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Best OTC AI

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mr.cooper69 said:
This is my first time looking at letrone, but I'm a little shocked no one has pointed this out yet...


"The results indicated that atractylenolide I (1),
atractylenolide II (2) and atractylenolide III (3) had inhibition ratios of 94.56 ± 0.70%,
90.93 ± 1.41% and 86.31 ± 8.46%, respectively, at a concentration of 10 μM. "

So you need a concentration of 10 uM to get this strong AI effect. The writeup lists isolated absorption data, but does not speak to subsequent metabolism. Thankfully, there is a paper showing what happens to the compound after it is administered:

Invalid Link Removed

Cmax is the MAXIMUM concentration achieved after dosing. The dose was 20g/kg in rats, equivalent to 260 grams in a 180 lb person.

The Cmax at this dose was 7.99 ug/L, which means the molar concentration was 0.035 uM. This concentration is 300 times less than the concentration shown to have AI effects (and keep in mind, 0.035 uM is the MAXIMUM concentration). Assuming linear pharmacokinetics, you would need:

300 (the factor by which the concentration is too low) x 260g (the dose administered to get this concentration).

This would mean that to get the results advertised in this thread/the product writeup, you would need to take 78,000 grams of pure atractylenolide. For most people, that would mean eating your entire body weight in pure compound. Take into account that letrone is an extract and not the pure compound, and you're probably looking at 100kg+ of this compound in one sitting.

The study also showed a halflife of 2 hours. This cannot even be remotely compared to aromasin (bioactive life 72 hours), arimidex (48-72 hours), etc...

1 MILLIGRAM of arimidex every 3 days would have a similar effect to eating 100,000 grams of letrone's active compound every 2 hours.

To even say that letrone can help control estrogen in people taking aromatizing compounds is frankly very irresponsible. We're talking about people here, not just numbers on a sales sheet.
Click to expand...

VERY interesting. I'm going to take some time to really read thru those studies. I had a hell of a time just trying to find out the half life last time I looked into it.
 
kboxer7 said:
VERY interesting. I'm going to take some time to really read thru those studies. I had a hell of a time just trying to find out the half life last time I looked into it.
Click to expand...

Here's everything, a full well-conducted LC/MS pharmacokinetic study, which is the gold standard in medicine for uncovering in vivo PK crtieria:

Quantitative analysis of atractylenolide I in rat plasma by LC-MS/MS method and its application to pharmacokinetic study

(Invalid Link Removed)
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Here's everything, a full well-conducted LC/MS pharmacokinetic study, which is the gold standard in medicine for uncovering in vivo PK crtieria:

Quantitative analysis of atractylenolide I in rat plasma by LC-MS/MS method and its application to pharmacokinetic study

(Invalid Link Removed)
Click to expand...

These last two of yours have been extremely interesting, I truly appreciate when studies are posted. I'm going to start reading this now!
 
I think it really raises reg flags when people start recommending supplements in place of RX AIs on cycle or recommending a "natural serm" in place of Nolvadex/Clomid for PCT after heavy cycles. Im all for 'innovation' but the claims at-least should be kept within Dietary Supplements and not recommending in place of or comparing them to prescription drugs...
 
Adizzle1 said:
I think it really raises reg flags when people start recommending supplements in place of RX AIs on cycle or recommending a "natural serm" in place of Nolvadex/Clomid for PCT after heavy cycles. Im all for 'innovation' but the claims at-least should be kept within Dietary Supplements and not recommending in place of or comparing them to prescription drugs...
Click to expand...

I agree. People like to think pharma is holding back and not giving us the best drugs in each category, but the reality (I have friends and family who work in the industry) is that pharm companies go at each other's necks to create the next best product. They literally hire spies to sit in on conferences and infiltrate other companies to get a headstart on new drug developments. With such fierce competition and literally billions spent on creating and discovering effective drugs, you can bet that nothing in nature can even come close to drugs.

