2016 NFL Thread

[muscleupcrohn]

I don't know if you can say who is "better" with any significance or real meaning, as there are a ton of variables. Of course, the rest of the team matters. For example, a solid running game means you don't have to rely on passing as much, which may mean less passing yards and TDs, but maybe better efficiency and less interceptions. Also, if your team is good enough to rarely be down in the fourth quarter, it'll be difficult to rack up a ton of fourth quarter comebacks. You can obviously put quarterbacks in tiers, but it's difficult to really say that one of these true greats is definitively, absolutely better than the other. That's my $0.02.

 

[jimbuick]

Haha sure you just trying to help him out.

Well, I do hope to be an educator when I finish school so you could say that's just the kind of guy I am.

Seriously though, formal logic is much different than what people think of when they hear the word "logic."

 

[rugger48]

There were less defensive restrictions in the 80s making it harder for QBs to put they same numbers as a QB could now

exactly, you cant even touch a qb or a receiver now. game favors the passing game. Its what the owners want, they want their franchise qbs protected and to see more points a game, its suppose to make for exciting football.

 

[jimbuick]

There were less defensive restrictions in the 80s making it harder for QBs to put they same numbers as a QB could now

That's why I won't try to argue whether or not Manning is better than Marino, Montana, etc.

Manning and Brady is easy because they played during the same time (roughly) and each had a lost season where you can easily see their impact.

 

[rtmilburn]

exactly, you cant even touch a qb or a receiver now. game favors the passing game. Its what the owners want, they want their franchise qbs protected and to see more points a game, its suppose to make for exciting football.

Exciting football is watching someone get hit so hard that you feel it through the shock waves in the air due to the impact

 

[jimbuick]

Exciting football is watching someone get hit so hard that you feel it through the shock waves in the air due to the impact

Like this:

https://youtu.be/HwiMtGsFHwA

 

[muscleupcrohn]

That's why I won't try to argue whether or not Manning is better than Marino, Montana, etc.

Manning and Brady is easy because they played during the same time (roughly) and each had a lost season where you can easily see their impact.

It's not "easy" to make a definitive conclusion of who is better. You can have an argument and support it, but it's basically impossible to reach an absolute conclusion here. For someone who talks about logic so much, you should surely see that. Comparing one "lost season" isn't a definitive be-all-end-all either.

 

[rtmilburn]

That's why I won't try to argue whether or not Manning is better than Marino, Montana, etc.

Manning and Brady is easy because they played during the same time (roughly) and each had a lost season where you can easily see their impact.

Ya but thats is a sample size of one. Great dynasties have bad years, even if nothing has changed. There is NO way to know where they would have done almost as bad(I say almost because they would have done better but who knows by how much).

 

[rtmilburn]

Like this:

https://youtu.be/HwiMtGsFHwA

Exactly!!!!

 

[jimbuick]

It's not "easy" to make a definitive conclusion of who is better. You can have an argument and support it, but it's basically impossible to reach an absolute conclusion here. For someone who talks about logic so much, you should surely see that. Comparing one "lost season" isn't a definitive be-all-end-all either.

If you can't come to a conclusion, there is nothing to debate.

My stance is that Manning was better. That is both objective in some respects and subjective in others. It's just the nature of the topic.

However, if neither of us can come to our conclusion we are not able to argue it effectively.

Unless of course the point of the debate is to come to a conclusion, but this one certainly wasn't because he and I already knew what our stances were going into it.

 

[jimbuick]

Exactly!!!!

That was one of the hardest hits I had ever gotten to see. I want to say it was Bush's rookie season.

 

[jimbuick]

Ya but thats is a sample size of one. Great dynasties have bad years, even if nothing has changed. There is NO way to know where they would have done almost as bad(I say almost because they would have done better but who knows by how much).

I mean, you could say with some certainty because of their records the season before and after.

Colts were a significantly better team the next season, although I can't remember if there was a coaching change that accompanied that as well.

 

[rtmilburn]

That was one of the hardest hits I had ever gotten to see. I want to say it was Bush's rookie season.

Ya I remember watching but I dont remember when.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

If you can't come to a conclusion, there is nothing to debate.

My stance is that Manning was better. That is both objective in some respects and subjective in others. It's just the nature of the topic.

However, if neither of us can come to our conclusion we are not able to argue it effectively.

Unless of course the point of the debate is to come to a conclusion, but this one certainly wasn't because he and I already knew what our stances were going into it.

Note that I said "definitive" and "absolute" conclusion. Read my post. Of course you can reach your conclusion, but you have to admit that it is still debatable, unlike 1+1=2. This is not a purely objective argument, so you can't reach a purely objective conclusion. For this reason, that it is a subjective debate where both sides have evidence to support their stances and there is no clear cut correct answer, you can say you believe that your conclusion is correct, but you have to accept that it is open for debate, and not definitive.

