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I'm on Phosphatidic acid Ya'll

Yall made my hop on this.. almost seems too good to be true.
 
Is there any reason to dose SL before workout? Are the benefits only acute to workout or is easier to just take divided split doses. Just saying its kind of hard to stomach pre wo
 
It's acute to workout but I found splitting them pre and post worked the same. I also consider 2 hours before the gym to fall in the pre-workout window. If you have puked during your workout you know very well what I mean. So when taken with the last solid meal it works just fine. No need to suffer with a bloated gut in the gym.
 
Gonna try some of the NOW sunflower lecithin powder, see how that compares to soy.

ps compared to LEF and Fearn lecithin, the Vitacost granules are not as palatable (stronger taste, not good if youre dosing fasted at 330am)
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Gonna try some of the NOW sunflower lecithin powder, see how that compares to soy.

ps compared to LEF and Fearn lecithin, the Vitacost granules are not as palatable (stronger taste, not good if youre dosing fasted at 330am)
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I gonna ask Wilson about sunflower derrived phospholipids. Egg derrived PA is not so good as soy derrived. There is study about that
 
I'd try the Lekithos sunflower lecithin first because it has the PA amount on the label regardless of what Wilson says and report back :)
 
kisaj said:
I picked up some Solgar brand to add to my shakes and yogurt. I forgot how much I love the taste of SL.
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Same brand I'm using -- holy hell, I'd use this just for flavor and consistency enhancement. It elevates pre-workout proatmeal to a new level of gooey awesomeness.

At this point, any myogenic benefit is just icing on the cake. 10/10 would use calories again.
 
Nyrin said:
Same brand I'm using -- holy hell, I'd use this just for flavor and consistency enhancement. It elevates pre-workout proatmeal to a new level of gooey awesomeness.

At this point, any myogenic benefit is just icing on the cake. 10/10 would use calories again.
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Right? It is so good and adds a thick, nutty consistency to shakes and whatever it is added to. I put it in my coffee this morning and it was great.
 
machinehead said:
I'd try the Lekithos sunflower lecithin first because it has the PA amount on the label regardless of what Wilson says and report back :)
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Im non-US/Europe, the Lekithos products look too expensive for me. Besides, I would only get the (cheaper) NOW powder on the assumption that, as with the soy granule products, the PA content falls within a reasonable range across all brands.

Im guessing Wilson might recommend sticking with soy PA as he/we know(s) with some degree of certainty that it does what we want it to do; sunflower PA, however, is a bit of an unknown...I guess we'll see.
 
NewAgeMayan said:
Im non-US/Europe, the Lekithos products look too expensive for me. Besides, I would only get the (cheaper) NOW powder on the assumption that, as with the soy granule products, the PA content falls within a reasonable range across all brands.

Im guessing Wilson might recommend sticking with soy PA as he/we know(s) with some degree of certainty that it does what we want it to do; sunflower PA, however, is a bit of an unknown...I guess we'll see.
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inb4 sunflower PA is 10x as anabolic.

inb4 hottest trend in bodybuilding is gardening your sun flowers.
 
TheIronAsylum said:
i always thought soy was the devil for us bodybuilders
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Science builds on itself. Assuming no "shilling" in the studies - at one point science did say it was bad. But later studies found it OK. It's actually the only protein IIRC, that can claim reduced risk of Coronary Heart Disease from the FDA. Now, Unless you can't get Whey/Casein for some reason, I wouldn't *prefer* Soy. But if it's in a blend or something, I don't worry.

Besides, none of the stuff anyone would worry about - is in the Lecithin granules.
 
Hello
According to you, soy lecithin,
may adversely affect, aesthetically speaking, a period of muscle definition?
steams up muscles?

by Google translate:D
 
I've actually heard some guys in the gym discussing various levels of muscle steaming when on cycles of soy lecithin. They said it's best to stay away unless you're looking for that steamy aesthetic.
 
In times of Cut,
Creatine monohydrate may affect your muscle definition.
I was wondering if the same does the soy lecithin.
 
bb333 said:
In times of Cut,
Creatine monohydrate may affect your muscle definition.
I was wondering if the same does the soy lecithin.
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Personally, I dont like soy lecithin in a cut. I feel it is perfect for recomping and bulking. With that being said, I stay recomping year round. I dont bother with the cutting and bulking phases anymore.
 
bb333 said:
In times of Cut,
Creatine monohydrate may affect your muscle definition.
I was wondering if the same does the soy lecithin.
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well, creatine does not cause a differentiation in muscle definition to any noticeable extent. but no sl will not effect it either
 
The_Old_Guy said:
Are you talking about a stand alone product only? Because Soy Lecithin Granules are the best PA for the money (~$7/Month).
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I'm not a fan of soy lecithin granules. I noticed some muscle fullness and a slight increase in appetite. King is by far superior to granules

