(3b,5a,6a,25R)-Spirostan-3,6-diol

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TeamSavage said:
(cough cough) placebo effect (cough cough)

PA - When 25R-diol first came out I tried to raise some questions and get the actual studies behind it, but I pretty much hit a brick wall of "Well they'll steal our research so we're releasing nothing." Unfortunately, I didn't have the expertise or resources to dig deeper. Keep the skepticism coming, PA (although the attitude could be dropped).
Click to expand...
:clap2:


savage, i thought we had this settled once the product was released.............you wanted specifics BEFORE the release and AX wasn't willing to give them at that time...........
 
macedaddy said:
there are plenty of people on this board and others that have done logs and cycles and given WAY MORE than "i got jacked off this"..................

there are several VERY experienced anabolic users as well...................
Click to expand...

i agree, the particular friend i am referring too. has also ran superdrol three times phera plex twice and also ran a 20/20 of the both for 4 weeks. before he ever tried hd2 and mfx. i dont see much placebo there.
 
bigschmidt821 said:
my question patrick is why do they work from real world evidence when ppl take them? are you trying to say in all this that it shouldnt work? or that perhaps there is something else in there?
Click to expand...


i don't know anyone who has taken any of this stuff and thought it really did something

so i dunno
 
bigschmidt821 said:
well placebo or not i personally witnessed the gain off of my brother while on this with no change to his diet. 8 pounds with the addition to hyperdrol 2. if that is placebo in your mind fine. i am just trying to figure out what Patrick is getting at in this and asking his oppinion.
Click to expand...


hyperdrol 2 contains 6alpha-bromoandrostandione which, as i postulated in another thread, is likely a prohormone to an anabolic steroid
 
bigschmidt821 said:
i agree, the particular friend i am referring too. has also ran superdrol three times phera plex twice and also ran a 20/20 of the both for 4 weeks. before he ever tried hd2 and mfx. i dont see much placebo there.
Click to expand...


the gains were off the hyperdrol in all likelihood

schmidt, you are not so stupid as to be unable to understand that you cannot make conclusions about the efficacy of one product when it is taken in conjunction with another
 
Patrick Arnold said:
the gains were off the hyperdrol in all likelihood

schmidt, you are not so stupid as to be unable to understand that you cannot make conclusions about the efficacy of one product when it is taken in conjunction with another
Click to expand...

right, then ill throw this one into the equation. to test the efficientcy of mass fx the same friend bought it from my store to take on its own and gained four pounds another friend did the same purchased it from my store and took it and gained 5 pounds. no addition of any other products. two real worlds i personally witnessed. i make it a point not to sell bunk products in my store because i want repeat customers. so this provided me with testamony to give to other customers
 
bigschmidt821 said:
right, then ill throw this one into the equation. to test the efficientcy of mass fx the same friend bought it from my store to take on its own and gained four pounds another friend did the same purchased it from my store and took it and gained 5 pounds. no addition of any other products. two real worlds i personally witnessed. i make it a point not to sell bunk products in my store because i want repeat customers. so this provided me with testamony to give to other customers
Click to expand...

You mean well, but that doesn't mean the product worked or didn't work. I am sure I can give a few peeps some pills and tell them it would make them huge, and they can come back and say, that **** was great, I gained x pounds...

All I know is, AX better make you a rep quick!!!!
 
macedaddy said:
before you start accusing Doctor D of such things, maybe you should figure out who did the write-up..........

don't be so quick to judge, PA!
Click to expand...

The question still stands, and AX *is* selling this compound, no? In my mind, if AX is selling it, they are on the hook to answer this.

In fact, AX literature says:

"All thanks to one of the most hard core and totally legal ingredients ever: 25R-diol™."

And yet, you say MassFX is so much more than just the 25RDiol or whatever TF it is, the only other *real* ingredient is nettle extract, which puts this in the same class as DS Activate or any of the other nettle extracts (JW, etc.).
 
xjsynx said:
You mean well, but that doesn't mean the product worked or didn't work. I am sure I can give a few peeps some pills and tell them it would make them huge, and they can come back and say, that **** was great, I gained x pounds...

All I know is, AX better make you a rep quick!!!!
Click to expand...

i do mean well. all i am saying is that i witnessed this first hand cuz i oversaw the training and the diet. i did not say this will get you huge i said tell me how u feel. i have had these same guys tell me what stuff was bogus. and didnt feel a thing
 
So the spirostenes in BAM don't do ****?

