Building Back Up

GreenMachineX said:
Low Incline DB Press 10x75’s, 2 x 6 x 80’s
Machine Shoulder Press 10x170, 8x180, 7x190
Dips 3 x 8
Seated DB Lateral Raise 3 x 12 x 10’s
Skullcrushers 3 x 10/9/8 x 45

Been playing around with my test dose more, and dipping down to 6mg daily for too long results in achiness, worsened sleep, heightened anxiety, and reduced performance/strength and recovery, but significantly less water retention to the point where I actually look good lol. I need to get some slin pins marked at each mg, so I can do exactly 7mg for an extended amount of time.
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Sounds like symptoms of low estrogen.

Everyone knows a drier physique looks more aesthetic. That’s why people lower/crush their estrogen come bodybuilding contest or photo shoot. This is something that only needs to happen for 2, maybe 4 weeks maximum, for a peak event. It is to be very temporary, and leads to injury, lethargy, sexual dysfunction, cardiovascular & neurological damage if sustained.

Every strength or power athlete knows there is great power & durability in higher estrogen and water retention. You need sufficient estrogen! I am not advocating gyno & edema, just keeping from getting dried out.
 
Weight: 222

Deadlift 3 x 3 x 365
Roc-It Mid-Row Machine 8x245, 8x265, 8x285
Machine Shrug 12x180, 10x230, 8x250
Cable Row 2 x 12 x 60
Hammer Curls 3 x 9/9/7 x 30’s
Machine Preacher Curl 2 x 8 x 30

DL suffering, but everything else just fine. Weird.

Sleep has been consistently bad even with 3mg Lunesta for 2 weeks. Waking up and can’t go back to sleep at 3:30am, so I’ve pushed going to bed back to 9ish to hopefully compensate, but every day is PEM again.
 
GreenMachineX said:
Weight: 222

Deadlift 3 x 3 x 365
Roc-It Mid-Row Machine 8x245, 8x265, 8x285
Machine Shrug 12x180, 10x230, 8x250
Cable Row 2 x 12 x 60
Hammer Curls 3 x 9/9/7 x 30’s
Machine Preacher Curl 2 x 8 x 30

DL suffering, but everything else just fine. Weird.

Sleep has been consistently bad even with 3mg Lunesta for 2 weeks. Waking up and can’t go back to sleep at 3:30am, so I’ve pushed going to bed back to 9ish to hopefully compensate, but every day is PEM again.
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Sleep has been suffering - makes total sense your big neurological lift would stutter. That deadlift is a fickle maiden!
 
Weight: 222.2

Seated DB OHP 3 x 11/10/9 x 70’s
Machine Chest Press 3 x 9/8/8 x 190
Seated DB Lateral Raise 3 x 13/12/10 x 10’s (last set drop to 10 x 5’s)
Triceps Pressdowns 15x33, 12x38.5, 10x44
Overhead Extensions 3 x 8 x 27.5
 
Segansational said:
Hope it sorts itself put, feel like you had gotten it under control or at least hadn't had it affect you for a good stretch there.
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Thanks. In attempt to fix it, I’m increasing carbs to 400g per day, fat about 70g, and protein the same roughly with should be about maintenance and test is back to 8mg daily. Just going back to what I know works (plus extra carbs because I’m done the yo-yo cutting thing, time for at least some gains).
 
Stuck awake at 2am after only 4 hours sleep even though I took 3mg lunesta. Eating those 3 bagels on top of my regular meals didn’t work like I thought.

edit: Praise God I fell back asleep for another hour, maybe 1.5.
 
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Yeah, I am with @Hyde here, a lot of the issues you are having could be a result of the low estrogen. Especially the performance dip when you dropped your testosterone dose by 25%, Lower test, and even lower estrogen levels aren't going to bring good performance. If you feel you are holding water at the higher test load then drink more water, enough to start flushing some of the extra out. If you aren't hitting at least a gallon a day on top of other drinks then you probably need to increase your water intake.

As Hyde mentioned we all know that low estrogen dries you out and makes you look better, but it also damn near prevents the ability to make better gains, it slows down fat loss, puts your joints at risk, effects libido and a plethora of other things. If how you look is the factor you are having the most trouble with then I truly think cutting until you can at least see your abs is the way to go. If you are lean the additional water from healthy levels of estrogen is not going to make you look bad. Just a slight difference but if you are just on the edge of lean water can easily be the difference between looking pretty fit, and looking pretty soft. If you are already unsatisfied with how you look then leaning up is the fastest and most drastic change you can make to your physique. Plus once you get lean you will be in a perfect spot to make rebound gains which are always nice.