 

[muscleupcrohn]

I mean, you could say with some certainty because of their records the season before and after.

Colts were a significantly better team the next season, although I can't remember if there was a coaching change that accompanied that as well.

Some certainty implies some uncertainty, no?

 

[jimbuick]

Some certainty implies some uncertainty, no?

Not implies, it's explicitly states it.

If you stick around a while (and by that I mean see me posting enough), you'll likely notice that I am very specific with my word choice.

Note that I said "definitive" and "absolute" conclusion. Read my post. Of course you can reach your conclusion, but you have to admit that it is still debatable, unlike 1+1=2. This is not a purely objective argument, so you can't reach a purely objective conclusion. For this reason, that it is a subjective debate where both sides have evidence to support their stances and there is no clear cut correct answer, you can say you believe that your conclusion is correct, but you have to accept that it is open for debate, and not definitive.

I agree, it is certainly debatable. That's why I'm willing to debate it. I learned once that "if you argue with a fool there are now 2 fools in the conversation."

I don't believe I ever said there was no information to support a belief that Brady is better, that's why I recall telling rugger to return with more information before continuing at one point, but I don't believe it is as compelling as the evidence that supports Manning being better.

 

[Woody]

There is only one solution.

Boys, stand 2 feet away from an 8 foot privacy fence. Urinate on the fence. Whoever pees the highest on the fence is correct.

 

[jimbuick]

There is only one solution.

Boys, stand 2 feet away from an 8 foot privacy fence. Urinate on the fence. Whoever pees the highest on the fence is correct.

Don't lie, you're just upset because the Giants got the wrong Manning, right?

 

[Woody]

Don't lie, you're just upset because the Giants got the wrong Manning, right?

I like Eli tbh lol

 

[jimbuick]

I like Eli tbh lol

A psychologist might diagnose that as a self-loathing complex lol.

 

[The Solution]

Lol, okay, i take back what I said to Bob.

This is...
I am going to insult you more thread
then NFL thread...

Lets please stay on topic. If you want to argue with someone just take it to PM's. We don't need pissing matches here.

Lets talk about the SB, Pro Bowl, and also the NFL Draft coming up.

 

[The Solution]

Browns and 1st pick:

Joe Thomas doesn't think the Cleveland Browns should use the draft's first overall pick on a quarterback.
"I would say you want to go defense," Thomas, a 10-time Pro Bowl offensive tackle, said Thursday on the Dan Patrick Show. "I think you need to get a pass-rusher."
Thomas would seem to be favoring defensive end Myles Garrett of Texas A&M, a player the Browns like and a player generally considered the best in the draft.

Chiefs tight end Travis Kelce said Thursday he has moved on from his feelings about referee Carl Cheffers' call in Kansas City's divisional playoff loss to the Pittsburgh Steelers, and he apologized for the manner in which he criticized Cheffers.Kelce was fined $12,500 for his postgame comments about Cheffers, who penalized Chiefs tackle Eric Fisher for holding on an otherwise successful 2-point conversion that would have allowed Kansas City to tie the score. Pittsburgh won 18-16 to advance to the AFC Championship Game.

Former WR Ty Montgomery to remain at running back for Packers

 

[jswain34]

That last point brings up a question, what are you guys' thoughts on the future of Eddy Lacy? Almost seems like these past two seasons could really be the downward spiral of his career. Not as bad as Trent Richardson at least.

 

[Woody]

That last point brings up a question, what are you guys' thoughts on the future of Eddy Lacy? Almost seems like these past two seasons could really be the downward spiral of his career. Not as bad as Trent Richardson at least.

Packers will resign him. He was effective this season prior to injury.

 

[Woody]

A psychologist might diagnose that as a self-loathing complex lol.

Eli makes a lot of boneheaded decisions but he also makes a lot of brilliant plays. He isn't afraid to take chances and I like that more than taking the safe check down.

This year was a down year, for sure. The entire offense looked bad. The OL is a mess. The running game was a mess. But play calling was a huge issue.. defenses knew what we were going to do because we were so Vanilla.

 

[The Solution]

Eli makes a lot of boneheaded decisions but he also makes a lot of brilliant plays. He isn't afraid to take chances and I like that more than taking the safe check down.

This year was a down year, for sure. The entire offense looked bad. The OL is a mess. The running game was a mess. But play calling was a huge issue.. defenses knew what we were going to do because we were so Vanilla.

Gmen will be Good next year under their head coach for the 2nd year.
Despite some games that they should of won. they had a good year.

