I'm on Phosphatidic acid Ya'll

I know it's not much, but I'm debating as to whether or not go from 3 tbsp soy lecithin (~23g) to only 15g per day. I'm really trusting the science behind this and the fact that 'more is better', but as many calories as I can going to other food would be great too.
 
kpeaceoutbye said:
I know it's not much, but I'm debating as to whether or not go from 3 tbsp soy lecithin (~23g) to only 15g per day. I'm really trusting the science behind this and the fact that 'more is better', but as many calories as I can going to other food would be great too.
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Personally, I'd go with at least 18.75g. That way you're getting 750mg PA even if you calculate it with the low 4% PA content.
 
machinehead said:
I went through 9lb of the Lekithos sunflower lecithin. For the most part I ran 2g PA per day but I also went up to 4g as tangible effects diminished after the first 5lb. I've been off it for 2 weeks to get to evaluate Clear Muscle solo and I haven't missed it.

Now that I got (2) Phospha Muscle I will add some after the 6th week on Clear Muscle to see what changes if anything. It maybe that I am better off cycling PA as both my runs (6 months apart, coming off a cut) worked tremendously the first 2 months. Not untypical for my body to get used to stuff quickly.
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Clear muscle is a waste of time and money
 
This is not directed at fightnews or anyone else in particular, but a (***gy) routine centered around rest periods, light weights and once-per-week frequency cannot let the efficacy of HMB FA shine.

I am currently using Smolov's formula for the base squat mesocycle to plan my routine around. It is the 4X9 at 70% 1RM, 5X7 at 75% 1RM etc except that I don't do that 4 days a week, I spread them over 2 weeks, hitting back, chest, shoulder and triceps twice a week (using only 1 exercise!), then deadlifts, squats and biceps once a week. The results are as good as they were when I used it for squats only. At my level I can only expect to add a pound or three of muscle an year and I am over my annual 'quota' already. In my case HMB FA, just like PA before it, makes it easier and more fun to do my routine. My reps, sets and weights are fixed every week, I know that by just compelting what's planned I cannot not progress, with or without supplements. I just prefer doing it with.
 
machinehead said:
This is not directed at fightnews or anyone else in particular, but a (***gy) routine centered around rest periods, light weights and once-per-week frequency cannot let the efficacy of HMB FA shine.

I am currently using Smolov's formula for the base squat mesocycle to plan my routine around. It is the 4X9 at 70% 1RM, 5X7 at 75% 1RM etc except that I don't do that 4 days a week, I spread them over 2 weeks, hitting back, chest, shoulder and triceps twice a week (using only 1 exercise!), then deadlifts, squats and biceps once a week. The results are as good as they were when I used it for squats only. At my level I can only expect to add a pound or three of muscle an year and I am over my annual 'quota' already. In my case HMB FA, just like PA before it, makes it easier and more fun to do my routine. My reps, sets and weights are fixed every week, I know that by just compelting what's planned I cannot not progress, with or without supplements. I just prefer doing it with.
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For me, HMB FA worked very well. More strength and size without changing workout routine or diet.
 
machinehead said:
This is not directed at fightnews or anyone else in particular, but a (***gy) routine centered around rest periods, light weights and once-per-week frequency cannot let the efficacy of HMB FA shine.

I am currently using Smolov's formula for the base squat mesocycle to plan my routine around. It is the 4X9 at 70% 1RM, 5X7 at 75% 1RM etc except that I don't do that 4 days a week, I spread them over 2 weeks, hitting back, chest, shoulder and triceps twice a week (using only 1 exercise!), then deadlifts, squats and biceps once a week. The results are as good as they were when I used it for squats only. At my level I can only expect to add a pound or three of muscle an year and I am over my annual 'quota' already. In my case HMB FA, just like PA before it, makes it easier and more fun to do my routine. My reps, sets and weights are fixed every week, I know that by just compelting what's planned I cannot not progress, with or without supplements. I just prefer doing it with.
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This. I've ran HMB-FA multiple times since it first came out (both a sponsored log with the study training-protocol, and multiple runs myself with varying training protocols). I've found that if I do my "normal" or "light" style of training (8-16 sets for each body part, 1-2 times per week), HMB-FA doesn't really do much of anything for me, and definitely isn't worth the money, but if I have the time (usually vacations and breaks) to up my frequency to hit each muscle 3-4x per week, I progress much faster. Since I typically try to add a bit of weight on the bar and aim for the same number of reps each workout, if I can do this 3-4x per week instead of 1-2x per week, that's the potential for a lot more weight added on the bar, and I've found that I am able to progress much faster when I do this style of training with HMB-FA, and adding at least 750mg PA (from ANY source) really lets me get stronger much faster than I normally do.

