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7 Days fasting. Zero calories for 168 hours. HGP's short log

I heard that when running a marathon, they get into ketosis by mile 10 -or something (?) . Some getting hallucinations when fat burning starts. No source to cite here, just heard about it.
 
hairygrandpa said:
I heard that when running a marathon, they get into ketosis by mile 10 -or something (?) . Some getting hallucinations when fat burning starts. No source to cite here, just heard about it.
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Not sure about that with lots using gels and such now. I did know a guy that was an ultramarathoner and would hallucinate and piss/**** himself. He would carry footlong subs in his water bottle pouches he said it was about having energy sources . Crazy ****. Running long distances is really unhealthy actually. People get a huge high from it and feel accomplished....hence the “sport”
 
THOR 70 said:
Not sure about that with lots using gels and such now. I did know a guy that was an ultramarathoner and would hallucinate and piss/**** himself. He would carry footlong subs in his water bottle pouches he said it was about having energy sources . Crazy ****. Running long distances is really unhealthy actually. People get a huge high from it and feel accomplished....hence the “sport”
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Umm, that and one literally is competing against other people and onesself, hence the "sport".

But, you are hearing this from an ultramarathoner (who isn't afraid of the squat rack)
 
scherbs said:
Umm, that and one literally is competing against other people and onesself, hence the "sport".

But, you are hearing this from an ultramarathoner (who isn't afraid of the squat rack)
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Look who showed up! :)

I bet if we start talking about midget porn, a midget shows up. :)

Just kidding!
 
Lol imagine how much fat I would burn running in a fasted state....? Or would that lead to fat retention because my body believes a famine is coming?
 
manifesto said:
Lol imagine how much fat I would burn running in a fasted state....? Or would that lead to fat retention because my body believes a famine is coming?
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We have to ask Spurfy. He said that any hard activity while fasting is detrimental. I guess, your body will use amino acids (protein) from your upper body to repair and fuel your legs while running.
 
No bueno
 
Spurfy what about an early morning run..4-6 miles followed by a fast until later after noon...then a couple good size meals...?
 
I was thinking about snorting a line of melted margarine preworkout
 
Yeah, I think I can tough it out. And, my goal is to only eat enough carbs to fuel performance...to avoid overflowing glycogen stores
 
manifesto said:
Yeah, I think I can tough it out. And, my goal is to only eat enough carbs to fuel performance...to avoid overflowing glycogen stores
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Just keep your pace slow enough to avoid going anaerobic-going back to HGP's initial musings on running and keto. I've never gone appreciably Keto in a marathon (Ultras are a different story) because I run them too fast.
Take it from the midget :)
 
btothefman said:
Taking it through the anus may hit you harder
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Yes, I believe this method is called "greasing the groove." Thanks for reminding me.
 
scherbs said:
Just keep your pace slow enough to avoid going anaerobic-going back to HGP's initial musings on running and keto. I've never gone appreciably Keto in a marathon (Ultras are a different story) because I run them too fast.
Take it from the midget :)
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I'm just wondering if the fasted runs could be safely pushed into an anaerobic state if the subject were to carb load the night before...? Then fast after the run, thus depleting glycogen further, and reaping the benefits of the intermittent fast.
 
Spurfy said:
He would burn lots of fat, and lots of muscle to go along with it.
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If he is in ketosis, this isn't exactly true. I don't think he would burn much protein for energy in that case. The fact is that the body would be geared toward burning fat, so in order to burn protein for atp it would need to break down the muscle and either burn it very very inefficiently (which means not much would get burned) or it would have to convert it to fat for ATP use - which would be equally as inefficient. Unless he is sub 10% bodyfat, going through all that makes little sense. Most of the amino acid burn wouldn't be for energy, it would be for metabolic processes; and EAA's would likely alleviate this...although the truth lies somewhere in between "burn lots of muscle" and "Just need a few EAA's". You may need to ingest a good amount of EAAs and this could maybe knock you out of the fasting state.

The real problem, IMO, is that he wouldn't burn "lots of fat". I mean, if he runs 6 miles that may be 700 calories for most people....or about 80 grams of fat...Just over 1/6 of a pound. Going through all that pain and suffering to lose a pound a week seems inefficient in itself when you could just avoid the wear and tear on your body and not eat.

