Building Back Up
- Thread starter GreenMachineX
- Start date
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Thanks gents.
Weight: 216.0
2 pounds to go in 3 days…
Weight: 216.0
2 pounds to go in 3 days…
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Yesterday WO: Upper Push, nothing worth noting.
Today’s WO:
Squats 4 x 5/5/5/3 x 275
NG Pull-ups 7, 5, 5, 5
Cable Shrug/Row
Back Extensions
Incline DB Curl
Today’s WO:
Squats 4 x 5/5/5/3 x 275
NG Pull-ups 7, 5, 5, 5
Cable Shrug/Row
Back Extensions
Incline DB Curl
Dustin07
Legend
on like day 4 in Mexico with a very unusual daily nutrition routine and the reintroduction of tequila I had some reflux but coincidentally they had given us some yogurts and fruit with coffee for breakfast one morning and my wife left the yogurt in the fridge... I remembered what you had said so I pounded it and magically no more acid reflux. might be coincidence but it's a hack I'm going to keep in mind.
Hope you're having a great vacation homie! I was thinking about you a lot the last week. Thursday my wife and I basically stayed up all night because we had to meet our friends at 2am to drive to the airport for a 5am flight. 1 night stay in cancun, then ferry ride the next morning to the island we would spend a week at. My sleep was shitty and I felt the slight onset of panic attacks I haven't felt since like 2017 ish.
on vacation, slept like a BABY and by day 2 felt far healthier than I feel at home.
fast foward to our last day, a friday, and I did not sleep AT ALL. even got up at 2am and paced a bit, went outside on the patio to try to calm my nerves, became super aware of my breathing (baby panic attack) and had to calm myself for like the next 12hrs. Got home again (finally) Saturday and all those issues faded away. Then last night, slept a little poorly because I wanted to make sure I was up around 4am to get to work very early and kick start this week hard.
long story short, I was responsible for getting 4 adults through parking, shuttle, airport, 2nd airport, international travel, pre-arranged car in Mx to new hotel, then walk to ferry, cross ferry, arrive at new hotel (then do it all again in reverse). 2 of them have never been to mexico, one of them was scared to death of going, and the 3rd was very comfortable, but wasn't really the logistics planner (my wife) so I think I had built a ton of stress for myself on their wellbeing. I just found that my poor sleep and the reintroduction of these minor "panic" type moments were tied into daily life style stress stuff and it made me think of you. maybe you and I both need to just chill more lol.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Other than the stress of it all, good vacation?
Ours is going great; a little longer lines than we expected at Universal, but still having fun. Sleeping great still. 6k kcal per day and I sleep and feel great! lol
But yes, likely need to just chill out more.
MrKleen73
Legend
Yes, you both need to chill a little. You put yourself through a lot of unneeded stress. If you went with a group of 4 adults there were 4 adults responsible for getting themselves places. You just took it on as your sole responsibility. "WUSSAI!!!!"
Yep Yep Yep! Funny stat, and honestly not sure it is correct, but it is correct enough to get the point across. We all worry too much about crap. Like 90 percent of what we worry about is never going to happen, and the other 10% is going to happen whether we worry about it, or not. So why worry, or stress so much, if it doesn't make a difference other than screwing up our own experience.
Dustin07
Legend
oh dude, so awesome. so so awesome.
and you know it didn't "feel" stressy at all! I felt great, I was super excited to be going, to be there, etc. but I just figured subconsciously I had a lot of logistics, ferry times/tickets, shuttles, airports, planes etc on my mind and we had booked the trip in May of 2023 so after all that build up, if we missed a flight or something it was gonna SUCK
ahaha it's true, but these folks in particular I sorta take under my wing unnecessarily despite them being 10 years older than me. My wife and I just have travelled so much more than them that I often feel the need to sorta create comfort for them for some reason, IDK.
and then there's my wife, wandering aimless through Guadalajara with me where nobody speaks English, she speaks zero Spanish and she's happy as a clam assuming that communication is probably doing fine (?) LOL!
