Pheraplex and the heart
- Thread starter jasonschaffin
- Start date
jasonschaffin
Well-known member
DMT minus the alcohol group, so DMT minus an -OH.
Here is DMT
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Test has a double bond that seems to keep it from binding in the heart.
DHT is Test with two extra hydrogens taking away the double bond. Only difference. It binds in the heart AR.
DMT is DHT w/o the keto group and an extra methyl on the carbon with the -OH. Does not have the test double bond.
DHT and Test
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Now obviously all speculation but it seems that DHT is binding to the AR in the heart. Also seems DMT is. The thing DHT and DMT do have in common is the -OH and not having a double bond where test does, as the Keto doesn't seem to matter. If DMT loses it's extra methyl upon metabolism it would be DHT w/o a Keto (=O).
Now if I try to speculate and read into what Dr.D says I get this. Epi is DMT with a episulfur where the double bond of DMT is. If Epi loses its -OH and its sulfur (forming a double bond ala DMT) it is DMT without an alcohol (-OH). If it would lose its extra methyl it is even closer to DHT. DHT and DMT are the same in all but two regards, they do both however, have hydroxyl (-OH) groups. The sulfur would keep it from binding to the AR in the heart first and after it metabolizes and loses the -OH it will not bind in the heart. If however it metabolizes and loses its sulfur first then it is DMT and would seem to bind in the heart. So really it would seem to depend on how the body first metabolizes Epi.
unmethylated epi
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Add a methyl at the 17th carbon where the -OH is for epi/havoc
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/55290-havoc.html
jasonschaffin
Well-known member
All three are very similar really.
DR.D
Well-known member
Hey guys! I have been warning people about DMT induced heart enlargement for awhile, I thought this was common knowledge by now. Here's the thing, as long as you keep it to one PP cycle per year, I think you're probably fine. If you are the typical bb here and do 2-4 cycles a year then just don't use PP every time! If you have symptoms of cardiac inefficiency (lightheaded, fatigue, shortness of breath) then ramp off and stay off and avoid it in the future, your heart will recover to it's proper size. You can take an aspirin till signs go away because the real concern would be blood pooling in the chambers and possible clot formation, so keep the blood thin. Reservatrol helps with this also no matter what other intrinsic benefit it may or may not have on the heart directly. Digoxin would help too but that gets complicated so not an option here.
Hey Zero, I have Wolff-Parkinson White too (AKA: pre-ventricular excitation) and only had 2 "white-outs" my whole life. Both times after a heavy set of squats. The docs told me I should have my accessory pathway ablated almost 15 years ago or I would be passing out all the time once I got to 35, not to mention the risk of sudden death. I'm 35 now and haven't had a symptom since I was a teenager so the juice might not help but it sure doesn't hurt! God knows I've pushed myself hard. I use to run 6 miles a day and smoke a pack a day too and never had issues. Go figure.
As for Epi and Havoc, after reviewing the data of ALL the chromatographic evidence, I don't believe either compound has DMT in it. I noticed very good endurance on Epi actually. The 2-ene ion profile shows that it's just a product of ionization in the analysis process, not a metabolite of or contaminant in the product. Obviously, the gyno benefits would not be apparent if it were, if anything PP promotes gyno, not corrects it. Epi contains one pure compound. Havoc contains 2 major compounds, but none of them are DMT so not to worry.
Hey Zero, I have Wolff-Parkinson White too (AKA: pre-ventricular excitation) and only had 2 "white-outs" my whole life. Both times after a heavy set of squats. The docs told me I should have my accessory pathway ablated almost 15 years ago or I would be passing out all the time once I got to 35, not to mention the risk of sudden death. I'm 35 now and haven't had a symptom since I was a teenager so the juice might not help but it sure doesn't hurt! God knows I've pushed myself hard. I use to run 6 miles a day and smoke a pack a day too and never had issues. Go figure.