Of course, we're talking about fasting...but at some point you have to accept the limits. Low caloric intake with high levels of exercise will be brutal and eventually cause uncontrollable cravings from a drop in leptin (and lower leptin = less resistance to muscle loss to your point). I have done it, and it isn't "will power". It's survival, it's animal instinct. When you start waking up and the moment your eyes open you want a donut and it is irresistable, you know you've gone too far.

manifesto said:
Yeah, I think I can tough it out. And, my goal is to only eat enough carbs to fuel performance...to avoid overflowing glycogen stores
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manifesto said:
I'm just wondering if the fasted runs could be safely pushed into an anaerobic state if the subject were to carb load the night before...? Then fast after the run, thus depleting glycogen further, and reaping the benefits of the intermittent fast.
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If your muscles have glycogen in them, and you are metabolically healthy, you will burn the glycogen first and see an increase in performance. The problem is, in a fasted or keto state, metabolically healthy isn't exactly a proper expectation. In these states your body is geared toward lipid conversion to ATP and this can hinder carb to ATP conversion.
MrKleen73 was kind enough to give me some information on carb back loading and there is some interesting stuff in there in regard to this, but I have not read through it all yet. But I think one distinction that MrKleen has pointed out - once a muscle stores glycogen it burns it. It doesn't let it go...or at least not in a normal situation. So if you can eat carbs and get them into your muslces; they will be there for fuel.

The other issue MAYBE, is that you will increase insulin sensitivity across the board if you're fasting otherwise and you haven't done intense exercise prior to your carb load - which may mean you cannot just fill muscle glucose, you will see some fat accumulation along with it as well. It isn't necessarily like you need 300 grams of carbs to fill your muscle so the first 300 grams you eat goes toward that and then you start filling fat stores. Muscles that are depleted may get precedent, but what sense does it make to use 300 grams of carbs for quick burning when you've been fasted for 2 weeks? Your body is going to be smarter than that.
 
Stay away from sucralose while water fasting, as that will take you out of the fasted state. Sucralose spikes insulin.
 
THOR 70 said:
Good to know! What about a little stevia? Or xylitol for that matter
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Stevia is supposed to be fasting safe, but some people do report lower ketone levels after using; same with erythritol. Xylitol should be safe. However, better would be green tea and black coffee with nothing added.
 
ValiantThor08 said:
Stay away from sucralose while water fasting, as that will take you out of the fasted state. Sucralose spikes insulin.
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I could be wrong here but I am pretty sure this was disproven. Sucralose by itself does not increase insulin spikes, however if taken with sugar or other carbohydrate it can increase the size of the insulin spike, but needs the digestible carbs alongside of that for that. It has been a good 2 years or more since i read that so other studies may have taken place since.
 
MrKleen73 said:
I could be wrong here but I am pretty sure this was disproven. Sucralose by itself does not increase insulin spikes, however if taken with sugar or other carbohydrate it can increase the size of the insulin spike, but needs the digestible carbs alongside of that for that. It has been a good 2 years or more since i read that so other studies may have taken place since.
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ValiantThor08 said:
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Yes exactly, that says exactly what I just said... It increases the insulin response when taken with other carbohydrates. It does not release insulin on it's own, and does not raise blood sugar. You specifically said not to use it while fasting because it would break the fast, and cause an insulin spike. However it can not do that. It can increase the insulin spike of the surrounding meal, but when fasting there is no surrounding meal for it to use t spike insulin levels.
 
MrKleen73 said:
Yes exactly, that says exactly what I just said... It increases the insulin response when taken with other carbohydrates. It does not release insulin on it's own, and does not raise blood sugar. You specifically said not to use it while fasting because it would break the fast, and cause an insulin spike. However it can not do that. It can increase the insulin spike of the surrounding meal, but when fasting there is no surrounding meal for it to use t spike insulin levels.
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Thanks for the correction! Definitely misread. Good to know sucralose may not raise insulin by itself since it is in most pre workouts.
 
ValiantThor08 said:
Thanks for the correction! Definitely misread. Good to know sucralose may not raise insulin by itself since it is in most pre workouts.
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No problem at all. I had to go read it anyway to make sure. We are learning things so quickly now that what we "knew" to be true even a year or two ago could easily be in question or heavily contended against by many in the scientific community. Plus so many things that are so similar, and easily bleed into one another that you have to keep an eye on specificity to make sure you are still dealing with a situation that the scenario applies to or not.

Every once in a while I put my own foot in my mouth, and thought this might have been one of those times as well.
 
Spurfy said:
I still wouldn't consume sucralose. Recent study data demonstrate that it is indeed metabolized into two compounds that are both fat soluble and have unknown effects in humans. The target organs/tissues for these effects would likely be: liver, kidneys, brain, and adipose tissue.

