thebigt
Legend
what conservative policies do you agree with?
Anyone worried if Corona virus keeps spreading the gyms will shut down?
- Thread starter JoePaul39
- Start date
Bagofturdwind
Member
Much of free market and private property rights, social security reform, and opposing long-term welfare, as there are other avenues to provide economic fairness. I mean I’m sure there are a few more that aren’t even on my mind right now. For one, I think being professionally outraged about unfounded things like not wearing a mask out in public and when not around masses of people is a waste of energy and an easy stance bc it makes for good optics. I don’t get virtue signaling for a frickin mask that people wear incorrectly anyway. However, I understand outrage when it comes to larger, more founded problems — especially human rights issues.
thebigt
Legend
how do you explain democrats being in charge of the cities where most of the human rights problems seem to be occurring?
Bagofturdwind
Member
There are dozens of human rights issues, and they’re not limited to cities. At face value of course cities = more people = higher incidence of problems. Idk why you think I’m some hard core democrat. I believe it’s a bit telling when someone tries to add some nuance concerning race equity and police brutality, and they immediately get labeled as a dem.
thebigt
Legend
because you are a dem-correct?
HIT4ME
Well-known member
This thread is great.
As far as the racism stuff - a few thoughts. I am not sure how any liberal cannot consider themselves racist if Biden gets in. First they vote for a totally unqualified person based solely on the color of his skin, then they turn around and put a man who has all the quotes listed earlier in this thread. And that ignores their much longer history of being in the wrong side of racism.
But the fact the media can so easily twist people by claiming racism, is scary. The media portrays right and wrong as if it is based on skin color.
From what I see - The Floyd death was wrong but nit because it had anything to do with racism - because he was already handcuffed and once an officer cuffs you it is their duty to protect you. And if you and your partner cannot handle someone who is cuffed without killing them, you are in the wrong job. But in this case, I think it was an abuse of power and possibly had some malice aforethought behind it. If Floyd was white, it would be equally wrong.
In Atlanta - what would people be saying if the cops let the guy go home after they caught him drunk driving and we found out? They were protecting other people from him. And then what would we say if the guy took their taser and then actually was successful in using it on one of the pokice officers? He already took one of their weapons, what is the next weapon he would take if he could have tased one of them? Then what would people be saying. This was wrong of the perpetrator, he made mistakes, and rhe cops were right. And if the perp was white, nothing would be changed - I would expect the same outcome from the police.
And to think this isn't the media pushing an agenda is very questionable because - as some people have said, supposedly lots of black people are killed by the police under racist pretenses. If that is the case, then why clis Atlanta being included? Can't they find a better example? Why is Floyd suddenly an issue when this has supposedly been going on forever?
I do think it is worth considering the history of racism in the world, many black people have been mistreated, and maybe black men have more fear of the cops because of this, but I think the narrative being pushed here is actually stirring this fear more and making it more dangerous for black people dealing with the police. If yoy are saying a black man is more likely to resist arrest or mess up because they are more afraid and thus desperate - then solidifying that narrative would only make things more dangerous.
The liberals and the media have felt free to call everyone who disagrees with them a racist and use it for their own agenda.
As far as black people getting shot at a higher rate - probably two contributing factors. As above, they are likely more fearful if the potential consequences of being arrested, and poverty.
And both those issues probably deserve some attention and work. Making black men more fearful by putting out exaggerated news stories does the opposite of help. And all poverty needs work.
As far as the racism stuff - a few thoughts. I am not sure how any liberal cannot consider themselves racist if Biden gets in. First they vote for a totally unqualified person based solely on the color of his skin, then they turn around and put a man who has all the quotes listed earlier in this thread. And that ignores their much longer history of being in the wrong side of racism.
But the fact the media can so easily twist people by claiming racism, is scary. The media portrays right and wrong as if it is based on skin color.
From what I see - The Floyd death was wrong but nit because it had anything to do with racism - because he was already handcuffed and once an officer cuffs you it is their duty to protect you. And if you and your partner cannot handle someone who is cuffed without killing them, you are in the wrong job. But in this case, I think it was an abuse of power and possibly had some malice aforethought behind it. If Floyd was white, it would be equally wrong.
In Atlanta - what would people be saying if the cops let the guy go home after they caught him drunk driving and we found out? They were protecting other people from him. And then what would we say if the guy took their taser and then actually was successful in using it on one of the pokice officers? He already took one of their weapons, what is the next weapon he would take if he could have tased one of them? Then what would people be saying. This was wrong of the perpetrator, he made mistakes, and rhe cops were right. And if the perp was white, nothing would be changed - I would expect the same outcome from the police.