It looks like you decided to go with putting on some additional weight which works too, just stick with the goal you choose until you hit the goal you set for yourself. If you want to gain mass, set a weight you want to hit and push for it. Stay the course until you get there. Same with the fat loss, if you choose to go with that then stay the course until you get there. The biggest reason for not seeing a lot of progress is that you are not sticking with any one thing long enough to get good traction with it. You are doing all the hard work but swapping the goals so much you can't truly make much headway. If you just apply the same amount of effort that you always do but stay consistent with the goal you will see much better progress.

Okay, I will step off of my soap box, I would just like to see you make some great progress considering I see your consistent effort through all sorts of challenges and just want to see you to realize the fruits of your efforts.
 
Weight: 221.8

Neutral Grip Pull-up 5/4/3/2/1
Safety Bar Squat Top Set 5x255
Cable Row 3 x 8 x 80
Machine Shrug 3 x 10 x 230
Incline DB Curl 3 x 8 x 25’s
Machine Preacher 2 x 8 x 25

thanks for the feedback guys. E2 and test back where it should be on 8mg daily, sleep still pretty bad. Going to keep the calories higher (maybe a little more then maintenance) but very clean calories.
 
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GreenMachineX said:
Low Incline DB Press 10x75’s, 2 x 6 x 80’s
Machine Shoulder Press 10x170, 8x180, 7x190
Dips 3 x 8
Seated DB Lateral Raise 3 x 12 x 10’s
Skullcrushers 3 x 10/9/8 x 45

Been playing around with my test dose more, and dipping down to 6mg daily for too long results in achiness, worsened sleep, heightened anxiety, and reduced performance/strength and recovery, but significantly less water retention to the point where I actually look good lol. I need to get some slin pins marked at each mg, so I can do exactly 7mg for an extended amount of time.
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Low Incline DB Press 3 x 8/8/7 x 80’s
Machine OHP 3 x 8 x 180
Dips 3 x 8/8/9
Seated Lateral Raise 3 x 10/10/9 x 12.5’s (+drop to 8 x 5’s)
Skullcrushers 3 x 11/10/10 x 45

Still feel like trash. Taking 3mg lunesta to ensure I get as much sleep as possible, but I’ve thought before 3mg hurts my gym performance. Unsure what to do exactly.

For now, if I could get the 85’s or 90’s for sets of 8, but the medication causes me to drop to 80’s for the same reps, how much is that likely to matter in the long run?
 
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GreenMachineX said:
Low Incline DB Press 3 x 8/8/7 x 80’s
Machine OHP 3 x 8 x 180
Dips 3 x 8/8/9
Seated Lateral Raise 3 x 10/10/9 x 12.5’s (+drop to 8 x 5’s)
Skullcrushers 3 x 11/10/10 x 45

Still feel like trash. Taking 3mg lunesta to ensure I get as much sleep as possible, but I’ve thought before 3mg hurts my gym performance. Unsure what to do exactly.

For now, if I could get the 85’s or 90’s for sets of 8, but the medication causes me to drop to 80’s for the same reps, how much is that likely to matter in the long run?
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Well even if this is only say an REP7-8 usually on 80's but is feeling like a 9-10 training "under the influence" if you get to where you can go to 85 then 90 over the long run "under the influence" is still going to be an improvement. I think not getting sleep would be worse on you than lifting slightly less weight. Especially if you just gradually work your way up again from there.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Well even if this is only say an REP7-8 usually on 80's but is feeling like a 9-10 training "under the influence" if you get to where you can go to 85 then 90 over the long run "under the influence" is still going to be an improvement. I think not getting sleep would be worse on you than lifting slightly less weight. Especially if you just gradually work your way up again from there.
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Gotcha. That’s what I was thinking. Thanks.
 
MrKleen73 said:
I think not getting sleep would be worse on you than lifting slightly less weight.
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I think you are living walking proof of that. sure calories/gear help but you have been very mindful about your goals and you are seeing fantastic hypertrophic gains with lighter weights while protecting ligaments etc, right?
 
Dustin07 said:
I think you are living walking proof of that. sure calories/gear help but you have been very mindful about your goals and you are seeing fantastic hypertrophic gains with lighter weights while protecting ligaments etc, right?
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Well, it’s not just lighter weights, but if I could get the same weight but 5 more reps…that could be significant I was unsure about.
 