Research* has already demonstrated that these metabolites accumulate in adipose tissue, at least in rats, which is a hallmark of toxic sequestration.

No thanks, I'll pass.


*Invalid Link Removed
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I was going to mention that there are some other issues besides the blood sugar or insulin that could cause some other issues but decided to try to keep it short. :D
 
Spurfy said:
Yes it is.



I said nothing about burning protein for energy -- this was your incorrect assumption that I was referring to gluconeogenic fuel.

In this context he's referring to running during a prolonged fast. Running damages muscles* which would require amino acids to repair. Where are these amino acids going to come from if he's eating nothing? Other muscles. Is this transfer of amino acids 100% efficient? No.

Result? Net loss of muscle.

I was being a bit hyperbolic when I said "lots", but my point remains the same.

Bottom line: Brisk walking is the only exercise which should be considered acceptable during any prolonged fasting. I've repeated this ad nauseum and I'm not going to repeat myself again.


* This is not even considering the microtrauma to bones from running, which would also require calcium and phosphorous from other bones to repair.
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Ok, sorry to put you off. Ironically, I would still say to avoid intense exercise - just for other reasons. Your logic could just as easily be applied to fasting itself - since living and breathing requires amino acids, where do they come from when you're fasting? Muscles. Fasting = muscle loss.

Accept, it's not quite that simplistic.

And yes, my assumption that you said "lots" meant that you were making a statement meaning "to a large degree" or "a large amount". The bottom line is, as a faster you've already accepted that you are going to forgo the 0.8 g/kg that your body needs at a basal rage per day....but you used the term "lots" to apply to the maybe 0.2-0.5 g/kg that a long distance runner may need in addition to that. You're probably talking, by my calculations, about 1.3 pounds of muscle lost per month for someone who runs 6 miles a day, every day.

The only way to get "lots of muscle" burned would be through conversion to energy....and gluconeogenesis is just one way to do that, a more efficient way, but no very effective during a fast.

So, I'm not saying you're "wrong" - just questioning your logic and degree where you accept fasting, accept walking, but don't accept running or any other exercise and make an absolute statement. If anything, your logic has been contrary to your conclusions.

So, yeah, no need to repeat it....saying it again won't make it true.
 
ValiantThor08 said:
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MrKleen73 said:
Yes exactly, that says exactly what I just said... It increases the insulin response when taken with other carbohydrates. It does not release insulin on it's own, and does not raise blood sugar. You specifically said not to use it while fasting because it would break the fast, and cause an insulin spike. However it can not do that. It can increase the insulin spike of the surrounding meal, but when fasting there is no surrounding meal for it to use t spike insulin levels.
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I've seen those studies, but never really thought it through. Based on that, it looks like sucrolose doesn't cause insulin release, rather it inhibits insulin function - which is not how I've heard people talk about it before. So, you take it with sugar and the sugar hits your blood stream, you release insuline, but the sucrolose inhibits it - so the insulin doesn't work to lower blood sugar, and your body has to release more to get the job done. This makes sucrolose not so bad in a fasted situation (at least on those terms) - but you may want to think before you wash a piece of cake or a candy bar down with diet soda.
 
Spurfy said:
1. Amino acids are only *required* for hormone, neurotransmitter, DNA, and protein synthesis.
2. Amino acids needed during a prolonged fasted state, where protein synthesis is very low and turnover of hormones and neurotransmitters are greatly reduced, are very low.
3. Autophagy can provide amino acids for protein synthesis -- proteins in damaged and diseased tissues and cells are broken down into amino acids
4. Adipose tissue contains BCAAs* which are released into circulation
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I think you are missing the point though, you need amino acids just for living, as you point out and I agree with above. I also agree that these needs are reduced during fasting, for a number of reasons. Fjnally, autophagy likely plays a roll,

But you still have to accept that you have protein requirements and fasting does not meet these....so you could apply your running logic to fasting itself. And if it is ok for fasting, where is the limit?

You speculated that it would cause lots of muscle loss, stated as if it was fact, and the logic to back that up is pretty weak is all I am pointing out. But that is OK, because it is an opportunity to think for all of us and speculation has opened a pretty thought provoking debate regardless.

Also, I don't disagree with much of what you are saying - including that running while fasting isn't a good idea. I am just debating whether the theory that loss of muscle mass running while fasted is really supported.

The BCAA comment was good - I didn't know that, and I love the link you provided, really great find. But I interpret it a little differently than you have...see below.