MrKleen73
Legend
Nothing wrong with being a good host unless it also keep you from being able to enjoy the party yourself.oh dude, so awesome. so so awesome.
and you know it didn't "feel" stressy at all! I felt great, I was super excited to be going, to be there, etc. but I just figured subconsciously I had a lot of logistics, ferry times/tickets, shuttles, airports, planes etc on my mind and we had booked the trip in May of 2023 so after all that build up, if we missed a flight or something it was gonna SUCK
ahaha it's true, but these folks in particular I sorta take under my wing unnecessarily despite them being 10 years older than me. My wife and I just have travelled so much more than them that I often feel the need to sorta create comfort for them for some reason, IDK.
and then there's my wife, wandering aimless through Guadalajara with me where nobody speaks English, she speaks zero Spanish and she's happy as a clam assuming that communication is probably doing fine (?) LOL!
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Weight: 224
Been a few days since we got back from vacation which was great. Got 2 pretty easy upper body workouts in, 20-25k steps per day, but ate a lot.
I’m at a crossroads once again. Looking back over the year, I’m barely stronger and barely leaner then I was 1 year ago, if leaner at all. Unsure whether to attempt cutting again, or just lean bulk.
I also have some observations with my daily testosterone dosage. I’m not posting them yet, but there’s a significant difference in water retention on 6mg daily vs 8mg daily. Being that 5mg daily had my e2 at 15, and 8mg daily had it only at 33, I wonder if the water bloat is actually from sensitivity to higher free test since 8mg puts me right over the top of range. Or, I guess it could be just too high e2 for me personally. If it was just simply water retention everywhere, I’d be fine with it, but it’s very much so accumulating in the worst areas possible (chest and hips) which leads me to believe my body doesn’t like estradiol. Maybe I need to give Inhibit-E a try on the higher dose of test?
Been a few days since we got back from vacation which was great. Got 2 pretty easy upper body workouts in, 20-25k steps per day, but ate a lot.
I’m at a crossroads once again. Looking back over the year, I’m barely stronger and barely leaner then I was 1 year ago, if leaner at all. Unsure whether to attempt cutting again, or just lean bulk.
I also have some observations with my daily testosterone dosage. I’m not posting them yet, but there’s a significant difference in water retention on 6mg daily vs 8mg daily. Being that 5mg daily had my e2 at 15, and 8mg daily had it only at 33, I wonder if the water bloat is actually from sensitivity to higher free test since 8mg puts me right over the top of range. Or, I guess it could be just too high e2 for me personally. If it was just simply water retention everywhere, I’d be fine with it, but it’s very much so accumulating in the worst areas possible (chest and hips) which leads me to believe my body doesn’t like estradiol. Maybe I need to give Inhibit-E a try on the higher dose of test?
Hyde
Legend
I always take DIM daily, plus zinc and grape seed extract. The DIM is the big one for helping your body clear more estrogen easier.
From a performance perspective, you generally want to take as much testosterone as you can tolerate well. So using a product like Inhibit E does make sense in that context, if it lets you tolerate a higher dose.
You do also need to be realistic about what you can accomplish on your modest doses. You specifically may be on TRT, but this is definitely not giving you a hotrodded environment, the way you use it - you can’t get away with the things a more enhanced lifter can. And things will be less dramatic. That’s not a push for more drugs - it’s trying to frame the expectations for more satisfaction from your journey.
If you want to get leaner, you probably need a bit more consistency in your discipline. If you want to get stronger faster, you may have to push a bit harder - and if you feel those don’t have much room for practical improvement, then this is probably the pace you can expect.
From a performance perspective, you generally want to take as much testosterone as you can tolerate well. So using a product like Inhibit E does make sense in that context, if it lets you tolerate a higher dose.
You do also need to be realistic about what you can accomplish on your modest doses. You specifically may be on TRT, but this is definitely not giving you a hotrodded environment, the way you use it - you can’t get away with the things a more enhanced lifter can. And things will be less dramatic. That’s not a push for more drugs - it’s trying to frame the expectations for more satisfaction from your journey.
If you want to get leaner, you probably need a bit more consistency in your discipline. If you want to get stronger faster, you may have to push a bit harder - and if you feel those don’t have much room for practical improvement, then this is probably the pace you can expect.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
What brand and dose of DIM? I’ll have to look up to ensure it doesn’t interact with lunesta.
