270 versus 288

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mmowry said:
But it is on the acuser to bear the burden of proof 1st and doesnt a PhD carry more "real world" weight than an accusing supp designer?
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I like to think i am a little more than a "supp designer"

15 years of experience in steroid chemistry (synthesis and analysis) should deserve some mention here, no?
 
Well it seems that at least you think you do.Im not discrediting you but youre word is not the standard by which ALL should be judged.But youre not spending much time judging all :only IBE.Also using a blog for a public smear campaign isnt very condusive to keeping your "lets keep the consumer safe" persona.Pat youve done some good things for the industry but keeping this going isnt doing anything but bringing drama and ultimately the "gov. reg stick" down on the industry.So if you must just give a summary of your thoughts and let it be a conclusion.
 
LakeMountD said:
So you are here arguing as though you are an analytical chemist, yet admit you aren't? Interesting. Glad someone who admits this is arguing with a doctor.

Nabeshin is wasting his time. This doctor is no slouch, he will eat him alive. I am not joking haha. Plus he charges a fee for consultation, and won't talk to him about it. Again the offer only goes to you. Up to you whether you take it up or not.

Seems you are pretty unwilling to do this though? Cold feet?

:sick:
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Because my chemical expertise lies more in the area of synthesis than analytical chemistry does not mean i don't know enough analytical chemistry to figure out what is going on here. And besides, matt (carcinogen) works for me and he is the analytical guru.

But if you wanna play this game then tell me about your chemist, Dr. D, and his scientific credentials. Real names please, and real universities and/or private institutions. None of this "he wishes to remain secret" crap. I had enough of that with Legal Gear and Seth Roberts
 
LakeMountD said:
Honestly, you should stop now. The fact that someone as under-qualified as you is even bothering the doctor is ridiculous. Pat should be the one talking to him if anyone, you are wasting your time, he is going to shoot you down.

With that being said you are attempting to say that the M+ is the largest peak. This isn't always the case. The M+ in any sample could be very small, especially in these larger organic molecules. He never states in his report that 270 is the M+ from what I see. He just says a major molecular fragment.
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Nabeshin seems qualified enough to talk to this doctor. Any doctor that cannot get methyl and water straight, or who contemplates imaginary double bonds, or who uses such unprofessional terms as "very hot" can't be all that intimidating

epistane was tested by our lab (you have our results) and by RTL and it was found to have an M+ of 270. And Dr. D went on and on trying to rationalize why 270 represented the correct compound.

Now you are changing your story and saying 270 is not the M+.

you so crazy
 
mmowry said:
Well it seems that at least you think you do.Im not discrediting you but youre word is not the standard by which ALL should be judged.But youre not spending much time judging all :only IBE.Also using a blog for a public smear campaign isnt very condusive to keeping your "lets keep the consumer safe" persona.Pat youve done some good things for the industry but keeping this going isnt doing anything but bringing drama and ultimately the "gov. reg stick" down on the industry.So if you must just give a summary of your thoughts and let it be a conclusion.
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sorry. i just get a kick out of lake mount and his pathetic attempts at covering up. you are right, kicking someone when they are down is not gonna win me any respect
 
Patrick Arnold said:
Nabeshin seems qualified enough to talk to this doctor. Any doctor that cannot get methyl and water straight, or who contemplates imaginary double bonds, or who uses such unprofessional terms as "very hot" can't be all that intimidating

epistane was tested by our lab (you have our results) and by RTL and it was found to have an M+ of 270. And Dr. D went on and on trying to rationalize why 270 represented the correct compound.

Now you are changing your story and saying 270 is not the M+.

you so crazy
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I am not changing anything. I have said this once and I will say it again, I speak for myself. Dr.D speaks for himself.

So, once again, because "your lab" says it has an M+ of 270 than it is the universal standard. I am not quite sure what "covering up" you are talking about Pat. You, also, speak as if there is some grand conspiracy behind mean ol' LMD covering stuff up. If I were covering things up I wouldn't be so adamant about you speaking with the Dr. to clear things up. I am just stating facts based off of the small bit of experience I have with MS data coupled with what various PhD's in chemistry have to tell me. I spoke with a few university professors, different from the ones I spoke with last time, and they were explaining some things that happens quite frequently. As you know analytical chemistry is not something you can learn out of a book, which is why I don't pretend to say I know everything about it. Strange things occur in nature, which is why I leave it up to the people who have PhD's in the field to explain it to me. When I have multiple people telling me that this can happen and that they feel that it is correct, I tend to believe them.

