(3b,5a,6a,25R)-Spirostan-3,6-diol

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Grunt76 said:
You know what with all this stuff?

You know the message I get?

F**K all these FU**ING legal supplements, do hardcore cycles and tons of peptides in post cycle therapy.

This is just too mucking fuch BS all around, and wading through the posts to get to the science, while interesting, is too time-consuming to get to know which product will or won't add 10% effectiveness to my post cycle therapy.

The cookies are on the dark side, for sure.
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I just felt like repeating myself tonight. :ntome:
 
DR.D said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I officially challenge him to a Octagon style cage match! Put it on pay per view and we can settle this once and for all in front of everybody. Winner take all, loser STFU.
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Hahahahaha. I am in love with MMA so I would definitely watch. I may be Jiu Jitsu trained but I know D's got some good Judo ;).
 
I made my view known and I won't apologize for that. I feel consumer advocacy on any level is a good things. However it roots may have began. That was the blunt message behind my posting in this thread.

Furthermore, I do not rep for any company. Only for myself.

Lastly, yes, few have actually gotten on my nerves through this little escapade and I have apologized/worked out with all of them who deserved my attention in the first place.

But Erik2003, I'm sorry you feel that way. I always try to help whoever I can and will continue to do so. Thats your decision to take my ideals with more scrutiny now. I see that as a good thing, as I have always said that people need to draw thier own conclusions.

Either way, you have brought it to the conclusion that if it's none of my business maybe I should just stay out of it...actually I came to that quite a while ago with that whole SERM debate fiasco. But oh well...I never said everyone should listen to me. I have no sides, no connections...I am just someone who has a forum to voice his opinions and idea and I have.
 
macedaddy said:
:study:
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My gosh you AX reps have your heads so deep in eachothers asses. You can't tell us about the studies. You can't respond to the allegations. PA is here to cause trouble. Smoke and mirrors (whatever the fack that means).

PA you're a giver. I wouldn't wanna be in a jail cell with you. Keep giving it to them, I would really like to know if MassFX isnt bunk.
 
propho said:
First, thanks for bringing this to our attention..

Next, I've always wondered about a lot of products these days.. most people increase their protein and caloric intake when taking these products. Because of this I almost feel that they may be correcting areas of their diet where they lacked and then are led to believe that whatever product they are taking is what 'helped' them. Then there will always be the mental(placebo) boost that could also help them punch through a plateau.

Anybody else been thinking this?
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Hell - my diet is probably WORSE on MFX/HD.

I'm not sure the last log I ran where my diet was a significant amount better.
:ntome:
 
PumpingIron said:
But Erik2003, I'm sorry you feel that way. I always try to help whoever I can and will continue to do so. Thats your decision to take my ideals with more scrutiny now. I see that as a good thing, as I have always said that people need to draw thier own conclusions.

Either way, you have brought it to the conclusion that if it's none of my business maybe I should just stay out of it...actually I came to that quite a while ago with that whole SERM debate fiasco. But oh well...I never said everyone should listen to me. I have no sides, no connections...I am just someone who has a forum to voice his opinions and idea and I have.
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Damn I swear I thought you were a rep. As a rep a person has totally different responsibilities - there "opinion" is not longer private but one adopted by a comany. Personally I think your a stand up person. Swear I thought you had a rep posting near you avatar, and thus I thought your fell outside of your "professional obligation" - and this was the reason I can down on you. Other wise I totally agree with your posts, here and in other places, but please look at this thread and I think you will find a mass degridation of professionalism.

However, I think alot of others went alot farther at being crude.
 