 

[rob112]

Poor Drew Bree's, Mr. 5000 never breaks into anyone's like even top 10 lists it seems.

Man everyone has their favorites but I think we can all agree we witnessed a lot of years of phenomenal HOF caliber QBs and it has been a blast. It's sad that a lot of the top tier guys are finished or close to it...

 

[The Solution]

Browns sign new LB Jamie Collins to a 4 yr 60mil deal with 26mil gtd. Hes a monster.

Bengals sign K Randy Bullock

Apparently, Ravens kicker Justin Tucker was 'nailed' a 75 yarder at the pro bowl stuff. Guy is unreal.

 

[Woody]

Randy Bullock. LOL

 

[Woody]

Gmen will be Good next year under their head coach for the 2nd year.
Despite some games that they should of won. they had a good year.

Giants were carried by defense. If we lose JPP and/or Hankins without adequate replacements then we are in trouble. Of course, if McAdoo mixes the offense up so it scores more than 20 points a game, well be fine. A run game will help.

 

[jimbuick]

I know safeties are usually cheated by the HOF, but if Dawkins isn't a first ballot guy then I don't know who is.

 

[rob112]

I know safeties are usually cheated by the HOF, but if Dawkins isn't a first ballot guy then I don't know who is.

Regardless dude is a HOFer. I don't know how anyone could not like Dawk(and I'm obviously a rivals fan). Dude was such a beast, and when I hear him on local radio apparently he was like 198lbs putting in that damage to big dudes. He is an animal.

 

[jimbuick]

Regardless dude is a HOFer. I don't know how anyone could not like Dawk(and I'm obviously a rivals fan). Dude was such a beast, and when I hear him on local radio apparently he was like 198lbs putting in that damage to big dudes. He is an animal.

I just can't see 5 guys in this list of 15 that should go before he does.

Plus, his stats were ridiculous. Lots of people throw out names like Reed/Polamalu (who are both beasts who should probably make it too), but he was the better all around player IMO.

 

[rtmilburn]

Eli makes a lot of boneheaded decisions but he also makes a lot of brilliant plays. He isn't afraid to take chances and I like that more than taking the safe check down.

This year was a down year, for sure. The entire offense looked bad. The OL is a mess. The running game was a mess. But play calling was a huge issue.. defenses knew what we were going to do because we were so Vanilla.

Thb I didn't think the Giants offense was that bad other than the OL(which was God awful), and obj occasionally when not play to HIS standard. Sure overall numbers may have not been great but I will account that to nothing but the OL. Get one OLmen maybe two but definitely one lol. That offense will be back to full throttle

 

[rtmilburn]

Poor Drew Bree's, Mr. 5000 never breaks into anyone's like even top 10 lists it seems.

Man everyone has their favorites but I think we can all agree we witnessed a lot of years of phenomenal HOF caliber QBs and it has been a blast. It's sad that a lot of the top tier guys are finished or close to it...

Won't disagree. Although I think some of that due to the more recent defensive rules, resticting A LOT of what defenses could. Which allowed their to be these spectacular numbers from QBs that MIGHT have only been really good instead of HOFers.

Also with Brees is part of it is he plays inside with warm weather. Which allows him to have consistent passing; not having to deal with wet balls and wind. Don't get me wrong he is spectacular! But I think that plus his lack of post season success (blame the franchise not him IMO) is why he's not too 10 like Brady and Manning are.

 

[The Solution]

Steelers may be knocked a draft pick:

Bell got consecutive Wednesdays off during the playoffs with a "not injury related" designation, and Steelers coach Mike Tomlin said Bell had an excused absence on Jan. 19. A source close to Bell told ESPN that the absence was specifically for a personal matter and not groin-related.

The league doesn't have a set timeline on the probe, according to a source.

Sources told ESPN on Jan. 20 that the NFL is considering taking away a second-round pick in the 2017 NFL draft from the Seattle Seahawks as a result of their failure to disclose a knee injury to Pro Bowl cornerback Richard Sherman.

ATL:

Atlanta Falcons coach Dan Quinn said star wide receiver Julio Jones returned to "limited" participation in practice Friday while recovering from a toe sprain.

Jets:
Kevin Greene returns to coaching with Jets after four-year break

Arizona:
Former NFL quarterback Byron Leftwich has graduated from intern to full-time assistant coach for the Arizona Cardinals.

Leftwich will be the Cardinals' quarterbacks coach after a minor staff reshuffle sparked by the departure of running backs coach Stump Mitchell. Freddie Kitchens will move from coaching quarterbacks to running backs.

 

[rob112]

Is the losing draft picks for gamblers? Like giving an unfair advantage?

