Anyone still supporting Trump?

[Young Gotti]

If it means the amount my taxes go up is about the same as what I'm paying now in insurance, copays, deductibles, etc then, yeah, that makes the most sense.

I dont know what anyone else pays for their insurance...but in my situation...the taxes would be drastically higher than what I'm paying now...that mixed with quality of care, wait time, and innovation all getting worse is not worth it

 

[ax1]

I dont know what anyone else pays for their insurance...but in my situation...the taxes would be drastically higher than what I'm paying now...that mixed with quality of care, wait time, and innovation all getting worse is not worth it

Imagine how much cheaper your insurance would be as well if it was taken out of the health care system back to its original intent, which is "insurance" and you simply paid doctors directly at their own offices and cut out the massive beuracracy in between which has absolutely nothing to do with providing health care. Plus you would have extra cash flow instead of having your earnings stolen from you to pay for something for others through forces charity.

 

[ax1]

I think you're taking away the primary disincentive. I also think we could do more in terms of public education (not schools in this case but things like PSAs, outreach programs, etc) to get people to make better choices.

At the end of the day, though all social animals end up having to carry a few slackers in the pack, herd, flock, what-have-you. It sucks but it is pretty much inevitable.

Education is also good, Im down with much more if it when implemented properly.

People are willing to help other people, thats not a problem. Years ago doctors made far less and even so you would walk up and if you couldnt afford it you just pay what you can directly and they would take care of you for the most part.

There used to be a thing called Church Charity Hospitals, they never told people no, but many of them have been out regulated with the Federal/corporate bribed invasion of the health care system.

People donate money for great causes every moment of every day, millions and millions. There would be more of it if it wasnt stolen from them to pay for something that gets its costs drastically inflated with massive bureaucracies.
Im more optimistic about man kind doing well rather than relying on corrupt government bribed by the health care industry elite to enforce these services on us.

 

[nostrum420]

Education is also good, Im down with much more if it when implemented properly.

People are willing to help other people, thats not a problem. Years ago doctors made far less and even so you would walk up and if you couldnt afford it you just pay what you can directly and they would take care of you for the most part.

There used to be a thing called Church Charity Hospitals, they never told people no, but many of them have been out regulated with the Federal/corporate bribed invasion of the health care system.

People donate money for great causes every moment of every day, millions and millions. There would be more of it if it wasnt stolen from them to pay for something that gets its costs drastically inflated with massive bureaucracies.
Im more optimistic about man kind doing well rather than relying on corrupt government bribed by the health care industry elite to enforce these services on us.

and then the AMA happened...

 

[nostrum420]

I dont know what anyone else pays for their insurance...but in my situation...the taxes would be drastically higher than what I'm paying now...that mixed with quality of care, wait time, and innovation all getting worse is not worth it

How do you know that? What if we end up in the best case scenario projection?

We have wait times here too. Quality of care is often better in countries with single payer. I don't think people interested in innovating new medicines are going to stop just because they can't get rich off of it.

 

[ax1]

and then the AMA happened...

AMA was from the 1800s,thats not what Im talking about. The downfall was during the time of Nixon and The Health Maintenance Organization Act of 1973 destroying the concept of a free market health care system and actual real insurance. Merger of corporate and state, our health care system is run by a fascist like ecosystem.

 

[ax1]

Quality of care is often better in countries with single payer.

I like to aim much higher than them with a much better health care quality and enviornment along with not stealing from people on top of it at gunpoint and throw them in prisons for trying to keep their earnings.

I don't think people interested in innovating new medicines are going to stop just because they can't get rich off of it.

People wont disappear, but you will more minds perhaps choosing different fields where they dont have as much of a burden the the government breathing down their necks and room to scale than the medicine field.

 

[ax1]

single payer.

I support single payer. Walk up to the desk after the visit before you leave and whip your wallet out and pay the doctor cash or bitcoin off the books. No need to go through many useless people processing your claim.

 

[nostrum420]

I like to aim much higher than them with a much better health care quality and enviornment along with not stealing from people on top of it at gunpoint and throw them in prisons for trying to keep their earnings.