GreenMachineX said:
Well, it’s not just lighter weights, but if I could get the same weight but 5 more reps…that could be significant I was unsure about.
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I'm not 100% sure I follow but I think I do. I had that big 225 x 10 goal which I think helped build hypertrophy and conditioning but had a point of diminishing returns. I think it had some carryover to 1rm, but I'm not sure that doing 13 or 15 at that same weight would, know what I mean? I think from 1rm of 275, to 300, my 225 x 10 never really grew. maybe 225 x 11 or something. but for shear top end strength I found training the heaviest possible singles/doubles I could every week was what built my bench.

of course, thats bb, not db. sorta different beast since nobody really recommends or trains db for 1rm.
 
Dustin07 said:
I'm not 100% sure I follow but I think I do. I had that big 225 x 10 goal which I think helped build hypertrophy and conditioning but had a point of diminishing returns. I think it had some carryover to 1rm, but I'm not sure that doing 13 or 15 at that same weight would, know what I mean? I think from 1rm of 275, to 300, my 225 x 10 never really grew. maybe 225 x 11 or something. but for shear top end strength I found training the heaviest possible singles/doubles I could every week was what built my bench.

of course, thats bb, not db. sorta different beast since nobody really recommends or trains db for 1rm.
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I meant…if I take 3mg lunesta, I can get let’s say 8 reps with 80’s, but if I take 1.5mg lunesta I can get 12 reps with the 80’s.
 
Muscles don’t know weight, only effort. So if you are training at a sufficient effort to stimulate adaptation, like Kleen said you should still see progress in performance metrics and therefore size over time. The absolute size and numbers will take longer to achieve with the initial decrease in your capabilities, but progress should theoretically come at the same rate.
 
Update: slept really well, no PEM. Could’ve used a little more, but feel good today. The only difference in diet was no veggies or fruit at all. Eggs, chicken, rice, naan and a bagel. So weird.
 
GreenMachineX said:
Weight: 222

Deadlift 3 x 3 x 365
Roc-It Mid-Row Machine 8x245, 8x265, 8x285
Machine Shrug 12x180, 10x230, 8x250
Cable Row 2 x 12 x 60
Hammer Curls 3 x 9/9/7 x 30’s
Machine Preacher Curl 2 x 8 x 30

DL suffering, but everything else just fine. Weird.

Sleep has been consistently bad even with 3mg Lunesta for 2 weeks. Waking up and can’t go back to sleep at 3:30am, so I’ve pushed going to bed back to 9ish to hopefully compensate, but every day is PEM again.
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Deadlift 4 (or 5 sets) x 3 x 365
Back Extensions (varied angles) 3, 5
Mid-Row Machine 10x245, 8x265, 8x285, 6x305
Machine Shrug 3 x 8/8/8 x 250
Hammer Curls 3 x 9/8/8 x 30’s
Machine Preacher Curls 2 x 9 x 30
Facepulls 2 x 12/10 x 16.5

Felt a lot better today and could definitely tell in my DL. Unsure if I did 4 or 5 sets though, but leaning towards 5. Shrug performance is moving up faster than anything oddly enough.
 
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Nice session man!
 
GreenMachineX said:
Weight: 222.2
Inches
Seated DB OHP 3 x 11/10/9 x 70’s
Machine Chest Press 3 x 9/8/8 x 190
Seated DB Lateral Raise 3 x 13/12/10 x 10’s (last set drop to 10 x 5’s)
Triceps Pressdowns 15x33, 12x38.5, 10x44
Overhead Extensions 3 x 8 x 27.5
Click to expand...
Weight: 223.2

Seated DB Press 3 x 11/11/10 x 70’s
Machine Chest Press 3 x 8/8/9 x 200
Seated DB Lateral Raise 3 x 11/10/9 x 12.5’s
Triceps Pressdown 15x38.5, 10x44, 9x49.5

Improvements in OHP and chest press. Gonna keep eating at a mild surplus for a while longer.
 
GreenMachineX said:
Weight: 221.8

Neutral Grip Pull-up 5/4/3/2/1
Safety Bar Squat Top Set 5x255
Cable Row 3 x 8 x 80
Machine Shrug 3 x 10 x 230
Incline DB Curl 3 x 8 x 25’s
Machine Preacher 2 x 8 x 25

thanks for the feedback guys. E2 and test back where it should be on 8mg daily, sleep still pretty bad. Going to keep the calories higher (maybe a little more then maintenance) but very clean calories.
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Safety Bar Squat 5x255, 2 x 3 x 275
NG Pull-up 4 x 4
Machine Shrugs 10x250, 2 x 8 x 270
Reverse Pec Deck 3 x 11 x 30
Incline DB Curls 3 x 10/10/7 x 25’s
Machine Preacher 2 x 10 x 30
Single Leg Curls 2 x 10 x 45
 
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Sleep has finally been consistently better…eating 4k kcal per day lol. Still using 7mg test cyp per day. I’ll do labs mid May to ensure good levels.

