Mx1x1
Member
Thank you both! I ordered 5 bottles. Excited to try my first transdermal product
Alpha Gel by XPG - Natural Testosterone & Libido Support Gel - Available Now
- Thread starter sns8778
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Thank you both! I ordered 5 bottles. Excited to try my first transdermal product
Mx1x1
Member
Upped the dose to 4 pumps/day (2 morning, 2 evening) and I like it a lot better. A great mood boost
sns8778
Board Sponsor
When posting things and accusations like this, please back up what you are saying.
Banned by sports - which sports?
Do you mean WADA?
Do you mean NCAA?
Because if so, then there are many things that you can buy off the shelf in Wal-Mart or any pharmacy that are banned by WADA such as DHEA, 7-Keto DHEA, many cold medicines, etc.
Caffeine is on the considerations list to be banned by WADA next year. Seriously.
Caffeine above certain amounts is already banned by the NCAA.
Things as simple as Colostrum were even banned at one time by WADA and still currently banned by NCAA.
Show me where it is on the WADA list please? What section or what page? I don't mean typing it in google and going off of what a random site says, show me where it is on the actual list please?
And I'm not saying that its not bc the list is confusing as heck and intentionally vague and broad, and almost anything could be considered banned under some of the broad categories of ingredients, But you're the one saying it is, so I'm asking you to show me and others reading where?
And I'm not meaning this to be rude - you're making a strong accusation about something, so I'm just asking you to show me and anyone else reading where you're getting your information.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
If you're a tested athlete, consult your coach/trainer and go by the specific guidelines of your testing or athletic organization.
If you're asking from a health standpoint, then it's irrelevant because there are many basic things that are banned in sports that don't have anything to do with the average person.
Considering things natural or unnatural and going by the various sporting organization lists is not a good indication of whether things are natural, healthy, safe, or even beneficial.
Here are some examples:
- Colostrum: Colostrum is banned by the NCAA and was at one time banned by WADA.
- Caffeine: Caffeine above certain amounts is banned by the NCAA and caffeine is listed on the considerations list that may be banned by WADA next year.
- Phenethylamine: Phenethylamine is banned by WADA and the NCAA, but is a naturally occurring trace amine that made in the body, and high concentrations can be found in chocolate. It is also found in win, eggs, natto, and other foods.
- DHEA: DHEA is banned by both WADA and the NCAA.
- 7-Keto DHEA: 7-Keto is banned by both WADA and thee NCAA, but has a proven safety profile for both men and women and has been extensively studied.
Natural doesn't always mean safe and safe doesn't always mean natural.
So the answer to your question I suppose lies in whether you're a tested athlete or if you're asking for health purposes; which if that's the case, I wouldn't go by the a testing list that wasn't applicable to me.
I hope that helps.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I had seen that WebMD link and my best guess is that it is either an error or an old link and that it may have used to have been listed. At one time, WADA considered almost anything that could decrease estrogen a masking agent that people may would use to hide the use of other things or to help beat a test. But that was many years ago and as their testing ability evolved to what it is today, which is pretty extreme and super sensitive, there was no need to keep many of the things on there.
Heck, at one time, WADA considered it doping for IGF-1 if a person used colostrum.
WADA tests are so sensitive now that athletes have failed for clenbuterol for eating a steak out of the country (cows in some countries are given clenbuterol). I saw where one athlete just failed a test bc they shared a vape pen with someone that had used a performance enhancer.
That's why I say that if you aren't a WADA athlete, then the WADA list isn't something I would go off of to determine much of anything.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I really don't understand where you're going with this?
I have answered this and explained this in about as great of detail as I can - going as far as to show you some of the everyday items that are on the WADA list.
I told you in my initial reply that they're intentionally vague and broad and that almost anything could be considered banned by WADA and the NCAA under some of the broad categories of ingredients.
What Rob said:
The statement "including, but not limited to" and my understanding of WADA's rules - all aromatase inhibitors are banned under their ruling.
^^^ Most of the time their lists where they keep it vague are to cover themselves if new ingredients, chemicals, etc. become available that athletes use to mask doping.
