Markoni321
Member
BCAA are great supplement , I'm taking mix of BCAA and leucine from trueprotein.com
arena
Guest
lol at u thinking i was being taken to school. just cause someone says "their essential" does not mean they are correct. plus, dont forget i am factoring in the money factor. if money wasnt a factor, we'd all be taking muscletech, right. lol.
dont forget about the glutamine craze. huge hype was built up by the supplement companies. now there are reports saying most of the glutamine is used by the digestive system, and never makes it to muscle. so who knows.
Xodus
Well-known member
I think that everyone here understands that 'essential' means that your body cannot synthesize them from other chemicals in your body, they must be consumed from food. If you do not understand that then you have no right to be commenting on this topic.
X
kabuki
Well-known member
agreed.
as for costs. in the scenario posted earlier where i was at 400g/day of protein (supplemented) and dropped the protein supps so i just have 120-150g/day of whole food protein with 80g BCAA's daily, the end cost is pretty much the same.
If you were doing both it would negativly impact the wallet, but in my case no impact....same results, same costs, less calories so it helps in my recomp.
kabuki
JJC
Well-known member
I think you're kidding about this, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
BCAAs are not hype. Whether they come from whole foods or from supplemental powders, they are the most potent anabolic amino acids. Go back and re-read that one study that Xodus pointed out above. Supplementation was done with high gi carbs, high gi carbs + protein hydrolysate, and high gi carbs + protein hydrolysate + leucine. Looks like there was a definitive difference between leucine supplementation and lack thereof. Some, if not all, of that leucine made it past the digestive system...there are many other studies out there worth reading as well.
JJC
Well-known member
I really don't think BCAAs receive any more hype than any other product out there right now. Actually, I think that most newbs have never heard of it and how much it can make a difference. Instead they are jumping into the latest stacks before they understand how BCAAs can become a staple along side vitamins, whey, fish oil, and creatine.
Strange how all things that cost money have that correlation...sounds like a capitalist conspiracy to me...:ntome:
JJC
Well-known member
ReaperX
Well-known member
I might try the 'kabuki approach' and use less protein and substitute some BCAAs instead.
I had a very bad expierence with Xtend from Scivation, so I might give nutraplanet's bulk bcaas a whirl since it appears it does not have any artifical flavoring.
This probably will happen next year at best.
I had a very bad expierence with Xtend from Scivation, so I might give nutraplanet's bulk bcaas a whirl since it appears it does not have any artifical flavoring.
This probably will happen next year at best.
JJC
Well-known member
Oh yeah that's it. I shoulda just turned around and looked at the labels on my barrels and barrels of that awesome stuff.
On a serious note, I've heard of people having digestive problems with BCAAs. I don't know if it ever was directly correlated with the BCAAs themselves, the artifical flavoring, or something else people were taking. But if you do enough research, you should be able to find one that has given very few problems to people. If you do go the bulk route, mix it with something with a fruit flavoring like sugar free crystal light mix or a flavor packet. People usually don't respond well to the taste of bulk.
And I think Kabuki is replacing some protein with BCAAs because he is looking for a reduction in total caloric intake. If that fits your goals, then try that. Otherwise you should either just bracket your workouts with it or spread it throughout the day(like upon waking, pre w/o, post w/o, pre bed).
donk
Member
BCAA's may not be necessary while bulking but I still will always take 20grams bcaa's with 40grams carb powder during training. Every once and a while I run out and notice a decline in strength on Max Effort days. (I use modified westside routine)
After 3 years of supplement BCAA's during and preworkout I am convinced of there effectiveness.
After 3 years of supplement BCAA's during and preworkout I am convinced of there effectiveness.
EctoPower
Active member
Yeah, definitely go bulk. I agree that the taste is awful and you'll have to find the right thing to mix it with. I mix mine right in with post-workout protein shake, which sometimes includes orange flavored pre-load creatine, or on my non-creatine days a bunch of AST's DGC (sugar). In both cases, the nasty bulk BCAA taste is pretty well masked. It's in the evening when I just mix it with skim milk that I want to gag. So I brush my teeth right after and go to bed!