Might drop to 1.5mg lunesta tonight.
 
GreenMachineX said:
Low Incline DB Press 3 x 8/8/7 x 80’s
Machine OHP 3 x 8 x 180
Dips 3 x 8/8/9
Seated Lateral Raise 3 x 10/10/9 x 12.5’s (+drop to 8 x 5’s)
Skullcrushers 3 x 11/10/10 x 45

Still feel like trash. Taking 3mg lunesta to ensure I get as much sleep as possible, but I’ve thought before 3mg hurts my gym performance. Unsure what to do exactly.

For now, if I could get the 85’s or 90’s for sets of 8, but the medication causes me to drop to 80’s for the same reps, how much is that likely to matter in the long run?
Click to expand...
Low Incline DB Press 3 x 8/8/9 x 80’s
Machine OHP 3 x 8 x 190
Dips 8/8/9
Seated DB Lateral Raise 3 x 12/12/15 x 10’s
Skullcrushers 3 x 8/7/6 x 60

Small improvements again.
 
Segansational said:
This is actually really interesting as my wife just mentioned she thinks I should get a sleep study for apnea. And, I'm in a similar scenario where I've been slowly bulking and have hit that (for me) almost 175ish threshold where I'm questioning the level of fat gain relative to lean mass/performance benefit balance.
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yeah for me it seems to be 200lbs is the threshold. I've been hanging around 192 for the past 6-8 weeks and haven't had any sleep apnea or snoring that I know of.

MrKleen73 said:
Yeah, I am with @Hyde here, a lot of the issues you are having could be a result of the low estrogen. Especially the performance dip when you dropped your testosterone dose by 25%, Lower test, and even lower estrogen levels aren't going to bring good performance.
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would it effect sleep too? obviously it appears dermacrine spikes e for me, but when I had that dermacrine run I was sleeping like a new born puppy or a teenager going through massive growth (and I was. I gained weight, PR'd everything, and was always ready for a long hard sleep)
 
GreenMachineX said:
Deadlift 4 (or 5 sets) x 3 x 365
Back Extensions (varied angles) 3, 5
Mid-Row Machine 10x245, 8x265, 8x285, 6x305
Machine Shrug 3 x 8/8/8 x 250
Hammer Curls 3 x 9/8/8 x 30’s
Machine Preacher Curls 2 x 9 x 30
Facepulls 2 x 12/10 x 16.5

Felt a lot better today and could definitely tell in my DL. Unsure if I did 4 or 5 sets though, but leaning towards 5. Shrug performance is moving up faster than anything oddly enough.
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Deadlift Top Set 5 x 385 PR
Mid-Row Machine 8x265, 8x285, 8x305
Machine Shrug 3 x 8 x 270
Hammer Curls 3 x 10/10/8 x 30’s
Cable Mid-Row 6x88, 8 x 70
Machine Preacher 2 x 9 x 40
 
GreenMachineX said:
Weight: 222.2

Seated DB OHP 3 x 11/10/9 x 70’s
Machine Chest Press 3 x 9/8/8 x 190
Seated DB Lateral Raise 3 x 13/12/10 x 10’s (last set drop to 10 x 5’s)
Triceps Pressdowns 15x33, 12x38.5, 10x44
Overhead Extensions 3 x 8 x 27.5
Click to expand...
Seated DB Press 3 x 12/11/11 x 70’s
Machine Chest Press 3 x 8 x 200
Seated Machine OHP Rest Pause 8/2/1 x 190
Seated DB Lateral Raise 3 x 13/14/13 x 10’s
Triceps Pressdown 3 x 11/11/10 x 44
Overhead Extension 3 x 8 x 27

Adding a rest/pause machine OHP set to this workout. Probably used too much since I couldn’t get a full 18 reps.
 
Dustin07 said:
yeah for me it seems to be 200lbs is the threshold. I've been hanging around 192 for the past 6-8 weeks and haven't had any sleep apnea or snoring that I know of.



would it effect sleep too? obviously it appears dermacrine spikes e for me, but when I had that dermacrine run I was sleeping like a new born puppy or a teenager going through massive growth (and I was. I gained weight, PR'd everything, and was always ready for a long hard sleep)
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Yes low estrogen can definitely affect sleep, both quality and ability to fall asleep.
GreenMachineX said:
Only on that 😂
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Yes but that is a big thing to have going up! Congrats!
 
