Do you need to cycle M-Test?
- Thread starter Shiznown
- Start date
sespress
Well-known member
My understanding is most of them don't increase test by the amount you might be hoping. I'm not familiar with mtest or some others ingredients but I'll bet it didn't get as high as if you were taking test and so the results won't be nearly as good. That being said I like some natty boosters, and for instance, diesel test hardcore says similar things on the bottle. I think the reasoning has more to do with you getting used to it (tolerance) and liver load and kidney load from processing all the ingredients.
Shiznown
Active member
I'm only hoping for an increase of about 250-300 and free test increase. I'm hoping it'll increase if only from lowering cortisol, which is at the edge of high normal.
Sacrifice
New member
Or with the cheap and affordable daily supplement of KSM-66 ASHWAGANDHA
sespress
Well-known member
Is that as effective? I'll admit I see it in OL product but I don't know enough about it
Sacrifice
New member
muscleupcrohn
Legend
For cortisol control? Ashwagandha is effective, and has many other benefits. Now, it's not something that's going to absolutely crush your cortisol, it's an adaptogen that optimizes your hormone balance, but I say that's a good thing in the vast majority of cases. KSM-66 is great, and 600mg/day is a very well tested and effective dose. For example, this study showed a 27.9% decrease in cortisol with ashwagandha compared to a 7.9% decrease with placebo.
Invalid Link Removed
Ashwagandha also has studies showing reduced stress/anxiety, improved body composition and endurance, improved cognition, etc. It's a great supplement, and has become a staple for many people here, myself included.
MidwestBeast
Legend
In general, aside from staples, you want to cycle most things -- test-boosting ingredients, included.
I've never run a product that was marketed simply as a natural test booster for an extended period of time; generally 8 weeks and then a break. I don't know that I ever ran one longer than that. Natural anabolics (MyoSynergy, BMP, etc.) are ones that I've run for extended periods of time, but those aren't marketed as test boosters.
I've never run a product that was marketed simply as a natural test booster for an extended period of time; generally 8 weeks and then a break. I don't know that I ever ran one longer than that. Natural anabolics (MyoSynergy, BMP, etc.) are ones that I've run for extended periods of time, but those aren't marketed as test boosters.
Shiznown
Active member
That doesn't really make sense to me. I mean, why would anyone even run a test booster, if it's only for 8 weeks? It's not like you'll build a lot of muscle in two month. If that's a case, it's a waste.
muscleupcrohn
Legend
Actually, ingredients in some test boosters, such as ashwagandha, have been shown to improve muscle mass and strength within 8 weeks (it's important to note that not all ingredients in test boosters work primarily simply by increasing testosterone). Additionally, many test boosters improve various aspects of quality of life, including reducing stress/anxiety, improving libido, etc, which is very attractive to many people, and could also indirectly lead to improved workouts and/or adherence to diet/training, leading to better results.
Shiznown
Active member
I know, that's why I want to take them, but having 4 weeks off would suck. A week is a different story. I've been taking Ashwaganda by itself for about 3 months.
booneman77
Legend
The major reason for cycling them is just because there's no data to say that their aren't any negative effects past that timeframe.
Should there be? Doubt it, but legally we can't say for certain and thus recommend cycling and breaks
Should there be? Doubt it, but legally we can't say for certain and thus recommend cycling and breaks
sespress
Well-known member
Right there's several moa's in a lot of these things. We had a discussion somewhere about this before I can't find the thread but basically some of the ingredients are gonna get you a "boost" but you'll still get "used to it" and need to cycle off. Besides it's tough on the body, any supplements can be and the more of them and the longer you're on them the rougher it will be.
But you'll still get a good effect, I took alphamax for a while and saw a reasonably good change in body composition after 2 bottles.
sespress
Well-known member
A single supplement like that you're probably OK, I don't want to recommends you do something that's gonna wreck your system though. Get a basic metabolic panel done to gauge things, a before and after, and if you can swing it private md labs you can get a hormone panel with that for like 70 bucks. It's worth the cash to make sure you're all good.
