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I'm on Phosphatidic acid Ya'll

Personally I think biotest is a crock of **** getting the best of uneducated supplement users. SL works. Damn well too. Aside from it not fitting into macros (bc they tack on quickly) it's the best bang for your buck. Is OL Triumph the only other realistic option?
 
JONimal said:
Personally I think biotest is a crock of **** getting the best of uneducated supplement users. SL works. Damn well too. Aside from it not fitting into macros (bc they tack on quickly) it's the best bang for your buck. Is OL Triumph the only other realistic option?
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I think Epiq puts out a decent product. Never tried it but they have always seemed like a reputable company
 
warpyfunch said:
haven't checked on this thread in a while, and thinking about getting back on PA. is everyone still using lecithin granules? or are there any new products worth checking out?
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I could not find any lecithin granules locally, but I did find lecithin powder. It claims to be "pure lecithin" with "no fillers", but it does not like the phosphadite (sp?) contents. This is what it lists:

Supplement Facts
Serving size: 1200 milligrams
Serving per container: *
Amount Per Serving % Daily Value**
Total Fat <1g <2%
Total Carbohydrates <1g <1%
Phosphorous 24mg 3%
Potassium <6mg <1%
Lecithin… 1200mg *

Any ideas about how that would translate to the granules dosages discussed here?

Thanks!

EDIT: It does say it is sourced from Soy
 
Sparkss said:
I could not find any lecithin granules locally, but I did find lecithin powder. It claims to be "pure lecithin" with "no fillers", but it does not like the phosphadite (sp?) contents. This is what it lists:

Supplement Facts
Serving size: 1200 milligrams
Serving per container: *
Amount Per Serving% Daily Value**
Total Fat <1g<2%
Total Carbohydrates <1g<1%
Phosphorous 24mg3%
Potassium <6mg<1%
Lecithin… 1200mg*

Any ideas about how that would translate to the granules dosages discussed here?

Thanks!

EDIT: It does say it is sourced from Soy
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Well, the dose in grams should remain the same for powder as with granules, assuming their the same thing, just one is a powder. Some say de-oiled (which is good, the granules/powder has more PA than liquid lecithin), and some are standardized for a minimum total phosphatidites, which is also nice. However, you should be looking at 4-7% PA from lecithin granules/powder. With that in mind, to be sure you get 750mg PA (the studied dose) you want at least 18.75g lecithin, which would give you between 750-1312mg PA. For the granules, that's about 2.5tbsp. The powder may need a little less, as it'd be tighter packed, but I'm not sure.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Well, the dose in grams should remain the same for powder as with granules, assuming their the same thing, just one is a powder. Some say de-oiled (which is good, the granules/powder has more PA than liquid lecithin), and some are standardized for a minimum total phosphatidites, which is also nice. However, you should be looking at 4-7% PA from lecithin granules/powder. With that in mind, to be sure you get 750mg PA (the studied dose) you want at least 18.75g lecithin, which would give you between 750-1312mg PA. For the granules, that's about 2.5tbsp. The powder may need a little less, as it'd be tighter packed, but I'm not sure.
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Yea, I was just researching the weight dose (grams) between the two. The granules comes out to roughly 15g per 2 TBS. The Powder comes out to jsut under 9g per TBS (8.9g), so a little bit of difference, but not a huge amount. So I am going to shoot for 1.5 TBS to start, but really need to be at 1 TBS + 2 TSP (or 5 TSP) to match the 15g raw SL dose.

EDIT: I am starting slow because I have a very sensitive (weak *ss) GI tract, so I want to see how it works out before going to any larger dosages. From your calculation I need to try to end up at 2 TBS of the powder (to equal roughly 18g). Is that split across 2 doses? or per dose twice a day? I thought that 750mg was per day? Thanks!!!

I see that some people take it at night also. I want to assess my GI handling of the dosage before taking PWO (and blowing up my workout if it and my stomach don't "get along"). Are there any issues with taking it before bed? (any reported insomnia from the muscle fullness?)
 
Found the study, reposting it here in case anyone else "new" needs it:

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At least I think that is the study you (and others) are referring to. Please let me know if I linked to the wrong one.