Erik2003 said:
Sorry to say this, but your posts and reaction made you look like an ass - which is normally not your normal style - usually you come across as pretty smart on the subjects. Also normally, your input is accepted by many of us who may not have a lot of experience with PH's etc., but have lifted for awhile. However, today, your posting was hostile, immature, rude, not thought out, and worst of all, you brought insult to the company you rep for. Normally, I really listen to what you print, and I take your comments as pretty reliable. However, after today, I have to say, what your posts will be scrutinized because of your ranting and raving.
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ummmmmm.................:think:.................PumpingIron doesn't represent any company..........and I am not sure what you mean by talking about his attitude, but this entire thread is not worth the bandwidth it took to produce...................:blink:
 
macedaddy said:
ummmmmm.................:think:.................PumpingIron doesn't represent any company..........and I am not sure what you mean by talking about his attitude, but this entire thread is not worth the bandwidth it took to produce...................:blink:
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:head: :head: :goodpost: :rofl: :box:
 
Oh I get it now ! ALL SUPPLEMENTS SUCK but Patricks ! Now that you all know that you can stop reading and learning for yourself :)
 
FitnFirm said:
Oh I get it now ! ALL SUPPLEMENTS SUCK but Patricks ! Now that you all know that you can stop reading and learning for yourself :)
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I'm gonna go out and buy me sum of anyting dat has -OXO in the name now! They're all bound ta be his. Afteralll, Patrich is da man!!!

HA! Nice post, FnF!

(P.S. Long time no see, eh?)
 
DR.D said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again. I officially challenge him to a Octagon style cage match! Put it on pay per view and we can settle this once and for all in front of everybody. Winner take all, loser STFU.
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Have it be known that Dr. D is about 5% bodyfat ! I witnessed him getting it checked at the Olympia, He is rock hard muscle !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :box: Yes, I got to touch him too !!!!! :twisted:
 
timdull2 said:
I'm gonna go out and buy me sum of anyting dat has -OXO in the name now! They're all bound ta be his. Afteralll, Patrich is da man!!!

HA! Nice post, FnF!

(P.S. Long time no see, eh?)
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Ya, Patrick could save alot of typing if he just made one post on the good products, Im sure it wouldnt be many in his opinion. :rasp:
 
opinion:

PA is the only who has posted data to back his statements up, AX is making claims with "secrets" wtf is that. and i hate some of your prick filled representatives especially macedaddy, example PA posts a post with some intellectual data and then your reps response is childish, obviously they probably have no clue about what he's talking, about half the stuff PA posts from is scientific journals.

and pumpingiron i hope you realize you made some good points regarding ax, but as soon as they felt threatened they attacked you, and as soon as they realized you got offended they started backing down because your a respected member on the board and if you said something bad about their company obviously it would lead to less sales.

when i started to read PA's post at first, beside this one, i thought to myself wow this guy is a jerk, but you know what i think now he's just being honest or at least backs up what he says instead feeding everyone sh#t statements filled with words that trick the weak minded.

I have a formula for AX
over hyping products + missed product dates + promises with no scientific data + promising test results which never appear + some not all prick reps. = lost customer, i mean i only spent around maybe 300 dollars a year on your products so it probably won't hurt your pockets but since i use to buy stuff from you guys i thought you should know
 
Nice post PI, very well communicated. It truly shows a level head in thought process and making yourself clear to all parties involved. Me? I just think you'se a sexy b!tch....er I mean I like your um body er avatar....ahh ....umm...I mean good post :ntome:

PumpingIron said:
I made my view known and I won't apologize for that. I feel consumer advocacy on any level is a good things. However it roots may have began. That was the blunt message behind my posting in this thread.

Furthermore, I do not rep for any company. Only for myself.

Lastly, yes, few have actually gotten on my nerves through this little escapade and I have apologized/worked out with all of them who deserved my attention in the first place.

But Erik2003, I'm sorry you feel that way. I always try to help whoever I can and will continue to do so. Thats your decision to take my ideals with more scrutiny now. I see that as a good thing, as I have always said that people need to draw thier own conclusions.

Either way, you have brought it to the conclusion that if it's none of my business maybe I should just stay out of it...actually I came to that quite a while ago with that whole SERM debate fiasco. But oh well...I never said everyone should listen to me. I have no sides, no connections...I am just someone who has a forum to voice his opinions and idea and I have.
Click to expand...
 
rockhard_4eva said:
My gosh you AX reps have your heads so deep in eachothers asses. You can't tell us about the studies. You can't respond to the allegations. PA is here to cause trouble. Smoke and mirrors (whatever the fack that means).