GreenMachineX said:
Safety Bar Squat 5x255, 2 x 3 x 275
NG Pull-up 4 x 4
Machine Shrugs 10x250, 2 x 8 x 270
Reverse Pec Deck 3 x 11 x 30
Incline DB Curls 3 x 10/10/7 x 25’s
Machine Preacher 2 x 10 x 30
Single Leg Curls 2 x 10 x 45
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Regular Back Squat 5x315 Recent PR
Leg Press 2 x 12 x 215
NG Pull-ups 4 x 4
Cable Shrugs 3 x 9 x 100
Incline DB Curl 3 x 8/6/6 x 27.5’s
Machine Preacher 2 x 10 x 30
Reverse Pec Deck 3 x 12 x 30
 
Congrats on the recent PR, it's always nice when you reclaim a weight that has been eluding you!
 
GreenMachineX said:
Low Incline DB Press 3 x 8/8/9 x 80’s
Machine OHP 3 x 8 x 190
Dips 8/8/9
Seated DB Lateral Raise 3 x 12/12/15 x 10’s
Skullcrushers 3 x 8/7/6 x 60

Small improvements again.
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Low Incline DB Press 10x75’s, 8x85’s, 2x6x95’s
Machine OHP 3 x 8/8/9 x 190
Dips 8/9/9
Seated SB Lateral Raise 3 x 12/12/10 x 12.5’s
Skullcrushers 3 x 12/10/8 x 45

Small gains from last week.
 
GreenMachineX said:
I’d like to see you give it a shot…you got me beat on everything else lol
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no way man, you are a better squatter than me. I have only squatted like 365 in my life and I'm pretty sure 315 x 5 is a reps PR for me. I will try to throw in some db presses this week though and see how it goes, I'd like to build the shoulders more and usually end up stuck with my normal laterals and forward raises in a time pinch!

Your deads are probably higher than mine right now too. I was going to squat today but forgot my sleeves so I'll probably have my first "belted" pull day in a few weeks today and I don't see myself hitting 385 x 5... we'll see!

I was really hoping to go semi light and start ramping up lol
 
Dustin07 said:
no way man, you are a better squatter than me. I have only squatted like 365 in my life and I'm pretty sure 315 x 5 is a reps PR for me. I will try to throw in some db presses this week though and see how it goes, I'd like to build the shoulders more and usually end up stuck with my normal laterals and forward raises in a time pinch!

Your deads are probably higher than mine right now too. I was going to squat today but forgot my sleeves so I'll probably have my first "belted" pull day in a few weeks today and I don't see myself hitting 385 x 5... we'll see!

I was really hoping to go semi light and start ramping up lol
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Never go light! lol
Curious to see how you do!
 
GreenMachineX said:
Deadlift Top Set 5 x 385 PR
Mid-Row Machine 8x265, 8x285, 8x305
Machine Shrug 3 x 8 x 270
Hammer Curls 3 x 10/10/8 x 30’s
Cable Mid-Row 6x88, 8 x 70
Machine Preacher 2 x 9 x 40
Click to expand...
Deadlift Top Set 4 x 405 PR
Single Leg Hamstring Curls 2 x 8 x 45
Cable Mid Row 12x61.8, 12x70.4, 12x79.2, 8x88
Mid-Row Machine 8x285, 5x305, 4x325
Machine Shrugs 3 x something x something
Hammer Curls 3 x 10/8/9 x 30’s
Machine Preacher 2 x 6 x 45

Another rep PR for DL. I think I could’ve got 5 but it would’ve really been a grinder. The answer is 6k calories per day 😂
 
GreenMachineX said:
Deadlift Top Set 4 x 405 PR
Single Leg Hamstring Curls 2 x 8 x 45
Cable Mid Row 12x61.8, 12x70.4, 12x79.2, 8x88
Mid-Row Machine 8x285, 5x305, 4x325
Machine Shrugs 3 x something x something
Hammer Curls 3 x 10/8/9 x 30’s
Machine Preacher 2 x 6 x 45

Another rep PR for DL. I think I could’ve got 5 but it would’ve really been a grinder. The answer is 6k calories per day
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That is not a sustainable answer Congrats on the post-Easter PR!
 
I mean yeah LOL. I hit 3 PRS last year:

Bench 300 clean
Deadlift 485
Weight 207 (+22lbs)

so certainly seems you're on to something 😅
 
Hyde said:
That is not a sustainable answer Congrats on the post-Easter PR!
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Amen, 6000 sounds like an amazing one off fun filled day of eating. It sounds absolutely horrendous to try to maintain.

Congrats on that PR @GreenMachineX very nice work!
 
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