I felt great while on BAM, gained a few pounds while I hit a plateau before. I changed nothing about my diet or training. I had no side-effects at all.

I don't give a **** if it's a placebo effect or not, it worked for me...
 
For people with high levels of reputation points, some of you are starting to act like a bunch of kids - please take the name calling elsewhere... This thread is starting to digress in certain places. however, if that is the direction I'll add my question:

PA question: with all the supplements like Hyperdrol 2, BAM, JW, MassFX etc., (especially after your calling into questions certain ingredients) what would you recommend as a very efficient and effective stack that presents the best gains for the consumer's money. The goal is strength and muscle gain.

Thanks,
 
macedaddy said:
:clap2:


savage, i thought we had this settled once the product was released.............you wanted specifics BEFORE the release and AX wasn't willing to give them at that time...........
Click to expand...

Well, the "specifics" I got weren't very specific at all, the write-up was ambiguous and didn't make much sense in some places, and as I said, I just kept hitting a brick wall when actually trying to obtain details on the supporting research... so I just dropped it.

That said, I have no desire to pick it up again now. :) But it's nice to see that PA has the knowledge to delve deeper than I could.
 
I'd like to see PA test some Bam and Massfx, just curious of the results as it doesn't add up people are getting results when as PA says they shouldn't, i think that would clear up alot of confusion. Same with the Hyperdrol x2
 
it will be the same story as in jungle warfare PA tested

AX/ALR will claim there is no standard for the compound in their products, thus the testing is flawed or whatever

I think the gains off massfx is due to the DVTHF

btw where is ALR on the subject of jungle warfare?
 
Fudge, i loved masfx in pct! That must mean PA is wrong...or I am wrong. Or wtf maybe my training and diet are just that fvucking good....yep thats what im goin with. :good:
 
I am not surprised with this BAM did nothing for me except give me unbearable headaches to the point where I stopped taking it after week 3. My BP was extremely high and subsided within a few days of taking it. Now Idk if this was due to its A/A effects but I sure didn't get any of the other benefits.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
do you think i want to have to do this?
Click to expand...


You're an arrogant mother****ing prick. If you didn't have so much to gain by bashing others, didn't work in the same business, it would be interesting; as it is, you're a two-faced whiner.

My $.02. Good luck.
 
Supplements

mattikus said:
Oy vey. Yet another unknown ingredient. PA is absolutely right in that we consumers have no idea what the hell we are taking. Often all we have to go by is the word of the marketing claims made by these companies and I am tired of all the B.S. 6-bromo, 6alpha-hydroxydiosgenin, ADED, and the list of questionable ingredients goes on and on. THe companies that include these and other ingredients in their products usually offer up zero scientific data and sometimes won't even comment on what their made-up ingredient names actually are. This is B.S. As far as the supplement world goes, PA is one of the few people that actually has a clue and tries to help and educate us consumers. I believe Dr. D also tries to help others, but PA is constantly pointing out many problems that need to be addressed. For this he has my respect and gratitude.
Click to expand...



I totally agree with you about PA. Right on!
 
All this talk is incredible....What I find absolutely hilarious is all of the first hand accounts of people gaining pounds by taking a supplement. You talk as if it is impossible to put on 4 pounds without being on some sort of supp. God forbid if anyone ever made any gains without being on some sort of anabolic, that would be unheard of. Thanks PA for bringing this stuff up, always love a chem talk.
 
Outside Backer said:
damn someone has a disliking for AX this month
Click to expand...

it comes down to the fact that i have alot of people emailing me asking questions about AX products. AX must be very popular these days. Probably because they gained a good reputation by selling designer steroids and now people must be taking their new stuff expecting the same results

i did not know what these products contained. so i looked them up. what i read made my blood boil cuz i see it as total BS

so i started threads
 
raptor2003 said:
it will be the same story as in jungle warfare PA tested

AX/ALR will claim there is no standard for the compound in their products, thus the testing is flawed or whatever

I think the gains off massfx is due to the DVTHF

btw where is ALR on the subject of jungle warfare?
Click to expand...

my opinion on JW is that it is a mild prosteroid.

can be taken for anabolic effects but not suitable for pct
 
poison said:
You're an arrogant mother****ing prick. If you didn't have so much to gain by bashing others, didn't work in the same business, it would be interesting; as it is, you're a two-faced whiner.

My $.02. Good luck.
Click to expand...

don't hold back man
 
My one comment..........

A full university study on Mass FX is about to go underway (through a major university). We just passed through the ethics board and are getting ready for the selection stage.