People wont disappear, but you will more minds perhaps choosing different fields where they dont have as much of a burden the the government breathing down their necks and room to scale than the medicine field.

I disagree. I think the people that are best at doing a certain thing are the best at it because they're passionate about it not because it makes them rich.

 

[nostrum420]

I support single payer. Walk up to the desk after the visit before you leave and whip your wallet out and pay the doctor cash or bitcoin off the books. No need to go through many useless people processing your claim.

Yes, it basically was that way, and then the AMA happened. They basically invented insurance as we know it and their main goal is to make sure doctors get paid as much as possible.

 

[nostrum420]

I like to aim much higher than them with a much better health care quality and enviornment along with not stealing from people on top of it at gunpoint and throw them in prisons for trying to keep their earnings.



People wont disappear, but you will more minds perhaps choosing different fields where they dont have as much of a burden the the government breathing down their necks and room to scale than the medicine field.

You can aim for making everyone immortal but that doesn't make it realistic. Find me a private system that works as well or better than single payer (as it's commonly understood)

 

[ax1]

You can aim for making everyone immortal but that doesn't make it realistic. Find me a private system that works as well or better than single payer (as it's commonly understood)

Its just common sense and extremely realistic. Pay a doctor directly. Get insurance in case of catastrophic events. Charities exists. Doctors dont tell everybody no. Dont charge people with the only other option of going to prison for services they may or may not use.

People get medical care, doctor gets paid, absence of bureaucracy dramatically cuts costs, and in case something bad happens insurance which will be dramatically affordable will be needed. Government will be there with no special interests to step in when crimes happen, or to have regulations (State level) to protect consumers.

Not only is a free market health care system extremely realistic, but also extremely simplified.

On top of that, the US government is the most corrupt government on the face of the earth. The concept of allowing them to fix the very problems they directly cause is extremely naive. Even Mr. "Ill never take a single penny from lobby" Obobo tricked everybody and made his lobbyists and the corporations than financed him a fortune.

The only reason people think free market health care is unrealistic is that they are grown conditioned to government dependence and vote based off lies and trust.

 

[ax1]

I disagree. I think the people that are best at doing a certain thing are the best at it because they're passionate about it not because it makes them rich.

It comes to a point where being punished for productivity via government is demoralizing to a bunch and perhaps not just career change, but finding other options such as going to other countries that are more lax and rewarding to productivity.

 

[nostrum420]

Its just common sense and extremely realistic. Pay a doctor directly. Get insurance in case of catastrophic events. Charities exists. Doctors dont tell everybody no. Dont charge people with the only other option of going to prison for services they may or may not use.

People get medical care, doctor gets paid, absence of bureaucracy dramatically cuts costs, and in case something bad happens insurance which will be dramatically affordable will be needed. Government will be there with no special interests to step in when crimes happen, or to have regulations (State level) to protect consumers.

Not only is a free market health care system extremely realistic, but also extremely simplified.

On top of that, the US government is the most corrupt government on the face of the earth. The concept of allowing them to fix the very problems they directly cause is extremely naive. Even Mr. "Ill never take a single penny from lobby" Obobo tricked everybody and made his lobbyists and the corporations than financed him a fortune.

The only reason people think free market health care is unrealistic is that they are grown conditioned to government dependence and vote based off lies and trust.

So, is there anywhere on earth that this kind of system is working out?

 

[ax1]

So, is there anywhere on earth that this kind of system is working out?

Thats completely irrelevant. Thats like saying the US Founding Fathers shouldnt have fought for independence and then implemented the US Constitution a few years later because there was no system anywhere on earth of that kind working out. Maybe they should have copied France or something. Look how we turned out...well minus the bad stuff, lol

 

[nostrum420]

It comes to a point where being punished for productivity via government is demoralizing to a bunch and perhaps not just career change, but finding other options such as going to other countries that are more lax and rewarding to productivity.

Also, most of the innovation in medicine is already socialized and usually done by people who don't make oodles for it. Most of that is done at Universities and funded by Gov grants.