HMB-FA is expensive though, so now I only used it when I feel that it will benefit me the most. Other times, I'll replace HMB-FA with HICA, as I managed to pick up enough for a long time at a very good price.

PS has also been shown to help with LBM during an overreaching phase, and also seems to have some of the same benefits as PA, but PS isn't exactly cheap either, although I would like to run an overreaching style program with high (>750mg) doses of PS as well as some extra PA.
 
Yes it is. The term is necrosis of the lower jawbone and is temporary but I cant explain how its related to either HMB or leucine. No matter how many studies I have read.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I typically try to add a bit of weight on the bar and aim for the same number of reps each workout, if I can do this 3-4x per week instead of 1-2x per week, that's the potential for a lot more weight added on the bar, and I've found that I am able to progress much faster when I do this style of training with HMB-FA, and adding at least 750mg PA (from ANY source) really lets me get stronger much faster than I normally do.
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I find this boring and counterproductive now, interestingly. It worked when I did DC before when the usual low-weight, high number of sets routine did not but now I just prefer cycling the intensity and therefore only adding weight for the same number of reps in 2-week blocks. It is much more fun this way too. Today was 10 sets of 3 for chest and triceps, plus some deadifts. Tuesday I will repeat the chest and triceps part but with 4 sets of 9 with 10 more lbs than I did 2 weeks ago on the same 4x9. Saturday same with 5x7 etc.

I laughed out loud when I read the part starting from "You are in the LP group"

Invalid Link Removed

This is so me now

muscleupcrohn said:
HMB-FA is expensive though
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Thirty bucks on ebay. A bit more expensive than Ergonine but lots more worth it to me.
 
machinehead said:
I find this boring and counterproductive now, interestingly. It worked when I did DC before when the usual low-weight, high number of sets routine did not but now I just prefer cycling the intensity and therefore only adding weight for the same number of reps in 2-week blocks. It is much more fun this way too. Today was 10 sets of 3 for chest and triceps, plus some deadifts. Tuesday I will repeat the chest and triceps part but with 4 sets of 9 with 10 more lbs than I did 2 weeks ago on the same 4x9. Saturday same with 5x7 etc.

I laughed out loud when I read the part starting from "You are in the LP group"

Invalid Link Removed

This is so me now



Thirty bucks on ebay. A bit more expensive than Ergonine but lots more worth it to me.
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Interesting read. I haven't taken E9 since I ran out of the few tubs I bought when it was first launched. I still do take some daily bulk supplements (creatine, betaine, beta alanine, and sometimes LCLT), but that ends up being cheaper than E9, and I have never noticed anything from HICA when I'm taking HMB-FA (nothing against E9 though, its' a great product). I've only been getting to the gym a few times a week lately, so I'm going to wait until I have more time to hit the gym (I'm thinking late November or early December) to give HMB-FA another run (and I'm pretty sure I have at least 1 bottle in my cabinet now).
 
I've had some great gains in strength, lean muscle mass, recovery, energy/mood with clear muscle. Only weird side to report is having a hard time getting to sleep from excess energy. Despite this I still wake up rearing to go. Currently stacking clear muscle with bio-gro, loving the accelerated recovery and feeling pumped all day.
 
Woody said:
Does anyone know how much PS comes in SL? It's not labeled on Fearn SL.
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Whats up Woody,

Soy Lecitihin is standardized and has about 5900mg of PS per every 100g, with phosphatidylserine accounting for about 3% of total phospholipids in soy lecithin.

Regards,

PS. Keep your eyes out for our new PA product ; )
 
Woody said:
So 4 tbsp of SL is 30g which is ~ 2000 mg of PS?
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I think its 1770mg if my math is correct. 30g is 30% of 100g, so 5900 x 0.30 = 1770mg

Generally 300-500mg is used for cognitive enhancement/nootropic. I've seen athletic performance studies use up to 750mg with success showing time to exhaustion increased by 29+/-8% when cycling at 85% intensity.