Good, bad, or ugly we will publish the results. Details of the study will include:

Research would study the biochemical effects ( i.e. includes measuring the changes in Test, Estrogen, Cortisol, and SHBG). In addition, the clinical manifestations (i.e. includes measuring Strength increases and body composition changes) would be also studied and observed. Since there is little information we are going the extra mile to prove its effectiveness. VERY few companies do this.

I really hope over the next year AX proves to be a leader in quality and responsibility in this industry. We have learned many lessons over our two years in existence. One major lesson has been that if we are going to release cutting edge ingredients we need to go the extra mile to demonstrate safety and effectiveness to the best of our ability. If we had an endless supply of cash flow that would be easy. The hard part is balancing positive cash flow and R&D spends. We are in the buisness to make a profit after all. The larger that we grow the more money we are able to put back into product development and research. As a company we are feeling very comfortable with the spends we are making on quality control and research.

We hope they have the results published by the end of summer.
 
BigSmith said:
My one comment..........

A full university study on Mass FX is about to go underway (through a major university). We just passed through the ethics board and are getting ready for the selection stage.

Good, bad, or ugly we will publish the results. Details of the study will include:

Research would study the biochemical effects ( i.e. includes measuring the changes in Test, Estrogen, Cortisol, and SHBG). In addition, the clinical manifestations (i.e. includes measuring Strength increases and body composition changes) would be also studied and observed. Since there is little information we are going the extra mile to prove its effectiveness. VERY few companies do this.

I really hope over the next year AX proves to be a leader in quality and responsibility in this industry. We have learned many lessons over our two years in existence. One major lesson has been that if we are going to release cutting edge ingredients we need to go the extra mile to demonstrate safety and effectiveness to the best of our ability. If we had an endless supply of cash flow that would be easy. The hard part is balancing positive cash flow and R&D spends. We are in the buisness to make a profit after all. The larger that we grow the more many we are able to put back into product development and research. As a company we are feeling very comfortable with the spends we are making on quality control and research.

We hope they have the results published by the end of summer.
Click to expand...


i actually tend to believe you are telling the truth here (i must be drunker than i thought)

however i also believe that you are trusting the advice of a chemist that has greatly misled you.

you may very well be someone who has good intentions but is relying on technical expertry from someone who couldn't give a f*ck
 
Patrick Arnold said:
my opinion on JW is that it is a mild prosteroid.

can be taken for anabolic effects but not suitable for post cycle therapy
Click to expand...

Is this dangerous without PCT? Would you recommend any support or is it mild?
 
BigSmith said:
My one comment..........

A full university study on Mass FX is about to go underway (through a major university). We just passed through the ethics board and are getting ready for the selection stage.

Good, bad, or ugly we will publish the results. Details of the study will include:

Research would study the biochemical effects ( i.e. includes measuring the changes in Test, Estrogen, Cortisol, and SHBG). In addition, the clinical manifestations (i.e. includes measuring Strength increases and body composition changes) would be also studied and observed. Since there is little information we are going the extra mile to prove its effectiveness. VERY few companies do this.

I really hope over the next year AX proves to be a leader in quality and responsibility in this industry. We have learned many lessons over our two years in existence. One major lesson has been that if we are going to release cutting edge ingredients we need to go the extra mile to demonstrate safety and effectiveness to the best of our ability. If we had an endless supply of cash flow that would be easy. The hard part is balancing positive cash flow and R&D spends. We are in the buisness to make a profit after all. The larger that we grow the more money we are able to put back into product development and research. As a company we are feeling very comfortable with the spends we are making on quality control and research.

We hope they have the results published by the end of summer.
Click to expand...

This would be great! I would love for this product to be amazing as any natural supp that can produce great results w/o shutdown would be awesome! Now if only we can wait a few more months w/o some people killing each other, lol.
 
poison said:
You're an arrogant mother****ing prick. If you didn't have so much to gain by bashing others, didn't work in the same business, it would be interesting; as it is, you're a two-faced whiner.

My $.02. Good luck.
Click to expand...

LOL, and I thought this thread had actually been quite civil till now. Actually I thought Pat was doing quite a good job of being civil in all these threads. These threads will do nothing but provide a service to you in my opinion. If we find some good research on a compound questioned than sales should sky rocket and the company producing it will make tons of money and be able to make more good products. If these are found out to be rip offs (I hope not) than at least we know. If we find out nothing than nothing has changed, buy it if you want or don't.
 