Shiznown
Active member
Already did and my test sits around 474. Keep in my I currently have a hiatal hernia and I've dealt with sinus breathing issues on and off. So, maybe I won't NEED any test boosters once I get better. I wish I could get my levels to around 700. Honestly my levels suck for my age. I can get panels done no problem. My primary doc has been good about that, but I have to wait months between each test due to insurance.
sespress
Well-known member
Sorry to hear, the hernia you're talking about is in the GI tract at the end of the esophagus right? And the sinus issues,. I'm not trying to be specifically critical but how will the test booster help? If you're trying to reboot the process clomid might be a good shot for a month. Maybe HCG, although I'm not certain when that's called for. I have heard they clomid can take a lot of folks b back up in the scale even after your done with it.
Shiznown
Active member
I figured a test booster would help simply by having herbs that lower stress on a daily basis, which I deal with a lot living with my grandmom since I was forced to move back. I need to sort of speed rush me getting healthy so that I can get into this medical program and move out in a year and a half. I was sort of looking at the test booster as preventative maintenance, so to speak. There is no way I can afford a doc that'll help with low-t until I complete my training, yet at the same time I'm worried having lowish T will interfere with my studying and general mood. Yes, at the end of the esophagus.
BennyMagoo79
Well-known member
So ur test actually went down after m test?
Sacrifice
New member
It was 11 months apart (so can't confirm MTEST was the cause), but I was on MTest for 1.5 bottles when the most recent bloods were drawn. Test down a little and SHBG is through the ****ing roof
I'm pretty bummed out.
BennyMagoo79
Well-known member
Hows ur diet atm?
Sacrifice
New member
Keto with IF on a slow cut
210LBS
Well-known member
I think people are expecting way too much out of M-Test. I like the product, but the early reviews were too stellar. Libido boost was noticeable for me, but doubt that has to do with test increase. Especially since I saw no difference in strength or size while on it.
I have to ask, have you ever used PHs or AAS? You're about 35ish so I guess you can expect test to decline year over year, however wondering if there are other factors contributing.
I have to ask, have you ever used PHs or AAS? You're about 35ish so I guess you can expect test to decline year over year, however wondering if there are other factors contributing.
Sacrifice
New member
No AAS/PH history - I posted the before and afters, so I had a slight decrease in total T, huge drop in free T and huge increase in SHBG
I also don't drink, smoke or do drugs
34 years old
210LBS
Well-known member
Well if you see an endocrinologist keep us posted on what they say. I'm sure you'd find a good amount of people on these boards with similar problems.
ws65
Member
I don't think anything in the M-Test "counteracts" each other. However, the Fadogia does need to be cycled, so the answer is yes, you need a break from M-Test but more specifically because of the Fadogia. I did like the M-Test run. I'm now on my first day of K1ng's Blood and honestly, I don't see anything in KB that needs to be cycled so that may become a staple for me.
BBiceps
Well-known member
The drop in test could also be from cutting weight, I know I drained my test levels one time when I went on a too extreme cut.
TommyTuffGuy
Well-known member
K1ngsblood was great, I'll be running probably 2 bottles of M-Test starting in a few days to compare.
warbird01
Well-known member
Nope. SNS is known for putting together quality products, we would never formulate a product that didn't make sense or "counteracted" each other!
Sacrifice
New member
This isn't me hating on MTest... I said I'd post the bloods and I did. I have no idea what caused the changes.
the huge boost in SHBG is the bigger head scratcher to me honestly. I thought nettle was specifically touted to bring that down?
The small drop in test isn't a big deal...the GIANT increase in SHBG is. IMO opinion at least
the huge boost in SHBG is the bigger head scratcher to me honestly. I thought nettle was specifically touted to bring that down?
The small drop in test isn't a big deal...the GIANT increase in SHBG is. IMO opinion at least
ws65
Member
You're right...this is a big head scratcher on this. There has to be something else going on. Calling mw1, booneman77, Misfit28 for thoughts on your issue.