PA you're a giver. I wouldn't wanna be in a jail cell with you. Keep giving it to them, I would really like to know if MassFX isnt bunk.
Click to expand...

I am sensing some serious @$$y overtones in your post, is there something you would like to cleanse yourself of, you are in a safe place here, we accept people of all lengths and girths here.......:ntome:
 
Erik2003 said:
Last, I think everyone (including you), and especially Dr. D, and PA owe everyone in the AM community an apology for their behavior in this post.

I know i get emotional. I don't feel happy about that and i understand how you feel. I just want you to understand where i come from and what this stuff means to me. I know everyone says its all some shrewd predatory business plot but i assure you that is the last thing it is.

For christs sake my company could be muscletech size if i did not insist on taking the high road all these years. i watch every word i say, every claim i make. just read my website and see how carefully i word everything. i act as though my damn chemistry advisor was critiquing it.

so just imagine how pissed i am when i have to compete against companies that play fast and loose with the facts, that don't research the compounds they introduce. that i know don't have half the brains or experience that i do

i take my job more seriously than anything. i pretty much care about nothing else in my life (sad as that may be)
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Please note the amount of strong posts here from non regular members with < 30 posts.

Guys you really should contribute to this community more, let your voices be heard not only in the drama threads. This only serves to discredit your POV's you are discussing.
 
Force of Green said:
Interesting point, although I find nothing wrong with people being expressive of perfectly normal human emotions. As a professional, I've done many things that are unprofessional. I tend to lose grasp of my emotions many times... sometimes I question if I'm bipolar!? Who knows...

I think that the comments made by the select individuals you've mentioned 'humanizes' us. There will always be opposing forces at one another and there will always be a conflict of opinion and fact, however, the views and statements expressed in everyday life (including this board) will not always be done so in a way that appeals to every active reader/poster.

I look at the comments that were made by certain people and just think... "What if he/she had been having a really bad day?" "What if the person isn't feeling too well at the moment and a certain comment with a context that we don't know, really hit home?" People make mistakes, people overreact, and people sometimes lose control.

Isn't life all about losing control?

I speak for myself on this, but no apology is necessary from ANYONE to me.
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sometimes i think people like to criticize me or other industry people on the board cuz it gives them a sense of empowerment. sort of like people like to call shame on a politician or an actor or whatever for expressing normal human emotions. emotions that when expressed by regular people are not even questioned

just cuz i am a supplement company owner does not make me goddam motherf8cking teresa. get real y'all
 
Patrick Arnold said:
Erik2003 said:
Last, I think everyone (including you), and especially Dr. D, and PA owe everyone in the AM community an apology for their behavior in this post.
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I know i get emotional. I don't feel happy about that and i understand how you feel. I just want you to understand where i come from and what this stuff means to me. I know everyone says its all some shrewd predatory business plot but i assure you that is the last thing it is.

For christs sake my company could be muscletech size if i did not insist on taking the high road all these years. i watch every word i say, every claim i make. just read my website and see how carefully i word everything. i act as though my damn chemistry advisor was critiquing it.

so just imagine how pissed i am when i have to compete against companies that play fast and loose with the facts, that don't research the compounds they introduce. that i know don't have half the brains or experience that i do

i take my job more seriously than anything. i pretty much care about nothing else in my life (sad as that may be)
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:whiner:
 
neoborn said:
Please note the amount of strong posts here from non regular members with < 30 posts.

Guys you really should contribute to this community more, let your voices be heard not only in the drama threads. This only serves to discredit your POV's you are discussing.
Click to expand...

Thank you Jesus Christ for another useless post...11 pages not enough for you????? Here is a post, who cares about new people posting. Apparently, who cares about AX answering questions would also be valid in the sentence above.
 
rockhard_4eva said:
Thank you Jesus Christ for another useless post...11 pages not enough for you????? Here is a post, who cares about new people posting. Apparently, who cares about AX answering questions would also be valid in the sentence above.
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somehow...............someone who posts:
rockhard_4eva said:
Id rape her. Sorry, is that what this thread is about.