 

[nostrum420]

Thats completely irrelevant. Thats like saying the US Founding Fathers shouldnt have fought for independence and then implemented the US Constitution a few years later because there was no system anywhere on earth of that kind working out. Maybe they should have copied France or something. Look how we turned out...well minus the bad stuff, lol

They did have models upon which they based the constitution. Largely the Magna Carta but also the Iriquois Confederacy, and yes, even the French.

 

[ax1]

Also, most of the innovation in medicine is already socialized and usually done by people who don't make oodles for it. Most of that is done at Universities and funded by Gov grants.

Mariam just told me thats not socialism....lol

Hey, Im just aiming much higher, simpler and better. Not claiming single payer doesnt work at all or grants have been totally wasted so I do acknowlege you make good points. We have alot of good things to cheer about even as of today here in the USA and single payer countries.

 

[ax1]

They did have models upon which they based the constitution. Largely the Magna Carta but also the Iriquois Confederacy, and yes, even the French.

Ah, yes Ive heard about that but havent researched much about those. Got me there on that.

 

[ax1]

Also, most of the innovation in medicine is already socialized and usually done by people who don't make oodles for it. Most of that is done at Universities and funded by Gov grants.

So what do you think of simply letting the States run their own health care systems...50 systems, and if you dont like your state you can leave your state. The idea of 50 independent countries running their own policies with the Federal government playing a minimal role. If residents of the state want a single payer system they can have their state gov. put it on the polls as a referendum and people can vote on it without affecting the entire country. That would be more fair right? Or you think the Federal Government would be best to lay the law of the land?

 

[Young Gotti]

How do you know that? What if we end up in the best case scenario projection?

We have wait times here too. Quality of care is often better in countries with single payer. I don't think people interested in innovating new medicines are going to stop just because they can't get rich off of it.

Because as it stands 1 month of medicare right now is almost a full years worth of premiums for me

We do not have the govt deciding what ailments are important vs what arent...our wait times are significantly less

I do...take the profits away and you also take the incentive away

 

[Young Gotti]

Imagine how much cheaper your insurance would be as well if it was taken out of the health care system back to its original intent, which is "insurance" and you simply paid doctors directly at their own offices and cut out the massive beuracracy in between which has absolutely nothing to do with providing health care. Plus you would have extra cash flow instead of having your earnings stolen from you to pay for something for others through forces charity.

I watched a discussion on...what if we made healthcare a totally free market and how prices would be drastically less

The example they used was lasic and how dramatically prices dropped because insurance wasnt involved and places had to compete with each other

But we dont hear any politician advocating for that

 

[ax1]

I watched a discussion on...what if we made healthcare a totally free market and how prices would be drastically less

The example they used was lasic and how dramatically prices dropped because insurance wasnt involved and places had to compete with each other

But we dont hear any politician advocating for that

Simple reason...there is not enough money to bri...excuse me, contribute to their campaign financing.

 

[nostrum420]

So what do you think of simply letting the States run their own health care systems...50 systems, and if you dont like your state you can leave your state. The idea of 50 independent countries running their own policies with the Federal government playing a minimal role. If residents of the state want a single payer system they can have their state gov. put it on the polls as a referendum and people can vote on it without affecting the entire country. That would be more fair right? Or you think the Federal Government would be best to lay the law of the land?

If the USA had progressed as originally intended with different states being more like different countries, I think your system would be a good one.

As it stands I think many states would campaign hard to keep a private system and then sell people worthless insurance. Those people will then end up drawing on Federal programs and the wealthier states will have to subsidize the states that are still driving people into poverty with crappy private insurance.

 

[nostrum420]

Because as it stands 1 month of medicare right now is almost a full years worth of premiums for me

We do not have the govt deciding what ailments are important vs what arent...our wait times are significantly less

I do...take the profits away and you also take the incentive away

As I already posted, most innovation in medicine isn't done by the people making the big bucks.

Instead of the gov deciding which ailments are most important you currently have a profit driven machine trying to deny as much care as possible.

Do you have evidence of our wait times being less? Because I've been down this road with a conservative friend of mine and he couldn't name a procedure that had a long wait in Canada.

 

[ax1]

If the USA had progressed as originally intended with different states being more like different countries, I think your system would be a good one.