As for Epi and Havoc, after reviewing the data of ALL the chromatographic evidence, I don't believe either compound has DMT in it. I noticed very good endurance on Epi actually. The 2-ene ion profile shows that it's just a product of ionization in the analysis process, not a metabolite of or contaminant in the product. Obviously, the gyno benefits would not be apparent if it were, if anything PP promotes gyno, not corrects it. Epi contains one pure compound. Havoc contains 2 major compounds, but none of them are DMT so not to worry.
jasonschaffin
Well-known member
Here I go doing all this speculating and then you show up. DR.D, do you know how Epi is metabolized by the body?? You don't seem worried in the least so I'm assuming not into DMT.
DR.D
Well-known member
No, I'm not too worried about it. There is no specific enzyme system present in the body to metabolize Epi to DHT or DMT. It is excreted virtually unchanged as best as I can find. The 17-OH would not be reduced or oxidized either due to the steric protection of the methyl. It may be hydroxylated in the 6,7,11,16,etc.. positions so that conjugates can be formed. After seeing my bloodwork and knowing how I feel on it though, I do trust it to a very high degree.
Zero Tolerance
Registered User
Well look at that. We have something in common.. I'm not sure what a "white-out" is.. My heart used to race at 300+ beats per minute and stay there until I slowed it down manually, or IV medication kicked in. I remember lots of nurses coming in to see it for themselves.. Of course, the doctors were worried about heart atrophy... Eventually, I had the ablation done - and it was nothing. The doctor was telling jokes as he was doing it. The worst parts were sitting naked on the cold table, the HAMMERING of the needle (with a camera) into my neck (holy crap are neck muscles strong!) - which didn't really hurt because of pain killers, and sitting in bed like 24 hours afterwards without moving my leg!
I was back to MMA training a week later (light, of course). I'll be 36 in September and I'm still alive.. Basically no more cardiovascular issues at this point...
bioman
Well-known member
"Hey guys! I have been warning people about DMT induced heart enlargement for awhile, I thought this was common knowledge by now. Here's the thing, as long as you keep it to one PP cycle per year, I think you're probably fine. If you are the typical bb here and do 2-4 cycles a year then just don't use PP every time! If you have symptoms of cardiac inefficiency (lightheaded, fatigue, shortness of breath) then ramp off and stay off and avoid it in the future, your heart will recover to it's proper size."
Ooooo, all makes sense now. Hadn't really heard that about PP. Me and my gigantic heart will uppping our rez and fish oil intake, lol. Actually, I am always on those and now, Arjuna and daily pomegranite juice. I'd recommend those to everyone.
Ooooo, all makes sense now. Hadn't really heard that about PP. Me and my gigantic heart will uppping our rez and fish oil intake, lol. Actually, I am always on those and now, Arjuna and daily pomegranite juice. I'd recommend those to everyone.
DR.D
Well-known member
300, are you serious! Wow, and you're BP wouldn't crash through the floor? A white out is the same as a black out, except everything just turns white instead. My pulse rarely exceeded 180, even when I'd really push it, I always got so nauseated, I would have to slow down at that point. I did get a weird arrhythmic beat coming back down though. It's odd, it never progressed and got worse like they said it would. It's probably been years since I even thought about it until you mentioned it just now and I thought, hey, no wonder me and ZT always got along so well! :cheers:
DR.D
Well-known member
Yeah, the arjuna is great stuff. Very promising cholesterol correction.
Oh man, I was gonna say something real corny and sappy, like you had such a big heart anyway you didn't need the PP, but now I forget so never mind!
Chad
Banned
Yeah, the arjuna is great stuff. Very promising cholesterol correction.
Oh man, I was gonna say something real corny and sappy, like you had such a big heart anyway you didn't need the PP, but now I forget so never mind!
ewwwwww. D is a softy!!:toofunny: :toofunny:
jk buddy.
DR.D
Well-known member
That's why I had to back out man, it was gonna sound way too gay. Like something I would expect to hear from you. :toofunny:
Chad
Banned
hey hey hey. just cause im on clomid doesn`t make me gay! i might cry a little more than normal but im not a pillow fighter!
Ubiquitous
Registered User
It's Pillow Biter, Chad... mental picture? excellent.
Bioman does indeed have a big heart. Iflora helped my wife out, thanks again.
D, get sappy .. .I like you best when you are sappy.
Bioman does indeed have a big heart. Iflora helped my wife out, thanks again.