Rob is telling you the same thing that I did - that if you're a WADA athlete then you have to be very careful. But if you're not a WADA athlete, then not sure why this applies to you.
I understand wanting to be cautious, wanting to be natural, etc. - but WADA and NCAA testing doesn't have anything to do with that. There are plenty of things that are natural and safe that are banned or restricted - 7-keto, colostrum, caffeine intake, etc.
If you want to be loosely interpret the 'not limited to' statement to cover 7,8-Benzoflavone, then where do you stop? You're comparing supplements to drugs - the things on that AI list are drugs, not supplements. If we're going to carry it over to supplements, where do we stop? DIM? Abieta? Resveratrol? Even Quercetin has AI properties in vitro, so do we not take Quercetin for our allergies or respiratory health anymore?
I hope you see my point there.
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sns8778
Board Sponsor
No one can advise you on what subjective language in the WADA list means. I work with professional athletes and coaches and trainers and they will all tell you the disclaimer that the verbiage of the WADA list is intentionally vague.
You said that you’re not a WADA tested athlete - but you’re concerned with what would show up on a WADA test - which doesn’t apply to a normal person.
If you are really a WADA tested athlete or asking these questions for someone that it - you need to ask their coach, trainer, agent, etc.
I’m not going to tell anyone what will, won’t, can, or can’t show up on a WADA test. Legally, no one should be advising you on that bc of the vagueness of it. And also bc there’s a lot of athletes that when get caught, try to blame supplements when they were using supplements to try to mask what they were doing.
sammpedd88
Well-known member
You can’t use WADA and NCAA guidelines to maintain a natty status unless you’re competing and the federation subscribes to the WADA banned substance list. There’s several natty supplements that are banned by both. As long as you’re not using gear, banned prohormones, and anabolic SARMS, then you’re natty. Don’t make things harder than they are.
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sns8778
Board Sponsor
@sammpedd88 replied perfectly above:
You can’t use WADA and NCAA guidelines to maintain a natty status unless you’re competing and the federation subscribes to the WADA banned substance list. There’s several natty supplements that are banned by both. As long as you’re not using gear, banned prohormones, and anabolic SARMS, then you’re natty. Don’t make things harder than they are.
Most people consider being natural, as @sammpedd88 said above, as not taking steroids, sarm's, prohormones, research chemicals, peptides, etc. Some people take it a step further and won't even use DHEA, 7-Keto/7-OXO DHEA, although most people consider these natural and allowable. Some won't even take things like melatonin.
I have never met or heard of anyone that wanted to go by WADA and NCAA guidelines that wasn't drug tested by the NCAA or WADA - because many of the things that fall under that have no correlation to any normal human being in their day to day life.
Literally no one can tell you what the vague clauses in the WADA guidelines mean - there's no secret list they are hiding or something like that. Their own inspectors may even disagree on whether something falls into one of the 'but not limited to' categories because one may consider something an issue and the next may not. Their goal isn't to care if you take a random herb or ingredient, their goal is making sure people aren't using something than can decrease estrogen to hide the use of anabolics.
But none of it applies to anyone not being tested by the NCAA or WADA.
If you live your life by those guidelines:
- Do you drink coffee? If so, don't drink it too strong or too much or you'd fail.
- Do you drink energy drinks? If so, be careful which ones you drink bc you may fail.
- Don't share a bite of food or a drink with your wife or gf or you could fail if she's taking a prescribed medication that would effect hormone levels.
- If you eat meat, do you eat all organic? (bc if not, you may fail a WADA or NCAA drug test for clen)
By NCAA guidelines, a little 80 year old lady taking Colostrum would be considered doping.
I work with collegiate and pro athletes and their trainers all the time. I'm working with an NCAA athlete right now trying to work their way back after a terrible car accident - they have to be careful of every little thing they do or take bc of the guidelines and they broke their dang back and live in fear of things their doctors even prescribe them. And the reason I mention that is that this conversation about over-thinking 7,8-benzoflavone is beyond the level of what any of them worry about - and they have to worry about it.
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sns8778
Board Sponsor
Eurycomanone has been shown to increase the body's natural DHEA levels, which is a very beneficial pathway to optimizing natural hormone levels.