Regardless, I'd do rape on her.
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doesn't seem to have as much credibility in my book at all! :stick:
 
Once again I must add that my true stance is that I do not hate or even dislike PA. I do honestly feel his frustration in business now that he has been made an example of. I have expressed to him multiple times how I feel about all of this and do rep him for his help in certain posts etc. Let that be clear.

Now how I speak to him in public is a different thing because if you act like a complete fckin pr!ck then you get talked to like a complete pr!ck. Doesn't mean I love him as a passionate human being any less.

As with all intarweb drama there are two sides to every coin. There are no resolutions to these situations, well not immediate anyway. The best thing PA or any one of you could do is to post the question with relative proof and then let the customers be the voices. There is nothing more powerful( I have forgotten how to spell powerfull since the release of the bulk powder product, please someone let me know :D ). So state your case then stfu.

Look at any of the witch hunts, there are no resolutions for the public, EPI, JW, Um Gaspari something or other, etc etc etc this will all just go away and be resolved as per the standard behind closed doors.

As a consumer you should be asking these questions before you buy the product, if you don't know what it is and need to know then find out!.

Heed these words, nothing good will come of this, it will be the same old outcome because this method of problem resolution does not work. This protocol is funk.

Take it to the company personally in emails, take it by phone, vote with your $$$'s

/rant

<3 to ALRI, Ergo, IBE, AX and any other company fighting to stay in business and to earn livings from all of this stuff.

and remember out of all of this stuff ....it's really only love that matters, we are all alike and essentially the same, when all is said and done we will become one again....we will all see in the end what was really worthwhile while living here in the short breath / span we exist as we are now....

love to you all

<3 Neoborn <3

Patrick Arnold said:
Erik2003 said:
Last, I think everyone (including you), and especially Dr. D, and PA owe everyone in the AM community an apology for their behavior in this post.

I know i get emotional. I don't feel happy about that and i understand how you feel. I just want you to understand where i come from and what this stuff means to me. I know everyone says its all some shrewd predatory business plot but i assure you that is the last thing it is.

For christs sake my company could be muscletech size if i did not insist on taking the high road all these years. i watch every word i say, every claim i make. just read my website and see how carefully i word everything. i act as though my damn chemistry advisor was critiquing it.

so just imagine how pissed i am when i have to compete against companies that play fast and loose with the facts, that don't research the compounds they introduce. that i know don't have half the brains or experience that i do

i take my job more seriously than anything. i pretty much care about nothing else in my life (sad as that may be)
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Erik2003 said:
Damn I swear I thought you were a rep. As a rep a person has totally different responsibilities - there "opinion" is not longer private but one adopted by a comany. Personally I think your a stand up person. Swear I thought you had a rep posting near you avatar, and thus I thought your fell outside of your "professional obligation" - and this was the reason I can down on you. Other wise I totally agree with your posts, here and in other places, but please look at this thread and I think you will find a mass degridation of professionalism.

However, I think alot of others went alot farther at being crude.
Click to expand...


i dunno about you but i would have respect for a rep that spoke his mind about something instead of shutting up or saying the opposite to please the company. f*ck the free supplements, its not worth being a b*tch
 
StellaArtois said:
opinion:

PA is the only who has posted data to back his statements up, AX is making claims with "secrets" wtf is that. and i hate some of your prick filled representatives especially macedaddy, example PA posts a post with some intellectual data and then your reps response is childish, obviously they probably have no clue about what he's talking, about half the stuff PA posts from is scientific journals.

and pumpingiron i hope you realize you made some good points regarding ax, but as soon as they felt threatened they attacked you, and as soon as they realized you got offended they started backing down because your a respected member on the board and if you said something bad about their company obviously it would lead to less sales.

when i started to read PA's post at first, beside this one, i thought to myself wow this guy is a jerk, but you know what i think now he's just being honest or at least backs up what he says instead feeding everyone sh#t statements filled with words that trick the weak minded.