I consider our R&D department, with 2 MDs and a PhD, to be one of the best in the industry (your mind would be blown at other companies' "R&D"). I know for me at least, I'm actively scanning a host of scientific journals every monthly issue for new compounds, mapping out molecular interactions to see downstream effects, verifying safety, etc... Most of the novel candidates we source are tested right away, and I often like to be the first tester since I can monitor vitals and labwork and play with doses. Then it goes on to more in-house testing and even then it's usually not approved.

Our approach is meticulous, but I'd be in dreamland if I stood here and said that our R&D efforts outperformed pharm companies with billion dollar budgets, gigantic labs across the world, and thousands of employees. They will always win in terms of HOW WELL THE COMPOUND DOES ITS JOB (side effects are a different story).
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Here's everything, a full well-conducted LC/MS pharmacokinetic study, which is the gold standard in medicine for uncovering in vivo PK crtieria:

Quantitative analysis of atractylenolide I in rat plasma by LC-MS/MS method and its application to pharmacokinetic study

(Invalid Link Removed)
Click to expand...

Thank you sir. Much appreciated.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
This is my first time looking at letrone, but I'm a little shocked no one has pointed this out yet...


"The results indicated that atractylenolide I (1),
atractylenolide II (2) and atractylenolide III (3) had inhibition ratios of 94.56 ± 0.70%,
90.93 ± 1.41% and 86.31 ± 8.46%, respectively, at a concentration of 10 μM. "

So you need a concentration of 10 uM to get this strong AI effect. The writeup lists isolated absorption data, but does not speak to subsequent metabolism. Thankfully, there is a paper showing what happens to the compound after it is administered:

Invalid Link Removed

Cmax is the MAXIMUM concentration achieved after dosing. The dose was 20g/kg in rats, equivalent to 260 grams in a 180 lb person.

The Cmax at this dose was 7.99 ug/L, which means the molar concentration was 0.035 uM. This concentration is 300 times less than the concentration shown to have AI effects (and keep in mind, 0.035 uM is the MAXIMUM concentration). Assuming linear pharmacokinetics, you would need:

300 (the factor by which the concentration is too low) x 260g (the dose administered to get this concentration).

This would mean that to get the results advertised in this thread/the product writeup, you would need to take 78,000 grams of pure atractylenolide. For most people, that would mean eating your entire body weight in pure compound. Take into account that letrone is an extract and not the pure compound, and you're probably looking at 100kg+ of this compound in one sitting.

The study also showed a halflife of 2 hours. This cannot even be remotely compared to aromasin (bioactive life 72 hours), arimidex (48-72 hours), etc...

1 MILLIGRAM of arimidex every 3 days would have a similar effect to eating 100,000 grams of letrone's active compound every 2 hours.

To even say that letrone can help control estrogen in people taking aromatizing compounds is frankly very irresponsible. We're talking about people here, not just numbers on a sales sheet.
Click to expand...

 
mr.cooper69 said:
I agree. People like to think pharma is holding back and not giving us the best drugs in each category, but the reality (I have friends and family who work in the industry) is that pharm companies go at each other's necks to create the next best product. They literally hire spies to sit in on conferences and infiltrate other companies to get a headstart on new drug developments. With such fierce competition and literally billions spent on creating and discovering effective drugs, you can bet that nothing in nature can even come close to drugs.

I consider our R&D department, with 2 MDs and a PhD, to be one of the best in the industry (your mind would be blown at other companies' "R&D"). I know for me at least, I'm actively scanning a host of scientific journals every monthly issue for new compounds, mapping out molecular interactions to see downstream effects, verifying safety, etc... Most of the novel candidates we source are tested right away, and I often like to be the first tester since I can monitor vitals and labwork and play with doses. Then it goes on to more in-house testing and even then it's usually not approved.