I'm not aware of any direct effect that Tongkat/Eurycomanone has on IFG-1 levels, but I've never put much time into researching that aspect of it either.
Austin118
Member
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I'm sorry, but we don't give out that information.
I don't know of many, if any, topical formulations that give out the exact dosages on the labels.
XPG lists some of the single ingredient product dosages on the label or in the write ups, but not formulas.
There's 2 main reasons for that, not just for XPG but for any topical brand that I know of - 1) A lot of work goes into developing carriers based off of dosages used and you don't want to make it easy for competitors to copy your products, and 2) The dosages for many topicals would confuse the average consumer bc topical dosages vary from the dosages that are used for oral forms of ingredients.
If asking for purposes of stacking with other products, its fine to stack with non-specified for Eurycomanone products, but if stacking with others that are standardized for Eurycomanone, then it should be fine with 1 dose of 300 mg. @ 2% Eurycomanone (1 serving of Tongkat Ali XT or Optimize-T), but I wouldn't go above that (for example, I wouldn't take 2 capsules of Tongkat Ali XT with it, only 1).
Austin118
Member
K thanks
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I don't understand what you mean - asking if the caps are the same as in the gel?
Optimize-T and Tongkat Ali XT both use the Bionutricia Tongkat Ali extract and are capsule forms.
Alpha Gel uses the Bionutricia Tongkat Ali extract and is topical.
Here is the copy and paste from the write up discussing the ingredient and constituents:
What makes Bionutricia® Tongkat Ali Extract so Special?
Bionutricia® Tongkat Ali extract contains a minimum of 2% Eurycomanone and as high as 3% Eurycomanone and each batch of raw materials is tested by the Forest Research Institute of Malaysia (FRIM) to ensure the levels of several key active ingredients, primarily the Eurycomanone of the extract.
At these strengths, standardized Tongkat Ali can be used as a natural testosterone booster and libido enhancer with high dosages also being used as a PDE5 inhibitor to support improved erection quality.
In addition to its high Eurycomanone percentage, Bionutricia® Tongkat Ali extract also contains 30 – 38% Glycosaponins, 28 – 32% Polysaccharides, and 18 – 24% Protein – a truly fully disclosed extract.
Also, Bionutricia® Tongkat Ali extract is extracted using ultrasonic hot water extraction to obtain the water-soluble active ingredients (Eurycomanone, polysaccharides, protein, Glycosaponins) and doesn’t use any harsh solvents or chemicals that some brands use in order to try to achieve higher extract ratios while cutting costs.
K21
Member
Sorry I ment is it just Eurycomanone on its own in the gel or does the gel contain all the constitutes of the capsule version of Bionutricia Tongkat? Thanks
sns8778
Board Sponsor
The write up gives a clear breakdown of the Bionutricia Tongkat Ali, which is one of the big advantages of that particular version of the ingredient because it does disclose the exact breakdown and is consistent from batch to batch whereas a generic 2% may have varying levels of constituents from batch to batch.
Just checking as am health conscious would this be anything to worrie about talks about dna damage from Tongkat, ,was thinking the skin is first point of contact for Tongkat in gel form, here's a bit of the text below?
has the potential to induce DNA damage, which is of concern, particularly locally for tissues that represent first sites of contact.
Safety of Eurycoma longifolia (Tongkat Ali) root extract as a novel food pursuant to Regulation (EU) 2015/2283 - PubMed
Following a request from the European Commission, the EFSA Panel on Nutrition, Novel Foods and Food Allergens (NDA) was asked to deliver an opinion on <i>Eurycoma longifolia</i> (Tongkat Ali) root extract as a novel food (NF) pursuant to Regulation (EU) 2015/2283. The NF is standardised water...pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
I know that things can come off wrong over the computer sometimes, so I want to clarify that I don't mean this rudely, but these are serious questions:
Did you read the context of what you just posted?
Did you actually look at the article itself?
Direct copy and paste from the abstract you posted:
The NF induced positive results at the highest dose tested (2,000 mg/kg body weight (bw)) at the tissues of the first site of contact (stomach and duodenum).