As it stands I think many states would campaign hard to keep a private system and then sell people worthless insurance. Those people will then end up drawing on Federal programs and the wealthier states will have to subsidize the states that are still driving people into poverty with crappy private insurance.

They actually launched universal health care in NYC (I live a bit north from there) and extended it to some 1/3rd million ILLEGAL immigrants an all. They started in the Bronx and will be city wide by 2021 with a claimed 100 million dollar a year budget to cover it all.

If you know anybody in the country or breaks the law to come here tell them to go to NYC for 6 months and as long as they have an ID, show low income and prove 6 months NYC residence in any way they will get taken care of via expense of NYC residents. For now send them to the Bronx where its already rolled out.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[nostrum420]

They actually launched universal health care in NYC (I live a bit north from there) and extended it to some 1/3rd million ILLEGAL immigrants an all. They started in the Bronx and will be city wide by 2021 with a claimed 100 million dollar a year budget to cover it all.

If you know anybody in the country or breaks the law to come here tell them to go to NYC for 6 months and as long as they have an ID, show low income and prove 6 months NYC residence in any way they will get taken care of via expense of NYC residents. For now send them to the Bronx where its already rolled out.

Invalid Link Removed

Documented or not keeping them healthy keeps the rest of the heard healthy.

 

[ax1]

Documented or not keeping them healthy keeps the rest of the heard healthy.

Not exactly if taxes are high and the cost of living is expensive because of the taxes, then you are budgeting for canned food and peanut-butter and jelly sandwiches.

 

[nostrum420]

Not exactly if taxes are high and the cost of living is expensive because of the taxes, then you are budgeting for canned food and peanut-butter and jelly sandwiches.

The thing is if you don't keep them healthy they'll show up at the ER with a complicated problem that could have easily and cheaply been prevented.

As a libertarian, wouldn't you say migrants have natural right to move in order to seek prosperity regardless of an imaginary line drawn by nation state governments?

 

[ax1]

The thing is if you don't keep them healthy they'll show up at the ER with a complicated problem that could have easily and cheaply been prevented.

As a libertarian, wouldn't you say migrants have natural right to move in order to seek prosperity regardless of an imaginary line drawn by nation state governments?

Im not a libertarian actually, Im a political atheist and have no interest in joining a political group as of now. Yeah, you will see me pick select Libertarians as people I praise and support, but I hate a bunch of others such as the Kock Bros.

I think its important to have borders and laws and allow people to come here through a legal process. Im not with the Dump crew and I think building a wall is completely pathetic. Rounding up people who simply took advantage of lax laws for the time only to send them back is also wrong (I have spoken differently in the past about last statement but this is where I stand now.)

Its one thing to come here legally and get a job and make it on your own buying into this tax system, its another to come here illegally in poverty with the need of services that were paid by other hard working citizens. Its unsustainable if you let the floodgates all open and this country is completely broke.

 

[Young Gotti]

As I already posted, most innovation in medicine isn't done by the people making the big bucks.

Instead of the gov deciding which ailments are most important you currently have a profit driven machine trying to deny as much care as possible.

Do you have evidence of our wait times being less? Because I've been down this road with a conservative friend of mine and he couldn't name a procedure that had a long wait in Canada.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[ax1]

Invalid Link Removed

I wonder how much better it would get if Canada had the same illegal immigration problems that the US has had, and how their taxpayer feels if taxes went up to cover medical care for those who arent legally there?

 

[ax1]

Invalid Link Removed

Terrorist blows himself up and his 3 children and Dump calls him a coward.

Obobo drops love bomb with drone of compassion and kills 23 children at the Wech Baghtu wedding (children are there, duhhhh) and Dump would call him a hero and increases Obobo's illegal drone strikes.

But today is a great day for the world, one of them is gone, the other is set free. Fartlogic in society at its best.

Backflash:
Dump Cancels Drone Strike Civilian Casualty Report: Does It Matter?
Invalid Link Removed

Dump is nothing but a low life hypocritic maggot who should already be impeached for warcrimes not some Ukrainian krap which is wasting away 100s of millions in investigation of our tax payer money.