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
Because we add in Skunk Urine Extract for freshness.
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
Hmmm *smells current tub of WMS* (now sinner looks like that scene from scarface), I guess this one doesn't smell bad. The last batch of WMS I had smelled wicked horrible, I guess it must've just been old, sat in my car in the sun too long, or something (and didn't have your skunk urine extract).
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
maybe I am thinking of Kwik Karb ULTRA.
nycste
Well-known member
your my boy blue
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
If you're taking too many free form aminos at once it has a tendency to go right thru you.
If NP's bulk BCAA's give you the same issue, try taking with a small amount of solid food to slow them down.
ReaperX
Well-known member
I really believe it is the l-glutamine specifically. I've bought before a small bulk tub of l-glutamine, and the only thing that occured from using it is excellent laxative expierences and a lighter wallet.
I've used other PrimaForce/SciVation products with the artifical flavoring with no problem, but anytime glutamine is added into the equation so is runny poo.
Frequency
Active member
Damn if i could afford 50 bucks a week on bcaas i would.
beebab
Member
what do you guys think would be the best way to supplement with straight leucine? i'm bulking now, so i don't particularly see the dire need for BCAAs as I would were I cutting, but I still take them regardless only because they are a natural anti-catabolic and i hate cortisol..
i always drink whey protein 30 min prior to working out and the ON protein I'm using as of now contains over 5 g BCAAs per scoop. So with 2 scoops I get 10 grams roughly.
I bought straight Leucine from NP because I read that Leucine plays a larger role in synthesizing proteins. I'm not worried about being in imbalance of the three BCAAs b/c I get enough of the others in my protein.
So my question is what would be the best way to dose Leucine? Also, timing? Would 10 g immediately pre and during my w/o be sufficient?
i always drink whey protein 30 min prior to working out and the ON protein I'm using as of now contains over 5 g BCAAs per scoop. So with 2 scoops I get 10 grams roughly.
I bought straight Leucine from NP because I read that Leucine plays a larger role in synthesizing proteins. I'm not worried about being in imbalance of the three BCAAs b/c I get enough of the others in my protein.
So my question is what would be the best way to dose Leucine? Also, timing? Would 10 g immediately pre and during my w/o be sufficient?
beebab
Member
yeah that sounds like a good idea. thanks a lot for the quick response, im about to go lift so i'll try that out today
warbird01
Well-known member
You should take 3g between yours meals (Got this from Layne Norton who is actaully studying the effects of Leucine on protein synthesis so he knows his sh1t)
I just bought 1000g Leucine too and am about to start doing this
beebab
Member
interesting. maybe i'll give that a try. i drank 16 grams of Leucine throughout my lift today and it was the nastiest **** I've ever had. i gotta mix the powder with something for sweetening b/c it tasted like pure ass.
nycste
Well-known member
so this translates too taking
1 serving BCAAs? betwn meals am i correct?
so doing 20g of BCAAs btw meals for 60-80g daily is ideal
Rodja
Board Sponsor
What exactly did he say about the timing and dosing?
Xodus
Well-known member
This thread went from its a useless, expensive placebo, to causing diarrhea, to optimal timing/dosing schedules.
I love it...
:cheers:
X
arena
Guest
when i said essential i meant in the sense that it is a must in ur diet. not essential, when referring to what your body is able to produce
Beige
Member
correct me if i'm wrong but ON whey doesn't contain free form amino's/bcaa's. they list the high concentration of bcaa because that specific isolate protein is rich in bcaa's. that does make it a better protein, however since the bcaa's are bound to a protein chain they don't offer as much of the benefits as a free form bcaa drink would.
Rodja
Board Sponsor
Bingo, well said.
Xodus
Well-known member
I don't care what you meant, 'essential' amino acids means your body cannot synthesize them and they must be consumed. Scientific term, not mine.
If someone reads 'essential' amino acids and takes it the way you did, they should read a little more before they start putting stuff in their bodies.
