Post Cycle Therapy: A User's Guide

[warpyfunch]

That would be my wish as well but it simply won't happen. The masses love armistane so that's what sells. It wouldn't be cost effective at all to make that product that only about 5% of our consumers would purchase. I've gotten to where I just make my own cycle support, it's so much cheaper and you can adjust doses however you want.

Might have to investigate that myself. PM sent.

 

[hamdysayed]

That would be my wish as well but it simply won't happen. The masses love armistane so that's what sells. It wouldn't be cost effective at all to make that product that only about 5% of our consumers would purchase. I've gotten to where I just make my own cycle support, it's so much cheaper and you can adjust doses however you want.

In for make ur perfect cycle support guide

 

[AustBenny]

AustBenny do you have deeper info on arimistane? It seems like they put that stuff in all sorts of otc on cycle and pct products, touting it as a suicidal AI.

The deeper info is it's some OTC garbage, good for a bit of cosmetic effect but I would NEVER rely on it beyond that.

 

[warpyfunch]

In for make ur perfect cycle support guide

^^^that

 

[thu_hobbit]

Subd

 

[1test]

Great info yates as always!
I have a question regarding pct and bridging, will post once i get home.

 

[unreal89]

gr8 info

 

[cubs1987]

great thread. subbed

 

[1test]

Ok so here it is. Everyone's opinion is welcome.
Was planning a bulk cycle with sdrol and andro and an oral test base but decided to do a cut with osta.
Original plan was osta at 15-20mgs for 8-12 weeks and complete pct and time off then bulk.
Situation right now is I might be reaching the point of bodyfat that I wanted to start my bulk with way sooner than expected (4 weeks to be precise).
What would be wisest thing to do?
- continue with osta and and gradually increase the kcal and end it with sdrol(say from week 8-12)
- just do osta only and a pct and the bulk sometime later.
- finish off osta around 6 week, do a mini pct, a week off and start with the bulk (contradicting what yates suggested in the original post - roller coaster for hormones)

Please note that I wouldn't consider myself as an advanced user on sarms or aas in general.

EDIT- Also running gw at 7-14 mg throughout!

 

[1test]

^ Apologies if it didn't turn out looking good, posted via phone!

 

[yates84]

Ok so here it is. Everyone's opinion is welcome.
Was planning a bulk cycle with sdrol and andro and an oral test base but decided to do a cut with osta.
Original plan was osta at 15-20mgs for 8-12 weeks and complete pct and time off then bulk.
Situation right now is I might be reaching the point of bodyfat that I wanted to start my bulk with way sooner than expected (4 weeks to be precise).
What would be wisest thing to do?
- continue with osta and and gradually increase the kcal and end it with sdrol(say from week 8-12)
- just do osta only and a pct and the bulk sometime later.
- finish off osta around 6 week, do a mini pct, a week off and start with the bulk (contradicting what yates suggested in the original post - roller coaster for hormones)

Please note that I wouldn't consider myself as an advanced user on sarms or aas in general.

EDIT- Also running gw at 7-14 mg throughout!

If I was in your position I would finish my cut on osta and bridge right into your bulk then pct. These sarm to ph bridges have been how I have ran my last few cycles and it has been working out great. You could start reverse dieting on the last week or two of the osta and then go hard for 4 weeks on the sd. Running the bulk later on would be cool too, just depends how you feel when the time comes.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

These threads usually end up with a TON of useful info in them, and I love Yates in a virtual, straight guy way - so glad to see another one, BUT....

Let's not lose sight of the fact that OL is coming out with PH's and having PCT nailed down is comforting to potential new users/buyers. I hope that doesn't derail any Knighting Ceremony / Sainthood plans big guy (Come on, I had to! )

Ok, that out of the way, three things I saw that I want to comment on:

1. AI's included in 'All In One' On Cycle or PCT supps: I agree, get them out (won't happen). I'd also like to see 5alpha Reductase stuff taken out too - IE. Saw Palmetto, Pygeum, Sterols, etc.... Yeah, odds are it isn't doing jack any way, but I *like* DHT and don't want to take the chance. Oh, and DHT is a pseudo AI - win/win

2. AI's in PCT: Agree, conflicting reccos. I'm in the 'No AI Unless Titties' camp. Let the SERM protect you as the body clears any excess Estrogen via CYP. In PCT we want homeostasis as fast as possible.

3. SERMs: After reading some stuff from Scally and the guys that pointed me there, I now run a dual SERM Clomid/Nolva PCT exclusively. And being a scared old man, always for 4 weeks + 2 EOD

Notes: I've only ever done, or will do 'weak a$$ compounds', so obviously all of the above could be subject to being bass ackward wrong.