Nac
Well-known member
But thats the thing, you have no idea what your SHBG was right before your run.
All the theories as to why it increased are pretty pointless....cos your befores date back a year lol
mw1
Sponsor
With the first labs taken almost a year ago its hard to use that as a baseline. It would be better if it was a yr or two before
Nac
Well-known member
I empathise. If it were me I know Id be tempted to hold the supp responsible too.
But, if we are being as objective and reasonable as possible, its also just as plausible that your SHBG was even higher going into your run....and m-test did in fact drop it down an amount.
Nac
Well-known member
As far as an on-going assessment, for sure.
But Im skeptical it will provide significant proof one way or the other as to your SHBG level prior to jumping on m-test (dunno if this is your intention anyway).
cheftepesh1
Well-known member
I personally. Cycle everything just so my body can reset. I would cycle every 2 months, but that's me
sns8778
Board Sponsor
I rarely ever post anymore but there were a few things in this thread that I wanted to address and that stood out to me.
Company recommendations on cycling can be confusing sometimes. Always keep in mind that from a brand perspective, if there are ingredients that haven't been researched past a certain period of time, or sometimes even if they have been, brands will recommend that people take breaks. That is a fairly standard practice in this industry from a liability standpoint.
Also, there is the long standing opinion of some people that it is simply good to switch things up from time to time to keep the body from getting used to things.
Oh, and think about it like this - most people don't use pre-workouts daily, they only use them on the days they train so there are breaks built into using these types of products. However, most of them still say to use for x amount of weeks and then take y amount of a break.
There are so many factors that go into how much of an increase anyone will have from anything that no one can tell anyone exact estimates, but I think you would be pleased with M-Test. You can look into the studies done on many of the ingredients and get an idea of what to expect. Regarding cortisol control, KSM-66 is a great ingredient for that as some have mentioned in this thread.
KSM-66 is a great ingredient and is included in M-Test at a dosage of 695 mg. per day.
See my above statement about brand recommendations and cycling. But also consider that's even Prohormone or AAS cycles are cycled and not ran continuously, so gains can be achieved in 8 to 12 weeks periods of time. And in the case of products like M-Test and the ingredients it contains, the gains may not be as great as with ph's or AAS cycles but you also don't have to worry about running a PCT or losing them like you do with ph's or AAS.
Very well said and excellent points. By improving other attributes in life, products that help increase testosterone and reduce cortisol can help in both direct and indirect ways. For example, a person that is less anxious and stressed and in a better mood is more likely to not miss workouts or meals, not binge eat, etc.
Well said on the moa's. And sometimes, even if things aren't rough on the body it is good to give them a break from time to time just to not let a tolerance build up and also even with ingredients where tolerance buildup isn't an issue, sometimes we all can get a nice motivation boost by going back on our favorite supp.
The thing with 'needing' test boosters is a personal decision. By medical definition, people falling into the 'normal' range don't need them, but the 'normal' range is such a large one that there are many people that fall into it that still have symptoms of low testosterone. Think on it like this, with a range that broad you can fall into the normal range but that doesn't mean your levels are optimal. Also, take someone for example that is 30 or 35 that falls into the 'normal' range but lived most of their life with higher levels and those levels are what they are used to; now that they decline, even though they may not be clinically low, that person may not feel as good as they once did and may want to get them back to where they were used to or better.
Everyone diets in different ways and finds that different diets affect them differently but I know from personal experience that my test levels drop pretty dramatically while on a keto diet. I found that out many years ago and is one of the reasons I will personally never do a keto diet again.
Mid 30's is definitely the typical age range for some people seeing some pretty moderate to dramatic hormone level changes (and other changes). I think it is definitely typical for changes to happen over the course of the year from when the initial blood work was done and it makes it to where the starting point isn't really reliable. I am not saying this because the results are unfavorable. Even if the blood work would have showed a huge increase in test, the point would still be the same in that so much could've changed since the initial blood work was done that it wouldn't be an accurate baseline to compare against.