Again, if you think that is the definition of essential, then you have no reason to be participating in this thread.
X
Jstedt
New member
from dinoiii's Clinical Underground
In February of 2007, an informal bodybuilding poll was taken regarding the efficacy of BCAAs
while attempting a cut. The results were astoundingly in favor of BCAAs having either no effect
on fat loss or even a negative impact on fat loss. This is not surprising to me as I had readily
explained earlier that month that the science is flawed which is what prompted the survey in the
first place.
One of the critical things that is seemingly forgotten here is the dietary modification that goes
along with the word "dieting" - especially for those that choose to manipulate carbohydrates
(which these days, seem to be many).
Rationale for carbohydrate manipulation is 2-fold:
(1) Insulin Modulation
(2) Glycogen Depletion
Both processes of which are thrown off kilter by adding copious amounts of BCAAs.
Furthermore, a few grams of BCAAs in light of a bodybuilder who almost always adds
additional protein to a heavily protein-laiden existence likely make an inconsequential impact to
say the least on the overall fat-free mass of the person opting to supplement with them.
More so, when you add whey protein in to the equation (which I am assuming many, if not all
employ to some degree in their dieting excursions), with a 26% concentration of BCAAs and
14% concentration of leucine, in particular - additional "aid" will not be seen by appreciable
degrees with adding this supplement.
I am, by NO MEANS, suggesting that BCAAs don't have a place in a "mass" phase of your
periodized dieting schemes. However, we must not forget the science of dieting - namely
ketogenics...and the pathway is well established how this occurs:
Model any bodybuilder reading supplement adds has had beaten into their head:
leucine ---> through oxidation ---> alanine + glutamine ---> glucose ---> insulinomimetic
(anabolic) concurrent pathways such as initiation factors + PI3 (via mTOR), et al.
Together, insulin and leucine allow skeletal muscle to coordinate protein synthesis. However, we
are forgetting that even lipolysis is a catabolic process. There are actually well-established
protein-sparing events that take place with carbohydrate-restriction, but this is the prototype (the
true ketogenic, NOT what society has translated it as late...ketogenic is NO-Carb, NOT lowcarb).
The idea behind ketogenics are to deplete glycogen stores (#2 on my list above). After BCAA
oxidation, alanine is formed and released into the blood where it moves into the liver to support
hepatic gluconeogenesis - the production of glucose from non carbohydrate sources.
Model #2 that is far too often forgotten:
alanine > pyruvate > glucose > pyruvate > "alanine cycle" allows for hepatic glucose
production and the maintenance of blood glucose, which is NOT what you want in
depleting glycogen.
Ketogenic Example: The primary adaptation when carbs are removed from the body is a shift of
fuel utilization from glucose to Free Fatty Acid (FFA) in most tissues - this is so the brain can
soak up what little remaining glucose is essentially "spared" as it adapts to ketone usage.
You already get one contributing center to this whole gluconeogenic process with bone marrow,
leukocytes (white blood cells) and erythrocytes (red blood cells) using that little glucose left over
as well - often as a toss up for the brain see, but the brain will give in...because it is aware that
those three guys actually break down glucose to lactate and pyruvate (at least in part) which are
shunted to the liver and the gluconeogenic process is begun.
If you throw a wrench in this picture, like offering gluconeogenic substrate - only stimulation of
lipogenesis will occur. The ONLY way for lipolysis to dominate is allowing this process to occur
on its own.
Model #3
glycogen in liver broken down gluconeogenesis glucose from glycerol (yup, only if it is
allowed to) + lactate/pyruvate + aa: alanine and glutamine, as they are released from
muscle.