Here is an elaboration on that from the actual study:
While the positive results observed at the highest dose of the NF tested (2,500 μg/mL) may have been caused by cytotoxicity, no signs of overt cytotoxicity were seen at the low‐ and mid‐dose group (500 and 1,000 μg/mL).
Something super relevant here:
Something I found noticeably absent from the study - and I'm not going to spend all day looking for it - is that first site of contact is stomach and duodenum - you presented this like it was supposed to apply to topical application - but how do you apply something topically to the small intestine?
At first glance, it would seem like the site of application in this case would be via injection as its not humanly possible to apply something topically directly to the intestine unless you're laying there sliced open - in which case, the whole issues is the least of your problems
Now, that leads into something else super relevant:
Do you realize that the same agency that wrote this review deems silica to be unsafe? You know, the ingredient that is in basically every hair, skin, and nails product?
Why? Because silica may be unsafe when inhaled if the particle size is small enough - which has absolutely nothing to do with taking it in a supplement form or its use in cosmetics.
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DaveMcNaul
Member
So don’t even check the ibuprofen, acetaminophen or you go a little be further, finasteride studies, side effects etc etc…
I rather take tongkat ali x1000 than other fda “super safe” stuff.
I’m not comparing tongkat to nsaids, I’m just saying that if you read studies, the studies sometimes are not accurate, for multiple purposes, interpretations etc
I rather take tongkat ali x1000 than other fda “super safe” stuff.
I’m not comparing tongkat to nsaids, I’m just saying that if you read studies, the studies sometimes are not accurate, for multiple purposes, interpretations etc
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I'm saying that you say that you are not a WADA/NCAA tested athlete but you're spending more time worrying about something that you say doesn't apply to you than people do that it would apply to.
You keep asking questions like you're trying to bait me into saying that a WADA/NCAA tested athlete can take something - like you just did again in that post.
sammpedd88
Well-known member
sns8778
Board Sponsor
For you to ask that means that you've read the same as I have - that some places say that it is naturally occurring in trace amounts in passion flower and some sources say it isn't.
What I find interesting is that on one hand, you're so worried about if something is banned by WADA/NCAA testing, yet you say you aren't tested by them anyway - but then on the other hand, a look through your post history shows that you've used things that I would never use myself and I could care less about WADA testing because it has nothing to do with me.
K21
Member
Yes years ago I did a lot of experimenting, but nowadays from a health and ethical stand point very selective in supplements, just a personal feeling.
K21
Member
No troll mate must of come across the wrong way
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I wasn't talking about anything ph or hormone related - I was referring to supplement choices.
I'm very health oriented and very selective about what supplements and brands I will and won't use - and you've posted about using things that I wouldn't put in my body if you gave them to me for free.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I've always been nice to you and tried to answer your questions.
I've answered your questions in this thread about 7,8-Benzoflavone over and over, and don't appreciate the way you tried to bait me tonight into answering it differently.
The way this comes off is that you've tried multiple times in this thread to post something negative about the product - like trying to pass off an excerpt about injectable Tongkat causing tissue damage to the internal organ its injected into as having anything to do with topical application.
Add that to your negative comments about Ursa-Gel in another thread and that you were "concerned" with it being in a plastic bottle because of possible leeching - when every td prescription I'm aware of is in a plastic bottle and the number one cause of leeching of plastics is reusing a thin plastic water bottle - right at the time that another brand that offers theirs in glass was trying to push their sale on their Ursa product.
I still answered you politely and respectfully through all of it - but that baiting thing tonight was pretty blatant.
If you have legitimate questions, you're welcome to ask - but no matter how many times you ask the same question about 7,8-Benzoflavone a different way, the answer is going to be the same.
Jeremy1
Active member
Interesting. My wife just started working out again. This might be something she would like and use. Maybe I will see if she will use it in a few months.
Funny, I was going to start using this today, but instead I opened up a bottle of M-test. Maybe I will run it with it or wait until after the M-Test to see which I prefer.
