Anyone still supporting Trump?

[nostrum420]

What do you think Medicare, medicaid, and ER care for insured or non insured is?

A half measure, at best.

 

[nostrum420]

What do you think Medicare, medicaid, and ER care for insured or non insured is?

Also, we'd spend waaaaaaay less on the items you mentioned and less overall by providing a basic level of preventative care.

 

[Young Gotti]

Also, we'd spend waaaaaaay less on the items you mentioned and less overall by providing a basic level of preventative care.

Well that is not true

The study often cited has 2 outcomes...1 showing savings and 1 showing more expenses

 

[Young Gotti]

A half measure, at best.

But you quoted something saying "basic" which we already have

 

[nostrum420]

Well that is not true

The study often cited has 2 outcomes...1 showing savings and 1 showing more expenses

1. That analysis was done by a conservative think tank funded by the Koch brothers and it STILL found savings in one of their projections.

2. I wasn't talking about M4A in this case, I meant literally just basic preventative care, things like checkups essentially.

 

[nostrum420]

But you quoted something saying "basic" which we already have

I think a basic level of preventative care fits that description.

 

[nostrum420]

But you quoted something saying "basic" which we already have

The quote just says "health services" are a basic good, not that only basic health services are a basic good.

 

[Young Gotti]

1. That analysis was done by a conservative think tank funded by the Koch brothers and it STILL found savings in one of their projections.

2. I wasn't talking about M4A in this case, I meant literally just basic preventative care, things like checkups essentially.

The koch study found 2 results

Best case scenario numbers..savings

Not best case scenario numbers...more expensive

So which side you favor largely depends on how much faith you have in the govt to be efficient...I bet you know where I stand

Most ppl that are pro m4a, only use one side of the story

 

[Young Gotti]

The quote just says "health services" are a basic good, not that only basic health services are a basic good.

We have health services as I laid out already...like I said

 

[ax1]

I think a basic level of preventative care fits that description.

Off topic...but preventative care should start at home and most people dont give a crap. The definition of preventive care these days is: "lets check up on how your progressing with your self inflicted suicide and lets see how we can mask it."

 

[nostrum420]

The koch study found 2 results

Best case scenario numbers..savings

Not best case scenario numbers...more expensive

So which side you favor largely depends on how much faith you have in the govt to be efficient...I bet you know where I stand

Most ppl that are pro m4a, only use one side of the story

The thing is the study was biased to the right to begin with. That's the context you're leaving out. They set out to prove M4A would be more expensive and still ended up with 1 scenario where it's less expensive and one where it's only slightly more.

 

[nostrum420]

We have health services as I laid out already...like I said

And they're clearly insufficient, like I said.

 

[nostrum420]

Off topic...but preventative care should start at home and most people dont give a crap. The definition of preventive care these days is: "lets check up on how your progressing with your self inflicted suicide and lets see how we can mask it."

Yes, everyone is awful. Got it.

 

[Young Gotti]

The thing is the study was biased to the right to begin with. That's the context you're leaving out. They set out to prove M4A would be more expensive and still ended up with 1 scenario where it's less expensive and one where it's only slightly more.

Ok you can spin it that way but it's irrelevant since that's the study often cited by the left

I'm simply pointing out that they arent telling the full truth

So to say m4a would save ppl money flat out, is not something that could be said with 100% certainty

 

[Young Gotti]

And they're clearly insufficient, like I said.

Disagree...covers children, disabled, elderly, and even non citizens...which leave able bodied americans to get their own insurance

 

[nostrum420]

Our life expectancy is going down. Healthcare is insufficient in the US.

 

[Young Gotti]

Yes, everyone is awful. Got it.


Our life expectancy is going down. Healthcare is insufficient in the US.

So your correlating life expectancy with healthcare?

 

[nostrum420]

So your correlating life expectancy with healthcare?

Dude, really? I could do a dissertation on why healthcare in this country is insufficient.

 

[Young Gotti]

Dude, really? I could do a dissertation on why healthcare in this country is insufficient.

Yeah really...are you saying life expectancy decreasing is driven by healthcare in america?

 

[nostrum420]

Ok you can spin it that way but it's irrelevant since that's the study often cited by the left

I'm simply pointing out that they arent telling the full truth

So to say m4a would save ppl money flat out, is not something that could be said with 100% certainty

It's not spin it's facts. It would be like if mother's against drunk driving conducted a study that found a scenario where alcohol improved driving and one where alcohol was a detriment.

 

[nostrum420]

Yeah really...are you saying life expectancy decreasing is driven by healthcare in america?

I'm saying life expectancy is one major data point and healthcare plays a huge role in that. There are many many other ways in which healthcare in this country is insufficient.

 

[Young Gotti]

It's not spin it's facts. It would be like if mother's against drunk driving conducted a study that found a scenario where alcohol improved driving and one where alcohol was a detriment.