Our approach is meticulous, but I'd be in dreamland if I stood here and said that our R&D efforts outperformed pharm companies with billion dollar budgets, gigantic labs across the world, and thousands of employees. They will always win in terms of HOW WELL THE COMPOUND DOES ITS JOB (side effects are a different story).
Click to expand...

Can't argue with that.
 
Adex and Aromasin are over the counter you just gotta know what counter to go to lol.
 
brundel said:
ATD is an antiandrogen. It blocks testosterone and other androgens from binding to the androgen receptor. So...anything that prevents androgens from binding to the receptor is BAD news in my book.

Horm Behav. 1989 Mar;23(1):10-26.
Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding: a reexamination of the aromatization hypothesis.

Kaplan ME, McGinnis MY.

Department of Anatomy, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, CUNY, New York 10029.
Abstract

The aromatization hypothesis asserts that testosterone (T) must be aromatized to estradiol (E2) to activate copulatory behavior in the male rat. In support of this hypothesis, the aromatization inhibitor, ATD, has been found to suppress male sexual behavior in T-treated rats. In our experiment, we first replicated this finding by peripherally injecting ATD (15 mg/day) or propylene glycol into T-treated (two 10-mm Silastic capsules) or control castrated male rats. In a second experiment, we bilaterally implanted either ATD-filled or blank cannulae into the medial preoptic area (MPOA) of either T-treated or control castrated male rats. With this more local distribution of ATD, a lesser decline in sexual behavior was found, suggesting that other brain areas are involved in the neurohormonal activation of copulatory behavior in the male rat. To determine whether in vivo ATD interacts with androgen or estrogen receptors, we conducted cell nuclear androgen and estrogen receptor binding assays of hypothalamus, preoptic area, amygdala, and septum following treatment with the combinations of systemic T alone. ATD plus T, ATD alone, and blank control. In all four brain areas binding of T to androgen receptors was significantly decreased in the presence of ATD, suggesting that ATD may act both as an androgen receptor blocker and as an aromatization inhibitor. Competitive binding studies indicated that ATD competes in vitro for cytosol androgen receptors, thus substantiating the in vivo antiandrogenic effects of ATD. Cell nuclear estrogen receptor binding was not significantly increased by exposure to T in the physiological range. No agonistic properties of ATD were observed either behaviorally or biochemically. Thus, an alternative explanation for the inhibitory effects of ATD on male sexual behavior is that ATD prevents T from binding to androgen receptors.

PMID: 2925181 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

6oxo isnt terrible but its only available in the UK and its probably expensive.
I still think Letrone or Exotherm for the win.
Click to expand...

That's because atd is a steroidal aromatase inhibitor.
What a surprise androgens can bind with the androgen receptor.
Atd and its parent hormone, 1,4,6 testosterone will compete with other androgens for ar binding.
Formestane and its parent hormone 4-hydroxy testosterone also did this.
Loss of libido is very common for ai's from lowering estrogen too much.
Steroidal or non steroidal.
 
Adizzle1 said:
I think it really raises reg flags when people start recommending supplements in place of RX AIs on cycle or recommending a "natural serm" in place of Nolvadex/Clomid for PCT after heavy cycles. Im all for 'innovation' but the claims at-least should be kept within Dietary Supplements and not recommending in place of or comparing them to prescription drugs...
Click to expand...

Not to mention a single bottle of said products costs a lot more than Pharma stuff sourced from the right place. I feel sorry for all the people who have may suffer E2 problems on cycle as a result of trusting this OTC product. hopefully all have real AI's on hand.
 
I haven't looked, but I haven't seen any negative reviews standing out for letrone either, so if it doesn't work, are the blood work claims bogus, an results placebo?
Genuinely curious
 
jbryand101b said:
I haven't looked, but I haven't seen any negative reviews standing out for letrone either, so if it doesn't work, are the blood work claims bogus, an results placebo?
Genuinely curious
Click to expand...

I don't think there has been a whole lot of bloodwork posted thus far. Unless I'm mistaken.