 

[1test]

If I was in your position I would finish my cut on osta and bridge right into your bulk then pct. These sarm to ph bridges have been how I have ran my last few cycles and it has been working out great. You could start reverse dieting on the last week or two of the osta and then go hard for 4 weeks on the sd. Running the bulk later on would be cool too, just depends how you feel when the time comes.

Sounds good.
So how does weeks 1-12 of osta with gw and sd from 8-11/12 look like? Diet will be manipulated on the way.

 

[yates84]

Sounds good.
So how does weeks 1-12 of osta with gw and sd from 8-11/12 look like? Diet will be manipulated on the way.

There isn't really any need to continue your osta after you start the sd. Personally, I would drop it.

 

[jake1986]

Yates would you recommend to continue running liver detox supps throughout PCT?

 

[BamBam0319]

Yates would you recommend to continue running liver detox supps throughout PCT?

You should. SERMs like nolva, clomid are liver toxic

 

[yates84]

You should. SERMs like nolva, clomid are liver toxic

This^^ also, it will take a little while for liver enzymes and even bp to regulate after your cycle is over. Recovery is really about more than just the hpta

 

[jake1986]

You should. SERMs like nolva, clomid are liver toxic

Cool man. That's something I did not know. Thanks guys

 

[yates84]

These threads usually end up with a TON of useful info in them, and I love Yates in a virtual, straight guy way - so glad to see another one, BUT....

Let's not lose sight of the fact that OL is coming out with PH's and having PCT nailed down is comforting to potential new users/buyers. I hope that doesn't derail any Knighting Ceremony / Sainthood plans big guy (Come on, I had to! )

Ok, that out of the way, three things I saw that I want to comment on:

1. AI's included in 'All In One' On Cycle or PCT supps: I agree, get them out (won't happen). I'd also like to see 5alpha Reductase stuff taken out too - IE. Saw Palmetto, Pygeum, Sterols, etc.... Yeah, odds are it isn't doing jack any way, but I *like* DHT and don't want to take the chance. Oh, and DHT is a pseudo AI - win/win

2. AI's in PCT: Agree, conflicting reccos. I'm in the 'No AI Unless Titties' camp. Let the SERM protect you as the body clears any excess Estrogen via CYP. In PCT we want homeostasis as fast as possible.

3. SERMs: After reading some stuff from Scally and the guys that pointed me there, I now run a dual SERM Clomid/Nolva PCT exclusively. And being a scared old man, always for 4 weeks + 2 EOD

Notes: I've only ever done, or will do 'weak a$$ compounds', so obviously all of the above could be subject to being bass ackward wrong.

Missed this somehow. This thread actually doesn't have any connection to OL, I decided to write this one afternoon while on vacation. No work, wife and kid gone, and had already been to the gym. This kind of stuff is how I like to spend my free time. No alterior motives here.

 

[1test]

I see a lot of guys swearing on the combo of tamoxifen and clomifene. I see how it can help and would it really make a big difference in recovery ? I would love to know more on this!

 

[cubs1987]

I see a lot of guys swearing on the combo of tamoxifen and clomifene. I see how it can help and would it really make a big difference in recovery ? I would love to know more on this!

Seconded... interested in the combo rather than just tamox.

 

[warpyfunch]

Seconded... interested in the combo rather than just tamox.

Thirded. Thus far I've always just used clomid, as I've prioritized htpa restoration over gyno prevention, and kept aromasin in reserve in case of the latter. Curious how significant an advantage might be gained from a serm combo.

 

[The_Old_Guy]

Missed this somehow. This thread actually doesn't have any connection to OL, I decided to write this one afternoon while on vacation. No work, wife and kid gone, and had already been to the gym. This kind of stuff is how I like to spend my free time. No alterior motives here.

Hugs! XXOO

Re: Dual SERM, you guys can start here and then branch out research wise - that's what I did and it made good sense to me.

https://www.reddit.com/r/steroids/wiki/thecycle/pct

In particular:

What's the point of using two different SERMs during PCT?

There are 2 major components involved in recovery. Testosterone production and Spermatogenesis.

LH and FSH are both required for the equation. LH is produced by the pituitary and stimulates the Leydig cells to produce testosterone. Once testosterone is in production it works alongside FSH and stimulates sertoli cells to produce sperm. Sperm production is hindered if either of these are unhealthy. They both work in synergy. You need BOTH to be at healthy levels. Nolvadex is dominant in LH promotion and Clomid is dominant in promoting FSH.