MrKleen73
Legend
Also, something to consider, 15 is pretty low on estrogen, so it might not be that you are retaining water at 33 so much as holding a normal amount but are slightly dehydrated, or dryer than usual at 15. How do you feel overall on 8 per day compared to 6? If you feel better on 8 but are just holding a little water, well, it is just water. You aren't lean enough right now to obsess over water unless you just aren't getting enough. That is just my personal opinion of course. Also not pushing for more test here, just saying you might be focusing on the wrong factors. How is BP and the like doing with the 8mg daily compared to 6?
Hyde
Legend
Yeah at 600 I felt pretty great at 60-80. That is too high for majority of guys, but at 15 I would barely be able to even bend my knees, let alone load my joints. That is getting Sahara dry for me.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
It’s not just a little water though lol. We’re talking several extra inches on the waist.
7-8mg daily feels better then 6mg in most ways, but my libido is better on 6-7mg then 8mg. Joints are achy though. BP is good on 7-8mg daily, but pretty sure it’s good on all doses.
i decided I will cut.
Dustin07
Legend
I feel like this is the question that 90% of us struggle with 90% of the time.
I love caloric surpluses and lifting PRs until my clothes don't fit, my sleep starts to suffer, I'm winded easier, and my belly starts to breach the belt line.
I love cutting and getting all beached up until my lifts drop 15% and my old 5 rep sets turn into singles...
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Your sleep suffers when bulking???
Dustin07
Legend
2023 was the first time in like 10 years that I was over 200lbs and I stayed there for around 4-6 months, peaking at 207. all the sudden I became a snorer, and out of nowhere, repeat bouts of sleep apnea. these are both highly unusual for me. When I cut in January from 202 to 186 (190 today) both disappeared. I asked my wife about it and she said the same thing. she said I was snoring on the massage table in Guadalajara lol, and she hasn't noticed it since I cut 10+lbs.
could be coincidence but yeah that is a health thing that seems to be related for me.
Hyde
Legend
This is one of the biggest health impacts from gaining weight; I’m surprised you were not aware of this.
The neck gets thicker and heavier, from fat or muscle, then when the neck muscles relax once you fall into deep sleep the extra bulk weighs down and limits your airways, which interferes with REM sleep. And because the body enters a hypoxic environment for extended periods, blood gets a lot thicker.
You can donate all you want, but if sleep quality is going down due to increased bodyweight it will continue to return to the thicker levels because it believes it needs this adaptation to survive. This is why most male athletes, strongmen, powerlifters, bodybuilders eventually get CPAPs. Even if lean, if the neck grows sleep quality worsens.
If you got leaner, you could probably tolerate a higher dose of testosterone eventually for similar hematocrit impact.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Low Incline DB Press 10x75’s, 2 x 6 x 80’s
Machine Shoulder Press 10x170, 8x180, 7x190
Dips 3 x 8
Seated DB Lateral Raise 3 x 12 x 10’s
Skullcrushers 3 x 10/9/8 x 45
Been playing around with my test dose more, and dipping down to 6mg daily for too long results in achiness, worsened sleep, heightened anxiety, and reduced performance/strength and recovery, but significantly less water retention to the point where I actually look good lol. I need to get some slin pins marked at each mg, so I can do exactly 7mg for an extended amount of time.
Machine Shoulder Press 10x170, 8x180, 7x190
Dips 3 x 8
Seated DB Lateral Raise 3 x 12 x 10’s
Skullcrushers 3 x 10/9/8 x 45
Been playing around with my test dose more, and dipping down to 6mg daily for too long results in achiness, worsened sleep, heightened anxiety, and reduced performance/strength and recovery, but significantly less water retention to the point where I actually look good lol. I need to get some slin pins marked at each mg, so I can do exactly 7mg for an extended amount of time.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
As an update, the intention with that workout and the rest of this week was to reduce volume and intensity a little, to reset, not a reload. Still 3RIR on most everything. Unsure why the incline press performance suffered so bad though as I anticipated being able to do 3 sets of at least 10 with 75’s and 80’s.