Dustin07
Legend
One of the reasons I trust and like SNS products so much. I've had many long chats with Steve (you know, actual phone calls like grandpa used to do, lol) and his focus on quality ingredients is top notch, IMO.
K21
Member
Yes no problem I was just trying to get a clear answer that's all, here look sorry for any hassle il delete all those questions from this chat.I've always been nice to you and tried to answer your questions.
I've answered your questions in this thread about 7,8-Benzoflavone over and over, and don't appreciate the way you tried to bait me tonight into answering it differently.
The way this comes off is that you've tried multiple times in this thread to post something negative about the product - like trying to pass off an excerpt about injectable Tongkat causing tissue damage to the internal organ its injected into as having anything to do with topical application.
Add that to your negative comments about Ursa-Gel in another thread and that you were "concerned" with it being in a plastic bottle because of possible leeching - when every td prescription I'm aware of is in a plastic bottle and the number one cause of leeching of plastics is reusing a thin plastic water bottle - right at the time that another brand that offers theirs in glass was trying to push their sale on their Ursa product.
I still answered you politely and respectfully through all of it - but that baiting thing tonight was pretty blatant.
If you have legitimate questions, you're welcome to ask - but no matter how many times you ask the same question about 7,8-Benzoflavone a different way, the answer is going to be the same.
K21
Member
Was that laxogein, turkesterone, vemo eddy, a blr supp androgin things like that?
sns8778
Board Sponsor
You don't have to delete anything.
I don't mind questions - I just don't understand how you would think I didn't give you a clear answer on the 7,8-Benzoflavone subject because I answered you several times on that and even took the time to explain WADA/NCAA testing to you and how its not accurate to use that as a gauge for 'natural' because simple things like Colostrum that are natural are banned under their guidelines.
Then you brought it back up several times and I answered you again and explained it more in depth.
Then the Tongkat part, I answered you and explained that the link you posted was talking about injecting it into an internal organ and site damage related to that, which has nothing to do with a topical.
Then you brought up the 7,8-Benzoflavone again and phrased your post like I said it was okay for WADA athletes to take, and I have said in multiple posts that how vague the WADA thing is and explained it in so much detail.
^^^ And I'll tell you why that irritated me - because I work with athletes daily and it seemed like you were trying to bait me into agreeing with you and not catching the way you phrased that.
I enjoy discussing supplements and the science and things and I'm always glad to help answer peoples questions - I just hope you can understand that after a certain point of the same questions, it seems like there's more of an agenda than questions - especially after the Ursa-Gel thing and the timing of that.
You don't have to delete anything, and if you have questions, ask away.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I'm not going to comment on particular brands and their products.
What you or anyone else chooses to use is their individual choice.
My point is that you're overanalyzing semantics on 7,8-Benzoflavone that don't even apply to you if you're not a WADA tested athlete, but then talking about using things that there's been legal warning letters from the FDA to companies about saying that the ingredients don't meet the legal definition of dietary supplements and that the FDA has made a public statement on saying they don't meet the definition of a supplement.
So you're worried about if 7,8-Benzoflavone is WADA compliant bc you're equating that to being natural supplement, when you've talked about taking things that the FDA has explicitly said don't meet the legal definition of a dietary supplement. I hope you see my point.
You've also mentioned taking products/ingredients by brands that are obscure overseas brands that you have zero way to know what, if anything they do or don't contain - some of which look like the labels were printed on a 1990's dot matrix printer.
I'm used to you asking questions that are on the 'paranoid side' (not insulting you - you described yourself that way in one of your posts) and that's okay. I'm actually one of few company owners that don't mind questions like that. But in this thread, I answered your questions in great detail. I can't imagine another company owner taking hours to answer the same questions over and over like I have - and I didn't complain a single time - until you posted that last night trying to make it seem like I was saying something I wasn't.
That may not seem like a big deal to you, but as someone that works with athletes, some of which are WADA tested, it comes off as an attempt at a 'Gotcha' type of thing.
I don't mind answering your or anyone's questions - I actually miss when there was more good supplement discussion here on AM.