Clomid has multiple effects. It's an anti-estrogen, so it obviously decreases the estrogenic effects in your body by stimulating the Hypothalamus back to life and sending gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) to your pituitary, so that LH/FSH can be secreted.

Nolva boosts the effects of Clomid because it put Clomid into "competition" mode where they both fight for a receptors to bind to. This competitiveness will only occur with the presence of BOTH Nolva/Clomid, and will inevitably resolve the issue of excess estrogen in the Hypothalamus. This will trigger both LH and FSH to crank UP, as the high estrogen in this cluster is suppressive. This entire scenario is not as effective with only one drug.

Furthermore varying the compounds; Since we know both stimulate LH, what most don't know is that the act is different. Clomid boosts the amplitude of LH serum, but has no effect on the frequency. Nolvadex is the complete opposite in that area, where it boosts the actual frequency of LH and has no effect on its amplitude.

You're probably assuming they're identical and overpowering... Clomid is a mixed agonist/antagonist for the estradiol receptor. Nolva is also mixed, however.... it is a pure antagonist in the E receptor in breast tissue. There is a reason that Clomid is not recommended for gynecomastia reversal, but Nolva is.

Can you recover with just Nolvadex, or just Clomid? Well, anything is possible. But why would you take that risk if the combination gives you a much better chance? To save a few bucks and risk your health? Clomid when coupled with Nolvadex is clearly the safer choice over using either compound individually.

*You can substitute Clomid with Toremifine as well.

I don't get Clomid sides, if I did maybe I'd do something else. If you want to search on AM for this protocol, look for posts by AnalogMan, Blergs, and StanleyG

 

[Toren]

All of my PCT's now consist of Clomiphene and Tamoxifen. The combo never lets me down, and as mentioned above, there is science behind it. You also don't have to do full doses of the compounds either, but you will still reap the benefits of using the two-compound method. For instance, my PCT after my current 12 week cycle will look like this (just noting SERM usage)...

Clomiphene: 50 - 25 - 12.5 - 0 - 0
Tamoxifen: 20 - 20 - 10 - 10 - 5

In most instances, a single compound SERM will be more than enough but being as though a full recovery is still very important to me, I like to cover all my bases. As always, experience (and blood work) will tell you what works best, but the PCT protocol you choose will certainly depend on your age, how long you have been cycling, the length of your cycles and the supressive nature of the compounds you use. A 25 year old PCT'ing after a 6 week Ostarine cycle (in theory) should not need the same PCT that a 40 year old man (with a heavy cycle history) would need after coming off of a 20 week Test/Deca cycle. Of course there are exceptions to every rule.

Dr Michael Scally is the man that a lot of people use as a reference for their PCT protocols. He is a well-studied leader in the recommendation for the dual-SERM protocol (amongst other things). There is a wealth of information in the links below, so if you are truly interested in learning, take the time and read the posted links.

Anabolic steroid-induced hypogonadism – Towards a unified hypothesis of anabolic steroid action

TRT and Steroid Side Effect Management – Interview With Dr. Michael Scally – Part 1

TRT and Steroid Side Effect Management – Interview with Dr. Michael Scally – Part 2

 

[warpyfunch]

All of my PCT's now consist of Clomiphene and Tamoxifen. The combo never lets me down, and as mentioned above, there is science behind it. You also don't have to do full doses of the compounds either, but you will still reap the benefits of using the two-compound method. For instance, my PCT after my current 12 week cycle will look like this (just noting SERM usage)...

Clompihene: 50 - 25 - 12.5 - 0 - 0
Tamoxifen: 20 - 20 - 10 - 10 - 5

In most instances, a single compound SERM will be more than enough but being as though a full recovery is still very important to me, I like to cover all my bases. As always, experience (and blood work) will tell you what works best, but the PCT protocol you choose will certainly depend on your age, how long you have been cycling, the length of your cycles and the supressive nature of the compounds you use. A 25 year old PCT'ing after a 6 week Ostarine cycle (in theory) should not need the same PCT that a 40 year old man (with a heavy cycle history) would need after coming off of a 20 week Test/Dea cycle. Of course there are exceptions to every rule.

Dr Michael Scally is the man that a lot of people use as a reference for their PCT protocols. He is a well-studied leader in the recommendation for the dual-SERM protocol (amongst other things). There is a wealth of information in the links below, so if you are truly interested in learning, take the time and read the posted links.