Nabeshin DOES NOT have the experience to talk with him, he is 22, I am sorry. Again, we will pay for you to speak with him if you'd like, but your unwillingness to do so is quite suspect. We are giving you every opportunity to clear this and I hope everyone else sees that.
 
LakeMountD said:
Nabeshin DOES NOT have the experience to talk with him, he is 22, I am sorry. Again, we will pay for you to speak with him if you'd like, but your unwillingness to do so is quite suspect. We are giving you every opportunity to clear this and I hope everyone else sees that.
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you will pay me to speak to him? Cool. How much you gonna give me?
 
LakeMountD said:
So, once again, because "your lab" says it has an M+ of 270 than it is the universal standard. I am not quite sure what "covering up" you are talking about Pat. You, also, speak as if there is some grand conspiracy behind mean ol' LMD covering stuff up. If I were covering things up I wouldn't be so adamant about you speaking with the Dr. to clear things up. I am just stating facts based off of the small bit of experience I have with MS data coupled with what various PhD's in chemistry have to tell me. I spoke with a few university professors, different from the ones I spoke with last time, and they were explaining some things that happens quite frequently. As you know analytical chemistry is not something you can learn out of a book, which is why I don't pretend to say I know everything about it. Strange things occur in nature, which is why I leave it up to the people who have PhD's in the field to explain it to me. When I have multiple people telling me that this can happen and that they feel that it is correct, I tend to believe them.

Nabeshin DOES NOT have the experience to talk with him, he is 22, I am sorry. Again, we will pay for you to speak with him if you'd like, but your unwillingness to do so is quite suspect. We are giving you every opportunity to clear this and I hope everyone else sees that.
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Last time I checked, there are now three labs that say 270 is the M+ in Epistane. But, the rational for the reason that this M+ to be the compound doesnt make sense based on my experience (and before you start calling that into question, I have 16 years, I was fortunate enough to start working in a lab when I was sixteen).

Based on the chemical properties, 288 is the M+ that should be seen.

I will keep saying this over and over again.
 
Anybody have an MS of DMT (Madol) handy? I've been trying to find it and keep failing. I found an MS of an alcohol protected (TMS protecting) version of DMT.

It shares those common 255 and 270 peaks with Havoc, but the M+ and some of the fragmentation pattern is all screwed up, as could be expected.

Reference:
Another designer steroid: discovery, synthesis,and detection of ‘madol’ in urine
Michael H. Sekera1, Brian D. Ahrens1, Yu-Chen Chang1, Borislav Starcevic1,
Costas Georgakopoulos2 and Don H. Catlin1*
1UCLA Olympic Analytical Laboratory, Department of Molecular and Medical Pharmacology, University of California at Los Angeles,
2122 Granville Ave., Los Angeles, CA 90025, USA
2Doping Control Laboratory of Athens, Olympic Athletic Center of Athens, 37, Kifissias Ave., 15123 Maroussi/Athens, Greece
Received 22 December 2004; Revised 22 January 2005; Accepted 22 January 2005
 

Attachments

  • TMS_Deriv_of_DMT.jpg
    TMS_Deriv_of_DMT.jpg
    51.2 KB · Views: 163
And so here we stand waiting on PA, as to whether he can back up his claims and actually follow through. What more could you want than for them to pay for your consultation with this Dr?.

Not taking I think explains quite clearly you don't know what you are talking about / doing, nothing wrong with having "Matt" there in the background to help you with anything you don't understand, plus you could also tape record the convo....

Again PA stop ****in around man...you are transparent.
 
IBE said:
Lakemount, I know you mean well here, but it is time to stop posting man. It is not getting us anywhere except off topic
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Thank God, well put. Every one of the threads always turns into a turd slinging fest between lakemountd and everyone else.
 
Ok, PA, it's simple. Have carcinogen there so that he may answer any questions that may arise that you may not be sure of....that way, it's all covered...IBE foots the bill for you to discuss things with the Dr....

Perhaps, and im just saying that PERHAPS, something new will come out of this as to why he stated as he did....OR, you will know that his is bogus and well, you know the rest of the story,,,,,

All eyes are waiting on this thing to happen, like yesterday...
 
I love this show. Each episode just gets better. I wonder what will happen next? :hammer:
 
IBE has put their money where their mouth is, now its PA's turn to do so..............is he gonna talk with the Doc or not???
 
dadream said:
IBE has put their money where their mouth is, now its PA's turn to do so..............is he gonna talk with the Doc or not???
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Really, I can't express to you how disappointed I actually was when I read the Ch.3 Results.

Back read my old posts. I was the first to jump in and tell everyone that 270 was a perfectly reasonable M+.