See, our primary concern and I understand it...is conservation of muscle tissue...BUT with the
induction of starvation, serum alanine and glutamine levels both increase to A VERY LARGE
DEGREE....this alanine is sufficient to offer itself back up to the process - supplemental alanine
is NOT NEEDED and could impede lipolysis - the rationale for going through such drastic
measures in the first place. ONLY after 1 week will blood alanine levels begin to drop and
uptake by the kidneys decreases - this is PROTEIN SPARING...your desire during this whole
thing is in fact, protein sparing - you must give it enough time to take place...supplemental
induction agents may prove to have some worth (like R-ALA or what have you to help get you to
this depicted "fasted" state sooner, but outside of that both supplemental alanine as well as
glutamine are pointless and could prove detrimental if fat loss is the goal).
That all said, many of the "low-carbohydrate" diets are not ketogenic NOR should they be
mistaken for the same thing...they will allow you to lose weight - YES, but this weight loss is
more through insulin modulation than it is the process of glycogen depletion and subsequent
lipolytic domains.
For those that say, “nah Dr. Houser - what a load crap BCAA supplements rule!” That is fine
too; it is one viewpoint. Anecdotally, however, if BCAAs had offered contribution to fat loss,
we'd be living in a world of thin people. It will be ok to look in the mirror and then look in your
"supplement stash" - namely if dieting.
See, the mere premise of offering blanket statements is what is MOST disturbing and NEVER
have I seen such a site do this based on the results of one study, namely one published a decade
prior. And for ketogenic diets, they really could prove disastrous and have in MANY instances.
And this is coming from someone NOT trying to market a thing to you.
And so finally, I present you with this month’s poll question:
Do BCAA supplements have any value to aiding a “cutting” diet?
Email your responses to [email protected]
Mechanism of Action
Formestane = 4OHAD -or- 4-OH-A -or- 4-Hydroxyandrostenedione
In February of 2007, an informal bodybuilding poll was taken regarding the efficacy of BCAAs
while attempting a cut. The results were astoundingly in favor of BCAAs having either no effect
on fat loss or even a negative impact on fat loss. This is not surprising to me as I had readily
explained earlier that month that the science is flawed which is what prompted the survey in the
first place.
One of the critical things that is seemingly forgotten here is the dietary modification that goes
along with the word "dieting" - especially for those that choose to manipulate carbohydrates
(which these days, seem to be many).
Rationale for carbohydrate manipulation is 2-fold:
(1) Insulin Modulation
(2) Glycogen Depletion
Both processes of which are thrown off kilter by adding copious amounts of BCAAs.
Furthermore, a few grams of BCAAs in light of a bodybuilder who almost always adds
additional protein to a heavily protein-laiden existence likely make an inconsequential impact to
say the least on the overall fat-free mass of the person opting to supplement with them.
More so, when you add whey protein in to the equation (which I am assuming many, if not all
employ to some degree in their dieting excursions), with a 26% concentration of BCAAs and
14% concentration of leucine, in particular - additional "aid" will not be seen by appreciable
degrees with adding this supplement.
I am, by NO MEANS, suggesting that BCAAs don't have a place in a "mass" phase of your
periodized dieting schemes. However, we must not forget the science of dieting - namely
ketogenics...and the pathway is well established how this occurs:
Model any bodybuilder reading supplement adds has had beaten into their head:
leucine ---> through oxidation ---> alanine + glutamine ---> glucose ---> insulinomimetic
(anabolic) concurrent pathways such as initiation factors + PI3 (via mTOR), et al.
Together, insulin and leucine allow skeletal muscle to coordinate protein synthesis. However, we
are forgetting that even lipolysis is a catabolic process. There are actually well-established
protein-sparing events that take place with carbohydrate-restriction, but this is the prototype (the
true ketogenic, NOT what society has translated it as late...ketogenic is NO-Carb, NOT lowcarb).
The idea behind ketogenics are to deplete glycogen stores (#2 on my list above). After BCAA
oxidation, alanine is formed and released into the blood where it moves into the liver to support
hepatic gluconeogenesis - the production of glucose from non carbohydrate sources.
Model #2 that is far too often forgotten:
alanine > pyruvate > glucose > pyruvate > "alanine cycle" allows for hepatic glucose
production and the maintenance of blood glucose, which is NOT what you want in
depleting glycogen.