I have a formula for AX
over hyping products + missed product dates + promises with no scientific data + promising test results which never appear + some not all prick reps. = lost customer, i mean i only spent around maybe 300 dollars a year on your products so it probably won't hurt your pockets but since i use to buy stuff from you guys i thought you should know
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Honesty and boldness is refreshing. I must say this about Patrick Arnold's products ... and I'm not trying to make enemies by saying so... All of his products have worked for me and have done exactly what they are supposed to do.

Half of the battle at hand here has to do with things that we, the consumers, aren't aware of and the other half has to do with company integrity.

I don't fear receiving hostility from members of the boards, but I'd rather remain neutral... atleast for now.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
i dunno about you but i would have respect for a rep that spoke his mind about something instead of shutting up or saying the opposite to please the company. f*ck the free supplements, its not worth being a b*tch
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thats the thing, Patrick............i speak my mind..........i don't rep for AX becuase i get free products..........i rep for AX becuase i believe int heir business practices and i believe in their products and i believe in Dr. D!

so when i speak of AX, i speak the truth to the best knowledge that i know.........

when i say i do not like you...........I DO NOT LIKE YOU!

when i say i think you are underhanded and manipulative..................I REALLY THINK YOU ARE UNDERHANDED AND MANIPULATIVE!

and guess what? my shelves are even stocked with plenty of chocolate MASS MEAL! It is a REALLY good tasting quality protein that i have come to enjoy! :jaw:

I don't only recommend AX products, either! I enjoy Controlled labs, USPLabs, IBE, and Nimbus products as well! Does that mean that i am your b*tch too, cause i just endorsed your product?

I AM A CONSUMER FIRST! and as a consumer I DO NOT LIKE YOU OR YOUR BUSINESS PRACTICES OR YOUR PAST!
 
StellaArtois said:
opinion:


when i started to read PA's post at first, beside this one, i thought to myself wow this guy is a jerk, but you know what i think now he's just being honest or at least backs up what he says instead feeding everyone sh#t statements filled with words that trick the weak minded.
Click to expand...

i do have an abrasive online presence. i appear arrogant and sarcastic and mean. but i don't bs and i know what i am talking about. and believe it or not i care, care more than you can imagine

then there are others that kiss ass, schmooze, give out free samples to win people over, and play the whole bro game. all at the same time they are lying through their teeth
 
Patrick Arnold said:
i feel sorry for you

i am being honest, i really do
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Not as sorry as I feel for you, after what went down a while back and how it has HAD to change your future. Because of what YOU went through, you now think EVERYONE should pay. I dont think that is very professional. Opinions are fine, trying to take food out of peoples mouths is not.

Many respect you because they know you have in the past made some great products, but because of your past they heed every word you say as fact, this can be misleading to others when you pick compounds apart to hopefully deter people from buying the product, it just so happens that you always have one that would be better suited for them.

Why cant you just let people buy the products that they want ?
 
CAN EVERYONE JUST SHUT THE **** UP ALREADY! I JUST WASTED 45 MINUTES SIFTING THROUGH BICKERING, NAME CALLING, EGO BASHING, AND SIDE TRACKING (let's throw ASS KISSING in there too) ONLY TO END UP WITH NO ANSWERS.

I'm tired and there are still questions to be answered.



Is this truly a natural product? Or is it a prohormone/prosteroid? Is there evidence to back it up?

Can someone please just provide the studies to indicate the effectiveness of this compound already?



Please do not reply with any type of the responses I first mentioned...just answer the questions or state that you cannot. This thread is literally 11 pages too long. Everyone needs to grow up a little bit. This is only the internet.
 
macedaddy said:
thats the thing, Patrick............i speak my mind..........i don't rep for AX becuase i get free products..........i rep for AX becuase i believe int heir business practices and i believe in their products and i believe in Dr. D!

so when i speak of AX, i speak the truth to the best knowledge that i know.........

when i say i do not like you...........I DO NOT LIKE YOU!

when i say i think you are underhanded and manipulative..................I REALLY THINK YOU ARE UNDERHANDED AND MANIPULATIVE!

and guess what? my shelves are even stocked with plenty of chocolate MASS MEAL! It is a REALLY good tasting quality protein that i have come to enjoy! :jaw:

I don't only recommend AX products, either! I enjoy Controlled labs, USPLabs, IBE, and Nimbus products as well! Does that mean that i am your b*tch too, cause i just endorsed your product?