Chemist2234 said:
All this talk is incredible....What I find absolutely hilarious is all of the first hand accounts of people gaining pounds by taking a supplement. You talk as if it is impossible to put on 4 pounds without being on some sort of supp. God forbid if anyone ever made any gains without being on some sort of anabolic, that would be unheard of. Thanks PA for bringing this stuff up, always love a chem talk.
Click to expand...

Agreed, buy a supp, expect to make lean mass gains so you eat a little more CLEAN food and you make gains. Hell, maybe even if it is placebo it may be worth the money for some people to have the confidence to eat a little more w/o being scared to death of fat gain.
:burg:
 
jasonschaffin said:
This would be great! I would love for this product to be amazing as any natural supp that can produce great results w/o shutdown would be awesome! Now if only we can wait a few more months w/o some people killing each other, lol.
Click to expand...

Yes we have high hopes for MFX. With a positive results university study it would be a very powerful marketing piece as well. Data is limited, so instead of arguing back and forth.........well you will have the results in a few months. That I promise. If they came back bad (I am confident they wont) we will still put them up. You have my word on that.
 
BigSmith said:
My one comment..........

A full university study on Mass FX is about to go underway (through a major university). We just passed through the ethics board and are getting ready for the selection stage.

Good, bad, or ugly we will publish the results. Details of the study will include:

Research would study the biochemical effects ( i.e. includes measuring the changes in Test, Estrogen, Cortisol, and SHBG). In addition, the clinical manifestations (i.e. includes measuring Strength increases and body composition changes) would be also studied and observed. Since there is little information we are going the extra mile to prove its effectiveness. VERY few companies do this.

I really hope over the next year AX proves to be a leader in quality and responsibility in this industry. We have learned many lessons over our two years in existence. One major lesson has been that if we are going to release cutting edge ingredients we need to go the extra mile to demonstrate safety and effectiveness to the best of our ability. If we had an endless supply of cash flow that would be easy. The hard part is balancing positive cash flow and R&D spends. We are in the buisness to make a profit after all. The larger that we grow the more money we are able to put back into product development and research. As a company we are feeling very comfortable with the spends we are making on quality control and research.

We hope they have the results published by the end of summer.
Click to expand...

:clap2:
 
jasonschaffin said:
LOL, and I thought this thread had actually been quite civil till now. Actually I thought Pat was doing quite a good job of being civil in all these threads. These threads will do nothing but provide a service to you in my opinion. If we find some good research on a compound questioned than sales should sky rocket and the company producing it will make tons of money and be able to make more good products. If these are found out to be rip offs (I hope not) than at least we know. If we find out nothing than nothing has changed, buy it if you want or don't.
Click to expand...

if by some remote lucky roll of the dice this and similar diosgenin derivatives turn out to be ergogenic then it still leaves open the concern that the current marketing is filled with scientific claims for which there are no validations whatsoever

read below and then ask someone from AX to provide substantiation for the longer half life, androgen receptor activation, anabolism, libido enhancement, LH boosting, and 5alpha reductase inhibtion claims.

I could not imagine making these claims and then denying to back them up when someone asks me for proof. To do so would be nothing short of inconsiderate and arrogant

I am 99.9% sure these claims were nothing but fabrications. As a scientist i get very offended when someone treats science like its some lighthearted fictional thing to be played around with for financial gain. To forgive such behavior is to only encourage more of the same

----------

The 6-keto is a primary oxidative metabolite
of 25R-diol™ so 25R-diol™ is a pro-form of 6-keto
with better benefits and a longer active biological half-life.
So how does it work? 25R-diol™ has direct anabolic
effects on androgen receptors however is causes no
endogenous shutdown of testosterone biosynthesis. This is
because 25R-diol™ has minimal intrinsic androgenic
activity at those receptors. It is important to remember that
androgenecy and anabolism are related. Since the
compound has high receptor affinity, it will bind securely
to Androgen Receptors. But because of it’s low intrinsic activity it's not very stimulating
(like deca for example) thus you get a good anabolic but a weak androgen. This is the
key to 25R-diol™. Regardless, although it is a weak androgen, studies have shown that
25R-diol™ is an excellent libido enhancer. This very positive side effect is a result of
enzyme activity which causes smooth muscle relaxation from enhanced nitric oxide
formation. Studies have also shown that 25R-diol™ boosts LH activity slightly and acts
as a mild reductase inhibitor to counter androgenic effects. This is based on the antiandrogenic
effect of a reductase inhibitor on the hypothalamus which in turn signals the
pituitary to start cranking out more LH. This explains why this compound is so clean
with none of the typical androgenic side effects.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
i actually tend to believe you are telling the truth here (i must be drunker than i thought)

however i also believe that you are trusting the advice of a chemist that has greatly misled you.