If you understood basic chemistry, you would understand how "weird" it sounds to have a Ph.D in Forensic Pharmacology / Analytical Chemist misuse the word methylation in place of dehydration, and to say one isomer of another has a double bond (by definition, we lost two hydrogens here and its no longer an isomer!), etc, etc. It really didn't make sense.

That, and the Ch2 results were just more of the same. It was the exact same tests as the previous two. We needed other tests to prove things like the existence of sulfur on the molecule, etc. I was bummed there, too. Why provide tests for something we already know?

IMHO, their money was not where their mouth was. I know there were quite a few of us suggesting simple alternative tests, before they sent in for Ch.2, that would have cleared things up.

Now, IMHO, if we can get a hold of MS data of DMT and it matches up with HAVOC, we can pretty much conclude whether or not HAVOC is legit, and if it is, Epi isn't because I believe Carcinogen is 100% right when he said the two are diff molecules (the MS fragmentation patterns suggest this).
 
On a side note, nobody can deny that Epi works well based off of log results and blood work. It would just be nice if this whole debacle were taken care of. I don't care anymore though. I'll wait for beejis60 to put up results and thats it.

I was really turned off by that combination of Ch2 and Ch3 posting. Maybe even Ch1, I just don't remember what was in it by now and I don't care to look it up.
 
This convo needs to be recorded and uploaded, not heard and summarized, if it ever happens....
 
Where are the pissed off consumers in all of this? It appears that those who purchased Epistane are devout IBE supports/RPN haters and those who purchased Havoc are the opposite. Why does it seem so difficult to question the sanctity of these companies? As a consumer, I want to know what I'm putting in my body, more than I want to stand behind a brand name.
 
This thread is still going?!!

For the love of god people! Who here has actually taken the products? With good diet and proper routine and NOT shown results? Seriously, I don't understand why it matters to anyone who produces it. If they are slightly different products, then what? They're different, they do the same thing, when you take them you increase muscle mass.

Stop criticizing product, USE THEM and go to the god damn gym already.

eesh, you'd think people have something better to do than bad mouth/criticize/fight about people who are trying to supply product to the industry. Can I get an amen?
 
V00D00 said:
This thread is still going?!!

For the love of god people! Who here has actually taken the products? With good diet and proper routine and NOT shown results? Seriously, I don't understand why it matters to anyone who produces it. If they are slightly different products, then what? They're different, they do the same thing, when you take them you increase muscle mass.

Stop criticizing product, USE THEM and go to the god damn gym already.

eesh, you'd think people have something better to do than bad mouth/criticize/fight about people who are trying to supply product to the industry. Can I get an amen?
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Seriously, I agree with EVERYTHING said here. I WHO CARES what test results show. I know several people who have tried BOTH Epi and Havoc and gotten great results --- much more than placebo would ever accomplish. So drop it. Please!

As voo said go to the gym, do something with your life other than complain about supplement companies to other online readers --- that has to get old...doesn't it???
 
bLacKjAck. said:
Seriously, I agree with EVERYTHING said here. I WHO CARES what test results show. I know several people who have tried BOTH Epi and Havoc and gotten great results --- much more than placebo would ever accomplish. So drop it. Please!

As voo said go to the gym, do something with your life other than complain about supplement companies to other online readers --- that has to get old...doesn't it???
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I THIRD this one... people get a life!!!!!! IBE is kewl, RPN is kewl, for all I care every supplement company except Muscletech is 100% kewl. Go EAT, go LIFT, do anything but drag this out further.
 
Not sure I totally agree Voodoo (speaking as Jmh80, world's hottest chemical engineer...).

I would prefer to know what the hell I'm taking. Yeah - I want it to work - but I wouldn't buy a supp if I didn't think it worked (from other people's logs, etc).

But - if I'm taking something that has lead in it (just an example) that probably wouldn't show on the standard chem panel, CBC, lipids, etc blood test that I get done every year - I sure as sh*t want to know that.

Bottom line - if you say you are going to sell a molecule at X purity, then do it. No if's, an's, or but's about it. I don't give 2 sh*ts about possible money lost or whatever.
Due diligence.
 
jmh80 said:
Not sure I totally agree Voodoo (speaking as Jmh80, world's hottest chemical engineer...).

I would prefer to know what the hell I'm taking. Yeah - I want it to work - but I wouldn't buy a supp if I didn't think it worked (from other people's logs, etc).

But - if I'm taking something that has lead in it (just an example) that probably wouldn't show on the standard chem panel, CBC, lipids, etc blood test that I get done every year - I sure as sh*t want to know that.