Yeah and if Budweiser then cited only the part that said alcohol improved driving...it would be dishonest

Somehow you are trying to say the koch study is right wing...came up with 1 scenario that works for the left and the left have run crazy with it

 

[nostrum420]

Ok you can spin it that way but it's irrelevant since that's the study often cited by the left

I'm simply pointing out that they arent telling the full truth

So to say m4a would save ppl money flat out, is not something that could be said with 100% certainty

You aren't telling the full truth when you leave out the fact that study was biased.

 

[Young Gotti]

I'm saying life expectancy is one major data point and healthcare plays a huge role in that. There are many many other ways in which healthcare in this country is insufficient.

So what do you think will improve healthcare?

 

[nostrum420]

Yeah and if Budweiser then cited only the part that said alcohol improved driving...it would be dishonest

Somehow you are trying to say the koch study is right wing...came up with 1 scenario that works for the left and the left have run crazy with it

I'm saying that even the Heritage Foundation try as they may couldn't prove M4A is the boogey man they make it out to be.

 

[Young Gotti]

You aren't telling the full truth when you leave out the fact that study was biased.

I am not saying if it was bias or not....you said m4a would be way cheaper and I just pointed out...that's not factually correct

 

[nostrum420]

So what do you think will improve healthcare?

Like I said, at least a basic level of preventative care for everyone.

 

[Young Gotti]

I'm saying that even the Heritage Foundation try as they may couldn't prove M4A is the boogey man they make it out to be.

No one is saying it's the boogey man...just blowing holes in the idea that it will save us all

Like I said, at least a basic level of preventative care for everyone.

We have that...try again

 

[nostrum420]

I am not saying if it was bias or not....you said m4a would be way cheaper and I just pointed out...that's not factually correct

Again that's not what I said, I said if we had a basic level of preventative care, we'd save money.

Preventative care always saves money. It's like having the oil changed every 3k miles even though it doesn't always reeeeally need to be changed rather than waiting until the engine seizes.

 

[nostrum420]

No one is saying it's the boogey man...just blowing holes in the idea that it will save us all




We have that...try again

LoL maybe you do but the US as a whole does not.

 

[Young Gotti]

LoL maybe you do but the US as a whole does not.

I'm not talking about me

I laid out for all americans

 

[nostrum420]

I'm not talking about me

I laid out for all americans

No, you did not. You said the able bodied were on their own to take care of themselves. That is not providing a basic level of preventative to everyone. Key words being "providing" and "everyone."

 

[ax1]

Yes, everyone is awful. Got it.

I was just exaggerating the situation, but I find it to be a big problem and I find its unfair monetarily to pay for others lack of effort when I want to further progress my own. If we lived in a world of medicare for all, basic health indicators such as BMI should factor into the tax equation in addition to lifestyle risks such as people that go cliff diving or something.

 

[Young Gotti]

No, you did not. You said the able bodied were on their own to take care of themselves. That is not providing a basic level of preventative to everyone. Key words being "providing" and "everyone."

Yeah if your able bodied....get a job or sign up for the affordable care act.. it is literally available for everyone haha

 

[Young Gotti]

I was just exaggerating the situation, but I find it to be a big problem and I find its unfair monetarily to pay for others lack of effort when I want to further progress my own. If we lived in a world of medicare for all, basic health indicators such as BMI should factor into the tax equation in addition to lifestyle risks such as people that go cliff diving or something.

I agree with this...diet for example is a huge factor for health

Why would I pay extra so someone can get snickers bars all day and then go drink a 6 pack of beer every night

 

[nostrum420]

I was just exaggerating the situation, but I find it to be a big problem and I find its unfair monetarily to pay for others lack of effort when I want to further progress my own. If we lived in a world of medicare for all, basic health indicators such as BMI should factor into the tax equation.

If it were BMI alot of the guys here would be paying extra when they really shouldn't be.

You just have to build in incentives to get people off their butts. Things like requiring a recent physical in order to get a job where you work with food or are in contact with the public.

 

[ax1]

Dude, really? I could do a dissertation on why healthcare in this country is insufficient.

Its bureaucracy care first and foremost, healthcare comes 2nd these days.

 

[ax1]

I'm saying life expectancy is one major data point and healthcare plays a huge role in that. There are many many other ways in which healthcare in this country is insufficient.

That doesnt necessarily imply its directly due to lack of health care, but rather people overeating, junk food and lack of physical activity. More people are playing on their phones rather than moving around.

 

[nostrum420]

Yeah if your able bodied....get a job or sign up for the affordable care act.. it is literally available for everyone haha

Yes but dumb young people that think they're going to live forever screw it up for everyone. Then they end up at the ER, default on their medical bills, the hospital writes it off and gets a tax deduction for the loss and our taxes go up to make up for that shortfall.

 

[nostrum420]

That doesnt necessarily imply its directly due to lack of health care, but rather people overeating, junk food and lack of physical activity. More people are playing on their phones rather than moving around.

I think those habits are largely a result of depression and I include mental healthcare when I say healthcare.