Spurfy said:
We know that there is some N excretion during fasting, but it has not been demonstrated that this loss is exclusively from skeletal muscle.
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It could be organs, which would be worse, right?

Spurfy said:
I refuse to engage in any further speculation on this. If a person doing a prolonged fast wants to run, have at it, but you'll never hear me condone this.
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Well, you have speculated that running while fasted will cause lots of muscle loss, and then further speculated that walking is acceptable while fasting, and then further speculated that walking is the ONLY acceptable form of exercise while fasted.

I am questioning it, and suddenly the speculation stops? What does that imply?


Spurfy said:
..until the moment that lactate threshold is crossed.



It's based on my over 10 years of fasting experience, my understanding of fasting physiology, as well as supervising the fasts of others. Could I be wrong? Certainly.

Still, in my experience the people who fail almost inevitably fail for one of two reasons:

1. They allow themselves to fantasize about food
2.They engage in vigorous exercise


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I am going to leave the lactate threshold thing alone, just because it will open up a can of worms that will get us in the mud.

I WILL agree with your 10 years of experience here - I am not condoning running. I am against it. I would have a small twist on 2 - they engage in too much exercise.

And to your point, if you are doing low intensity exercise and fasting, you can have a lot more of it than if you do high intensity exercise. In fact...high intensity exercise should be very breif if it is done.

On the same hand, hours of low intensity exercise will lead to similar problems.

Still, most people refuse to keep their exercise hard and breif so your standard of low intensity for longer will likely have higher compliance in most people.

I just don't think muscle loss is a major concern. Compliance, leptin drops, etc. are bigger factors. And yes, over training is a factor that is likely enhanced in fasting.

As to the BCAA study, again, great find. I am reading it a bit differently. It is actually discussing how fat cells are for more than storing lipids and have been shown to be a major part of our endocrine system. What they seem to have found isn't that fat stores BCAAs, but that it breaks it down. Healthy fat cells break down BCAAs. Obese and insulin resistant patients have impaired fat cells whoch don't break down BCAAs as readily. So it isn't that they release BCAAs inti the blood, it is that when they are healthy they remove BCAAs from the blood. This seems to be interesting in light of all the BCAA and insulin research that is out there.
 
Spurfy said:
1. Amino acids are only *required* for hormone, neurotransmitter, DNA, and protein synthesis.
2. Amino acids needed during a prolonged fasted state, where protein synthesis is very low and turnover of hormones and neurotransmitters are greatly reduced, are very low.
3. Autophagy can provide amino acids for protein synthesis -- proteins in damaged and diseased tissues and cells are broken down into amino acids
4. Adipose tissue contains BCAAs* which are released into circulation



We know that there is some N excretion during fasting, but it has not been demonstrated that this loss is exclusively from skeletal muscle.



I refuse to engage in any further speculation on this. If a person doing a prolonged fast wants to run, have at it, but you'll never hear me condone this.



...until the moment that lactate threshold is crossed.



It's based on my over 10 years of fasting experience, my understanding of fasting physiology, as well as supervising the fasts of others. Could I be wrong? Certainly.

Still, in my experience the people who fail almost inevitably fail for one of two reasons:

1. They allow themselves to fantasize about food
2.They engage in vigorous exercise


* Invalid Link Removed
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I’m getting into this fasting thing but do have a question on ‘vigerous exetcise’ and whether wanking counts? I’m strong willed enough to do most things but 7 days without releasing the ole steam valve is asking for trouble......
 
Whisky said:
I’m getting into this fasting thing but do have a question on ‘vigerous exetcise’ and whether wanking counts? I’m strong willed enough to do most things but 7 days without releasing the ole steam valve is asking for trouble......
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I have to do it everyday, I am taking a new supplement that says "Take Two Every Morning Upon Wanking"
 
Whisky said:
I’m getting into this fasting thing but do have a question on ‘vigerous exetcise’ and whether wanking counts? I’m strong willed enough to do most things but 7 days without releasing the ole steam valve is asking for trouble......
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Unless your version is a lot more dramatic and physical than mine I’m gonna say you’re fine haha.
 
Can I get a TL/Dr pic reference yesterday I thought about this thread when I woke up and popped ephedrine, caffeine, and yohimbine. I thought maybe I should try fasting. 10 minutes later my stomach was growling, I couldn't do it. Maybe eventually when I revert back to keto-ish dieting I can give it a shot. You have a lot more willpower than I do.
 