Another human study showed 600mg daily for 12 weeks had no adverse effects.

Reference:

Kingsley MI, et al Effects of phosphatidylserine on exercise capacity during cycling in active males . Med Sci Sports Exerc. (2006)

Jorissen BL, et al Safety of soy-derived phosphatidylserine in elderly people . Nutr Neurosci. (2002)
 
kboxer7 said:
I think its 1770mg if my math is correct. 30g is 30% of 100g, so 5900 x 0.30 = 1770mg

Generally 300-500mg is used for cognitive enhancement/nootropic. I've seen athletic performance studies use up to 750mg with success showing time to exhaustion increased by 29+/-8% when cycling at 85% intensity.

Another human study showed 600mg daily for 12 weeks had no adverse effects.

Reference:

Kingsley MI, et al Effects of phosphatidylserine on exercise capacity during cycling in active males . Med Sci Sports Exerc. (2006)

Jorissen BL, et al Safety of soy-derived phosphatidylserine in elderly people . Nutr Neurosci. (2002)
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Will that high of a dose still have a positive impact on lowering cortisol?
 
Woody said:
Will that high of a dose still have a positive impact on lowering cortisol?
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No clue tbh.

I don't think I'd rely on PS as the driving force to lower cortisol though. Just think of it as a possible extra benefit if you are already using soy granuals.
 
kboxer7 said:
Whats up Woody,

Soy Lecitihin is standardized and has about 5900mg of PS per every 100g, with phosphatidylserine accounting for about 3% of total phospholipids in soy lecithin.

Regards,
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Soy lecithin is NOT standardized for PS, it is standardized for total phosphatides, if anything (maybe that's what you meant, if so, my bad).

It turns out that multiple companies who sell the lecithin have the following to say about the PS content of their granules:

LEF:
We apologize that phosphatidylserine is not listed on the product breakdown. In fact, there is no measurable amount of phosphatidylserine in our Lecithin granules.
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Optima:
Our Lecithin is sold primarily as a source of phosphatidyl choline and therefore we do not include the phosphatidylserine information on our product packaging. However, independent analysis of the raw material shows that the typical value per 10.5 serving size is approximately 42mg.
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I have a very detailed product specification sheet from Global River for their lecithin granules, which are standardized for 97% phosphatides.
The following are the ranges listed for various phospholipids (I think it's safe to assume that they'll be in line with other 97% phosphatide lecithin granules):
PC: 18-25%
PI: 14-19%
PE: 10-16%
PA: 4-7%
PS: Not tested for

It looks like there's really not going to be any relevant amount of PS in these granules from what I've seen.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Soy lecithin is NOT standardized for PS, it is standardized for total phosphatides, if anything (maybe that's what you meant, if so, my bad).

It turns out that multiple companies who sell the lecithin have the following to say about the PS content of their granules:

LEF:

Optima:


I have a very detailed product specification sheet from Global River for their lecithin granules, which are standardized for 97% phosphatides.
The following are the ranges listed for various phospholipids (I think it's safe to assume that they'll be in line with other 97% phosphatide lecithin granules):
PC: 18-25%
PI: 14-19%
PE: 10-16%
PA: 4-7%
PS: Not tested for

It looks like there's really not going to be any relevant amount of PS in these granules from what I've seen.
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That is odd...I pulled my info from the following scholarly journal:

The following text cites the reported range of components in Soy Lecithin is detail:

"Closely related to PE is phosphatidylserine (PS), found in soybean lecithin by Van Handel (35). Negishi et al' (36)
reported 5.9% PS in commercial soybean lecithin"

100g x 5.9% = 5900mg

Scholfield, C.R. (October 1981). "Composition of Soybean Lecithin". Journal of the American Oil Chemists' Society 58 (10): 890. doi:10.1007/bf02659652. Retrieved 23 August 2014

EDIT:

Another study previously cited in my first post showed that PS typically comprises 3% of total phospholipids.
 
kboxer7 said:
That is odd...I pulled my info from the following scholarly journal:

The following text cites the reported range of components in Soy Lecithin is detail:

Scholfield, C.R. (October 1981). "Composition of Soybean Lecithin". Journal of the American Oil Chemists' Society 58 (10): 890. doi:10.1007/bf02659652. Retrieved 23 August 2014
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I know, I originally figured a decent PS content from multiple papers, but now the companies are claiming otherwise. There's a multi-page thread on it on another forum. Regardless, PA is consistent with the research, as is PC, so I'd just advise taking the granules as a PA supplement, with the added bonus of choline (adjust other supplemental choline accordingly), and not really even factor PS into the equation. If the companies are wrong and there is a decent PS content, that's just another bonus, but I wouldn't rely on the granules as a reliable source of PS at this point.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I know, I originally figured a decent PS content from multiple papers, but now the companies are claiming otherwise. There's a multi-page thread on it on another forum. Regardless, PA I'd consistent with the research, as is PC, so I'd just advise taking the granules as a PA supplement, with the added bonus of choline (adjust other supplemental choline accordingly), and not really even factor PS into the equation. If the companies are wrong and there is a decent PS content, that's just another bonus, but I wouldn't rely on the granules as a reliable source of PS at this point.
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Agreed. Appreciate you sharing the replies from the manufacturers man.
 
wouldn't Source Naturals, Lecithin, 1,200 mg be good?
I've found it on herb and i prefer soft gels than natural SL.. but PA is not listed on their label
 
Qonix said:
wouldn't Source Naturals, Lecithin, 1,200 mg be good?
I've found it on herb and i prefer soft gels than natural SL.. but PA is not listed on their label
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Highly unlikely.

The amount of lecithin gel caps you would have to consume to get the proper amt of PA would be astronomical.

Keep your eyes open for our new PA/Ergogenic product
 
Qonix said:
So unfortunate the only alternative to assume easily pa is to spend 50$ on some phospha things
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The problem is that concentrated PA is very costly and that cost inevitably gets passed down to the consumer. In the case of PA you end up having to pay $50 or whatever on a low/moderate dose of PA for a month.

As Woody pointed out, keep your eye open for the new PA/ergogenic prodcut from OL. Its not just a PA product, but a marrying of ergogenics + PA and other goodies that will taste a heck of a lot better than choking down plain old granuals for months on end.
 
kboxer7 said:
The problem is that concentrated PA is very costly and that cost inevitably gets passed down to the consumer. In the case of PA you end up having to pay $50 or whatever on a low/moderate dose of PA for a month.

As Woody pointed out, keep your eye open for Phosphas1ze from OL. Its not just a PA product, but a marrying of ergogenics + PA and other goodies that will taste a heck of a lot better than choking down plain old granuals for months on end.
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I'm still hoping that Phosphas1ze is using a more concentrated PA source than plain old lecithin granules that just have a third party standardized minimum PA content that's in line with the range that de-oiled soy lecithin standardized for high % phosphatides has anyway. We'll see; I actually enjoyed grinding up my lecithin granules with my pre-workout and then mixing the resulting powder in a shaker bottle. It didn't taste oily, didn't have any clumps, and still tasted pretty good. I think that may be my new way to take the granules on workout days from now on.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I'm still hoping that Phosphas1ze is using a more concentrated PA source than plain old lecithin granules that just have a third party standardized minimum PA content that's in line with the range that de-oiled soy lecithin standardized for high % phosphatides has anyway. We'll see; I actually enjoyed grinding up my lecithin granules with my pre-workout and then mixing the resulting powder in a shaker bottle. It didn't taste oily, didn't have any clumps, and still tasted pretty good. I think that may be my new way to take the granules on workout days from now on.
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I hate sl just for calories reasons
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I'm still hoping that Phosphas1ze is using a more concentrated PA source than plain old lecithin granules that just have a third party standardized minimum PA content that's in line with the range that de-oiled soy lecithin standardized for high % phosphatides has anyway. We'll see; I actually enjoyed grinding up my lecithin granules with my pre-workout and then mixing the resulting powder in a shaker bottle. It didn't taste oily, didn't have any clumps, and still tasted pretty good. I think that may be my new way to take the granules on workout days from now on.
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Grind them. Genius.
 
