Smont
Legend
I 100% understand, most of the ppl trying these methods are doing it with orals, do you understand drug half life. How many orals stay in ur system that long. Save your fake smart guy **** for some1 else buddy
Clomid during cycle
- Thread starter RickyBlobby
- Start date
The Express 42
Well-known member
Peanutbutterj
Member
Dude, all he asked for was bloodwork ( in a polite way at that); no need for name calling just cause someone wants proof/disagrees with your point of view.
We should all be able to discuss/disagree without the need of being rude
Smont
Legend
When ppl act like that it's usually 1 of 2 things, either there just a miserable prick or full of **** so they gotta go in defense mode.
Spurfy
Active member
It's A.
Jinsun
Well-known member
If all the receptors are saturated and absolutely not a single e2 molecule can "act" then wouldn't that be like having zero e2? Wouldn't that bring all the negatives of having zero e2? tnx!
Spurfy
Active member
No. SERMs activate ER-b -- the "good" estrogen receptor, while blocking ER-a -- the "bad" one. This is the "S" of SERM.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
I've noticed less bloat since taking clomid (I am jump starting my system while on TRT---I do it every few months just incase I have to come off one day......25mg/ day for 4-6 weeks). AND I notice my nips are less puffy and don't itch. AI like effect.Just an observation
Spurfy
Active member
I notice the same. Any sort of bloat is greatly diminished, especially in combination with low-dose Var.
Jinsun
Well-known member
Great, tnx
it seems like we have some reading to do on alpha and beta er receptors.From wiki:
"ERα plays a role in the physiological development and function of a variety of organ systems to varying degrees, including the reproductive, central nervous, skeletal, and cardiovascular systems.[11] Accordingly, ERα is widely expressed throughout the body, including the uterus and ovary, male reproductive organs, mammary gland, bone, heart, hypothalamus, pituitary gland, liver, lung, kidney, spleen, and adipose tissue."
That's a lot of "stuff". Surely affecting all of this for the duration of the whole cycle, plus some time after cycle, can't be without sides?
rtmilburn
Well-known member
Ok this was funny
rtmilburn
Well-known member
There are countless studies on serms, with patients being on them for YEARS without any major side effects. Matter of fact the cancer patient taking them, usually get more positive outcomes from taking them then negatives. Nolvadex is proven to help with type 2 diabetes, I want to say torem is proven to reduce LDL, plus all them have pro fertility benefits.Great, tnx
From wiki:
"ERα plays a role in the physiological development and function of a variety of organ systems to varying degrees, including the reproductive, central nervous, skeletal, and cardiovascular systems.[11] Accordingly, ERα is widely expressed throughout the body, including the uterus and ovary, male reproductive organs, mammary gland, bone, heart, hypothalamus, pituitary gland, liver, lung, kidney, spleen, and adipose tissue."
That's a lot of "stuff". Surely affecting all of this for the duration of the whole cycle, plus some time after cycle, can't be without sides?
It modulates the receptor not just blocks estrogen from binding. Their role is much more complicated than they are painted out to be. Which is why it's nice to have Spurfy since he clearly has deep understanding of how serms work, and I don't mean this sarcasticly at all.
One thing I would be concerned with is possible receptor down regulations, in the hypothalamus, with clomid. No others seems to have this issue and clomid is still a may or may not on this.
Smont
Legend
I agree
TheBigJS
Member
Great, tnx
Plenty of men take Clomid for TRT long term.
Male doses are very low, even lower when you consider our size.
A cycle really isnt that long.
Not sure, just thinking out loud really.
Someone who is shutdown needs to try this and get bloods done...I might
Jinsun
Well-known member
I still haven't had the time to research this, so pardon my ignorance, but if serms are so great why hasn't this protocol been used before, why isn't it a staple? If you can stimulate your hypothalamus with a low dose of serm, to produce LH and FSH during a 12 week cycle, one doesn't need hcg and also might not need a T base?
It's just a healthy amount of scepticism before I would commit to this... I would like to discuss, if you're up to it, possible short and long term sides and weight them against benefits and then compare to normal cycle's with the use of hcg.
Jinsun
Well-known member
I still haven't had the time to research this, so pardon my ignorance, but if serms are so great why hasn't this protocol been used before, why isn't it a staple? If you can stimulate your hypothalamus with a low dose of serm, to produce LH and FSH during a 12 week cycle, one doesn't need hcg and also might not need a T base?