Anabolic steroid-induced hypogonadism – Towards a unified hypothesis of anabolic steroid action

TRT and Steroid Side Effect Management – Interview With Dr. Michael Scally – Part 1

TRT and Steroid Side Effect Management – Interview with Dr. Michael Scally – Part 2

thanks, man!

 

[rtmilburn]

What about clomid and torem stack? I heard that is supposed to be the stack for pct?

 

[rtmilburn]

Also what is you guys opinion of mixed tocols(mixed forms of vit E) such as botanical craft in pct? Because isn't mixed vit E supposed to increase the lyding cells sensitivity.

 

[Toren]

Also what is you guys opinion of mixed tocols(mixed forms of vit E) such as botanical craft in pct? Because isn't mixed vit E supposed to increase the lyding cells sensitivity.

I'm actually taking a Tocotrienol suplement as we speak. The reason I am taking it is for it's studied ability to thicken hair (anti-oxidative effect) and help in cholesterol management. I figure both are good for on cycle and I will continue to take it for as long as I see fit. I have read about the ability for tocotrienols to help in Testosterone production via incresing testicular sensitivity to LH. I can't recall if there are scientific studies for that specific action, but I think there are. I will check my desktop resource later on.

A mixed toco complex can definitely be a healthy addition to one's supplement regimen but I believe that most of the reported benefits of a toco complex come specifically from the tocotrienol side of the complex, as opposed to the tocopherol side of things. What I do know is that tocopherols can interfere with the action of tocotrienols so it is best to get a product that is standardized for tocotrienols with as little tocopherols as possible. I'm not suggesting there are no benefits to tocopherols but all of the information I have read suggest taking the tocopherols separate to the tocotrienols is the best method for getting the benefits of both. Vitamins in the morning and tocotrienols at night is a good suggestion but as my vitamins are 2 a day, I just make sure to have a few hours in between the two.

http://www.tocotrienol.org/scientific-references-of-tocotrienol.html

 

[hamdysayed]

I'm actually taking a Tocotrienol suplement as we speak. The reason I am taking it is for it's studied ability to thicken hair (anti-oxidative effect) and help in cholesterol management. I figure both are good for on cycle and I will continue to take it for as long as I see fit. I have read about the ability for tocotrienols to help in Testosterone production via incresing testicular sensitivity to LH. I can't recall if there are scientific studies for that specific action, but I think there are. I will check my desktop resource later on.

A mixed toco complex can definitely be a healthy addition to one's supplement regimen but I believe that most of the reported benefits of a toco complex come specifically from the tocotrienol side of the complex, as opposed to the tocopherol side of things. What I do know is that tocopherols can interfere with the action of tocotrienols so it is best to get a product that is standardized for tocotrienols with as little tocopherols as possible. I'm not suggesting there are no benefits to tocopherols but all of the information I have read suggest taking the tocopherols separate to the tocotrienols is the best method for getting the benefits of both. Vitamins in the morning and tocotrienols at night is a good suggestion but as my vitamins are 2 a day, I just make sure to have a few hours in between the two.

http://www.tocotrienol.org/scientific-references-of-tocotrienol.html

Interesting...

 

[UncleSarm]

I'm actually taking a Tocotrienol suplement as we speak. The reason I am taking it is for it's studied ability to thicken hair (anti-oxidative effect) and help in cholesterol management. I figure both are good for on cycle and I will continue to take it for as long as I see fit. I have read about the ability for tocotrienols to help in Testosterone production via incresing testicular sensitivity to LH. I can't recall if there are scientific studies for that specific action, but I think there are. I will check my desktop resource later on.

A mixed toco complex can definitely be a healthy addition to one's supplement regimen but I believe that most of the reported benefits of a toco complex come specifically from the tocotrienol side of the complex, as opposed to the tocopherol side of things. What I do know is that tocopherols can interfere with the action of tocotrienols so it is best to get a product that is standardized for tocotrienols with as little tocopherols as possible. I'm not suggesting there are no benefits to tocopherols but all of the information I have read suggest taking the tocopherols separate to the tocotrienols is the best method for getting the benefits of both. Vitamins in the morning and tocotrienols at night is a good suggestion but as my vitamins are 2 a day, I just make sure to have a few hours in between the two.

Effect of vitamin E on function of pituitary-gonadal axis in male rats and human subjects.
Umeda F, Kato K, Muta K, Ibayashi H.