K21
Member
No no not at all wasn't a gotcha type of thing was more to be able to finalise my decision getting the green light to go-ahead justifying it in my mind kind of thing.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
Here's the thing - WADA statements don't apply to you because you're not a tested athlete. They don't apply to me because I'm not a tested athlete. But I do work with athletes who are tested athletes.
I explained to you in great detail that no, it is not on the WADA banned list, but that no one can tell you what the vague clauses on the WADA list could be interpreted as - because they are intentionally vague. One WADA examiner may even disagree with another one over what those clauses mean.
I explained WADA in so much detail to you that an athlete that reads here but doesn't post, who I had never communicated with before, pm'd me and said that I should take those posts and turn them into an article to help people that are WADA tested understand WADA better.
You said that you're not a WADA/NCAA athlete, and I along with others in this thread explained to you that normal everyday people don't use those guidelines to determine if they're natural - if they did, then every woman in the country that uses Colostrum is doping
So after all that - when you post - are you saying they would be able to use 78 benzoflavone and that's why it wouldn't worry them? (talking about WADA athletes I work with) << No, I didn't say that. I told you in great detail several times already that the ingredient is not specifically banned but the WADA list is intentionally vague. And that's what made it seem like you were trying to make some type of 'Gotcha' type thing because after hours of my time going into explaining something to you, you said that.
You've used things I would absolutely never use from a quality and compliance standpoint and things that if you gave me for free, I'd throw in the trash, and things that if a WADA athlete asked me if they could try, my answer would be absolutely hell (fill in the blank with about every cuss word I can think of) no.
That's why I don't understand the length that you're going to to worry about 7,8-Benzoflavone.
I hope that makes sense.
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K21
Member
reading my question again I worded it wrong sorry , should not of said [are you saying] as in you directly. Absolutely see your point understand loud and clear thank you for your time, insight and knowledge. All the bestHere's the thing - WADA statements don't apply to you because you're not a tested athlete. They don't apply to me because I'm not a tested athlete. But I do work with athletes who are tested athletes.
I explained to you in great detail that no, it is not on the WADA banned list, but that no one can tell you what the vague clauses on the WADA list could be interpreted as - because they are intentionally vague. One WADA examiner may even disagree with another one over what those clauses mean.
I explained WADA in so much detail to you that an athlete that reads here but doesn't post, who I had never communicated with before, pm'd me and said that I should take those posts and turn them into an article to help people that are WADA tested understand WADA better.
You said that you're not a WADA/NCAA athlete, and I along with others in this thread explained to you that normal everyday people don't use those guidelines to determine if they're natural - if they did, then every woman in the country that uses Colostrum is doping
So after all that - when you post - are you saying they would be able to use 78 benzoflavone and that's why it wouldn't worry them? (talking about WADA athletes I work with) << No, I didn't say that. I told you in great detail several times already that the ingredient is not specifically banned but the WADA list is intentionally vague. And that's what made it seem like you were trying to make some type of 'Gotcha' type thing because after hours of my time going into explaining something to you, you said that.
You've used things I would absolutely never use from a quality and compliance standpoint and things that if you gave me for free, I'd throw in the trash, and things that if a WADA athlete asked me if they could try, my answer would be absolutely hell (fill in the blank with about every cuss word I can think of) no.
That's why I don't understand the length that you're going to to worry about 7,8-Benzoflavone.
I hope that makes sense.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
reading my question again I worded it wrong sorry , should not of said [are you saying] as in you directly. Absolutely see your point understand loud and clear thank you for your time, insight and knowledge. All the best
No problem. I'm always glad to answer questions. I'm glad you can see with the initial phrasing how that came off the way that it did.
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I wouldn't yo-yo the dose back and forth. I would suggest finding the dose you like and using that.
Starting at 2 ml is fine and then you could go up to 3 ml or 4 ml, which 4 ml being the ideal dose.
Dustin07
Legend
I hit it hard with the max recommended dose when coming off something epiandro or var. I keep it in my stable for if I'm feeling off. If I wake up without morning wood one morning, I'll hit a little alpha gel that night and I'm back to being miserable by 3:30am the next day lol. I find Alpha Gel is pretty dang good. that and M-Test are my two favorites for just overall feeling like a boost of T.