Anecdotally it seems to work based on reviews. I had a decent experience with it but was only on a natty cycle at the time. I'm not convinced it is as strong as touted based on my experience, but am still hoping for the best.

Still have 1.75 bottles left...
 
chedapalooza said:
I'll have blood at the end of the month. Logging it. Starting e2 is 38. Taking nothing else what so ever for estrogen
Click to expand...

I look forward to seeing the blood work, it'll be interesting to see what effects it has in actual numbers and not anecdotal reports. Because I've heard there's blood work, but I've yet to see any.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
This is my first time looking at letrone, but I'm a little shocked no one has pointed this out yet...


"The results indicated that atractylenolide I (1),
atractylenolide II (2) and atractylenolide III (3) had inhibition ratios of 94.56 ± 0.70%,
90.93 ± 1.41% and 86.31 ± 8.46%, respectively, at a concentration of 10 μM. "

So you need a concentration of 10 uM to get this strong AI effect. The writeup lists isolated absorption data, but does not speak to subsequent metabolism. Thankfully, there is a paper showing what happens to the compound after it is administered:

Invalid Link Removed

Cmax is the MAXIMUM concentration achieved after dosing. The dose was 20g/kg in rats, equivalent to 260 grams in a 180 lb person.

The Cmax at this dose was 7.99 ug/L, which means the molar concentration was 0.035 uM. This concentration is 300 times less than the concentration shown to have AI effects (and keep in mind, 0.035 uM is the MAXIMUM concentration). Assuming linear pharmacokinetics, you would need:

300 (the factor by which the concentration is too low) x 260g (the dose administered to get this concentration).

This would mean that to get the results advertised in this thread/the product writeup, you would need to take 78,000 grams of pure atractylenolide. For most people, that would mean eating your entire body weight in pure compound. Take into account that letrone is an extract and not the pure compound, and you're probably looking at 100kg+ of this compound in one sitting.

The study also showed a halflife of 2 hours. This cannot even be remotely compared to aromasin (bioactive life 72 hours), arimidex (48-72 hours), etc...

1 MILLIGRAM of arimidex every 3 days would have a similar effect to eating 100,000 grams of letrone's active compound every 2 hours.

To even say that letrone can help control estrogen in people taking aromatizing compounds is frankly very irresponsible. We're talking about people here, not just numbers on a sales sheet.
Click to expand...

Thanks for this info.
 
Hastur said:
I look forward to seeing the blood work, it'll be interesting to see what effects it has in actual numbers and not anecdotal reports. Because I've heard there's blood work, but I've yet to see any.
Click to expand...

There are two that I know of. One of which was taken as a pct stack I believe with Rebirth and Viron. Although the the guy is now a rep for them, the bloodwork was posted before he became one. Think he was a beta tester
 
mechka_grizli said:
There are two that I know of. One of which was taken as a pct stack I believe with Rebirth and Viron. Although the the guy is now a rep for them, the bloodwork was posted before he became one. Think he was a beta tester
Click to expand...

I'd be interested in seeing this. Anyone have any links to bloodwork regarding Letrone?
 
Hastur said:
I'd be interested in seeing this. Anyone have any links to bloodwork regarding Letrone?
Click to expand...

On the phone app at the moment but if you check the BLR sub forum and the Letrone FAQ or Letrone announcement page I think, it is posted somewhere in there.
 
T-Bone said:
I thought you were doing a clomid restart or something.
Click to expand...

I did. I'm restarted. I have all the labs from beginning and middle levels.

Starting test 220
Starting e2 30

4 weeks
Test 734
E2 38

Added letrone, continuing clomid....
Retesting again end of September
 
Fantastic thread. Additional question for the group. Given that several naturally occurring AIs also inhibit other enzymes such as 17b-HSD-5, does anyone else have concerns that these OTC AIs may be inhibiting the conversion of some PHs or even indigenous androgens? To Coop's point, does anyone even have the capacity to test for this? Since much of the real research being done for natural AIs is being done to find alternatives in BC treatment, I can't image they even care if androgens are suppressed. In fact, it would be a good thing for BC if this happened.