 

[The Solution]

Pittsburgh Steelers wide receiver Martavis Bryant, who was suspended for the 2016 season for violations of the NFL's substance abuse policy, applied for reinstatement with the league this week, according to Bryant's agent, Thomas Santanello.

KC now bracing to lose their personnel chief, Chris Ballard, who's headed for second GM interview with Colts on Sunday.

The Jets made it official, announcing the hiring of Kevin Greene as outside linebackers coach.

Vince Wilfork reiterated to reporters today at a Super Bowl event that he is leaning toward retiring.

 

[The Solution]

49ers to hire John Lynch as new GM on 6-year deal
Colts hire Chris Ballard as GM, replacing Ryan Grigson
Saints WR coach John Morton to join Jets as offensive coordinator

About the Pro Bowl:

The future of the Pro Bowl continues to be a topic facing the league. The product of the game hasn’t been where the NFL wants it to be, and players are backing out at a record rate. Eighty players declined Pro Bowl invites over the past two years, according to Elias Sports Bureau research, which is an NFL record for any two-year stretch.

 

[rugger48]

Pittsburgh Steelers wide receiver Martavis Bryant, who was suspended for the 2016 season for violations of the NFL's substance abuse policy, applied for reinstatement with the league this week, according to Bryant's agent, Thomas Santanello.

KC now bracing to lose their personnel chief, Chris Ballard, who's headed for second GM interview with Colts on Sunday.

The Jets made it official, announcing the hiring of Kevin Greene as outside linebackers coach.

Vince Wilfork reiterated to reporters today at a Super Bowl event that he is leaning toward retiring.

hope Bryant gets back, but this usually doesn't go well for guys in his position.

 

[rtmilburn]

hope Bryant gets back, but this usually doesn't go well for guys in his position.

I think he will tbh. Also he would have made such a big difference in this season and especially against the pats. Brown hasn't had a decent #2 to take away pressure from him all year. And IMO Bryant was one of the best if not the best #2 last year

 

[rugger48]

I think he will tbh. Also he would have made such a big difference in this season and especially against the pats. Brown hasn't had a decent #2 to take away pressure from him all year. And IMO Bryant was one of the best if not the best #2 last year

I agree I like his talent and hope he does, just he was already popped like 3 times in his first season.

 

[rtmilburn]

I agree I like his talent and hope he does, just he was already popped like 3 times in his first season.

Ya but how times did they let Ricky Williams? Lol

 

[Woody]

Ya but how times did they let Ricky Williams? Lol

Different commish different time.

Recent history is not on his side, but I do hope the best for him

 

[rtmilburn]

Different commish different time.

Recent history is not on his side, but I do hope the best for him

Valid point

 

[Woody]

Valid point

It's sad too...
Josh Gordon, justin Blackmon, Rolando McClain, Leveon Bell, Martavis Bryant. Idk, I've never been like Chief Keif but I would probably stop having sex for tens of millions of dollars over 5-6 years. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[rtmilburn]

It's sad too...
Josh Gordon, justin Blackmon, Rolando McClain, Leveon Bell, Martavis Bryant. Idk, I've never been like Chief Keif but I would probably stop having sex for tens of millions of dollars over 5-6 years. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Totally agreed i wouldnt even touch myself for that much money! I think your list is missing blunt lol wasn't that punny haha but seriously wasn't blunt busted like 3 times?

 

[The Solution]

Pats Most hated team followed by Cowboys.
http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/18587291/poll-shows-new-england-patriots-most-disliked-team-nfl

For the second straight year, the New England Patriots are the most disliked team in the NFL.

This according to a new poll taken last week and released Monday by Public Policy Polling.

In the poll, taken of 378 NFL fans representative of the US population, 21 percent of people disliked the Patriots -- once again edging the Dallas Cowboys (19 percent).

Of those polled, 42 percent said they feel negatively about the Patriots, compared to only 19 percent who said they think of their Super Bowl LI opponent Atlanta Falcons negatively. As far as who those polled are rooting for to win the Super Bowl, 53 percent are pulling for the Falcons, 27 percent for the Patriots.

 

[jswain34]

Who are the other 20% cheering for? 53% falcons, 27% patriots, 20% browns?

 

[The Solution]

The Oakland Raiders' bid to relocate to Las Vegas has hit another financial roadblock that could put the team's planned move to the desert in jeopardy, a source told ESPN's Ramona Shelburne.

With billionaire casino mogul Sheldon Adelson angrily withdrawing from the Raiders' stadium deal on Monday, investment bank Goldman Sachs is also re-evaluating its relationship with the planned deal, a source close to the negotiations told Shelburne.