The role of vitamin E in the endocrine system, in particular the pituitary-gonadal axis, was studied in humans and male rats by examining the hormonal differences between vitamin E deficient and supplemented conditions. In vitamin E deficient rats, pituitary content and basal plasma level of FSH and LH were significantly lower than those of the control rats, but testicular content and basal plasma level of testosterone were not significantly changed. On the other hand, in vitamin E supplemented rats, FSH and LH content in pituitary tissue was significantly higher than that of the controls, but there was no significant rise in basal FSH and LH level in plasma. The testosterone level was significantly elevated in both testicular tissue and plasma. It was also demonstrated that basal plasma testosterone and F.T.I. were increased in normal male subjects following oral vitamin E administration and the responsiveness of plasma testosterone levels to HCG was significantly higher during vitamin E administration than before administration. These results suggest that vitamin E may play an important and potent role in hormone production in the pituitary-gonadal axis in humans and rats.

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6816576

 

[Joedoubledose]

This is sweet lol just now saw this

 

[rtmilburn]

Effect of vitamin E on function of pituitary-gonadal axis in male rats and human subjects.
Umeda F, Kato K, Muta K, Ibayashi H.

The role of vitamin E in the endocrine system, in particular the pituitary-gonadal axis, was studied in humans and male rats by examining the hormonal differences between vitamin E deficient and supplemented conditions. In vitamin E deficient rats, pituitary content and basal plasma level of FSH and LH were significantly lower than those of the control rats, but testicular content and basal plasma level of testosterone were not significantly changed. On the other hand, in vitamin E supplemented rats, FSH and LH content in pituitary tissue was significantly higher than that of the controls, but there was no significant rise in basal FSH and LH level in plasma. The testosterone level was significantly elevated in both testicular tissue and plasma. It was also demonstrated that basal plasma testosterone and F.T.I. were increased in normal male subjects following oral vitamin E administration and the responsiveness of plasma testosterone levels to HCG was significantly higher during vitamin E administration than before administration. These results suggest that vitamin E may play an important and potent role in hormone production in the pituitary-gonadal axis in humans and rats.

Source (http) www_ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6816576

I will fix once I can post links ^^^

Interesting that vit E increases testosterone levels when also being treated with hcg!

(Warning broscience about to happen below)

What that suggest to ME, is that high dosed mixed forms of vit E; does successfully increase lyding cells sensitivity.

As it is pretty well documented that hcg doesn't increase testosterone levels in regular/non-hypogonadal males. It is theorized, that hcg is too strong of an LH mimicker; and that it being too strong of an LH mimicker is what causes desensitization to lyding cells(both may actually be proven, not just a theory, but I'm not sure. So I'm not going to state it as such.)

So it would make sense that high dosed mixed forms of vit E does actually increase lyding cells sensitivity. Since hcg DID increase testosterone WHEN also being administered with high dosed mix vit E. Although, my opinion is based on the assumption that hcg is too strong of a LH mimicker, and that being to strong of an LH mimicker causes desensitization to lyding cells.

(End of broscience)

I wonder if the same results would happen to a non-hypogonadal male that is and isn't being treated with hcg, or if it would increase testosterone in both hypogonadal and non-hypogonadal males that are being treated with a substance that are known to increase natural LH production(such as SERMS, especially clomid, and triptorelin), or in a hypogonadal male that ISN'T being treated with hcg, or even increase it in a regular non-hypogonadal male that isnt taking anything else?!?!?

 

[warpyfunch]

Interesting that vit E increases testosterone levels when also being treated with hcg!

(Warning broscience about to happen below)

What that suggest to ME, is that high dosed mixed forms of vit E; does successfully increase lyding cells sensitivity.

As it is pretty well documented that hcg doesn't increase testosterone levels in regular/non-hypogonadal males. It is theorized, that hcg is too strong of an LH mimicker; and that it being too strong of an LH mimicker is what causes desensitization to lyding cells(both may actually be proven, not just a theory, but I'm not sure. So I'm not going to state it as such.)

So it would make sense that high dosed mixed forms of vit E does actually increase lyding cells sensitivity. Since hcg DID increase testosterone WHEN also being administered with high dosed mix vit E. Although, my opinion is based on the assumption that hcg is too strong of a LH mimicker, and that being to strong of an LH mimicker causes desensitization to lyding cells.

(End of broscience)

I wonder if the same results would happen to a non-hypogonadal male that is and isn't being treated with hcg, or if it would increase testosterone in both hypogonadal and non-hypogonadal males that are being treated with a substance that are known to increase natural LH production(such as SERMS, especially clomid, and triptorelin), or in a hypogonadal male that ISN'T being treated with hcg, or even increase it in a regular non-hypogonadal male that isnt taking anything else?!?!?

that's quality broscience. makes perfect sense to me. brb, ordering vitamin e for pct.

