Post Cycle Therapy: A User's Guide

YoungBodyBuil said:
Always doing deeds for the community.
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This is important info that everyone running cycles needs to know. There's a lot of good guys that have contributed to this thread as well, I've learned a few things as well.
 
Kiwigear said:
80 mg of nolva Jesus.. Women with breast cancer don't even have a dose near that
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People don't realize how strong nolva is.
 
Its not toxic.
 
No, it's not. Please stop spreading bs information from people who don't know how to interpret data.
 
Its ignorance such as yours that continue to strengthen the meathead stereotype.
 
Kiwigear said:
Lol OK oncologist
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Lol ok "bro"

They monitor the ast/alt ratio as they do with many cholesterol and blood pressure drugs due to outliers that had issues. We're talking 5-10 yrs of use with rare occurrences. In no way does that make a drug toxic. If that were the case by your definition Tylenol is 100x more toxic. Please get a clue.
 
Admin said:
Its not toxic.
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Of course Tamoxifene is toxi, is this a joke? This is a genotoxic first gen SERM and not some smarties.
That's also the reason 1) to use a second gen SERM, if possible (except Raloxifene, which has a teratogenic effect) and 2) do a proper PCT (if its necessary and when using it, do it RIGHT -> not eating 80mg of this stuff when even 20mg/ed works perfectly in men).
 
sanmarino said:
Of course Tamoxifene is toxi, is this a joke? This is a genotoxic first gen SERM and not some smarties.
That's also the reason 1) to use a second gen SERM, if possible (except Raloxifene, which has a teratogenic effect) and 2) do a proper PCT (if its necessary and when using it, do it RIGHT -> not eating 80mg of this stuff when even 20mg/ed works perfectly in men).
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Who the **** said they were smarties? From a clinical perspective, its NOT toxic. Its amazing how you throw around a word like that if AST/ALT levels are jumping through the roof like popping Halotestin. Woman takes this for YEARS and have zero problems and the only effects of liver toxicity or serious effects have been in women with pre-existing cancer and and increase in fatty liver which was easily reversed. Long term data show outliers, as with all drugs. Its not toxic for any man taking it for 6-8 weeks at reasonable doses. Its not even close.


Abstract

PURPOSE To review the preclinical and clinical data on the carcinogenic potential of tamoxifen.

DESIGN A MEDLINE search on the carcinogenicity of tamoxifen was conducted and the literature reviewed.

RESULTS Because tamoxifen has estrogen-like effects on some tissues, such as the human uterus, there has been concern that tamoxifen could promote endometrial cancers in women on chronic tamoxifen therapy. Observations in some randomized trials of adjuvant tamoxifen therapy are consistent with a small, but real, increased risk of endometrial cancer in women who take tamoxifen. Since increased endometrial cancer incidence has not been observed in all studies of chronic tamoxifen therapy, there may be an element of detection bias. Laboratory studies have demonstrated that tamoxifen is hepatocarcinogenic in laboratory rats, but not in other species. This carcinogenicity in rats has been linked to the formation of DNA adducts.

CONCLUSION The incidence of endometrial cancer is increased in women who take tamoxifen. The data suggest that tamoxifen might be a tumor promoter in human endometrium. However, on the basis of the number of tumors seen by endometrial sampling of tamoxifen-treated women, the impact of tamoxifen as a tumor promoter is small. Women on chronic tamoxifen therapy should have routine annual gynecologic examinations and receive endometrial sampling only in the event of uterine bleeding. Unlike the data in rats, there is no conclusive evidence to link tamoxifen with an increased rate of hepatocellular cancer in humans; the contrasting carcinogenic potential may be attributed to substantial interspecies differences in the metabolism of tamoxifen.
 
Admin said:
Who the **** said they were smarties? From a clinical perspective, its NOT toxic. Its amazing how you throw around a word like that if AST/ALT levels are jumping through the roof like popping Halotestin. Woman takes this for YEARS and have zero problems and the only effects of liver toxicity or serious effects have been in women with pre-existing cancer and and increase in fatty liver which was easily reversed. Long term data show outliers, as with all drugs. Its not toxic for any man taking it for 6-8 weeks at reasonable doses. Its not even close.
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I've gotta agree with your comparison to Tylenol as far as toxicity is concerned. It's a long term option for women with cancer...
 
yates84 said:
I've gotta agree with your comparison to Tylenol as far as toxicity is concerned. It's a long term option for women with cancer...
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Its a long term option and the only increases in cancer cases were seen in endometrial cells...and it was extremely rare. So I guess its toxic to those men who have a uterus.
 
Admin said:
Its a long term option and the only increases in cancer cases was seen in endometrial cells, and it was extremely rare. So I guess its toxic to those men who have a uterus.
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There's a few dudes on here that obviously do lmao
 
Well as toxic is not necessarily carcinogenic I agree on the latter not really being a problem. But Tamoxifene is still toxic. Hence the EU-Gefahrstoffkenzeichnung (classifies chemicals in risks) is T (giftig) and that means its toxic!
 