And to think this isn't the media pushing an agenda is very questionable because - as some people have said, supposedly lots of black people are killed by the police under racist pretenses. If that is the case, then why clis Atlanta being included? Can't they find a better example? Why is Floyd suddenly an issue when this has supposedly been going on forever?
I do think it is worth considering the history of racism in the world, many black people have been mistreated, and maybe black men have more fear of the cops because of this, but I think the narrative being pushed here is actually stirring this fear more and making it more dangerous for black people dealing with the police. If yoy are saying a black man is more likely to resist arrest or mess up because they are more afraid and thus desperate - then solidifying that narrative would only make things more dangerous.
The liberals and the media have felt free to call everyone who disagrees with them a racist and use it for their own agenda.
As far as black people getting shot at a higher rate - probably two contributing factors. As above, they are likely more fearful if the potential consequences of being arrested, and poverty.
And both those issues probably deserve some attention and work. Making black men more fearful by putting out exaggerated news stories does the opposite of help. And all poverty needs work.
Hilltern
Member
On a reluctant side note, what do you guys think of the physical fitness of police forces these days? I think it is an embarrassment we have cops that chase twinkies more than they chase suspects. In general if Americans had better physical health maybe corona wouldn’t be so bad here.
Hilltern
Member
Except not just like society because we hold them to higher standards. Just seems like we’ve forgotten about physical standards in the police forces. I’ve seen some chubby soldiers too. How hard is it to mandate some cardio?
SkRaw85
Legend
Hilltern
Member
We should raise taxes just enough to afford a David Goggins type to shadow each PD and yell **** like “put the Big Mac down!”How dare you body shame our boys in blue!!!!
puccah8808
Legend
The whites were protesting at the hospital today. “Defund the rich, put it back into the community. Hospital stays are vacations for the rich.”
thebigt
Legend
lol...the closest i've gotten to a hospital stay in last 20 years is the ER.The whites were protesting at the hospital today. “Defund the rich, put it back into the community. Hospital stays are vacations for the rich.”
patch and release...just like a damned fish
Ricky10
Well-known member
Well, shot by police and killed by police would be different numbers. The 50 total deaths is just a yearly average for the sake of easier math. This is what the Washington Post reports for 2019 deaths:
A total of 41 unarmed people were shot and killed by US police in 2019. The racial composition of victims is: White: 19, Black: 9, Hispanic: 6, Other: 4, Unknown: 3.
Honestly, I also don’t care if it is 50, 30, or 7. Any would be a very low number when you consider the situations officers have to deal with IMO. Also, you are correct that black Americans account for 13% of the population. Unfortunately, they still manage to account for 50% of violent crimes which is really quite despicable. Before scrutinizing law enforcement and playing the victim role over and over, they really need to look at themselves and significantly raise their own standards.
Here is another interesting little tid-bit too: Since 2015, the number of unarmed black men being killed by police has fallen below 10 per year. More police officers are killed by blacks than unarmed blacks killed by police officers in 2018 and 2019.
As far as police officers being “trigger happy,” this certainly can’t be a blanket statement, and I am sure most of them would just assume not engage themselves in gunfire period. We have already seen officers succumb and hold back during the protests/riots, and most people would agree that hasn’t gone over so well.
I’m so disappointed in the black and white citizens of our country who are on board with these protests and destruction of our historic monuments (among other things) that I really can’t put it into words. Such a disgraceful period of American history.
Bagofturdwind
Member
If you’re going to cherrypick stats, here’s a collaborative breakdown of crowdsourced and other research. Oh yeah, and they also kindly share The Post’s data (which shies on the conservative side) that literally says 13 black men — not the 9 you mentioned.
Invalid Link Removed
We can all find articles with some graph that supports whatever it is we want to tell ourselves. Look, it’s clear I’m not changing your mind that black Americans are mistreated at a higher rate than other groups in this country. You also seem impassioned about stymying any racial analysis that appears favorable for black people. It’s a weird hill to die on as a white man, but go ahead. I guess wanting to improve upon the livelihoods of a mistreated group of people means I’m part of the sheep, brainwashed, hate whites and not woke to real facts, as so I’ve been told here. To each his own.
Iwilleattuna
Well-known member
The whites were protesting at the hospital today. “Defund the rich, put it back into the community. Hospital stays are vacations for the rich.”
Haven't seen any Asians protesting either lol
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
13...interesting...so still more police officers being killed by African Americans.