Fearn SL... Serving size is 2 level tablespoons (15g). But one tablespoon is 15g, right. There's 30 servings per container and 454g/15 is 30.2.

So, does that mean per 2 tbsp of Fearn SL I'm getting 2x what the label says? Invalid Link Removed
 
Woody said:
Grind them. Genius.
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I've found that just grinding them into a powder and trying to mix that alone still doesn't work too well; it still results in an oily drink with little flakes of lecithin floating at the top until it dissolves, and then it's still oily. However, it seems that mixing the granule powder with a pre-workout supplement (I have yet to try it with just bulk powders) BEFORE adding water (so the two powders are homogenous), then adding the water and and mixing the final supplement yields a much better drink that's still pretty tasty and a good consistency.

I have to admit, chugging down the granules normally gets to be a bit of a chore after a while for sure.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I've found that just grinding them into a powder and trying to mix that alone still doesn't work too well; it still results in an oily drink with little flakes of lecithin floating at the top until it dissolves, and then it's still oily. However, it seems that mixing the granule powder with a pre-workout supplement (I have yet to try it with just bulk powders) BEFORE adding water (so the two powders are homogenous), then adding the water and and mixing the final supplement yields a much better drink that's still pretty tasty and a good consistency.

I have to admit, chugging down the granules normally gets to be a bit of a chore after a while for sure.
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I've been throwing unground granules in my PWO or mixing it with yogurt. Both are awful. The things we do for results
 
Woody said:
I've been throwing unground granules in my PWO or mixing it with yogurt. Both are awful. The things we do for results
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Haha. It got to a point where I almost gagged a bit just thinking about granules for a little while. For that reason, I usually ended up taking some time off the granules every few weeks, which sucks, because I make more gains when I'm on PA for sure. I'm going to see what happens if I grind and blend the granules with my daily bulk supplements (creatine, beta alanine, etc). I think it may mix well, but I think it may still taste unpleasant unflavored. I do have some stevia powder and natural flavor powder I may add to make it tollerable. I'm out of Ergonine, but I think grinding/mixing the granules with E9 would work well.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Haha. It got to a point where I almost gagged a bit just thinking about granules for a little while. For that reason, I usually ended up taking some time off the granules every few weeks, which sucks, because I make more gains when I'm on PA for sure. I'm going to see what happens if I grind and blend the granules with my daily bulk supplements (creatine, beta alanine, etc). I think it may mix well, but I think it may still taste unpleasant unflavored. I do have some stevia powder and natural flavor powder I may add to make it tollerable. I'm out of Ergonine, but I think grinding/mixing the granules with E9 would work well.
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I do gag, hah. I have to do the fist clench trick to get it down. Definitely not the easiest supplement to get down. I think I'd rather drink flavored cough syrup.
 
Woody said:
I do gag, hah. I have to do the fist clench trick to get it down. Definitely not the easiest supplement to get down. I think I'd rather drink flavored cough syrup.
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I'm still not sure which I dislike drinking more, lecithin granules or spirilina powder. Both are awesome supplements, and cheap too, but taking them is almost a workout itself, haha. I ran out of my spirilina tabs; so much better than powder.
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I'm still hoping that Phosphas1ze is using a more concentrated PA source than plain old lecithin granules that just have a third party standardized minimum PA content that's in line with the range that de-oiled soy lecithin standardized for high % phosphatides has anyway. We'll see; I actually enjoyed grinding up my lecithin granules with my pre-workout and then mixing the resulting powder in a shaker bottle. It didn't taste oily, didn't have any clumps, and still tasted pretty good. I think that may be my new way to take the granules on workout days from now on.
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You say this (that you want a higher PA concentrate), but then say you care about total servings and price. I know the consumer wants it all, but its impossible to have a higher PA concentrate product without driving up the cost since there would be waste product involved in order to get a higher PA concentrate product.

We didn't just test the PA content we tested for all phosphatide content, in regards to Phosphatidylserine there is 114mg per serve.

I think everyone will appreciate the approach we took when we release the entirety of the formula. I think its an understatement to say "just has third party standardized minimum PA content." Knowing how much PA you're getting per serve or of any other ingredient is a very important thing or at least should be.
 