It's just a healthy amount of scepticism before I would commit to this... I would like to discuss, if you're up to it, possible short and long term sides and weight them against benefits and then compare to normal cycle's with the use of hcg.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
I understand the skepticism.... I do.... I was skeptical, but in my head it made sense.
So I did research, a lot of it, and found many people had found success, even a couple pros who recommend it.
So I tried it myself. Test level 450 during a dbol/ primo run in only 25mg clomid (could’ve bumped up to 50mg)
Then you have spurfy who has also verified its effectiveness via blood work, and several other members who mentioned their success. As far as I k ow no one who has given it a shot has come back saying it didn’t work for them.
At this point with this much evidence I think if you cared at all about keeping your HTPA up and running on cycle you would at least TRY it out, spend your little 20-30 bucks on a bottle of clomid or torem and report back with your results.
So I did research, a lot of it, and found many people had found success, even a couple pros who recommend it.
So I tried it myself. Test level 450 during a dbol/ primo run in only 25mg clomid (could’ve bumped up to 50mg)
Then you have spurfy who has also verified its effectiveness via blood work, and several other members who mentioned their success. As far as I k ow no one who has given it a shot has come back saying it didn’t work for them.
At this point with this much evidence I think if you cared at all about keeping your HTPA up and running on cycle you would at least TRY it out, spend your little 20-30 bucks on a bottle of clomid or torem and report back with your results.
Jinsun
Well-known member
I've got primo e arriving next week. I was going to do a short 8 week cutting cycle with only 200mg/week. I suppose this dose dosn't shutdown or suppress to any major degree anyway, but I might try adding tamox to the cycle or up the primo to 400 and add tamo just to experiment. But just for keeping mass on a cut I don't need 400...
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
I was on 400 primo 50 dbol..... and 25mg clomid was enough to keep things up and running to a decent degree.
I would say on 200 primo a low-moderate dose of torem would work. Might be disappointed though, primo is usuallly not thought to really kick in till 6-8 weeks and 200mg is low for primo.
That said go for it and see how you like it. It will suppress you though, so it would be wise to run the SERM in my opinion. No sense getting low T for a couple weeks and taking the risk of adding back some fat. Plus keeping T normal, on top of the primo, will only benefit your cut.
Jinsun
Well-known member
Yeah I know it's weak, but for keeping mass it should be enough don't u think? I'm not expecting to recomp on only 200 primo, just want to lose the last 5 pounds without losing mm. Now if 200 will do absolutely nothing in that regard then 400 it is. I just don't have any first hand experience with it so I can't say. I'm not that big so 200 might be enough for me, that's my thinking...
Regarding suppression I also don't know what to expect. I have test prop and cyp at hand if it gets to rough. First I would like to see how much primo suppresses on it's own, I'll do labs every 2 weeks. Then I can add tamox. Or do you think the results would be different if I would add tamox from the start?
Also if 25mg of clomid was enough for primo and dbol, I'm thinking 10mg tamox ed or eod?
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Trest I’m not sure. It’s pretty suppressive, I assume SERMS would still maintain some level of HTPA function. Start at a moderate dosage, if you notice ball shrinkage bump it up slowly to the max recommended (50mg clomid, not sure on torem, maybe spurfy can chime in on that.)
I would want to take every measure possible to maintain HTPA function on trest because it shuts you down completely and recovery is a bitch. Probably 1.5-2 month PCT. I don’t think you wanna go that long with low T.
nubioso
Active member
Trest or tren. I'm finishing up month 2 of PCT and I'm still not back to normal from an 8 week tren run.
Going to give running torem a try during my next cycle to see how it helps with recovery. Seems like the consensus is mixed in whether or not it works, but I'm just going to try it out for myself and see.
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Pay attention. Everyone who tried it............... will attest that it works. The naysayers are all people who have NOT tried it.
The Express 42
Well-known member
Going to try a torem, rad140 and r andro cycle within the next month with bloods at the end of week 4
Ricky10
Well-known member
From a different perspective of "gonad protection" while on cycle....this study on Royal Jelly is quite interesting. Royal Jelly happens to be in in OL K1NGSBLOOD....yet not at the recommended 1 gram dose/day per this study.