M-Test wasn't a product that was just randomly thrown together so I don't think you'd find that to be the case. The ingredients and dosages in M-Test were carefully chosen to help work synergistically through different pathways to help increase natural testosterone levels. Many of the ingredients used in M-Test have clinical studies to support them and are used at the effective dosages shown in those studies.
Viron contains some excellent ingredients. As a matter of fact, it is a combination of Eurycoma Longifolia and Boron Citrate, both of which are already included in M-Test.
Amen to that. I have a medical condition that requires me to have blood work done much more frequently than I would like to so I get a first hand view at how much hormone levels really can fluctuate and mine are always somewhat lower when cutting and the reason I don't do the Keto regimen is because when I was younger my levels went so low on that that it scared my doctor. (That doesn't happen to everyone and I think the Keto diet is great for some people, but it definitely can happen).
Nettle has been shown in studies and is purchased daily in thousands of nutrition stores across the country and online for the purpose of reducing it. The issue here, like other people pointed out is that because the original labs were done so long ago that no one has any idea what your levels were before using it and if it did in fact bring them down, not change them at all, etc.
Agree completely. It's like debating something that the only answer to is that there is no answer because there is no baseline premise for the questions leading to the debate. Everything is hypothetical. And again, I'm not saying that because it would reflect negatively on M-Test. Even if someone posted labs from last Feb and then labs now and it showed a huge increase in test from being on M-Test for the last month and a half, they would be equally unreliable because the original labs are just from too long ago.
Couple of things that I noticed that I think are worth mentioning in regard to the labs:
- The original blood work from a year ago shows suboptimal levels of Vitamin D which can also lead to low testosterone. So, in addition to being another year older (not picking on you, I'm in mid 30's myself and it sucks for hormones changing haha) and experiencing the natural decline in testosterone levels that could be expected, having low Vitamin D could also be a factor. I didn't see them included in the new set of blood work, so it is something I would definitely get checked if I were you. I have to take prescription Vitamin D + 10,000 IU per day to keep my Vitamin D levels up so I know from experience it can be a factor.
- The new set of labs appears to be basically a hormone panel and on the front shows pricing and things for different drugs that would be commonly prescribed from an 'anti-aging' or 'rejuvenation' clinic (GHRP2, GHRP6, Sermorelin, Testosterone, HCG, etc.) along with pricing so if any of those things were taken during the last year since the original labs, it could definitely have influenced the results.
Company recommendations on cycling can be confusing sometimes. Always keep in mind that from a brand perspective, if there are ingredients that haven't been researched past a certain period of time, or sometimes even if they have been, brands will recommend that people take breaks. That is a fairly standard practice in this industry from a liability standpoint.
Also, there is the long standing opinion of some people that it is simply good to switch things up from time to time to keep the body from getting used to things.
Oh, and think about it like this - most people don't use pre-workouts daily, they only use them on the days they train so there are breaks built into using these types of products. However, most of them still say to use for x amount of weeks and then take y amount of a break.
There are so many factors that go into how much of an increase anyone will have from anything that no one can tell anyone exact estimates, but I think you would be pleased with M-Test. You can look into the studies done on many of the ingredients and get an idea of what to expect. Regarding cortisol control, KSM-66 is a great ingredient for that as some have mentioned in this thread.
KSM-66 is a great ingredient and is included in M-Test at a dosage of 695 mg. per day.
See my above statement about brand recommendations and cycling. But also consider that's even Prohormone or AAS cycles are cycled and not ran continuously, so gains can be achieved in 8 to 12 weeks periods of time. And in the case of products like M-Test and the ingredients it contains, the gains may not be as great as with ph's or AAS cycles but you also don't have to worry about running a PCT or losing them like you do with ph's or AAS.
Very well said and excellent points. By improving other attributes in life, products that help increase testosterone and reduce cortisol can help in both direct and indirect ways. For example, a person that is less anxious and stressed and in a better mood is more likely to not miss workouts or meals, not binge eat, etc.