Thanks in advanced for the groups thoughts and expertise.
 
really interesting on the letrone ingredient...
i know it is not a straight AI, but since it is usually recommended at the same time by the company behind letrone and somewhat tangential to the topic at hand, may i ask for opinions on the ellagic acid/cyclodextrin as a serm?
i have skimmed the study brundel posted that concluded it 'might be a natural alternative' in cancer management, but honestly i am in no way, shape or form qualified to interpret any studies and think i really understood whatever i just read. as far as i am aware, distribution to tissues is usually an issue with AI/serm compounds (there are estrogen sensitive cells in the brain, the bones etc besides the titties if i am not mistaken) and i do not remember seeing anything for ellagic acid, but then again, i am not an expert. can anyone shed some light on what science actually has to say?
thanks a lot guys!
 
mw1 said:
Did you read Coop's post?
Click to expand...

Looking at coops post I was wondering if there is blood work on using letrone solo not post anything an there are significant results it makes one wonder if something else is in the capsules or its all placebo an made up?

Idk would be cool to see some bsl play defense and back up their product
 
Now this is out in the open... Thanks to mrcooper69 for the blunt presentation of facts.

I also read this paper a little while back when I saw a question regarding the half life- I bit my tongue.
Using the area under the curve and the volume of distribution in a rat to human algorithm the half life is most likely about 2.5hours- stark difference compared to pharmaceutical reversible inhibitors anastrazole or letrozole. To be fair there is significant plasma protein binding (95%) which may extend this half life- however this is obsolete considering the concentration required for the potent aromatase inhibition and also the low volume of distribution coupled with the rapid elimination- which will mean that even with repeated dosing there would likely be no accumulation or capacity reach a steady state concentration (a fundamental PK requirement for reversible AIs).
Invalid Link Removed
 
In light of this, im thinking I should just not even bother with letrone and pick up some inhibit e to run alongside the clomid/ grab the adex from my buddy... Seems like letrone is a big waste and bust at this point.
 
chedapalooza said:
In light of this, im thinking I should just not even bother with letrone and pick up some inhibit e to run alongside the clomid/ grab the adex from my buddy... Seems like letrone is a big waste and bust at this point.
Click to expand...

Perhaps return the bottle and buy 3 Inhibit Es with the proceeds. I am very fond of the formula and will be more than enough to modulate E in your situation.
 
furion said:
when I saw a question regarding the half life- I bit my tongue.
Click to expand...

i believe i speak for almost all of us when i ask you to please never hold back again, you seem to be one of the most valuable posters on this entire board from what i have read.


and back to topic in general:
what are everyone's thoughts on acacetin and tracheloside? especially acacetin seems to be pretty strong in vitro (i believe it was linked somewhere in the alphadex writeup, but i cant seem to find it anymore), but i cannot read data in context like you furion and cooper people evidently can, so again i would be very grateful for an interpretation of the data out there.
 
Otheridstaken said:
I'm surprised there have been no rebuttals from the BLR crew.
Click to expand...

So am I. Having spent time and money on this product they should be in a position to back up their product without delay. Silence is not the best response in this case as it leaves room for doubt and speculation.
 
chedapalooza said:
In light of this, im thinking I should just not even bother with letrone and pick up some inhibit e to run alongside the clomid/ grab the adex from my buddy... Seems like letrone is a big waste and bust at this point.
Click to expand...

I disagree with this above statement. Letrone has been getting great reviews. And there is bloodwork out there. Some highly revered members have tried it and enjoyed it. In your case, you have already purchased the product and there are alot of people waiting on your bloodwork to see if it works.


goodvibes said:
Sometimes it's better not to. This is when you take your time to find good references if there's any.
Click to expand...