Segansational
Well-known member
This is actually really interesting as my wife just mentioned she thinks I should get a sleep study for apnea. And, I'm in a similar scenario where I've been slowly bulking and have hit that (for me) almost 175ish threshold where I'm questioning the level of fat gain relative to lean mass/performance benefit balance.
Hyde
Legend
Sounds like symptoms of low estrogen.
Everyone knows a drier physique looks more aesthetic. That’s why people lower/crush their estrogen come bodybuilding contest or photo shoot. This is something that only needs to happen for 2, maybe 4 weeks maximum, for a peak event. It is to be very temporary, and leads to injury, lethargy, sexual dysfunction, cardiovascular & neurological damage if sustained.
Every strength or power athlete knows there is great power & durability in higher estrogen and water retention. You need sufficient estrogen! I am not advocating gyno & edema, just keeping from getting dried out.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Weight: 222
Deadlift 3 x 3 x 365
Roc-It Mid-Row Machine 8x245, 8x265, 8x285
Machine Shrug 12x180, 10x230, 8x250
Cable Row 2 x 12 x 60
Hammer Curls 3 x 9/9/7 x 30’s
Machine Preacher Curl 2 x 8 x 30
DL suffering, but everything else just fine. Weird.
Sleep has been consistently bad even with 3mg Lunesta for 2 weeks. Waking up and can’t go back to sleep at 3:30am, so I’ve pushed going to bed back to 9ish to hopefully compensate, but every day is PEM again.
Deadlift 3 x 3 x 365
Roc-It Mid-Row Machine 8x245, 8x265, 8x285
Machine Shrug 12x180, 10x230, 8x250
Cable Row 2 x 12 x 60
Hammer Curls 3 x 9/9/7 x 30’s
Machine Preacher Curl 2 x 8 x 30
DL suffering, but everything else just fine. Weird.
Sleep has been consistently bad even with 3mg Lunesta for 2 weeks. Waking up and can’t go back to sleep at 3:30am, so I’ve pushed going to bed back to 9ish to hopefully compensate, but every day is PEM again.
Hyde
Legend
Sleep has been suffering - makes total sense your big neurological lift would stutter. That deadlift is a fickle maiden!
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Good point. Wish I could figure this out. Back in PEM today. Annoying.
Segansational
Well-known member
Hope it sorts itself put, feel like you had gotten it under control or at least hadn't had it affect you for a good stretch there.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Weight: 222.2
Seated DB OHP 3 x 11/10/9 x 70’s
Machine Chest Press 3 x 9/8/8 x 190
Seated DB Lateral Raise 3 x 13/12/10 x 10’s (last set drop to 10 x 5’s)
Triceps Pressdowns 15x33, 12x38.5, 10x44
Overhead Extensions 3 x 8 x 27.5
Seated DB OHP 3 x 11/10/9 x 70’s
Machine Chest Press 3 x 9/8/8 x 190
Seated DB Lateral Raise 3 x 13/12/10 x 10’s (last set drop to 10 x 5’s)
Triceps Pressdowns 15x33, 12x38.5, 10x44
Overhead Extensions 3 x 8 x 27.5
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Thanks. In attempt to fix it, I’m increasing carbs to 400g per day, fat about 70g, and protein the same roughly with should be about maintenance and test is back to 8mg daily. Just going back to what I know works (plus extra carbs because I’m done the yo-yo cutting thing, time for at least some gains).
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Stuck awake at 2am after only 4 hours sleep even though I took 3mg lunesta. Eating those 3 bagels on top of my regular meals didn’t work like I thought.
edit: Praise God I fell back asleep for another hour, maybe 1.5.
edit: Praise God I fell back asleep for another hour, maybe 1.5.
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MrKleen73
Legend
Yeah, I am with @Hyde here, a lot of the issues you are having could be a result of the low estrogen. Especially the performance dip when you dropped your testosterone dose by 25%, Lower test, and even lower estrogen levels aren't going to bring good performance. If you feel you are holding water at the higher test load then drink more water, enough to start flushing some of the extra out. If you aren't hitting at least a gallon a day on top of other drinks then you probably need to increase your water intake.