 

[UncleSarm]

that's quality broscience. makes perfect sense to me. brb, ordering vitamin e for pct.

Just make sure the vitamin E contains gamma-tocotrienol. Supposedly that is the compound that makes all the magic come alive. Many vitamin E supplements just contain alpha-tocopherol. Apparently a complete vitamin E contains alpha-, beta-, gamma-, and delta-tocopherol and alpha-, beta-, gamma-, and delta-tocotrienol. Sorry, no quotes, but I was reading that earlier today.

 

[rtmilburn]

that's quality broscience. makes perfect sense to me. brb, ordering vitamin e for pct.

Haha thanks im wanting to go to school to get my degree in bro-oligy

I would makes sure that it is mixed forms including all 8. They are alpha,gamma,beta,delta isomers of both tocopherol and tocotrienol. Also make sure that it is higher in tocotrienols then tocopherols, but not to much higher. And on top of all of that make sure that each isomer of both tocotrienols and tocopherols are at least close to the proper ratios.

The reason you want the tocotrienols to be higher is, it has shown in studies to be the one responsible for most of vit Es benefits. Its benefits FAR exceed just "possible" increase in lyding cells sensitivity(I say possible because again i'm not sure if that is proven or just a theory.). Most of which are proven and not just theories.

Some benefits of vit E are:
-Improve cholesterol levels
-Protect cholesterol molecules from oxidation
-Prevents thrombotic lesions
-Protects the brain from both lesions and overall aging
-Improve skin health
-Improve bone strength and accelerate fracture healing
-Well known powerful antioxidant
-Increase HDL
-Lower LDL
-Increase the amount of hair growth
-Slows down and prevents cancer

 

[warpyfunch]

Just make sure the vitamin E contains gamma-tocotrienol. Supposedly that is the compound that makes all the magic come alive. Many vitamin E supplements just contain alpha-tocopherol. Apparently a complete vitamin E contains alpha-, beta-, and gamma-tocopherol and alpha-, beta-, and gamma-tocotrienol. Sorry, no quotes, but I was reading that earlier today.

Haha thanks im wanting to go to school to get my degree in bro-oligy

I would makes sure that it is mixed forms including all 8. They are alpha,gamma,beta,delta isomers of both tocopherol and tocotrienol. Also make sure that it is higher in tocotrienols then tocopherols, but not to much higher. And on top of all of that make sure that each isomer of both tocotrienols and tocopherols are at least close to the proper ratios.

The reason you want the tocotrienols to be higher is, it has shown in studies to be the one responsible for most of vit Es benefits. Its benefits FAR exceed just "possible" increase in lyding cells sensitivity(I say possible because again i'm not sure if that is proven or just a theory.). Most of which are proven and not just theories.

Some benefits of vit E are:
-Improve cholesterol levels
-Protect cholesterol molecules from oxidation
-Prevents thrombotic lesions
-Protects the brain from both lesions and overall aging
-Improve skin health
-Improve bone strength and accelerate fracture healing
-Well known powerful antioxidant
-Increase HDL
-Lower LDL
-Increase the amount of hair growth
-Slows down and prevents cancer

these are some very specific requirements to look for in a vit e supp. sounds like it may be pretty hard to find.

 

[rtmilburn]

these are some very specific requirements to look for in a vit e supp. sounds like it may be pretty hard to find.

There are a couple
You have Ageforce vit E patch(although im not sure they are legit and i have not clue with transdermal vit E), botanicalcraft, and there might be more; but I'm not sure. I would recommend botanicalcraft they are legit. The only downside with it is there isnt to many places that sale it, and i won't buy it off of their website.

 

[warpyfunch]

There are a couple
You have Ageforce vit E patch(although im not sure they are legit and i have not clue with transdermal vit E), botanicalcraft, and there might be more; but I'm not sure. I would recommend botanicalcraft they are legit. The only downside with it is there isnt to many places that sale it, and i won't buy it off of their website.

just skimming around on amazon for the sake of convenience, it looks like the best bet might be to combine two products... one for tocotrienols and one for tocopherols. also not sure yet on the optimal daily amounts for each type...

a number of manufacturers seem to be licensing a mix called 'tocomin suprabio' which has a breakdown of...

per 50mg:
d-Gamma tocotrienol 23.2 mg
d-Alpha tocotrienol 15.4 mg
d-Delta tocotrienol 8.6 mg
d-Beta tocotrienol 2.8 mg

now to determine the ideal daily dose of that, and the ideal ratio to their tocopherol counterparts from a separate supp...