This. Responding prematurely could only make it worse. Coop and furion are highly knowledgeable and you gotta have ya $h!+ together before entering a scientific discussion with them



ucheoma said:
So am I. Having spent time and money on this product they should be in a position to back up their product without delay. Silence is not the best response in this case as it leaves room for doubt and speculation.
Click to expand...

It has only been 2 days. From what i've seen, Brundel doesn't shy away from discussion. Him and coop have had some discussions before which I enjoyed. Im sure something will be said
 
ucheoma said:
So am I. Having spent time and money on this product they should be in a position to back up their product without delay. Silence is not the best response in this case as it leaves room for doubt and speculation.
Click to expand...
Sorry for the absence of a BLR voice. I've been enjoying the holiday at the lake with my kids. Didn't want to waste precious family time with another rep battle. It was a great weekend:) ucheoma I am 100% sure you made many competing reps very happy when you posted about doubt and speculation! Exactly what they're aiming for. Look back @ post #52. Brundel made a post promoting Letrone. Nothing outrageous, just positive hype and marketing. Every post since then has been made by no less than 11 reps from 7 competitors(counting OL/OL UK, SNS/CEL separately). And a few post sprinkled in by unaffiliated members such as yourself starting to question us. Somewhat of a trend, no?
As far as Coops post, I thank him for bringing science into this. I'm always interested in research, but unfortunately I'm not a scientist and rely upon those smarter than I to disseminate the data into terms I can understand at times. It was interesting food for thought, but not conclusive of Letrone's or Atractylodes macrocephala's efficacy. It was a rat study from which he postulated numbers for human use which don't seem favorable. Maybe those numbers will ring true, maybe they won't. Use in humans versus rats can produce drastically different results. The only way I can determine a products efficacy is to use it or rely upon feedback of non-affiliated users. I have no idea how to dig up data or conduct experiments to contradict his theorized numbers extrapolated from a rat study.
Ultimately, I let a product convince me of it's worth. if Brundel wants to argue science he would be the better one to do it. I became a BLR fan and eventually a rep based on the products' results. BLR has yet to provide me with something that doesn't work.
Remember Follidrone? 60 page threads of these guys questioning and doubting it. Now they all have (-)-Epi products. Same with ingredients in Rebirth. That is being used now as well in another competing product. Wonder if the Atractylodes Macro will start appearing in others products as well? Time will tell.
User feedback from Letrone and Exotherm are outstanding. Read the logs. Look at the pics. This is the truth of a product working or not. So many things work well on paper but don't translate into real results or vice versa.
And...Have a fun and relaxing Labor Day everyone!
 
chedapalooza said:
In light of this, im thinking I should just not even bother with letrone and pick up some inhibit e to run alongside the clomid/ grab the adex from my buddy... Seems like letrone is a big waste and bust at this point.
Click to expand...
You've always seemed like like a positive and open minded member. I'm surprised that you won't let the product speak for itself. We can all benefit from unbiased user feedback. I had hoped that despite being an OL Rep you could still do that. I have used products from every single company trashing us right now. I still do. Still will...if they work for me. As a consumer, I benefit from companies competing and fighting to bring the best products and making each other better as a result. I do not benefit as a consumer from companies trashing each others' reputations.
 