As Hyde mentioned we all know that low estrogen dries you out and makes you look better, but it also damn near prevents the ability to make better gains, it slows down fat loss, puts your joints at risk, effects libido and a plethora of other things. If how you look is the factor you are having the most trouble with then I truly think cutting until you can at least see your abs is the way to go. If you are lean the additional water from healthy levels of estrogen is not going to make you look bad. Just a slight difference but if you are just on the edge of lean water can easily be the difference between looking pretty fit, and looking pretty soft. If you are already unsatisfied with how you look then leaning up is the fastest and most drastic change you can make to your physique. Plus once you get lean you will be in a perfect spot to make rebound gains which are always nice.
It looks like you decided to go with putting on some additional weight which works too, just stick with the goal you choose until you hit the goal you set for yourself. If you want to gain mass, set a weight you want to hit and push for it. Stay the course until you get there. Same with the fat loss, if you choose to go with that then stay the course until you get there. The biggest reason for not seeing a lot of progress is that you are not sticking with any one thing long enough to get good traction with it. You are doing all the hard work but swapping the goals so much you can't truly make much headway. If you just apply the same amount of effort that you always do but stay consistent with the goal you will see much better progress.
Okay, I will step off of my soap box, I would just like to see you make some great progress considering I see your consistent effort through all sorts of challenges and just want to see you to realize the fruits of your efforts.
As Hyde mentioned we all know that low estrogen dries you out and makes you look better, but it also damn near prevents the ability to make better gains, it slows down fat loss, puts your joints at risk, effects libido and a plethora of other things. If how you look is the factor you are having the most trouble with then I truly think cutting until you can at least see your abs is the way to go. If you are lean the additional water from healthy levels of estrogen is not going to make you look bad. Just a slight difference but if you are just on the edge of lean water can easily be the difference between looking pretty fit, and looking pretty soft. If you are already unsatisfied with how you look then leaning up is the fastest and most drastic change you can make to your physique. Plus once you get lean you will be in a perfect spot to make rebound gains which are always nice.
It looks like you decided to go with putting on some additional weight which works too, just stick with the goal you choose until you hit the goal you set for yourself. If you want to gain mass, set a weight you want to hit and push for it. Stay the course until you get there. Same with the fat loss, if you choose to go with that then stay the course until you get there. The biggest reason for not seeing a lot of progress is that you are not sticking with any one thing long enough to get good traction with it. You are doing all the hard work but swapping the goals so much you can't truly make much headway. If you just apply the same amount of effort that you always do but stay consistent with the goal you will see much better progress.
Okay, I will step off of my soap box, I would just like to see you make some great progress considering I see your consistent effort through all sorts of challenges and just want to see you to realize the fruits of your efforts.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Weight: 221.8
Neutral Grip Pull-up 5/4/3/2/1
Safety Bar Squat Top Set 5x255
Cable Row 3 x 8 x 80
Machine Shrug 3 x 10 x 230
Incline DB Curl 3 x 8 x 25’s
Machine Preacher 2 x 8 x 25
thanks for the feedback guys. E2 and test back where it should be on 8mg daily, sleep still pretty bad. Going to keep the calories higher (maybe a little more then maintenance) but very clean calories.
Neutral Grip Pull-up 5/4/3/2/1
Safety Bar Squat Top Set 5x255
Cable Row 3 x 8 x 80
Machine Shrug 3 x 10 x 230
Incline DB Curl 3 x 8 x 25’s
Machine Preacher 2 x 8 x 25
thanks for the feedback guys. E2 and test back where it should be on 8mg daily, sleep still pretty bad. Going to keep the calories higher (maybe a little more then maintenance) but very clean calories.
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GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Low Incline DB Press 3 x 8/8/7 x 80’s
Machine OHP 3 x 8 x 180
Dips 3 x 8/8/9
Seated Lateral Raise 3 x 10/10/9 x 12.5’s (+drop to 8 x 5’s)
Skullcrushers 3 x 11/10/10 x 45
Still feel like trash. Taking 3mg lunesta to ensure I get as much sleep as possible, but I’ve thought before 3mg hurts my gym performance. Unsure what to do exactly.