 

[Toren]

Effect of vitamin E on function of pituitary-gonadal axis in male rats and human subjects.
Umeda F, Kato K, Muta K, Ibayashi H.

The role of vitamin E in the endocrine system, in particular the pituitary-gonadal axis, was studied in humans and male rats by examining the hormonal differences between vitamin E deficient and supplemented conditions. In vitamin E deficient rats, pituitary content and basal plasma level of FSH and LH were significantly lower than those of the control rats, but testicular content and basal plasma level of testosterone were not significantly changed. On the other hand, in vitamin E supplemented rats, FSH and LH content in pituitary tissue was significantly higher than that of the controls, but there was no significant rise in basal FSH and LH level in plasma. The testosterone level was significantly elevated in both testicular tissue and plasma. It was also demonstrated that basal plasma testosterone and F.T.I. were increased in normal male subjects following oral vitamin E administration and the responsiveness of plasma testosterone levels to HCG was significantly higher during vitamin E administration than before administration. These results suggest that vitamin E may play an important and potent role in hormone production in the pituitary-gonadal axis in humans and rats.

Source (http) www_ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6816576

I will fix once I can post links ^^^

I've seen that study a few times over the years. It is certainly interesting. Of note from that study, the control groups were rats who were deficient or deprived of vitamin E versus a group that was given a vitamin E supplement. It's pretty rare for people to be deficient in vitamin E now a days and if you take a multi-vitamin, you wlll not be deficient. In essence, who is to say how much of the vitamin would be helpful or even a hinderance. It also would have been nice to see them break down the fractions (if they even used ore than 1) and test them individually to see which one really was the powerhouse or if all of them together were most beneficial. That study is over 30 years old though so at the time, science did not know much about the potential power of tocotrienols and that the anti-oxidative effect was greater then the tocopherol variant.

At the very least, this study shows that vitamin E helps in T production in some way. We also know that other vitamins like A,C,D, and some forms of B, as well as minerals like zinc can all help to normalize T levels. Unfortunately, the study does not show serum levels of vitamins (both e and otherwise) and how much of an increase or decrease affects the stimulation of T through various mechanisms. The study is a positive indicator for sure, but without considering other factors, I certainly wouldn't mega-dose vitamin E in hopes of boosting Testosterone. A the very least, if you want to take an E supplement (for health reasons), take it for a specific documented need (very helpful in that regard) and use a full-spectrum E with all 8 fractions. The original in that regard was Toco-8 by Primordial Performance.

It would also have be nice to see the breakdown of the amounts of the 4 tocopherols and the 4 tocotrienols used in the supplementation or if they just used a single fraction tocopherol. The various fractions definitely have different benefits despite the interchangability of some of them. At the very least we know that vitamin E (no idea which type) has some benefits in stimulating the male HPTA system. I would not advise mega-dosing vitamin E (probably synthetic tocopherol acetate in most cases) just for the sake of it.

What we do know is that people generally aren't deficient in the tocopherol side of Vitamin E as this is generally what is used in vitamin supplements and more readily available in nature. If you want to naturally boost your E levels, eat fish, leafy greens and consume lots of olive oil. What we also know is that the tocotrienol fractions in the vitamin E family are a lot harder to come by in nature. For instance, large quantities of palm oil has to be processed to extract the beneficial tocotrienols. These fractions are what is rare within most of our diets and also has shown lots of promise in various recent studies.

I'm going to stick to my multi-vitamin, while at the same time supplementing with 100mg a day of a full-spectrum tocotrienol complex. As I mentioned above, I will consume the trienols away from my tocopherols (specifically alpha).

Edit: I forgot to post this link which shows a lowering of Testosterone with vitamin E supplementation.

http://www.peaktestosterone.com/Testosterone_Vitamin-E.aspx

 

[Toren]

just skimming around on amazon for the sake of convenience, it looks like the best bet might be to combine two products... one for tocotrienols and one for tocopherols. also not sure yet on the optimal daily amounts for each type...

a number of manufacturers seem to be licensing a mix called 'tocomin suprabio' which has a breakdown of...

per 50mg:
d-Gamma tocotrienol 23.2 mg
d-Alpha tocotrienol 15.4 mg
d-Delta tocotrienol 8.6 mg
d-Beta tocotrienol 2.8 mg

now to determine the ideal daily dose of that, and the ideal ratio to their tocopherol counterparts from a separate supp...

Tocomin SupraBio is the trademarked and patented brand of the most studied form. You should look for that when you are shopping. There are other variants that are good as well.