 

[nostrum420]

Yes but dumb young people that think they're going to live forever screw it up for everyone. Then they end up at the ER, default on their medical bills, the hospital writes it off and gets a tax deduction for the loss and our taxes go up to make up for that shortfall.

Whereas if they were provided a basic level of care that would end up costing the system as a whole much less.

 

[Young Gotti]

Yes but dumb young people that think they're going to live forever screw it up for everyone. Then they end up at the ER, default on their medical bills, the hospital writes it off and gets a tax deduction for the loss and our taxes go up to make up for that shortfall.

So the solution is to raise everyone's taxes and have the govt foot the bill for everyone?

 

[ax1]

I think those habits are largely a result of depression and I include mental healthcare when I say healthcare.

Or is it distraction such as the internet, and especially the days in smartphones. Ive been going to gyms for 27 years and I have directly seen a decrease in workout capacity as a whole from everyone for example. This is anecdotal of course.

We give out more anti-depressants than any time in history I dunno how increased health care would solve any of this anyways. Its something in society and perhaps its economical which then taxing people to cover health care would make them less economically stable and probably more depressed. Ive been poor before many years ago, I couldnt have imagined the way it would have been like if I didnt get my tax refund simply because I wasnt able to buy Obamacare I certainly would have felt more depressed knowing its harder for me to catch up economically.

This is a complex issue, the reason I feel the more we put into the solution the more problems we continue to get. Its best to simply stay out of it and give people and and health care system to operated in a free market system.

 

[ax1]

So the solution is to raise everyone's taxes and have the govt foot the bill for everyone?

And then maybe some people will be less responsible for their health since your taking away the primary incentive to avoid getting medical care first place. If there is always a drug available to mask the condition lets keep partaking in destructive behavior such as overeating, drinking booze or eating poisonous crap.

 

[Young Gotti]

And then maybe some people will be less responsible for their health since your taking away the primary incentive to avoid getting medical care first place. If there is always a drug available to mask the condition lets keep partaking in destructive behavior such as overeating, drinking booze or eating poisonous crap.

Yeah a lot of ppl believe that is what would happen

I work in a stationary position..for a minor headache, you should see the pills the older ladies in my office offer me...their purses have enough fire power in them to numb a nation

 

[ax1]

So the solution is to raise everyone's taxes and have the govt foot the bill for everyone?

Its just insane, you get taxed when you make it, then when you spend it, and then when you live on your own piece of earth, they tax you promising to secure your future and then add in what would be a significant tax for a service regardless if you use it or not, and then the ones providing the service get taxed for providing the service, they tax you regardless if you go to school or not even if your 95 years old, and then there are other taxes such as fed/local fees and money gets printed out of thin air which is another trick tax devaluing our currency.

Just get it over with already and make tax 100% and let government guide us in every way. We can all live on communes.

 

[nostrum420]

So the solution is to raise everyone's taxes and have the govt foot the bill for everyone?

If it means the amount my taxes go up is about the same as what I'm paying now in insurance, copays, deductibles, etc then, yeah, that makes the most sense.

 

[ax1]

If it were BMI alot of the guys here would be paying extra when they really shouldn't be.

You just have to build in incentives to get people off their butts. Things like requiring a recent physical in order to get a job where you work with food or are in contact with the public.

That makes sense, I was just making general suggestion, it can be done with more sophistication. Gym time can be clocked, or better yet why not make personal training and basic nutrition coaching covered under M4A as this would be a form of true preventative care. Alot of people dont know what to do and need direction assuming they are motivated enough to try and commit.

 

[nostrum420]

Or is it distraction such as the internet, and especially the days in smartphones. Ive been going to gyms for 27 years and I have directly seen a decrease in workout capacity as a whole from everyone for example. This is anecdotal of course.

We give out more anti-depressants than any time in history I dunno how increased health care would solve any of this anyways. Its something in society and perhaps its economical which then taxing people to cover health care would make them less economically stable and probably more depressed. Ive been poor before many years ago, I couldnt have imagined the way it would have been like if I didnt get my tax refund simply because I wasnt able to buy Obamacare I certainly would have felt more depressed knowing its harder for me to catch up economically.

This is a complex issue, the reason I feel the more we put into the solution the more problems we continue to get. Its best to simply stay out of it and give people and and health care system to operated in a free market system.

I see what you're saying but that person can now go get therapy and ideally, ultimately, get themselves out of both poverty and depression.

 

[nostrum420]

And then maybe some people will be less responsible for their health since your taking away the primary incentive to avoid getting medical care first place. If there is always a drug available to mask the condition lets keep partaking in destructive behavior such as overeating, drinking booze or eating poisonous crap.

I think you're taking away the primary disincentive. I also think we could do more in terms of public education (not schools in this case but things like PSAs, outreach programs, etc) to get people to make better choices.

At the end of the day, though all social animals end up having to carry a few slackers in the pack, herd, flock, what-have-you. It sucks but it is pretty much inevitable.