For now, if I could get the 85’s or 90’s for sets of 8, but the medication causes me to drop to 80’s for the same reps, how much is that likely to matter in the long run?
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MrKleen73
Legend
Well even if this is only say an REP7-8 usually on 80's but is feeling like a 9-10 training "under the influence" if you get to where you can go to 85 then 90 over the long run "under the influence" is still going to be an improvement. I think not getting sleep would be worse on you than lifting slightly less weight. Especially if you just gradually work your way up again from there.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Gotcha. That’s what I was thinking. Thanks.
Dustin07
Legend
I think you are living walking proof of that. sure calories/gear help but you have been very mindful about your goals and you are seeing fantastic hypertrophic gains with lighter weights while protecting ligaments etc, right?
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Well, it’s not just lighter weights, but if I could get the same weight but 5 more reps…that could be significant I was unsure about.
Dustin07
Legend
I'm not 100% sure I follow but I think I do. I had that big 225 x 10 goal which I think helped build hypertrophy and conditioning but had a point of diminishing returns. I think it had some carryover to 1rm, but I'm not sure that doing 13 or 15 at that same weight would, know what I mean? I think from 1rm of 275, to 300, my 225 x 10 never really grew. maybe 225 x 11 or something. but for shear top end strength I found training the heaviest possible singles/doubles I could every week was what built my bench.
of course, thats bb, not db. sorta different beast since nobody really recommends or trains db for 1rm.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
I meant…if I take 3mg lunesta, I can get let’s say 8 reps with 80’s, but if I take 1.5mg lunesta I can get 12 reps with the 80’s.
Hyde
Legend
Muscles don’t know weight, only effort. So if you are training at a sufficient effort to stimulate adaptation, like Kleen said you should still see progress in performance metrics and therefore size over time. The absolute size and numbers will take longer to achieve with the initial decrease in your capabilities, but progress should theoretically come at the same rate.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Update: slept really well, no PEM. Could’ve used a little more, but feel good today. The only difference in diet was no veggies or fruit at all. Eggs, chicken, rice, naan and a bagel. So weird.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Deadlift 4 (or 5 sets) x 3 x 365
Back Extensions (varied angles) 3, 5
Mid-Row Machine 10x245, 8x265, 8x285, 6x305
Machine Shrug 3 x 8/8/8 x 250
Hammer Curls 3 x 9/8/8 x 30’s
Machine Preacher Curls 2 x 9 x 30
Facepulls 2 x 12/10 x 16.5
Felt a lot better today and could definitely tell in my DL. Unsure if I did 4 or 5 sets though, but leaning towards 5. Shrug performance is moving up faster than anything oddly enough.
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GreenMachineX
Well-known member
PEM got me good today, even though I totaled about 7 hours sleep.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Note that I’m looking over it, maybe I deserve the PEM I got lol
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Weight: 223.2
Seated DB Press 3 x 11/11/10 x 70’s
Machine Chest Press 3 x 8/8/9 x 200
Seated DB Lateral Raise 3 x 11/10/9 x 12.5’s
Triceps Pressdown 15x38.5, 10x44, 9x49.5
Improvements in OHP and chest press. Gonna keep eating at a mild surplus for a while longer.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Safety Bar Squat 5x255, 2 x 3 x 275
NG Pull-up 4 x 4
Machine Shrugs 10x250, 2 x 8 x 270
Reverse Pec Deck 3 x 11 x 30
Incline DB Curls 3 x 10/10/7 x 25’s
Machine Preacher 2 x 10 x 30
Single Leg Curls 2 x 10 x 45
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GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Sleep has finally been consistently better…eating 4k kcal per day lol. Still using 7mg test cyp per day. I’ll do labs mid May to ensure good levels.
Might drop to 1.5mg lunesta tonight.
Might drop to 1.5mg lunesta tonight.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Low Incline DB Press 3 x 8/8/9 x 80’s
Machine OHP 3 x 8 x 190
Dips 8/8/9
Seated DB Lateral Raise 3 x 12/12/15 x 10’s
Skullcrushers 3 x 8/7/6 x 60
Small improvements again.