Bottom line - if you say you are going to sell a molecule at X purity, then do it. No if's, an's, or but's about it. I don't give 2 sh*ts about possible money lost or whatever.
Due diligence.
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shazam!
 
I have followed PA for many years; the guy has proven himself time and time again and the way I see it got the ball rolling on this entire industry. He deserves a little more respect. What is the harm in him using his specialist? You can conference them both in. Just because he wants his specialist to speak doesn't mean he isn't qualified; it just means he has an employee with specific knowledge that is more qualified. To make an argument that he is afraid to speak is on the same level of him arguing you are afraid to let his specialist speak (which he has not made).

I have my name on three research papers papers published in distinguished journals (not in this field). Just because someone has PhD after their name doesn't mean #%#$, and I have seen people sign off on some utter crap for $. Not saying it happened here, but it happens. The misuse of those words is a little shocking.
 
jmh80 said:
But - if I'm taking something that has lead in it (just an example) that probably wouldn't show on the standard chem panel, CBC, lipids, etc blood test that I get done every year - I sure as sh*t want to know that.
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The lead in vitamins really worries me and it's a very legit issue. Don't know if you guys heard but The Vitamin Shoppe was busted for high levels of lead in their multi's, which I happened to have been taking for a while :smite: Maybe that's I have slight mental issues, but that's another story :D
 
Iron Warrior said:
The Vitamin Shoppe was busted for high levels of lead in their multi's
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oh man that blows. got one of those across the street from me; makes it convient to get my multi's there...hope Costco's brand doesntg have this prob too...cant beat 500tabs for what, $20
 
Actually, one of the reasons for me buying this was that it had been used and tested for many years with no sides apart from increased libido. But for which of the two is this correct? I will not use any of the two until this has been cleared up.
 
mmowry said:
Well it seems that at least you think you do.Im not discrediting you but youre word is not the standard by which ALL should be judged.But youre not spending much time judging all :only IBE.Also using a blog for a public smear campaign isnt very condusive to keeping your "lets keep the consumer safe" persona.Pat youve done some good things for the industry but keeping this going isnt doing anything but bringing drama and ultimately the "gov. reg stick" down on the industry.So if you must just give a summary of your thoughts and let it be a conclusion.
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This issue of material quality is most certainly not exclusive to Epi/Havoc. Every sponsor on this board who has developed a product with some exotic obscure (or not) material is suspect and or susceptible to these very same issues (including retailers who provide bulk powders) as well. Popularity, charm, sponsorship, free tester products, special sales, board member discounts and free T-shirts do not exclude any from this. If we are going to have a "consumer advocate vigilante group" then lets be sure that we don't target just those who are in competition and or with an agenda. Every one is suspect and should be "audited" for quality purposes. Whether intentionally or ignorantly, manufacture specification defects, deviations and or tampering that reach the consumer are not exclusive to just one company. Ask our cats and dogs how they feel about their food supply and industry controls and regulations.
Patrick Arnold said:
you are right, kicking someone when they are down is not gonna win me any respect
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As knowledgeable as you may or may not be this has to be the most intelligent thing I have seen you write in my some 5 years reading your posts. Pleasant surprise :)
 
so, assuming beejis does his tests...my question is this...when he is all done...will we know the exact chemical name of all compounds involved?
 
B5150 said:
This issue of material quality is most certainly not exclusive to Epi/Havoc. Every sponsor on this board who has developed a product with some exotic obscure (or not) material is suspect and or susceptible to these very same issues (including retailers who provide bulk powders) as well. Popularity, charm, sponsorship, free tester products, special sales, board member discounts and free T-shirts do not exclude any from this. If we are going to have a "consumer advocate vigilante group" then lets be sure that we don't target just those who are in competition and or with an agenda. Every one is suspect and should be "audited" for quality purposes. Whether intentionally or ignorantly, manufacture specification defects, deviations and or tampering that reach the consumer are not exclusive to just one company. Ask our cats and dogs how they feel about their food supply and industry controls and regulations.As knowledgeable as you may or may not be this has to be the most intelligent thing I have seen you write in my some 5 years reading your posts. Pleasant surprise :)
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You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to B5150 again.
 
hardknock said:
Ok, PA, it's simple. Have carcinogen there so that he may answer any questions that may arise that you may not be sure of....that way, it's all covered...IBE foots the bill for you to discuss things with the Dr....