Quest
Active member
If they want the police defunded and exploited, just remove them from the areas they live. Let them get high on hardcore drugs passing counterfeit bills at their businesses.
Move those resources to my neighborhood.
Another thing that I can't believe maybe due to my privileged life is the removal of statues and monuments.
I can understand the Confederate flag, but wasn't Abe a Republican that created the emancipation proclamation?
Who what American supports what Confederates wanted? From my understanding it was fight or be killed.
Nobody, it's another media shitpile to raise racial tensions. How Democrats work.
Move those resources to my neighborhood.
Another thing that I can't believe maybe due to my privileged life is the removal of statues and monuments.
I can understand the Confederate flag, but wasn't Abe a Republican that created the emancipation proclamation?
Who what American supports what Confederates wanted? From my understanding it was fight or be killed.
Nobody, it's another media shitpile to raise racial tensions. How Democrats work.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
13...interesting...so still more police officers being killed by African Americans.
I also wonder how “unarmed” is defined. Is it truly unarmed like a Floyd, or like you stole my taser and shot it at me? This is a serious question actually.
thebigt
Legend
i grew up poor in a predominately black neighborhood...it has less to do with color of skin than it does with finances-poor people of ALL colors will be treated with less respect and dignity than the more affluent---race is secondary to money....
i've said it once and will say it again---the only color that matters is green!!!!
BamBam54
Well-known member
This "number" of blacks unjustly killed by white police officers.... I'd like to know more about each particular story. What actually happened, why were they killed. Were they resisting arrest? Did they attack the police first?
George Floyd looks like a pretty clear cut example of police brutality and murder to me (accidental or intentional). The same exact thing has happened to white criminals too (without rioting afterwards) just look up Tony Timpa. When it happens, the police need to be held accountable (*not every officer in the country, only the guilty one!)
Brooks in Atlanta was a totally justified shooting in my book. You commit a crime, then resist arrest, then punch a cop, then steal his taser... you should expect to be shot. Happens to white criminals too.
How many of these unarmed "police brutality" killings were not preceeded by criminal activity, resisting arrest, and violence against the police first? Serious question. Do we have other examples by name?
George Floyd looks like a pretty clear cut example of police brutality and murder to me (accidental or intentional). The same exact thing has happened to white criminals too (without rioting afterwards) just look up Tony Timpa. When it happens, the police need to be held accountable (*not every officer in the country, only the guilty one!)
Brooks in Atlanta was a totally justified shooting in my book. You commit a crime, then resist arrest, then punch a cop, then steal his taser... you should expect to be shot. Happens to white criminals too.
How many of these unarmed "police brutality" killings were not preceeded by criminal activity, resisting arrest, and violence against the police first? Serious question. Do we have other examples by name?
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Wow! I never heard of the Timpa story and that one was even more tragic! The man who actually called 911 ended up dead...but, that wasn’t all over the news, was it?
BamBam54
Well-known member
Also look up Justine Damond - white australian woman murdered by black Somalia cop in Minneapolis. Australians were pissed, but didn't riot.
More than enough tragedy to go around. Would love to have a great solution, but I do not. Hopefully these incidents remain rare and are not exploited for political gain.
More than enough tragedy to go around. Would love to have a great solution, but I do not. Hopefully these incidents remain rare and are not exploited for political gain.
Bagofturdwind
Member
I understand what you’re saying here, and yes money matters. Your rich black Americans that turn up their charm are treated very well — e.g. OJ in his heyday and Michael Jordan. But there’s a reason they were treated so well. They continually ignored public affairs that would make them be perceived as black, and they refused to say/do anything that would stir the pot. Everything was PR and seeing green; they didn’t want to behave in any manner that would make white people uncomfortable in fear of their image and finances taking a hit. It’s quite ironic for OJ in the end. However, let’s be real, these two are such a small fraction of how black people experience the American life. Most people aren’t super rich, and many black Americans grow up in cities in which they have their own dialogue, own way of dressing, and unique personalities — the very things that make white suburbia or middle America uncomfortable. This is why intentional and unintentional microaggressions become a thing. I’m sure it wasn’t easy being poor as a kid, but here’s the thing, once you age, being poor isn’t a part of your physical being. No one knows from looking at you now that you were poor. However, everyone knows someone is black upon sight and reflexively has their microaggressions and preconceived beliefs.