Jebrook said:
Sorry for the absence of a BLR voice. I've been enjoying the holiday at the lake with my kids. Didn't want to waste precious family time with another rep battle. It was a great weekend:) ucheoma I am 100% sure you made many competing reps very happy when you posted about doubt and speculation! Exactly what they're aiming for. Look back @ post #52. Brundel made a post promoting Letrone. Nothing outrageous, just positive hype and marketing. Every post since then has been made by no less than 11 reps from 7 competitors(counting OL/OL UK, SNS/CEL separately). And a few post sprinkled in by unaffiliated members such as yourself starting to question us. Somewhat of a trend, no?
As far as Coops post, I thank him for bringing science into this. I'm always interested in research, but unfortunately I'm not a scientist and rely upon those smarter than I to disseminate the data into terms I can understand at times. It was interesting food for thought, but not conclusive of Letrone's or Atractylodes macrocephala's efficacy. It was a rat study from which he postulated numbers for human use which don't seem favorable. Maybe those numbers will ring true, maybe they won't. Use in humans versus rats can produce drastically different results. The only way I can determine a products efficacy is to use it or rely upon feedback of non-affiliated users. I have no idea how to dig up data or conduct experiments to contradict his theorized numbers extrapolated from a rat study.
Ultimately, I let a product convince me of it's worth. if Brundel wants to argue science he would be the better one to do it. I became a BLR fan and eventually a rep based on the products' results. BLR has yet to provide me with something that doesn't work.
Remember Follidrone? 60 page threads of these guys questioning and doubting it. Now they all have (-)-Epi products. Same with ingredients in Rebirth. That is being used now as well in another competing product. Wonder if the Atractylodes Macro will start appearing in others products as well? Time will tell.
User feedback from Letrone and Exotherm are outstanding. Read the logs. Look at the pics. This is the truth of a product working or not. So many things work well on paper but don't translate into real results or vice versa.
And...Have a fun and relaxing Labor Day everyone!
Click to expand...
No I think the companies were doubting the BS claims that were made with Follidrone, not necessarily the ingredients itself- a 700 % increase in test is not going to happen. Now the same with Letrone.....I'm sure blr will come out with more BS blood work but the science is not there PERIOD. Just another example of a company trying to make a killing off a cheap ingred
 
Jebrook said:
Same with ingredients in Rebirth. That is being used now as well in another competing product.
Click to expand...

that is not exactly true though is it? the primary ingredient is the ellagic acid cyclodextrin, which i have not seen anywhere else up until now (but maybe i missed it). olympus has a bit of e.cottonii in their new pct thingy, but from what i have gathered from reading the rebirth-thread brundel mostly added it in because it was super cheap and somewhat promising - he was kinda asked to do this because it was in BPS elimistane or however that product is called.
with a serm product, in my opinion, it is really somewhat hard to gauge effectiveness anecdotally because people usually recover well enough on their own (and more often than not dont get gyno in the process), its just safer & faster with a serm. and on the other hand, even if someone used it and got gyno it would not necessarily mean that the ellagic acid did not do its job because sometimes (albeit rarely) that just seems to happen regardless, e.g. when you discontinue too early, dont dose high enough, already have a bit of titty tissue (which you did not notice) because you didnt start your serm early enough which then continues to grow after you stopped all the ai/serm stuff etc etc etc. so to be sure, you really do need data with all the relevant endpoints looked at i think (how strong is it in bone, brain, uterus, tits, how much effect does it have at each point, how much reaches there reliably, half life, how long to dose until there is enough receptor blockage and so on). i am sure most people on this board know more about this stuff than i do though, so maybe i am plain wrong here.

letrone should be a lot easier to judge, just establish a baseline (i.e. let some time pass and clear up issues you might have if you have done anything about your hormones recently), get bloodwork, run the letrone solo, get bloodwork again, repeat with several people. i have not checked the logs intensively, but the bloods i remember were in conjunction with viron, and to my knowledge a part of that acts as an AI... but maybe i mixed that up?
 
I'm hoping this doesn't degenerate into company rep versus company rep. There's no need for that. If a specific compound doesn't have the science to back it's claims then so be it. But that's no reason to insinuate that it's just a simple matter of a rep from a competing company making a baseless attack. Let's try to keep this discussion based on science. No matter what company a user may represent, we all likely use products from other companies as well. This thread is about what the best OTC AI is, to answer such a question science will likely be involved...
 
mw1 said:
No I think the companies were doubting the BS claims that were made with Follidrone, not necessarily the ingredients itself- a 700 % increase in test is not going to happen. Now the same with Letrone.....I'm sure blr will come out with more BS blood work but the science is not there PERIOD. Just another example of a company trying to make a killing off a cheap ingred
Click to expand...
If a person takes a product and enjoys the results then the product works for them. Seems to be plenty of positive anecdotes around here and few negative. Here's one for you: What if a person uses Letrone and likes the result? Does that mean it's bunk or worthless because Science said so?
 