 

[nostrum420]

Invalid Link Removed

CHRISTOPHER HAYES: So I guess it’s — it depends on what do you think you’re waiting for. So if you are in a hospital and you need surgery you don’t wait. It gets done in — if it needs to be done in 30 minutes it will be done in 30 minutes. If you need an MRI for care provided in a hospital you will get it whenever — depending on where you are because not every hospital has an MRI, but you will be prioritized and that will happen probably as quickly as it can be done anywhere.

From: Invalid Link Removed

 

[ax1]

CHRISTOPHER HAYES: So I guess it’s — it depends on what do you think you’re waiting for. So if you are in a hospital and you need surgery you don’t wait. It gets done in — if it needs to be done in 30 minutes it will be done in 30 minutes. If you need an MRI for care provided in a hospital you will get it whenever — depending on where you are because not every hospital has an MRI, but you will be prioritized and that will happen probably as quickly as it can be done anywhere.

From: Invalid Link Removed

So he is the "chief medical information officer?"

Lol, my tin foil hat is back on!!!!!

 

[nostrum420]

The other thing about wait times in the US, is that they only count the time you're waiting while you have insurance and not things like waiting for an enrollment period, waiting to get a condition with minor symptoms checked out for years while you're in that crappy middle ground where you make too much to get state insurance but not enough to afford private, etc.

 

[Young Gotti]

CHRISTOPHER HAYES: So I guess it’s — it depends on what do you think you’re waiting for. So if you are in a hospital and you need surgery you don’t wait. It gets done in — if it needs to be done in 30 minutes it will be done in 30 minutes. If you need an MRI for care provided in a hospital you will get it whenever — depending on where you are because not every hospital has an MRI, but you will be prioritized and that will happen probably as quickly as it can be done anywhere.

From: Invalid Link Removed

Didnt know who Christopher hayes was...a quick google search and the first thing a "progressive" journalist...which is just as bias as the koch research you claim is

That's like me posting the video of crowder actually going to canada and showing how he couldn't get service

 

[ax1]

Didnt know who Christopher hayes was...a quick google search and the first thing a "progressive" journalist...which is just as bias as the koch research you claim is

That's like me posting the video of crowder actually going to canada and showing how he couldn't get service

I thought so to as soon as I thought that but I think they are two different people. This Chystopher Hayes is more like Canada's Goebbels in the medical field.

I think if you actually looked at his link and read a little first you could have figured that one out on your own.

 

[nostrum420]

Didnt know who Christopher hayes was...a quick google search and the first thing a "progressive" journalist...which is just as bias as the koch research you claim is

That's like me posting the video of crowder actually going to canada and showing how he couldn't get service

It's not that Christopher Hayes, lol. That would be pretty biased. If you click the link I provided it explains the Chief Medical Information Officer which, I'll agree with Ax on, is a terrible title.

 

[ax1]

The other thing about wait times in the US, is that they only count the time you're waiting while you have insurance and not things like waiting for an enrollment period, waiting to get a condition with minor symptoms checked out for years while you're in that crappy middle ground where you make too much to get state insurance but not enough to afford private, etc.

They just hope you die, thats what it all comes down to. The longer you stall the less money is lost for the share holders. Its screwed up.

 

[Young Gotti]

I thought so to as soon as I thought that but I think they are two different people. This Chystopher Hayes is more like Canada's Goebbels in the medical field.

I think if you actually looked at his link and read a little first you could have figured that one out on your own.

Yeah probably but I just got done with basketball and had fantasy lineups to set that took presidence over me caring

 

[ax1]

Dump is such a hypocrite, so he claims this terrorist boogyman he killed (who knows if its true?) and that "He will never again harm another innocent man, woman or child. He died like a dog."

In the meantime he is selling weapons directly the Saudi's when their war in Yemen had created the worst humanitarian crisis in the world while simultaneously Dump is dropping his Love Bombs from this official Dump Drones of Compassion slaughtering and displacing many innocent men, women and children as if they are dogs.

Who will be the next terrorist boogyman looking to culturally cleanse innocent civilians using genocide in 3rd world countries? Maybe his name is Prezident Dump.

Invalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link RemovedInvalid Link Removed

 

[ax1]

Invalid Link Removed

Haha...,those of you old enough remember Cheney saying the Iraq oil will cover the costs of the illegal US intervention on CIA Saddam Hussein overthrow and the US’s destruction of Iraq?

Where’s our money biiiaaacchhhh!!

If anything Haliberton will grab Syrian oil and give Kurds chicken feed to keep them from rebelling.

We are NEVER leaving Syria! And trust me, the US government doesn’t give a damn about the Kurds. We got what we wanted all along and that’s that black gold.

 

[Aleksandar37]

Invalid Link Removed

Haha...,those of you old enough remember Cheney saying the Iraq oil will cover the costs of the illegal US intervention on CIA Saddam Hussein overthrow and the US’s destruction of Iraq?

Where’s our money biiiaaacchhhh!!

If anything Haliberton will grab Syrian oil and give Kurds chicken feed to keep them from rebelling.

We are NEVER leaving Syria! And trust me, the US government doesn’t give a damn about the Kurds. We got what we wanted all along and that’s that black gold.

That's cute. Russia is letting us play mall cop around the oil fields.

 

[ax1]

That's cute. Russia is letting us play mall cop around the oil fields.

Its all bullcrap, we are in bed with the space program with them and its hard to say precisely whats going on. Thats the best indicator Ive been going by for years to tell me the truth about US/Russia relations.

My gut tells me post WWII they decided to have all their war games in 3rd world countries starting with the Korean War to Vietnam to Afghan to Syria and everything in between. It keeps both both the economics of the weapon manufacturers happie$$$t and keeps these blood thirsty lunatics from getting bored. In the meantime superpower tensions adds to the fun and people beg for having an outrageously military and nuclear weapons program and have no problem having their money taken from them to pay for there "security."

 

[Aleksandar37]

Its all bullcrap, we are in bed with the space program with them and its hard to say precisely whats going on. Thats the best indicator Ive been going by for years to tell me the truth about US/Russia relations.

My gut tells me post WWII they decided to have all their war games in 3rd world countries starting with the Korean War to Vietnam to Afghan to Syria and everything in between. It keeps both both the economics of the weapon manufacturers happie$$$t and keeps these blood thirsty lunatics from getting bored. In the meantime superpower tensions adds to the fun and people beg for having an outrageously military and nuclear weapons program and have no problem having their money taken from them to pay for there "security."

Found a picture of us "guarding" the oil fields for them.
Invalid Link Removed

As for being in bed with them, that I don't agree with. Our leaders are more than willing and may think they're in bed with Russia, but they've been getting played for a long ass time.

 

[ax1]

As for being in bed with them, that I don't agree with. Our leaders are more than willing and may think they're in bed with Russia, but they've been getting played for a long ass time.

Maybe I should have said cheap roach motel and a twin size bed??

 

[ax1]

This is how I call it, for now at least.

If and when former VP SleepyCreepy Joe drops out and he probably will = Hitlery comes in.

If SleepyCreepy Joe stays = no Hitlery in the election.

I dont think Hitlery will jump in if the doddering molester stays.

 

[Aleksandar37]

This is how I call it, for now at least.

If and when former VP SleepyCreepy Joe drops out and he probably will = Hitlery comes in.

If SleepyCreepy Joe stays = no Hitlery in the election.

I dont think Hitlery will jump in if the doddering molester stays.

I hope she does simply for the toll it will take on her health.

 

[EasyEJL]

The law doesn't make exceptions for foreign nationals that the US has a treaty with.

The take care clause doesn't require that the president pursue any particular crime or every single crime.

"To be sure, the extent of the faithful-execution duty is rather unclear. Plainly, the President need not enforce every law to its fullest extent. Common sense suggests that the President may enjoy some discretion in order to gauge the costs and benefits of investigation, apprehension, and prosecution."

^ and that's from the Heritage Foundation

Invalid Link Removed

Except that in no case whatsoever in recorded history was finding evidence of criminal activity considered to be campaign contributions. But you know, keep grasping for straws!