you may very well be someone who has good intentions but is relying on technical expertry from someone who couldn't give a f*ck
Click to expand...
lets NOT start the character defamation thing again, PA! what is your intent here? to talk about FX and ask for the scientific evidence? or to call, D, out AGAIN for like the 1000th time?:aargh:

D is a very respected member here that spends MORE time than you do, "helping" users! (in his case, I AM SURE that he helps! - however, in yours: hmmmmm..........atleast we know there isn't an agenda, right? OR DO WE?):think:

so tell me, what product will be next in your tyraid?:blink:
 
This thread kicks ass!

My own opinion and formulation on the subject, should anyone care to read is as follows: There are substances that have been employed over time for one reason or another and may have been shown to directly or indirectly exert some kind of anabolic/anti-catabolic effect on human or animal subjects. These such chemicals can be found by anyone who searches enough for them. "Seek and ye shall find." A chemist can analyze the structure of the molecule to determine what enzyme is responsible for activating/de-activating this compound, what receptor this acts upon, what base hormone this new compound represents, etc... If all looks possible, the raw chemical can be ordered and capped and passed out to a variety of weight-lifters....

Take into consideration the facts of the testing group:

1. The subjects are not confined to quarters under supervision. I know for a FACT that most people won't admit that they're taking other supplements. Real recent example: Me: "Hey man, you've got some good size. Are you taking any supplements?" Other person: "Nah, just some protein and a couple herbals." In his cabinet are bottles with a supplement company I've never heard of that stacks about 4 METHYLATED STEROIDS TOGETHER IN ONE FORMULA. I said, "s**t man..." and laughed.

2. Many subjects change their diet and other habits to make sure that they get the 'most for their buck' while taking a supplement.

3. Some subjects diets and habits just aren't consistent as they think or say ... or are different from what they may lead you to believe. I know for me that I gained 8 lbs of water weight from eating a few containers of strawberries when I took 2 hits of weed from my vaporizer. Granted, I ate a lot of strawberries, but I experienced glycogen super-compensation that led to 8 lbs of weight that lingered for a day or two in less than a half hour.

4. Placebo can get to the best of us, especially when we buy into a companies reputation and feed off of other people's logs and start to think that we are feeling what they are feeling. This isn't always true, but sometimes are goals, desires, and expectations manifest themselves psychosomatically.

5. Other compounds in the formula may be causing the results and confounding the test entirely. (ex. remember Myoblast? They threw a little 20-hydroxy-ecdysone and some people actually gained 2-3 lbs in 3 months! lol)

Look.... granted some compounds may do something, there are a lot of variables for one to look at and the consumer should be educated on these. The companies here at AM don't come across as companies that are trying to scam anybody. I think that maybe... MAYBE... the companies such as ALRI and AX release a couple products that they hope will yield the same results as those products banned in the major 'prohormone/prosteroid ban'... But in trying to come up with an alternative, you either become redundant and release yet another prohormone with lesser results... or release something that looks promising, but doesn't really do a damn thing at all. Both these companies have great products, but some of them appear to be flaky to say the least.

For this very reason, I have been using products now that are used in ancient eastern cultural medicine. Even these herbs are argued by some, so... you have to be educated and careful with no matter what you buy.

There's no harm in debating and raising questions on substances, however, there's no need for bashing anyone either. That's my 2 cents worth ;)
 
My guess on the half-life:
They say it is the proform of 6-Keto. Basically you get the half-life of the 6-OH than when that is converted to 6-Keto you get that compounds half-life.
As for androgen receptor activation, anabolism, libido enhancement, LH boosting, and 5alpha reductase inhibtion claims that is why I am glad this thread exist!
 
First, thanks for bringing this to our attention..

Next, I've always wondered about a lot of products these days.. most people increase their protein and caloric intake when taking these products. Because of this I almost feel that they may be correcting areas of their diet where they lacked and then are led to believe that whatever product they are taking is what 'helped' them. Then there will always be the mental(placebo) boost that could also help them punch through a plateau.

Anybody else been thinking this?
 
propho said:
First, thanks for bringing this to our attention..

Next, I've always wondered about a lot of products these days.. most people increase their protein and caloric intake when taking these products. Because of this I almost feel that they may be correcting areas of their diet where they lacked and then are led to believe that whatever product they are taking is what 'helped' them. Then there will always be the mental(placebo) boost that could also help them punch through a plateau.