Ketogenic Example: The primary adaptation when carbs are removed from the body is a shift of
fuel utilization from glucose to Free Fatty Acid (FFA) in most tissues - this is so the brain can
soak up what little remaining glucose is essentially "spared" as it adapts to ketone usage.
You already get one contributing center to this whole gluconeogenic process with bone marrow,
leukocytes (white blood cells) and erythrocytes (red blood cells) using that little glucose left over
as well - often as a toss up for the brain see, but the brain will give in...because it is aware that
those three guys actually break down glucose to lactate and pyruvate (at least in part) which are
shunted to the liver and the gluconeogenic process is begun.
If you throw a wrench in this picture, like offering gluconeogenic substrate - only stimulation of
lipogenesis will occur. The ONLY way for lipolysis to dominate is allowing this process to occur
on its own.
Model #3
glycogen in liver broken down gluconeogenesis glucose from glycerol (yup, only if it is
allowed to) + lactate/pyruvate + aa: alanine and glutamine, as they are released from
muscle.
See, our primary concern and I understand it...is conservation of muscle tissue...BUT with the
induction of starvation, serum alanine and glutamine levels both increase to A VERY LARGE
DEGREE....this alanine is sufficient to offer itself back up to the process - supplemental alanine
is NOT NEEDED and could impede lipolysis - the rationale for going through such drastic
measures in the first place. ONLY after 1 week will blood alanine levels begin to drop and
uptake by the kidneys decreases - this is PROTEIN SPARING...your desire during this whole
thing is in fact, protein sparing - you must give it enough time to take place...supplemental
induction agents may prove to have some worth (like R-ALA or what have you to help get you to
this depicted "fasted" state sooner, but outside of that both supplemental alanine as well as
glutamine are pointless and could prove detrimental if fat loss is the goal).
That all said, many of the "low-carbohydrate" diets are not ketogenic NOR should they be
mistaken for the same thing...they will allow you to lose weight - YES, but this weight loss is
more through insulin modulation than it is the process of glycogen depletion and subsequent
lipolytic domains.
For those that say, “nah Dr. Houser - what a load crap BCAA supplements rule!” That is fine
too; it is one viewpoint. Anecdotally, however, if BCAAs had offered contribution to fat loss,
we'd be living in a world of thin people. It will be ok to look in the mirror and then look in your
"supplement stash" - namely if dieting.
See, the mere premise of offering blanket statements is what is MOST disturbing and NEVER
have I seen such a site do this based on the results of one study, namely one published a decade
prior. And for ketogenic diets, they really could prove disastrous and have in MANY instances.
And this is coming from someone NOT trying to market a thing to you.
And so finally, I present you with this month’s poll question:
Do BCAA supplements have any value to aiding a “cutting” diet?
Email your responses to [email protected]
Mechanism of Action
Formestane = 4OHAD -or- 4-OH-A -or- 4-Hydroxyandrostenedione
herkfsu
New member
When there is a study over a few months or so comparing those who take whey and those who take BCAAs showing the actual gains from BCAAs ill listen. If it leads to greater muscle mass it is defiantly not noticeable. I still believe it is too expensive for its supposed benefits. To each his own.
Beelzebub
Registered User
want a hug?
thesinner
Recovering AXoholic
would this offer carry over for me?
Xodus
Well-known member
Hahaha Sorry. Long day at work...
It just seems silly to be discussing this topic when a basic understanding of what 'essential' means is lacking.
X
Xodus
Well-known member
Maybe I missed it in there, but I believe everyone here has said that BCAA's were muscle sparing on a cut, not that they 'aided' in fat loss. This article says that BCAA's may slow down fat loss (doesn't mention muscle sparing) and then goes on to say that Alanine is protein sparing never really mentioning BCAA's again.
X
dsade
NutraPlanet Fanatic
Now wouldn't a truly SMART company fortify their protein powder with free-form (I know this is techinically not correct) BCAAs?
nycste
Well-known member
who does this. and id imagine it would cost a lot more