teacher who had been teaching for 20+ years who pretty much just let our class watch movies all day and hardly ever taught.at first this was cool but after 2 months of this(boredom and I actually wanted to earn my A+) I expressed my displeasure to my parents who talked with the school who forced him to create a real lesson plan and had to have it reviewed by the high ups to ensure it wasn't just bs stuff .needless to say he was uphappy about this and outted me to the class without having to say it as the one who turned their fun time class into an actual class.
EasyEJL
Never enough
So are you suggesting that every teacher should be setting their own standards of "what an 8th grade science education" means? That is totally crazy. The standards are there because for the most part they aren't just standards that apply across state lines, but internationally as well. Its that way very purposefully so that if a child moves from one school district to another (whether in the same state or not) his skill levels should be on a par with what is taught regardless of where he goes. Its no different in college, what a student should understand after taking physics 101 is pretty much defined nationally, and any accredited university pretty much has a similar curriculum.
Again, tell me exactly how you expect to measure children's performance fairly to tell whether their learning is on grade level or not without standardized tests?
mich29
Board Sponsor
in a perfect world this would be the case but realistically its not.I'm sure you knew of a few schools growing up that often got the shaft when it came to getting the best books,teachers and etc.
standardized tests are fine just the way its setup should be changed.theres no reason for anyone not to graduate because of a standardized test.why not use the test results instead to help the student adjust their classes to strength the areas they are weak in for example.
EasyEJL
Never enough
whats funny is that somehow in those schools the cost per student is higher than in most of the good schools.
Teachers do that now. At my daughters high school (~2500) students for freshman english they have 5 different levels of classes. A kids standardized test scores (here the FCAT) affects which of those levels they get put into.
And as the results show, either kids are getting stupider year by year (a distinct possibility ala Idiocracy) or our education system has more failures than successes.
T-AD
Well-known member
Ok, just have to share this one. It's like a bit right out of some stand-up routine!
On Tuesdays, I pick up my daughter from daycare and head back up to pick up my wife from work an hour later. In the meantime, we stop at McD's for a happy meal. (It's the only time any of us eat fast food...yay!) I drive up yesterday, order, and pull around to the first window. Total is $7.41, so I dig out some change and hand the girl at the window the following:
One $5 bill
Two $2 bills
1 quarter
2 dimes
1 penny
To her credit, she counts the change before putting it into the register. I say 'her credit' because this is apparently the only smart thing she does while I'm there. This late-teen blondie counts it twice, pushes a few buttons on the screen, turns to someone inside that I can't see, and makes the gesture of counting with her fingers at this other person. The other girl walks over, they talk for about 5 seconds, she nods her head and walks away. Blondie puts the change in the drawer, looks at it for another 2 seconds, then pulls out a nickel, opens the window to give me my change, and says, "You know you handed me 46 cents?" My reply was, "Yes, I didn't have any nickels, but now I do."
I drove off wanting to go club a baby seal, or myself for that matter.
...and they let 'em vote & breed...
On Tuesdays, I pick up my daughter from daycare and head back up to pick up my wife from work an hour later. In the meantime, we stop at McD's for a happy meal. (It's the only time any of us eat fast food...yay!) I drive up yesterday, order, and pull around to the first window. Total is $7.41, so I dig out some change and hand the girl at the window the following:
One $5 bill
Two $2 bills
1 quarter
2 dimes
1 penny
To her credit, she counts the change before putting it into the register. I say 'her credit' because this is apparently the only smart thing she does while I'm there. This late-teen blondie counts it twice, pushes a few buttons on the screen, turns to someone inside that I can't see, and makes the gesture of counting with her fingers at this other person. The other girl walks over, they talk for about 5 seconds, she nods her head and walks away. Blondie puts the change in the drawer, looks at it for another 2 seconds, then pulls out a nickel, opens the window to give me my change, and says, "You know you handed me 46 cents?" My reply was, "Yes, I didn't have any nickels, but now I do."
I drove off wanting to go club a baby seal, or myself for that matter.
...and they let 'em vote & breed...