This is the last thing I’ll say about this topic, and then I’ll leave it alone, and I hope people consider this. The best analogy I’ve heard is that typical American lives are like swimming across a river with different currents. It’s rarely easy — for anyone. Nonetheless, there’s a group of ultra rich people that have the current strongly at their back while they swim to the other side. It’s easier for them. There’s your average white American life, which requires a lot of work and is like swimming with a side current pushing you from left to right as you try to get to the other side. It certainly takes a lot of work. Then there’s the average black American life, which has the current completely against them. It takes a ton of work and stamina. Life is rarely easy for anyone, but we’d be remiss to ignore the extra effort it takes by black Americans to overcome obstacles and get to the other side. Idk why people can’t just consider that.
BamBam54
Well-known member
Bagofturdwind - do your not even see how offensive and insensitive it is for you to use a SWIMMING analogy to describe the plight of blacks in America. Holy cow!!!
Another case of white privilege when you don't really understand the issue (or seemingly care) at all. Push push push out the virtue signaling talking points, but really see and hear nothing at all. Bummer for the cause....
Another case of white privilege when you don't really understand the issue (or seemingly care) at all. Push push push out the virtue signaling talking points, but really see and hear nothing at all. Bummer for the cause....
Bagofturdwind
Member
You surely can’t be serious.... you think I made that analogy up? I literally said this is an analogy I’ve heard. Guess who I’ve heard it from? Influential black leaders. I do appreciate you looking out for black people’s feelings on this matter though. It’s kind of funny that the same people that yell “snowflake” at the left get all bent out of shape and offended by racial discourse. Instead of continually finding an issue with extremely trivial things in my rather benign posts, please reevaluate why you have an unwavering commitment to nitpick verbiage instead of looking at the significance of what’s actually being said. Thanks.
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thebigt
Legend
in AA and NA your attitude would be what is called a enabler.
HIT4ME
Well-known member
What behaviors, exactly, would make you see someone as black, as bolded above? Would not displaying these behaviors make you see them as "not black"?
This is not a bash against you, this type of issue is prevalent in many people who jump into these types of situations. I am sure I have some bias, even if it is slight, because it is human nature.
And this is not just you - it goes all the way up to the presidency, as it is exactly the type of thing Biden said, "If you are having trouble deciding between me or Trump, you ain't black!" As if your behavior determines whether you are part of a culture that shares your skin color or not. As if you are part of a culture because of your skin color to begin with.
We are talking about someone's skin color. Not their culture, nor their behaviors, etc.
Now if you want to talk about poverty, then we are no longer limiting it to the color of one's skin.
As far as not wanting to "behave in a manner that would make white people uncomfortable" - to a large extent a lot of white people behave this way as well. Most people don't want to go outside of societal norms.
Now, once we get beyond skin color, if someone chooses to brand themselves as part of a gang, or behave in certain ways that are associated with criminal behavior - are you saying that it is wrong to want to avoid or even eliminate that behavior? I would see that as a basic survival instinct.
You are also incorrect - studies have shown that people are incredibly good at judging the financial status of others on sight. It's incredible, but you can "sense" someone who is poor and someone who is not based on micro behaviors that apparently most people are subconsciously attuned to. It's hard to shake.
I'm not saying you're wrong, and this discussion should be had and is actually welcome in my eyes. The rioting and misinformation and double-standard for what versions of racism are OK vs. which version is not OK is something I think often goes unnoticed.
Keep up the debate. I don't agree with you, but I get where you're coming from.
Bagofturdwind
Member
You’re right. Whenever someone in AA speaks, the rest of the group tells them they’re being dramatic and to get over it and quit being a crybaby.
It’s not enabling to acknowledge an ex-alcoholic’s sobriety is going to be more difficult than your average joe’s. It’s not even about the excuse making for them either. It’s having the understanding to say, “sh*t that’s gotta be difficult for them at times; if I can make life a little better for them, maybe I should.”
SkRaw85
Legend
That’s the one with the video I believe correct? Dude in the hallway crawling towards the cops and they blast him to smithereens while he calls for his mama? Yeah, Floyd got nothin on that one.
SkRaw85
Legend
Nope that a different one. I’ll have to dig for the one I’m thinking of.
Bagofturdwind
Member
Thanks for a normal response. The debate is exhausting when people continually fail to see the larger point. They get bogged down in little details that can derail it — then they’ve won. This isn’t you. Just most of the others in this thread.