Bunshichi said:
Well as toxic is not necessarily carcinogenic I agree on the latter not really being a problem. But Tamoxifene is still toxic. Hence the EU-Gefahrstoffkenzeichnung (classifies chemicals in risks) is T (giftig) and that means its toxic!
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Then please tell me how its toxic and how thats relevant to anyone on this forum.
 
yates84 said:
There's a few dudes on here that obviously do lmao
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Week two of PCT on Clomid and I got weepy eyed watching a repeat of America's Got Talent last night. My wife caught me and started laughing. She said "does this mean when we go to bed you're going to want to cuddle and talk about your feelings?"

Apparantly, since Clomid makes men grow uterus's it should not be taken in conjunction with Tamoxifen.
 
HardB0iled said:
Week two of PCT on Clomid and I got weepy eyed watching a repeat of America's Got Talent last night. My wife caught me and started laughing. She said "does this mean when we go to bed you're going to want to cuddle and talk about your feelings?"

Apparantly, since Clomid makes men grow uterus's it should not be taken in conjunction with Tamoxifen.
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Hahahaha large doses of clomid do me the same way! 100mg made me feel like I grew a vagina overnight, never again
 
HardB0iled said:
Week two of PCT on Clomid and I got weepy eyed watching a repeat of America's Got Talent last night. My wife caught me and started laughing. She said "does this mean when we go to bed you're going to want to cuddle and talk about your feelings?"

Apparantly, since Clomid makes men grow uterus's it should not be taken in conjunction with Tamoxifen.
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hahahaha
 
yates84 said:
::crickets::
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Not trying to shut anyone down, but the notion that its "toxic" is so overblown and simply not true. I cant imagine if these same people saw the data on blood pressure and cholesterol meds. In their world, it would be considered mega toxic.
 
Admin said:
Not trying to shut anyone down, but the notion that its "toxic" is so overblown and simply not true. I cant imagine if these same people saw the data on blood pressure and cholesterol meds. In their world, it would be considered mega toxic.
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When you're right you're right. It is considered "toxic" but it just doesn't equate to the bb world. Just kinda funny to me that guys will eat 17a methylated steroids but want to worry about negative effects of serms and their toxicity level. Kinda ironic.
 
Admin said:
Then please tell me how its toxic and how thats relevant to anyone on this forum.
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I never stated that it is relevant to the users on this forum. I don't have anything against the responsible use of Tamoxifen and agree that there are much things, including the steroids themselves, to worry more about.

However a substance is toxic if a defined (low compared to the amount of food intake) dosage of the substance will damage the body.

And that just is true in regards to Tamoxifen.

You can't just say something isn't toxic because its not that toxic that it will hurt you in the way you are using it. Saying Tamoxifen is not toxic is just plain untrue.
 
Dr. Kiwigear, paging Dr. Kiwigear, you're needed in the Rumor Perpetuation Department please, thank you!
 
Bunshichi said:
I never stated that it is relevant to the users on this forum. I don't have anything against the responsible use of Tamoxifen and agree that there are much things, including the steroids themselves, to worry more about.

However a substance is toxic if a defined (low compared to the amount of food intake) dosage of the substance will damage the body.

And that just is true in regards to Tamoxifen.

You can't just say something isn't toxic because its not that toxic that it will hurt you in the way you are using it. Saying Tamoxifen is not toxic is just plain untrue.
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Actually you can because there is a major difference between adverse effects of outliers that are not consistent (the majority of side effects in tamoxifen), vs. side effects that are consistent and proven (ie methylated steroids). One is considered structurally toxic. The other has side effects that can be damaging in rare cases. Its not structurally toxic nor are the side effects the 99% of the people taking them. Its apples and oranges.

Chemotherapy is toxic. Tamoxifen is not.
 
BamBam0319 said:
Dr. Kiwigear, paging Dr. Kiwigear, you're needed in the Rumor Perpetuation Department please, thank you!
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I actually thought that guy was going to be ok for a bit.... Turns out he's been kicked off a few forums and is in the flames over on Meso right now.
Some guys just don't play nice with others I suppose
 
dave39 said:
I actually thought that guy was going to be ok for a bit.... Turns out he's been kicked off a few forums and is in the flames over on Meso right now.
Some guys just don't play nice with others I suppose
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He acts like a know it all prick. Yeah i'll run 5g of gear then say tamoxifen is toxic GENIUS.
 
YoungBodyBuil said:
He acts like a know it all prick. Yeah i'll run 5g of gear then say tamoxifen is toxic GENIUS.
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I think it's because he brews his own gear. A lot of guys who do that think they're scientists or doctors all of a sudden. I guess if I was running 5 grams of product I would think I was the top dog/always right too haha
 
dave39 said:
I think it's because he brews his own gear. A lot of guys who do that think they're scientists or doctors all of a sudden. I guess if I was running 5 grams of product I would think I was the top dog/always right too haha
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OMG is that a scary thought.
 