D, get sappy .. .I like you best when you are sappy.
Chad
Banned
It's Pillow Biter, Chad... mental picture? excellent.
Bioman does indeed have a big heart. Iflora helped my wife out, thanks again.
D, get sappy .. .I like you best when you are sappy.
ahhhhh yes the pillow "bite". never a fun time. well unless you are Dr.D. i hear he walks around with a pillow at all times in case someone wanks to make him bite it. :toofunny:
djremix
Active member
I rember ergomax was two isomers and pheraplex was 1 right?
does the same recommendation hold true for both isomers?
CryingEmo
Well-known member
You've probably taken so much rez that your heart has atrophied to the size of a golf ball by now. :icon_lol:
CryingEmo
Well-known member
Yeah, the arjuna is great stuff. Very promising cholesterol correction.
Oh man, I was gonna say something real corny and sappy, like you had such a big heart anyway you didn't need the PP, but now I forget so never mind!
It does seem like everyone in the A.A.S. forum has a big heart.
Zero Tolerance
Registered User
Funny.. It's a small world. That's for sure.. The 300s came mostly when I was younger.. Under 10.. So that's probably why I lived.. And boy did those nurses look so concerned. As an adult, I probably saw around 180 and slightly higher.. I got the dizzy feeling as well.. I used to freak out my girlfriend by holding my hand up to glass and having it steam-up instantly. She thought I was the devil. She wound-up marrying me.
I can't believe you 'grew out' of your issue.. The doctor's said I would eventually grow out of it - and I did for a while there.. But it came back twice.. Once in 9th grade, and then when I was 26.. I'm sure getting all the exercise you've had made the difference. I've had major lifestyle changes all my life...
I'm really happy that this topic was posted. I have some PP and Ergo that I probably will not take now... I was seriously considering one for my "next" cycle...
The 300s came mostly when I was younger.. Under 10.. So that's probably why I lived.. And boy did those nurses look so concerned. As an adult, I probably saw around 180 and slightly higher.. I got the dizzy feeling as well.. I used to freak out my girlfriend by holding my hand up to glass and having it steam-up instantly. She thought I was the devil. She wound-up marrying me. I can't believe you 'grew out' of your issue.. The doctor's said I would eventually grow out of it - and I did for a while there.. But it came back twice.. Once in 9th grade, and then when I was 26.. I'm sure getting all the exercise you've had made the difference. I've had major lifestyle changes all my life...
I'm really happy that this topic was posted. I have some PP and Ergo that I probably will not take now... I was seriously considering one for my "next" cycle...
Ddono25
Member
Wow I currently have all of the same exact symptoms as described about the cardio probs with whited-out vision, fatigue, and especially heavy breathing/shortness of breath. Im on day 12 of Phera-bol (PheraPlex clone) and day 14 of 19-nordiol transdermal (planned on 700-800 mgs/daily for 6 weeks). I'm discontinuing the Phera as of now, should I also discontinue the 19-nor? I'd hate to have waited two and half years to use it only to cut it short especially as it feels like it's just kicking in. I obviously will discontinue everything if there seems to be an issue but what would you guys do? Cut out the obvious one (Phera) and continue with the 19-nor as planned or discontinue everything and go straight to post cycle therapy?
DR.D
Well-known member
That's a good question! I would imagine the 3-ene isomer would possess about the same affinity for AR's and that only the intrinsic activity is lower based on the data of relative potencies in this series of desoxy analogs. Therefore, Emax may be ever so slightly favored in this regard or it may not. It may also involve a metabolite and that could make a huge difference, I'm honestly not sure. I would guess that the two products are probably so similar in this regard that the difference is not statistically significant.
DR.D
Well-known member
Hey D, good idea to cut the Phera. I might run a brief trial by continuing the nor for a few more days and see if symptoms subside before aborting the whole cycle, but by all means follow your gut feeling in these matters if you aren't sure. Nandros are not acutely cardio toxic in my experience though, unless you are on a lot of stims or thyroid meds.
celc5
Well-known member
In my first cadavar disection, I was lucky enough to get my hands on a person with cardiomyopathy. The left ventricular walls were REALLY thick, like 1 1/2- 2 inches. The right ventrical was the size of a cantalope and THIN THIN THIN. It's safe to say that cause of death was when the right ventricle, well... exploded! Literally a golf ball diameter hole.