Olympus Labs said:
You say this (that you want a higher PA concentrate), but then say you care about total servings and price. I know the consumer wants it all, but its impossible to have a higher PA concentrate product without driving up the cost since there would be waste product involved in order to get a higher PA concentrate product.

We didn't just test the PA content we tested for all phosphatide content, in regards to Phosphatidylserine there is 114mg per serve.

I think everyone will appreciate the approach we took when we release the entirety of the formula. I think its an understatement to say "just has third party standardized minimum PA content." Knowing how much PA you're getting per serve or of any other ingredient is a very important thing or at least should be.
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Lets also make it clear that it is much much more than just a PA supplement. In fact, this have been formulated to synergise with PA to maximise mTOR activation. As well as targeting a number of other pathways.
 
NoAddedHmones said:
Lets also make it clear that it is much much more than just a PA supplement. In fact, this have been formulated to synergise with PA to maximise mTOR activation. As well as targeting a number of other pathways.
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kinda sounds like this is gonna compete with Ergonine
 
Olympus Labs said:
You say this (that you want a higher PA concentrate), but then say you care about total servings and price. I know the consumer wants it all, but its impossible to have a higher PA concentrate product without driving up the cost since there would be waste product involved in order to get a higher PA concentrate product.

We didn't just test the PA content we tested for all phosphatide content, in regards to Phosphatidylserine there is 114mg per serve.

I think everyone will appreciate the approach we took when we release the entirety of the formula. I think its an understatement to say "just has third party standardized minimum PA content." Knowing how much PA you're getting per serve or of any other ingredient is a very important thing or at least should be.
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Alright, maybe I wasn't being very clear with my statements. I'll try to make sense this time:

Benefits of Concentrated PA compared to soy lecithin granules:
-Less calories and fat (this benefit is negated if you're using the same amount of lecithin, just with stricter individual phosphatide testing, no?)
-Less chance of stomach upset (again, wouldn't this benefit be negated if you're taking the same large serving of lecithin?)
-More enjoyable to drink (although I'm sure that you guys will be able to make it mix well and taste good even with plain old lecithin granules)
-Knowing exactly how much of a given phosphatide you're getting (although I still argue that you're going to get >/4% PA from de-oiled lecithin granules standardized for min 97% phosphatides).

I don't think this conversation is really going to go anywhere meaningful until the formula is released, so I don't want to beat a dead horse. I'm not a betting man, but I still think it'd be a safe bet that if I gave a sample of de-oiled soy lecithin granules standardized for 97% phosphatides (the American Lecithin Company has 98% standardization) to an independent lab for testing, it'd confirm that there's at least 4% PA. Perhaps you can elaborate a bit more, or perhaps I'll have to wait until you release more information on the product, but if you're using soy lecithin (not an extract or something enriched with PA), I don't see how any amount of testing is going to make the composition meaningfully different than the natural composition of lecithin standardized for 98% phosphatides.

But, again, I can't say anything for sure about the product until I see the label, so we'll see. :)

And, of course, if you're using regular lecithin but not charging an exorbitant amount, and can make it taste and mix well, then I guess there's nothing to complain about. I just have no idea what else you're putting in the product, or what the price is going to be. I'm very curious though!
 
Woody said:
Fearn SL... Serving size is 2 level tablespoons (15g). But one tablespoon is 15g, right. There's 30 servings per container and 454g/15 is 30.2.

So, does that mean per 2 tbsp of Fearn SL I'm getting 2x what the label says?
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No! Stuff is fluffy so 2 level tablespoons are 15g, just like it says on the label.
 
Woody said:
Fearn SL... Serving size is 2 level tablespoons (15g). But one tablespoon is 15g, right. There's 30 servings per container and 454g/15 is 30.2.

So, does that mean per 2 tbsp of Fearn SL I'm getting 2x what the label says?
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As above, the stuff is airy and round. I just weighed 1 level Tbs on a tared out 'My Weigh' 440-Z and got 9g. So two level Tbs is ~18g. Rounded scoops would be even more. I'd say 2 rounded scoops would give you at least 750mg of PA, if you assume the worst case 4% PA standardization.
 
tyga tyga said:
What's the consensus on fearns liquid lecithin?
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Also curious if anyone has tried the liquid.

Was just at the store and saw it there. Quick google search did not reveal much info on the PA content of the liquid.
 
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