Hastur said:
I'm hoping this doesn't degenerate into company rep versus company rep. There's no need for that. If a specific compound doesn't have the science to back it's claims then so be it. But that's no reason to insinuate that it's just a simple matter of a rep from a competing company making a baseless attack. Let's try to keep this discussion based on science. No matter what company a user may represent, we all likely use products from other companies as well. This thread is about what the best OTC AI is, to answer such a question science will likely be involved...
Click to expand...
I'm afraid it became a fruitless rep battle over the weekend when competitors started trash talking and calling for us to defend. Yes, Science has it's place in this discussion. However, it is transparent to try to discount a product based on extrapolations made by a competing rep from a scientific study. A scientific study on rats means it won't work for me? Okay. I still have the right to decide for myself if it's worth it.
 
Jebrook said:
You're quite the DJ so spin whatever track you want. Ultimately, If a person takes a product and enjoys the results then the product works for them. Seems to be plenty of positive anecdotes around here and few negative. You guys can all quote rat studies, extrapolate human usage data, and allude to profit driven motives all you want. You guys are always hung up on the "what if's" or the "could happen". Here's one for you: What if a person uses Letrone and likes the result? Does that mean it's bunk or worthless because Science said so? No. Has anyone had falsified blood work? No. But it "Could Happen", "you're just saying".
Lol. Get a new record. This one is played out. Heard the same arguments over and over but I see same results from happy consumers too. Which is better? Numbers in a study or actual results? Grandiose claims without scientific backing yet still positive results, hmmm, if that's a placebo effect, I will take it.
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umm... you do realize if you are selling the stuff it is kind of on you and your company to provide evidence it works if you want people to buy it? as in, evidence that is convincing enough that the product beats a placebo?

i am not a rep for anything, but a consumer of way too many supps. 'just try it and see if it works for you!' is never, ever going to make me buy anything that i am meant to ingest for hormonal properties, because even if i do not have a degree-like background in this field, i still want to have a reason to want to try out anything that beats some company reps claiming that their stuff really works. this is not meant to be an offense or anything or even really calling you out, this is just... kind of how it is for everyone.
 
yiaosen said:
umm... you do realize if you are selling the stuff it is kind of on you and your company to provide evidence it works if you want people to buy it? as in, evidence that is convincing enough that the product beats a placebo?

i am not a rep for anything, but a consumer of way too many supps. 'just try it and see if it works for you!' is never, ever going to make me buy anything that i am meant to ingest for hormonal properties, because even if i do not have a degree-like background in this field, i still want to have a reason to want to try out anything that beats some company reps claiming that their stuff really works. this is not meant to be an offense or anything or even really calling you out, this is just... kind of how it is for everyone.
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Totally understood man. No hard feelings at all and appreciate your opinion. I am like yourself, not a scientist. I'm a very cautious consumer. I can appreciate Mrcooper's post a lot. Honestly I'll will have to re read the study many times to fully understand all the data and jargon. And I will. The thing is that all of these competitors are discounting us based upon their interpretation of the data off a study involving rats. If I had the means to conduct a bulletproof scientific study I would. Alas, very few scientific studies are perfect. I am simply saying that the results of Letrone are contradictory thus far to the data posted earlier. Contradicory enough that it's too early for other reps to be writing off Letrone. Arimistane had contradictory studies as well, but..let's not even go there. mw1, I apologize for my response being insulting. I will go back and edit it as you did yours to be more appropriate. I am simply standing up for the products I represent and providing another POV. All opinions are worthwhile when presented respectfully.
 
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