Whisky said:
I’m getting into this fasting thing but do have a question on ‘vigerous exetcise’ and whether wanking counts? I’m strong willed enough to do most things but 7 days without releasing the ole steam valve is asking for trouble......
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I'm not a Dr. but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express lastnight, and if you want to lose serious weight. You should wank it twice a day along with a 7 day fast.
 
DemntedCowboy said:
I'm not a Dr. but I did stay in a Holiday Inn Express lastnight, and if you want to lose serious weight. You should wank it twice a day along with a 7 day fast.
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For best fat burn -and for balanced arm muscle gains, he should use only the index fingers of both hands, use of thumbs is forbidden. Expert wankers use both pinky fingers.
 
Whisky said:
I’m getting into this fasting thing but do have a question on ‘vigerous exetcise’ and whether wanking counts? I’m strong willed enough to do most things but 7 days without releasing the ole steam valve is asking for trouble......
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Be careful of hand calluses as I've heard they can cause rips on the skin, and stay away from self prostate stimulation as I've also heard it can cause unwelcome pumps and cramping.
 
btothefman said:
Be careful of hand calluses as I've heard they can cause rips on the skin, and stay away from self prostate stimulation as I've also heard it can cause unwelcome pumps and cramping.
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It’s hard enough pinning glutes, not sure I’m flexible enough for the ole pokey bum wank....

It was the word vigorous that made me think it might be boardline, I’ve been known to get a sweat on for sure, especially if it’s a danger wank (on a train or elevator between floors etc).....
 
Whisky said:
It’s hard enough pinning glutes, not sure I’m flexible enough for the ole pokey bum wank....

It was the word vigorous that made me think it might be boardline, I’ve been known to get a sweat on for sure, especially if it’s a danger wank (on a train or elevator between floors etc).....
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ON AN ELEVATOR BETWEEN FLOORS?! ?
 
Whisky said:
I’m getting into this fasting thing but do have a question on ‘vigerous exetcise’ and whether wanking counts? I’m strong willed enough to do most things but 7 days without releasing the ole steam valve is asking for trouble......
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Um...get someone else to do it for you. Just tell them you would, but it's for the GAINZ!
 
Spurfy said:
Maybe it’s the Asperger’s, but I do not find masturbartion the least bit enjoyable. Vanilla sex? Dirty sex? Filthy sex? Absolutely.

My thinking is: Why satisfy a sexual urge all alone when I can control it, let it build, and then use the same urge as fuel to apply myself to get it satisfied by an attractive woman?

Masturbation is boring. And watching porn where a guy is banging a girl is about the most beta male thing you can do.
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Spurfy said:
I didn’t expect to get any likes with that one...
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Thing is, when you married for 28 years, you could "built up" the urge. Only the: "getting satisfied by a attractive women" later, would be hard to do, unless :
-its your birthday = BJ time
-you sedate your wife and put her a mask on, probably wrapping her whole body with duct tape, if varicose veins are too visible.
 
THOR 70 said:
*cancels pornhub premium account*
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Being worried about someone thinking you are beta is the most beta thing you can do.


lol, don't worry bro. You do whatever the heck you want.
 
Spurfy said:
Good point.

I’m sad that I don’t get to see my son every day, but I’m very happy that I’m no longer married and never ever will be again. Marriage just doesn’t suit me — I’m too stubborn, too argumentative, and too independent, and seeing a woman cry (especially over some dumb sh*t) does not engender the least bit of compassion from me unless she’s grieving a death, which really seems to make them furious.

“No princess, your cooked-up tears will not save you from losing this argument.”

No offense to married people. I’m genuinely envious of people who can make it work. I tried, I really did.
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You know, you raise a lot of good points. But you are supposed to identify as a b1tch and none of this would be a problem. lol
 
HIT4ME said:
Being worried about someone thinking you are beta is the most beta thing you can do.


lol, don't worry bro. You do whatever the heck you want.
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Lol. I don’t give a damn, just trying to be funny. I will judge someone that pays for porn tho lol
 
THOR 70 said:
Lol. I don’t give a damn, just trying to be funny. I will judge someone that pays for porn tho lol
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lol. I know...just trying to be funny too...I have a weird sense of humor. Or I am just not funny.
 
Been married for 30 years and still In Love, I'm a lucky guy !!
 
Rocket3015 said:
Been married for 30 years and still In Love, I'm a lucky guy !!
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14 years and going strong here. Of course I out kicked my coverage. My wife is way outta my league. She is a baddy with a fatty. So I don’t want to screw it up. I couldn’t do better the next go round
 
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