It does say 750mg ed. I am reading up the study to see if they split that dosage across two times or just one massive one :)
 
I've been working on products with the guys over at ChemiNutra for over a year now. Solid, solid guys that care greatly about their ingredients. Here's a new study they just funded:

Abstract Background: Phosphatidic acid (PA) is a lipid messenger that has been shown to increase muscle protein synthesis via signaling stimulation of the mammalian target of rapamycin (mTOR). MaxxTOR® (MT) is a supplement that contains PA as the main active ingredient but also contains other synergistic mTOR signaling substances including L-Leucine, Beta-Hydroxy-Beta-Methylbutyrate (HMB), and Vitamin D3. Methods: Eighteen healthy strength-trained males were randomly assigned to a group that either consumed MT (n =8,22.0+/− 2.5years;175.8+/− 11.5 cm; 80.3 +/− 15.1 kg) or a placebo (PLA) (n=10, 25.6 +/− 4.2 years; 174.8 +/− 9.0 cm; 88.6 +/− 16.6 kg) as part of a double-blind, placebo controlled pre/post experimental design. All participants volunteered to complete the three day per week resistance training protocol for the eight week study duration. To determine the effects of MT, participants were tested on one repetition maximum (1RM) leg press strength (LP), 1RM bench press strength (BP), push-ups to failure (PU), vertical jump (VJ), pro-agility shuttle time (AG), peak power output (P), lean body mass (LBM), fat mass (FM), and thigh muscle mass (TMM). Subjects were placed and monitored on an isocaloric diet consisting of 25 protein, 50 carbohydrates, and 25 % fat by a registered dietitian. Separate two-way mixed factorial repeated measures ANOVA’s (time [Pre, Post] x group [MT and PLA] were used to investigate strength, body composition, and other performance changes. Post-hoc tests were applied as appropriate. Analysis were performed via SPSS with significance at (p ≤ 0.05). Results: There was a significant main effect (F(1,16) = 33.30, p < 0.001) for LBM where MT significantly increased LBM when compared to the PLA group (p<0.001). Additionally, there was a significant main effect for LP (F(1,16) =666. 74, p <0.001) and BP (F(1,16) = 126.36, p < 0.001) where both increased significantly more in MT than PLA group (p <0. 001). No significant differences between MT and PLA were noted for FM, TMM, VJ, AG, P, or PU. Conclusion: The results of this eight week trial suggest that the addition of MaxxTOR® to a 3-day per week resistance training program can positively impact LBM and strength beyond the results found with exercise alone. Keywords: Phospholipid, Muscle protein synthesis, Hypertrophy, Lean body mass, Fat mass
 
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muscleupcrohn said:
Well, the dose in grams should remain the same for powder as with granules, assuming their the same thing, just one is a powder. Some say de-oiled (which is good, the granules/powder has more PA than liquid lecithin), and some are standardized for a minimum total phosphatidites, which is also nice. However, you should be looking at 4-7% PA from lecithin granules/powder. With that in mind, to be sure you get 750mg PA (the studied dose) you want at least 18.75g lecithin, which would give you between 750-1312mg PA. For the granules, that's about 2.5tbsp. The powder may need a little less, as it'd be tighter packed, but I'm not sure.
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I checked and the powder is de-oiled, so based on your statement that is a plus. They did say that the de-oil process used acetone, is that common?

I am still waiting to hear back on the phosphatidites content (standardized or not).

My experiences with it so far are good. I took 1 TBS last night and noticed increased vascularity. Some veins that I could just see before (under the skin) where now visible in relief and other new veins made a temporary appearance. But when I used it 1 TBS in my PWO today I did not notice as pronounced an increase in vascularity. I also added it to my post shake, so will see how it all feels later this afternoon. All in all I had a pretty good workout. I will be bumping up to the 2 TBS probably tomorrow (non-workout day) to see how it treats me (or more specifically my stomach).

Thanks for all of the great information and advice.
 
Sparkss said:
Found the study, reposting it here in case anyone else "new" needs it:

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At least I think that is the study you (and others) are referring to. Please let me know if I linked to the wrong one.