I AM A CONSUMER FIRST! and as a consumer I DO NOT LIKE YOU OR YOUR BUSINESS PRACTICES OR YOUR PAST!
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i never questioned your honesty or your good intentions

i just think you are probably a very dumb person. you actually come across as someone of low intelligence.

just being honest
 
Patrick... I think that whatever point you were trying to make has been lost in the many pages of this thread, so can you either refresh what you're trying to say and bring us all back up to speed, or just let this thread go to the archives? This whole discussion has turned into nothing but a bunch of bickering and name calling and it's gotten so chaotic that I don't mind asking about berries and Bioperine.

Why did you give helpful input last night about fructose and blueberries, but you bashed my Bioperine question? Huh? Huh?
 
Patrick Arnold said:
i never questioned your honesty or your good intentions

i just think you are probably a very dumb person. you actually come across as someone of low intelligence.

just being honest
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thats interesting........guess i wasted all that money on my MASTERS DEGREE! :rofl:

and you come across as someone who stinks of prior jail time with a bit of arrogance and "THE WORLD OWES ME" attitude.

guess we agree to disagree?
 
FitnFirm said:
Not as sorry as I feel for you, after what went down a while back and how it has HAD to change your future. Because of what YOU went through, you now think EVERYONE should pay.
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i appreciate the psychoanalysis but i actually did not find prison to be all that bad, and i actually am glad the whole balco thing happened. gave me more notoriety and respect for the most part

so try again Doctor Phil
 
FitnFirm said:
.

Why cant you just let people buy the products that they want ?
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what you are asking here is "why can't i stand by and watch my competitors mislead consumers about products, and get them to take active steroids during PCT, and make up scientific references to cajole people to take their stuff etc. etc."

sometimes its like i am running a marathon and all these competitors of mine are getting into taxis and taking shortcuts and GOD FORBID i ever say anything

you are completely missing the whole real picture. like i said, you need deprogramming
 
Patrick Arnold said:
what you are asking here is "why can't i stand by and watch my competitors mislead consumers about products, and get them to take active steroids during post cycle therapy, and make up scientific references to cajole people to take their stuff etc. etc."

sometimes its like i am running a marathon and all these competitors of mine are getting into taxis and taking shortcuts and GOD FORBID i ever say anything

you are completely missing the whole real picture. like i said, you need deprogramming
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If what you are saying is true, why would the products still be on the market ? The FDA is up our ass regulary, so far clean bill of health up in there :D
 
Patrick Arnold said:
what you are asking here is "why can't i stand by and watch my competitors mislead consumers about products, and get them to take active steroids during post cycle therapy, and make up scientific references to cajole people to take their stuff etc. etc."

sometimes its like i am running a marathon and all these competitors of mine are getting into taxis and taking shortcuts and GOD FORBID i ever say anything

you are completely missing the whole real picture. like i said, you need deprogramming
Click to expand...

I agree with this frustration. There must be better ways of solving this though.
 
Force of Green said:
Patrick... I think that whatever point you were trying to make has been lost in the many pages of this thread, so can you either refresh what you're trying to say and bring us all back up to speed, or just let this thread go to the archives? This whole discussion has turned into nothing but a bunch of bickering and name calling and it's gotten so chaotic that I don't mind asking about berries and Bioperine.

Why did you give helpful input last night about fructose and blueberries, but you bashed my Bioperine question? Huh? Huh?
Click to expand...

bioperine is good for somethings. things that are not easily absorbed from the intestine for instance - it helps the permeability somehow

also it is a glucuronidation inhibitor for phenolic type compounds. examples are resveratrol, EGCG, flavonoids. this increases their bioavailability

and i am not going to bother repeating my questions cuz its obvious they will never be answered. i agree this thread is useless now. not that i ever expected an answer from those guys
 
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