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Taurine, Vitamin C, and Vitmin E, are is also supposed to be beneficial (these links can be found within the above link)
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Taurine, Vitamin C, and Vitmin E, are is also supposed to be beneficial (these links can be found within the above link)
Spurfy
Active member
Yes, but don't run nolva, it's poison. Clomid or torem should be used instead.
Jinsun
Well-known member
So funny how everybody has it's own opinion on serms
I've read that clomid suppresses pituitary's sensitivity to gnrh and nolva doesn't. Wouldn't this make tamox better suited for longer use of a serm?CatSnake
Well-known member
I know several people who have tried this with nolva, tore and clomid and failed to maintian LH and FSH levels on cycle.
not saying it might not work for somebody or in a certain circumstance, but I've also never seen any real clinical data showing it works, either.
plenty of people complain about side effects of SERMs, so to suggest running them on cycle instead of HCG is more than a little counterintuitive.
Jinsun
Well-known member
I've read a statement in an article. Didn't go and look for the actual study it was cyting. But now I have by your request and I sae the study was done in vitro so take the findings with a grain of salt.
This is the study: Invalid Link Removed
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Were they on crazy high doses of AAS? Were they taking enough SERM? In my research and personal experience there are at least 10 people that can attest to SERMS workin on cycle. This is the first I have heard where it didn't work. Odd.
CatSnake
Well-known member
SERMs raise E2, so no, they don't lower estrogen on cycle.
CatSnake
Well-known member
no, regular cycles.... even TRT doses.
it's hard for people here to say it "works," without pre, during and post cycle bloodwork, too. an actual pharm gear, SERMs, etc....
an easy check would be to look at LH, FSH and total test levels during those times.... until enough guys post that kind of labwork, it's a hard theory to prove.
I argued this a couple years back with Spurfy until we were both blue in the face.... I was pretty sure I had made my point clear then. I don't really care to revisit the whole debate, as I think it's kinda pointless....
it's not like we're eliminating PCT here.... everybody still takes the SERM post-cycle.... they just take it on-cycle, as well.
CatSnake
Well-known member
So funny how everybody has it's own opinion on serms
there's one study that compares Clomid to Nolva, but they use a megadose of clomd (150 mg/day) and normal dose of nolva (20 mg/day). pretty much any other study of clomid used 25 mg, so that was an odd choice...
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RickyBlobby
Well-known member
I understand your skepticism. But 10 weeks into a cycle and still having my test level at 450 on only 25mg of clomid tells me my LH and FSH was still being produced in significant quantity. Spurfy gets bloodwork done and his LH and FSH are always in range. I posted a study a few pages back showing research data proving clomid maintains testiculat function (on TRT). My cycle was moderate, 50mg dbol and 400mg primo and clomid still worked at that androgen level.
CatSnake
Well-known member
eh, as far as I know, Spurfy never ever posted his bloodwork... at least not when I had this argument with him before.
what were your pre-cycle testosterone/FSH/LH levels? what would it have been without the clomid? do you see where I'm going with this? if you really wanna prove the theory, do the same cycle without the clomid... as it is now, you're proving nothing. total HPTA suppression rarely occurs on cycle, and primo is notoriously easy on the HPTA anyway....
btw, why the heck did you choose that cycle? kind of an odd combo....
CatSnake
Well-known member
also, can you post the link of that study you mentioned again?
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
I don’t think spurfy made it up, I k ow I certainly didn’t. And 50mg dbol is not mild. 10 weeks will **** you down without the primo. Many report maintained testicular size too. That tells you it’s working.
Primo + dbol was Arnold’s preferred cycle. So I wanted to give it a try. Felt awesome the whole Tim I believe dbol is similar to oral test, it 5a reduces and aromatises, gives your body all the required hormones. In my experience at least.
Jinsun
Well-known member
If dbol converts to dht and e2 and you had your own t from nolva then it's no wonder you felt great! Also you recovered easily and quickly. Sounds like a great cycle mate!
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Highly recommended. Dbol is awesome. Primo is Pricey thoughIf dbol converts to dht and e2 and you had your own t from nolva then it's no wonder you felt great! Also you recovered easily and quickly. Sounds like a great cycle mate!
RickyBlobby
Well-known member
Thanks for posting. This is proof that even in the presence of external testosterone it simulates LH and FSH. Another good report.