It does say 750mg ed. I am reading up the study to see if they split that dosage across two times or just one massive one :)
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450mg Pre, 300mg Post (or something close - going off memory). Non-Training days was AM/PM. But the new Spaniard/MaxxTor study just used one 750mg dose IIRC (still reading the full study) - so 'all at once' may be fine too.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
450mg Pre, 300mg Post (or something close - going off memory). Non-Training days was AM/PM. But the new Spaniard/MaxxTor study just used one 750mg dose IIRC (still reading the full study) - so 'all at once' may be fine too.
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There's more data that supports all at once dosing
 
The_Old_Guy said:
450mg Pre, 300mg Post (or something close - going off memory). Non-Training days was AM/PM. But the new Spaniard/MaxxTor study just used one 750mg dose IIRC (still reading the full study) - so 'all at once' may be fine too.
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Spaniard said:
There's more data that supports all at once dosing
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Thanks. I am going to be trying an all-at-once dose tomorrow (already hit my dosage totals for today). Thanks for all of the feedback :)
 
As far as I can remember all at once should be best ( one hour PWO) as training does shuttle the PA into the muscle cells, but , as in my case , if the GI cant handle that amount, divided around the training is also ok , if I remember correctly PA has a bioavailability of around 7 hours. I do a spoonfull of SL 3 , 2 and 1 hour before training to be sure to get a minimum of 750mg PA
 
Lynks8 said:
Same.

1. 3tbsp all at once with preworkout
2. wait 15 minutes
3. drop a deuce
4. go to gym
.
.
.
gainz


Thanks for the study, Spaniard. Reading right meow.
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Is (the #2 in) #3 due to the PWO, SL, both or neither (just normal)?
 
Sparkss said:
Is (the #2 in) #3 due to the PWO, SL, both or neither (just normal)?
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a little from column A, a little from column B.

First and foremost, my body has simply acclimated to taking the Browns to the Super Bowl prewo. However, the pre workout supplement and SL do play a role.

Amongst other ingredients in pre workouts that may have an effect, caffeine stimulates peristalsis in the intestines/colon, and the choline content in SL certainly contributes to honking out a dirt snake.

Alls I knows is, no one wants to be prairie-doggin' it between sets. I <3 my ****-inducing supp routine.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
You want to try something? :D

35g Sodium Bicarbonate
3 Tbs Instant Coffee
2 Tbs SL

:D :D :D

(To be fair, SL only gives me gas, never needed a pitstop. The other two however.....!!!!!!)
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**** city lmao!
 
The_Old_Guy said:
You want to try something? :D

35g Sodium Bicarbonate
3 Tbs Instant Coffee
2 Tbs SL

:D :D :D

(To be fair, SL only gives me gas, never needed a pitstop. The other two however.....!!!!!!)
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Thats why I dropped SL....due to bad gas ans annoying strong aftertaste. I could kill someone with that gas lol
 
Will add pa,creatine, tmg is as good as it gets for maybe $20/month at proper doses. Tough to beat from a cell volume level and vascularity. Please add on if I missed anything.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
On Bench, Dead, and Squat Days - Yup. One hour Pre according to the research.
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^^^This guy is in the know : )

For those with gastro distress at such high doses, loading over time has similar effects:

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The_Old_Guy said:
On Bench, Dead, and Squat Days - Yup. One hour Pre according to the research.
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Interesting. I will have to give that a shot.

On topic: I recently switched over to NOW granules from Fearn and have noticed no difference in efficacy, but less gas, weirdly.
 
ma70 said:
It uses Mediator PA at 750mg. It's the same as everything else.

And also, it's been verified to work by others.
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As one who bloats pretty bad from SL granules, $30 + BOGO is quite tempting. $15 for 4 weeks at 750mg/day.

Even at $30, that's quite a bit cheaper than other capped products, which is what's making me a little wary, as I have no experience with the brand... Just curious how they're able to hit that price point when comparable products are all $45 or more.
 
warpyfunch said:
As one who bloats pretty bad from SL granules, $30 + BOGO is quite tempting. $15 for 4 weeks at 750mg/day.

Even at $30, that's quite a bit cheaper than other capped products, which is what's making me a little wary...
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When it first came out, it was 99$. It's just cheaper nowadays. Plus, it uses Mediator. Pretty sure they're required to use the proper source at the proper studied amount to include it in their product.
 
ma70 said:
When it first came out, it was 99$. It's just cheaper nowadays. Plus, it uses Mediator. Pretty sure they're required to use the proper source at the proper studied amount to include it in their product.
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Well, I am easily convinced. Just grabbed 6 bottles for $96 including shipping.
 
ma70 said:
Correct. Although Epiq PA uses slightly different ingredients in unknown doses. (Longjack, Astralagus)
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Assuming the Epiq really has 750mg PA, I don't see much difference at all. (Not sure why the Epiq needed Ace-K though...)

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