Kiwigear said:
I think oncologists know more dude lol
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I just discovered this thread and, as a newbie, found it to be a very concise and informative guide into the use of SERMS in a PCT, and think it probably saved me months of research and asking redundant/annoying questions...

After a couple hours of reading this thread, I get to the childish and bullsh1t snarky f*ckn remark (and the others that followed) that is making me laugh my ass off...

Anyway, insofar as liver toxicity is concerned with respect to a standard dosage of tamoxifen during PCT, what OTC sup or ingredients would be best to run to help get enzymes back in check?
 
mmorso said:
I just discovered this thread and, as a newbie, found it to be a very concise and informative guide into the use of SERMS in a PCT, and think it probably saved me months of research and asking redundant/annoying questions...

After a couple hours of reading this thread, I get to the childish and bullsh1t snarky f*ckn remark (and the others that followed) that is making me laugh my ass off...

Anyway, insofar as liver toxicity is concerned with respect to a standard dosage of tamoxifen during PCT, what OTC sup or ingredients would be best to run to help get enzymes back in check?
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TUDCA and NAC.
 
Also choline inositol.
 
Admin said:
Not trying to shut anyone down, but the notion that its "toxic" is so overblown and simply not true. I cant imagine if these same people saw the data on blood pressure and cholesterol meds. In their world, it would be considered mega toxic.
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And opiates. They put people on pain management and thrash their freaking livers
 
JordanTwitch said:
Has anyone tried the gyno reversal protocol? Was gonna use letro but **** crashing my estrogen.
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That's my personal protocol that I've used a few times now to deal with gyno. It works great for me. How bad is your gyno?
 
yates84 said:
That's my personal protocol that I've used a few times now to deal with gyno. It works great for me. How bad is your gyno?
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Ehh not too bad but bad enough to where it bugs me. It's not bad to the point where you stop and stare or day "dayum". But it's noticeable. I had it during puberty, and then it went away and came back when I ran ostarine and the guy who sold it to me assured me i wouldn't need an AI. Learned my lesson the hard way.
 
JordanTwitch said:
Ehh not too bad but bad enough to where it bugs me. It's not bad to the point where you stop and stare or day "dayum". But it's noticeable. I had it during puberty, and then it went away and came back when I ran ostarine and the guy who sold it to me assured me i wouldn't need an AI. Learned my lesson the hard way.
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Anything that interacts with the androgen receptors can cause high estrogen sides, lots of people find that out the hard way. My gyno protocol should at least shrink your gyno a good deal and you will just need to be ready with all the proper ancillaries any time you decide to cycle.
 
Yeah I plan on running Lgd this winter at 5mg. I'll have everything on hand. Gonna use aromasin for ai and clomid for pct. What dose of the aromasin would you recommend using for that cycle? It'll be 4 weeks, maybe 6 if I feel I can go longer.

Btw, been following a lot of the guides and stuff you've put up and it's very much appreciated. I just wish I had found it sooner lol.
 
JordanTwitch said:
Yeah I plan on running Lgd this winter at 5mg. I'll have everything on hand. Gonna use aromasin for ai and clomid for pct. What dose of the aromasin would you recommend using for that cycle? It'll be 4 weeks, maybe 6 if I feel I can go longer.

Btw, been following a lot of the guides and stuff you've put up and it's very much appreciated. I just wish I had found it sooner lol.
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You shouldn't have any issues on lgd especially that low a dose. I would recommend ramping that dose up to at least 10mg after a few weeks. Don't use any ai on cycle unless your gyno starts to get aggravated but if it does start bothering you 12.5mg eod is a good starting place for aromasin.
 
yates84 said:
You shouldn't have any issues on lgd especially that low a dose. I would recommend ramping that dose up to at least 10mg after a few weeks. Don't use any ai on cycle unless your gyno starts to get aggravated but if it does start bothering you 12.5mg eod is a good starting place for aromasin.
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I ran 30 mg ostarine and that's how I got the existing gyno. Is lgd less prone to estrogen sides? Because I should have been on the aromasin on that dose of ostarine, but I was told I shouldn't have to be.
 
JordanTwitch said:
I ran 30 mg ostarine and that's how I got the existing gyno. Is lgd less prone to estrogen sides? Because I should have been on the aromasin on that dose of ostarine, but I was told I shouldn't have to be.
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It's all user dependant but I have heard nothing about esteogen sides on lgd. It is always possible to get high estrogen sides any time you use a compound that interacts with the androgen receptors.
 
Out of curiosity... I know a dude who has run 2 cycles of PH, and used an OTC PCT each time to recover. Since a SERM springs you back faster, what are the risk that he is running from just using an OTC only.
 
Joe12 said:
Out of curiosity... I know a dude who has run 2 cycles of PH, and used an OTC PCT each time to recover. Since a SERM springs you back faster, what are the risk that he is running from just using an OTC only.
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The two that immediately come to mind are a greater chance of losing more of what he gained on cycle, and T levels not recovering to what they were before cycle.
 
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