Anybody else been thinking this?
Click to expand...
Yeah, I think I agree. Our thoughts run on the same path.
 
macedaddy said:
lets NOT start the character defamation thing again, PA! what is your intent here? to talk about FX and ask for the scientific evidence? or to call, D, out AGAIN for like the 1000th time?:aargh:

D is a very respected member here that spends MORE time than you do, "helping" users! (in his case, I AM SURE that he helps! - however, in yours: hmmmmm..........atleast we know there isn't an agenda, right? OR DO WE?):think:

so tell me, what product will be next in your tyraid?:blink:
Click to expand...

always the agenda thing.

you are damn right i have an agenda

and its one i am quite proud of
 
Force of Green said:
This thread kicks ass!

My own opinion and formulation on the subject, should anyone care to read is as follows: There are substances that have been employed over time for one reason or another and may have been shown to directly or indirectly exert some kind of anabolic/anti-catabolic effect on human or animal subjects. These such chemicals can be found by anyone who searches enough for them. "Seek and ye shall find." A chemist can analyze the structure of the molecule to determine what enzyme is responsible for activating/de-activating this compound, what receptor this acts upon, what base hormone this new compound represents, etc... If all looks possible, the raw chemical can be ordered and capped and passed out to a variety of weight-lifters....

Take into consideration the facts of the testing group:

1. The subjects are not confined to quarters under supervision. I know for a FACT that most people won't admit that they're taking other supplements. Real recent example: Me: "Hey man, you've got some good size. Are you taking any supplements?" Other person: "Nah, just some protein and a couple herbals." In his cabinet are bottles with a supplement company I've never heard of that stacks about 4 METHYLATED STEROIDS TOGETHER IN ONE FORMULA. I said, "s**t man..." and laughed.

2. Many subjects change their diet and other habits to make sure that they get the 'most for their buck' while taking a supplement.

3. Some subjects diets and habits just aren't consistent as they think or say ... or are different from what they may lead you to believe. I know for me that I gained 8 lbs of water weight from eating a few containers of strawberries when I took 2 hits of weed from my vaporizer. Granted, I ate a lot of strawberries, but I experienced glycogen super-compensation that led to 8 lbs of weight that lingered for a day or two in less than a half hour.

4. Placebo can get to the best of us, especially when we buy into a companies reputation and feed off of other people's logs and start to think that we are feeling what they are feeling. This isn't always true, but sometimes are goals, desires, and expectations manifest themselves psychosomatically.

5. Other compounds in the formula may be causing the results and confounding the test entirely. (ex. remember Myoblast? They threw a little 20-hydroxy-ecdysone and some people actually gained 2-3 lbs in 3 months! lol)

Look.... granted some compounds may do something, there are a lot of variables for one to look at and the consumer should be educated on these. The companies here at AM don't come across as companies that are trying to scam anybody. I think that maybe... MAYBE... the companies such as ALRI and AX release a couple products that they hope will yield the same results as those products banned in the major 'prohormone/prosteroid ban'... But in trying to come up with an alternative, you either become redundant and release yet another prohormone with lesser results... or release something that looks promising, but doesn't really do a damn thing at all. Both these companies have great products, but some of them appear to be flaky to say the least.

For this very reason, I have been using products now that are used in ancient eastern cultural medicine. Even these herbs are argued by some, so... you have to be educated and careful with no matter what you buy.

There's no harm in debating and raising questions on substances, however, there's no need for bashing anyone either. That's my 2 cents worth ;)
Click to expand...


all very well said

but

what about making specific and bold claims in advertisments that are completely fabricated?
 
jasonschaffin said:
My guess on the half-life:
They say it is the proform of 6-Keto. Basically you get the half-life of the 6-OH than when that is converted to 6-Keto you get that compounds half-life.
Click to expand...

that is not how it works in the body at all

there are constant interconversions between OHs and ketos in the body. its called an equilibrium reaction. the compound doesn't spend a finite amount of time as an OH and then decides to switch to a keto for a while and then decides to die

and besides, what evidence is there that this 6-oxygen is vital to the bioactivity of the compound anyway? WHAT EVIDENCE IS THERE THAT THERE IS ANY BIOACTIVITY OF THIS STUFF AT ALL?

on top of that consider the fact that it is the OHs on a steroid molecule that are conjugated by the liver into inactive and excretable glucuronides and sulfates
 
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