I am currently using Healthy Origins Tocomin SupraBio. Its is a good value for the quantity. Other good and fairly inexpensive versions are made by Swanson and and Jarrow.

 

[warpyfunch]

Tocomin SupraBio is the trademarked and patented brand of the most studied form. You should look for that when you are shopping. There are other variants that are good as well.

I am currently using Health Origins Tocomin SupraBio. Its is a good value for the quantity. Other good and fairly inexpensive versions are made by Swanson and and Jarrow.

Yup those are the brands I'm seeing. Do you happen to know the ideal dosage of tocopherols ratio to 100mg suprabio?

 

[Toren]

Yup those are the brands I'm seeing. Do you happen to know the ideal dosage of tocopherols ratio to 100mg suprabio?

I don't think there is an exact ratio. Most of the Tocotrienol complexes use less than the RDA of vitamin E. I believe I read to stick to a complex that has somewhere in the range os 15-20ish IU's of vitamin E per 50mg of tocotrienols. The less the better though. You will get your tocopherols in other ways.

 

[warpyfunch]

Hm, also interesting, comparing the labels between Swanson and Healthy Origin versions, while both claim 50mg of suprabio, the breakdown of individual tocotrienols is slightly different.

swanson, which i posted before:
per 50mg:
d-Gamma tocotrienol 23.2 mg
d-Alpha tocotrienol 15.4 mg
d-Delta tocotrienol 8.6 mg
d-Beta tocotrienol 2.8 mg

healthy origins:
per 50mg:
d-Gamma tocotrienol 26 mg
d-Alpha tocotrienol 14.3 mg
d-Delta tocotrienol 7.2 mg
d-Beta tocotrienol 2.5 mg

not sure what to make of that given that they both claim to be licensing the same complex. jarrow does not list the fractions individually.

 

[warpyfunch]

Hm, also interesting, comparing the labels between Swanson and Healthy Origin versions, while both claim 50mg of suprabio, the breakdown of individual tocotrienols is slightly different.

swanson, which i posted before:
per 50mg:
d-Gamma tocotrienol 23.2 mg
d-Alpha tocotrienol 15.4 mg
d-Delta tocotrienol 8.6 mg
d-Beta tocotrienol 2.8 mg

healthy origins:
per 50mg:
d-Gamma tocotrienol 26 mg
d-Alpha tocotrienol 14.3 mg
d-Delta tocotrienol 7.2 mg
d-Beta tocotrienol 2.5 mg

not sure what to make of that given that they both claim to be licensing the same complex. jarrow does not list the fractions individually.

found some other brands that seem to match the swanson breakdown (allergy research, naturecity true-e) so it seems like the healthy origins version is the odd duck.

 

[Toren]

Hm, also interesting, comparing the labels between Swanson and Healthy Origin versions, while both claim 50mg of suprabio, the breakdown of individual tocotrienols is slightly different.

swanson, which i posted before:
per 50mg:
d-Gamma tocotrienol 23.2 mg
d-Alpha tocotrienol 15.4 mg
d-Delta tocotrienol 8.6 mg
d-Beta tocotrienol 2.8 mg

healthy origins:
per 50mg:
d-Gamma tocotrienol 26 mg
d-Alpha tocotrienol 14.3 mg
d-Delta tocotrienol 7.2 mg
d-Beta tocotrienol 2.5 mg

not sure what to make of that given that they both claim to be licensing the same complex. jarrow does not list the fractions individually.

The difference is negligible. The Tocomin extraction process itself is patented. There will always be slight variations in final product.

 

[Toren]

yates84, sorry to take up too much of your PCT thread! Great platform though.

 

[warpyfunch]

The difference is negligible. The Tocomin extraction process itself is patented. There will always be slight variations in final product.

ah that makes sense. i assumed that all these companies were sourcing from a single manufacturer, but it would seem healthy origins has a different source than the rest i guess.

 

[Toren]

found some other brands that seem to match the swanson breakdown (allergy research, naturecity true-e) so it seems like the healthy origins version is the odd duck.

They should all be basically the same but with some variations. I am not in the US so the Healthy Origins brand was the best option for me.

Here: Check this out - https://www.carotec.com/product/Tocomin-Supra-Bio-Palm-Tocotrienols/vitamins - the information, not necessarily the product.

 

[BamBam0319]

Way too much vit E info in here for me to process lol sounds like a solid addition to PCT though, as does the new TEST1FY Pro!

 

[yates84]

yates84, sorry to take up too much of your PCT thread! Great platform though.

Thank you for sharing information guys! I'm learning in here myself. If it applies to pct, please keep contributing