Perhaps, and im just saying that PERHAPS, something new will come out of this as to why he stated as he did....OR, you will know that his is bogus and well, you know the rest of the story,,,,,

All eyes are waiting on this thing to happen, like yesterday...
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all well said. i would rather do this by email however. i am on house arrest and am stuck in apartment all weekend. i do not have conferencing capabilities on my cell phone and my home phone is dedicated to my home guard ankle bracelt unit.

so do you think there is any problem with doing this by email, with all parties copied? It would leave a record so that nobody can falsely report what was said
 
dadream said:
IBE has put their money where their mouth is, now its PA's turn to do so..............is he gonna talk with the Doc or not???
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do you HONESTLY think anything is going to be concluded after this Doc phone call? It will just create more confusion and comedy and drama and disagreement. Just be prepared
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
Really, I can't express to you how disappointed I actually was when I read the Ch.3 Results.

Back read my old posts. I was the first to jump in and tell everyone that 270 was a perfectly reasonable M+.
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i can certainly see someone thinking this because the possibility of the 17-tertiary carbon OH dehydrating in the injection port seems reasonable

But if you worked with these compounds hands on you would know that this does not happen. I have shot many a methylated steroid into my GC/MS and the OH always stays put

I used to have DMT in the memory of the mass spec. but i deleted it to make room in the memory. plus we don't keep DMT around the lab (just ask the FDA who looked all over for some)
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
On a side note, nobody can deny that Epi works well based off of log results and blood work. It would just be nice if this whole debacle were taken care of. I don't care anymore though. I'll wait for beejis60 to put up results and thats it.
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just for the record, i never suggested that epistane is ineffective and that it might not contain an effective anabolic. I never suggested that people should not buy the stuff should they find the anecdotal positive feedback convincing. It very well might contain something effective

This to me is a chemistry debate, an investigation to figure out what compound is in what. Not an attempt to make people stop buying someones product

IBE could have handled this a completely different way and there would have never been a problem

They could have handled it the way Designer Supplements handled it when i found that Rebound XT had quality problems. DS got to the bottom of it and announced their findings and made amends. And they ended up with more respect than ever
 
Patrick Arnold said:
They could have handled it the way Designer Supplements handled it when i found that Rebound XT had quality problems. DS got to the bottom of it and announced their findings and made amends. And they ended up with more respect than ever
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Bingo. I went from DS Customer to Loyal DS Customer after that.
 
GhostfaceKillah said:
Where are the pissed off consumers in all of this? It appears that those who purchased Epistane are devout IBE supports/RPN haters and those who purchased Havoc are the opposite. Why does it seem so difficult to question the sanctity of these companies? As a consumer, I want to know what I'm putting in my body, more than I want to stand behind a brand name.
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i have bought stuff from IBE before and thought the stuff was fine. I am not an IBE hater. I have issues with label claim with this epistane stuff and more so with the IBE response to this debacle.

People love to reduce this stuff to a hate inspired smear campaign because it makes it easier to deny the disturbing facts. But hey, this is nothing we don't see in national politics everyday either is it
 
V00D00 said:
This thread is still going?!!

For the love of god people! Who here has actually taken the products? With good diet and proper routine and NOT shown results? Seriously, I don't understand why it matters to anyone who produces it. If they are slightly different products, then what? They're different, they do the same thing, when you take them you increase muscle mass.

Stop criticizing product, USE THEM and go to the god damn gym already.

eesh, you'd think people have something better to do than bad mouth/criticize/fight about people who are trying to supply product to the industry. Can I get an amen?
Click to expand...


you miss the point of this. there is no reason why someone should not buy and use either one of these products.

this is a chemistry debate. as a chemist i find it very interesting. it is a debate about the interpretation of analytical data.

try to distance this from any endorsement or condemnation of any product
 
jmh80 said:
Not sure I totally agree Voodoo (speaking as Jmh80, world's hottest chemical engineer...).

I would prefer to know what the hell I'm taking. Yeah - I want it to work - but I wouldn't buy a supp if I didn't think it worked (from other people's logs, etc).

But - if I'm taking something that has lead in it (just an example) that probably wouldn't show on the standard chem panel, CBC, lipids, etc blood test that I get done every year - I sure as sh*t want to know that.

Bottom line - if you say you are going to sell a molecule at X purity, then do it. No if's, an's, or but's about it. I don't give 2 sh*ts about possible money lost or whatever.
Due diligence.
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you bastard. i see your avatar and i go to your profile to see more pics and i get this beefy bald dude. that **** ain't nice
 
1HP said:
Actually, one of the reasons for me buying this was that it had been used and tested for many years with no sides apart from increased libido. But for which of the two is this correct? I will not use any of the two until this has been cleared up.
Click to expand...

this compound has never been sold commercially before. the non methyl analog has however
 
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