Well said on the moa's. And sometimes, even if things aren't rough on the body it is good to give them a break from time to time just to not let a tolerance build up and also even with ingredients where tolerance buildup isn't an issue, sometimes we all can get a nice motivation boost by going back on our favorite supp.
The thing with 'needing' test boosters is a personal decision. By medical definition, people falling into the 'normal' range don't need them, but the 'normal' range is such a large one that there are many people that fall into it that still have symptoms of low testosterone. Think on it like this, with a range that broad you can fall into the normal range but that doesn't mean your levels are optimal. Also, take someone for example that is 30 or 35 that falls into the 'normal' range but lived most of their life with higher levels and those levels are what they are used to; now that they decline, even though they may not be clinically low, that person may not feel as good as they once did and may want to get them back to where they were used to or better.
Everyone diets in different ways and finds that different diets affect them differently but I know from personal experience that my test levels drop pretty dramatically while on a keto diet. I found that out many years ago and is one of the reasons I will personally never do a keto diet again.
Mid 30's is definitely the typical age range for some people seeing some pretty moderate to dramatic hormone level changes (and other changes). I think it is definitely typical for changes to happen over the course of the year from when the initial blood work was done and it makes it to where the starting point isn't really reliable. I am not saying this because the results are unfavorable. Even if the blood work would have showed a huge increase in test, the point would still be the same in that so much could've changed since the initial blood work was done that it wouldn't be an accurate baseline to compare against.
M-Test wasn't a product that was just randomly thrown together so I don't think you'd find that to be the case. The ingredients and dosages in M-Test were carefully chosen to help work synergistically through different pathways to help increase natural testosterone levels. Many of the ingredients used in M-Test have clinical studies to support them and are used at the effective dosages shown in those studies.
Viron contains some excellent ingredients. As a matter of fact, it is a combination of Eurycoma Longifolia and Boron Citrate, both of which are already included in M-Test.
Amen to that. I have a medical condition that requires me to have blood work done much more frequently than I would like to so I get a first hand view at how much hormone levels really can fluctuate and mine are always somewhat lower when cutting and the reason I don't do the Keto regimen is because when I was younger my levels went so low on that that it scared my doctor. (That doesn't happen to everyone and I think the Keto diet is great for some people, but it definitely can happen).
Nettle has been shown in studies and is purchased daily in thousands of nutrition stores across the country and online for the purpose of reducing it. The issue here, like other people pointed out is that because the original labs were done so long ago that no one has any idea what your levels were before using it and if it did in fact bring them down, not change them at all, etc.
Agree completely. It's like debating something that the only answer to is that there is no answer because there is no baseline premise for the questions leading to the debate. Everything is hypothetical. And again, I'm not saying that because it would reflect negatively on M-Test. Even if someone posted labs from last Feb and then labs now and it showed a huge increase in test from being on M-Test for the last month and a half, they would be equally unreliable because the original labs are just from too long ago.
Couple of things that I noticed that I think are worth mentioning in regard to the labs:
- The original blood work from a year ago shows suboptimal levels of Vitamin D which can also lead to low testosterone. So, in addition to being another year older (not picking on you, I'm in mid 30's myself and it sucks for hormones changing haha) and experiencing the natural decline in testosterone levels that could be expected, having low Vitamin D could also be a factor. I didn't see them included in the new set of blood work, so it is something I would definitely get checked if I were you. I have to take prescription Vitamin D + 10,000 IU per day to keep my Vitamin D levels up so I know from experience it can be a factor.
- The new set of labs appears to be basically a hormone panel and on the front shows pricing and things for different drugs that would be commonly prescribed from an 'anti-aging' or 'rejuvenation' clinic (GHRP2, GHRP6, Sermorelin, Testosterone, HCG, etc.) along with pricing so if any of those things were taken during the last year since the original labs, it could definitely have influenced the results.