I live in a city. I actually teach at an inner city school. Do I have some bias to speak on behalf of the black students in my classroom and absorb what the black leaders in my community say? Absolutely. But I feel I need to when so many other white Americans dismiss it when it comes out of their mouths. I’ll be 100% honest with you. Before getting involved within the inner city community years ago, I was dismissive about some of these issues. The difference is when people started to speak up, I started to listen and tried to self-reflect rather than deflect and deny what they’re saying.
There are defining characteristics of black America. Consider over half of black Americans live in only 10 states and a majority live in cities. Of course there are outliers that would make certain characteristics atypical, but you get my larger point.
On the matter of being able to identify people as wealthy or not sight on scene, I’d argue that’s kind of the point. We’re already equipped with some bias and feelings toward said person, as you mentioned. Much is the same with black America — especially black men in street clothes. It’s not lying to yourself saying, “I don’t see color” as much as it is “I see your color and recognize any preconceived notions and expectations I may have” and working tirelessly to fix this. How can you fix something if you don’t even acknowledge it? This question isn’t a personal attack on anyone. It’s a more fundamental question posed to the general public. That’s really my main issue in this thread. People take things so personal and don’t want to acknowledge a problem may exist. They abruptly throw some misdirection in there to stray from the root of the problem.
thebigt
Legend
you are forgetting one important thing...personal responsibility-that is what AA teaches.
lol...you should have met my AA sponsor, he was about as understanding as a brickwall..RIP Willie
puccah8808
Legend
We’re the “model minority.”
puccah8808
Legend
We’re the “model minority.”
thebigt
Legend
INDEED
Iwilleattuna
Well-known member
True
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
But that’s the standard the rest of us are being held to. “Don’t say this, don’t say that, it’s all racist!” *Maybe* you’re not like that, I don’t know, but that’s what’s happening out there. So, hold yourself to the same standard.
Quest
Active member
I think many of us reflect and put ourselves in their positions. I certainly do.
The only leadership I see is this angry emotional black lives matter entity. Fueling the bullshit. What Democrats are taking responsibility for them shitting all over their communities and burning down folks livelihoods?
I want to watch my fooking lockdown damnit.
The only leadership I see is this angry emotional black lives matter entity. Fueling the bullshit. What Democrats are taking responsibility for them shitting all over their communities and burning down folks livelihoods?
I want to watch my fooking lockdown damnit.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
Exactly. It’s no one’s fault but our own where we end up. I know too many people that saw the cards they were dealt and still won the hand than to buy into the current garbage.
I’m not saying racism isn’t a problem, of course it is. So is money laundering, drugs, medical malpractice...Speaking of that one, how many doctors kill African Americans per year? It’s probably more than 13...
But, those other issues don’t start the same fire.
Bagofturdwind
Member
This is a reasonable take as long as you’re willing to listen to other groups of people and potentially change your words or behavior. E.g. Asian Americans put up with the term “oriental” for way too long bc they’re a generally passive people, but now that it’s out in the open that they find this term offensive, it would be racist to know this and say, “That oriental dude needs directions” even if you don’t have malice in your heart. If you didn’t know that word is offensive, that’s where the listening and changing behavior part comes in. I don’t agree with the GotchU! cancel culture. Waiting for someone to say one thing incorrectly so you could pounce and say “canceled!” is toxic and counterproductive to the overall point of learning and understanding each other.
thebigt
Legend
lol...i was raised by my single parent mom...when i used to get mad at her i would say that i wished i were born to rich parents---and my mom would say life isn't fair, life is what you make of it, and then she would beat my ass...i love my mom for those ass beatings!!!
mase1
Well-known member
I do think the BLM is missing a appointed leader that can lead the proper concerns. Instead it is the "ME" movement and half are offending each other or not agreeing with what is being said. Very similar to the Seattle barricade, they only need community to take care of themselves. Highest murder rate in the US, sure CNN is running a story to show why you need appointed leaders and police, lol.
GreenMachineX
Well-known member
I see what your saying. I want to counter with something else though that no one ever discusses, except in NA/AA and it’s along the lines of personal responsibility...but at what point am I responsible for how I feel? Thoughts influence our feelings and our feelings influence our actions. So, if I control my thoughts, I can control my feelings and so on. If someone tells me to go f—- myself in an argument, it’s my choice to get upset about it. I can choose to be offended by anything if I want to. That doesn’t make it right. Same with name calling or anything. I just learned today that to be “grandfathered in” is a racist comment. But if that feels offensive and upsets you if someone said it, that’s a choice you made to be offended. I let a couple people anger me on this board before. But you know what? I LET them. I’m responsible for how I felt in that debate/argument. But most of the time, I’m not going to give someone that much power over me and my emotions.