Not to mention that the right ventricle, when stretched out like a baloon, literally left an impression on the right lung causing malformation.
CryingEmo
Well-known member
That just scared the hell out of me.
Now everytime I have a palpitation, I think I have cardiac myopathy.
Then again, I can run 2 miles in under 16 minutes, and 1 minute afterwards my heart rate drops like 40 beats or so. So i'm assuming it's a little healthy.
celc5
Well-known member
Then everything is going to according to plan... everyone, send me your Pheraplex!!! Mwah hah ha hah! :twisted:
CryingEmo
Well-known member
AHHHHH!! :blink:
Ubiquitous
Registered User
Emo, is till don't get how the fvck Steel Cut Irish Oats are too "conservative" for you liking.
Oatmeal is the epitome of conservative.... are you fvkcing kidding me?
Non sequitur, but .... are you fvcking kidding me?
I'm going to find that damn thread and repeat this. :frustrate
phaeton66
Member
I actually thought this must be too good to be true, since I usually chuck the occasional cialis doses in my PCT, but it appears you are correct.
http://medicalarticlesonline.blogspot.com/search/label/Men's%20Health
I also came up with a couple of cases of cialis OD causing things like cerebral hemorrhage -a healthy reminder that, in fact, these things really are powerful drugs:
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I also found this article by Pat Arnold on how the NO release in such drugs can assist hypertrophy (and how it's good for racing dogs):
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-p66
CryingEmo
Well-known member
That is called a heart palpitation and it could be caused by anything, like high blood preassure or even a certain food.
AnonyMoose
Well-known member
which i think we had the conversation before in my case we were thinking stims - however it is more prevalent during cycles. hmmmmmm. . . .
UnrealMachine
Well-known member
day 18 of PP here at 30mg/day and so far so good, very good infact, no heart probs
yeahright
Well-known member
Yeah, well this study is DMT specific but it is something to think about. Might be worth taking a PDE5 inhibitor if one is going to take DMT products.
DR.D
Well-known member
DR.D
Well-known member
DMT is a 2-ene structure, yes. What are you referring to with "1,3,4en" though? That can't be right.
pistonpump
Banned
wow this is an informative thread good job jason. I cant believe i never looked at this yet. Thought it was going to be someone worried about using PP and complaining about irregular heartbeat with PP or something... Ill have to come back later and read it more.
skull
Active member
Ill try to show some examples of what I mean;
Pharmaceutical Name: Trestolone, MENT, 7MENT (as acetate)
Chemical structure: 7-alpha-19Nor-androst-4-en-3-one,17b-ol
Molecular weight of base: 288.429
Molecular weight of ester: 60.0524 (acetic acid, 2 carbons)
DR.D
Well-known member
I understand what you mean skull, you just don't see resonance in the form of 1,3,4! 1,3 or 1,4-enes, yes those are more common. Are you sure you transcribed this properly from your source?
skull
Active member
Yea ,and there should be some ref in vida?
Ninjo
Well-known member
So anyone have an opinion as to when it would be most beneficial to take resveratrol to minimize risk of an enlarged heart: before a PP cycle, during, or after??
I ran PP in January of this year and am thinking of running it again in October (if I decide not to go with SD!
).
I ran PP in January of this year and am thinking of running it again in October (if I decide not to go with SD!
).
yeahright
Well-known member
All three.
bioman
Well-known member
Agreed and I am thinking that the PDE5 inhibitors really do great things for cardio efficiency. In my case, taking Drive daily has upped my cardio eff greatly. I've been out surveying hills at 8000-9000' and hunting all week and I haven't gotten anywhere near as winded as I used to..particularly during or after a PP cycle.
I'm understandably tired but nothing like I used to be...endeavors like that would lay me low for 3-5 days afterwards.
I'm understandably tired but nothing like I used to be...endeavors like that would lay me low for 3-5 days afterwards.
masterdine
New member
what he said