You get what you pay for and King is very reasonable
 
bb333 said:
In times of Cut,
Creatine monohydrate may affect your muscle definition.
I was wondering if the same does the soy lecithin.
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PA could do the same (due to intracellular WT)but many use creatine on cut and have no problem. Just benefits.same with PA
 
TheFugitive said:
I'm not a fan of soy lecithin granules. I noticed some muscle fullness and a slight increase in appetite. King is by far superior to granules

You get what you pay for and King is very reasonable
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King
GLYCOPROTEIN MUSCLE GROWTH BLEND (proprietary) 1g **
Activator™ (Phosphatidic Acid {Lysophosphatidic Acid, Phosphatidylserine, Phosphatidylcholine, Phosphatidylethanolamine, Phosphotidylinositiol})

30 Servs (workouts) $30

Fearn's
Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 2 Tablespoons (15 g)
Servings per Container: 30
Phosphatidylcholine 3450 mg *
Phosphatidylethanolamine 3000 mg *
Phosphatidylinositol 2100 mg *
Phosphatidic Acid 1200 mg *

30 Servs (workouts) $7

The PA study was done with 750mg.

I'd be interested on in the science behind King working better - realizing that individuals may have different responses to the same compound. But here, the ingredients are almost identical.
 
The whole notion that you get what you pay for couldn't be less true when it comes to supplements. Seeing as how most people seem to be having great results with granules, I don't see where the benefit is to paying more.
 
The_Old_Guy said:
King
GLYCOPROTEIN MUSCLE GROWTH BLEND (proprietary) 1g **
Activator™ (Phosphatidic Acid {Lysophosphatidic Acid, Phosphatidylserine, Phosphatidylcholine, Phosphatidylethanolamine, Phosphotidylinositiol})

30 Servs (workouts) $30

Fearn's
Supplement Facts
Serving Size: 2 Tablespoons (15 g)
Servings per Container: 30
Phosphatidylcholine 3450 mg *
Phosphatidylethanolamine 3000 mg *
Phosphatidylinositol 2100 mg *
Phosphatidic Acid 1200 mg *

30 Servs (workouts) $7

The PA study was done with 750mg.

I'd be interested on in the science behind King working better - realizing that individuals may have different responses to the same compound. But here, the ingredients are almost identical.
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Don't hold your breath. I've gotten into it with the Fugitive on another forum multiple times and I've never gotten anything substantial. The way I, and many others see it, the benefits of a concentrated PA supplement over gensules are convenience, less chance of upset stomach, and less calories and fat. Effectiveness wise, if you take both consistently and don't get an upset stomach, there really shouldn't be a difference.

Also, a question that's been asked before that hasn't been answered is how does a 1g blend contain 750mg PA, and around 200mg Niagen (mentioned by reps on another forum), unless the Activator PA used in King is nearly 100% PA, which seems rather unlikely, considering that Cutler reps have said it's cheaper than Mediator, which is 50% PA. I'd imagine that a ~90% PA extract would be significantly more expensive than a 50% extract, although I could be wrong. I also can't find any info on Activator. I'd like to see that as well.
 
Does PA need to be taking pre workout? Or could I take it at any time of the day and still reap the strength benefits (but not the pre workout dosing pump benefits which I don't really care about).
 
warbird01 said:
Does PA need to be taking pre workout? Or could I take it at any time of the day and still reap the strength benefits (but not the pre workout dosing pump benefits which I don't really care about).
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Based on the study I've seen, any time from pre workout to 3 hours pre workout would work, as PA levels actually seem to peak after 3 hours and remain elevated for at least 7 hours. If I recall, LPA peaked after 1 and 3 hours. I'll quote the study here later. It was with 1.5g Mediator PA taken after an overnight fast.

Edit:
Plasma concentrations of PA peaked at 3 hours (+32%) after ingestion and stayed elevated even after 7 hours (+18%). LPA showed a bimodal absorption kinetic with peaks after 1 hour (+500%) and 3 hours (+264%), after almost dropping back to baseline levels after 2 hours...

LPA and PA can be molecularly identified and measured. LPA, PA and LPA+PA plasma levels increase 30 min after ingestions, plateau at 1-3 hours and remain above baseline levels after 7 hours. This is the first case study showing that orally administered PA is bioavailable.
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What's the best dosage when using the granules? I've been using it for a solid two weeks at 2 teaspoons; just chewing it. Not really sure if I'm under the mark for starting to notice it's effects.
 
Probably should have said this as well: I'm using Fearns Lecithin granules; 2 teaspoons is 1200mg. I was thinking of bumping it up to 4 teaspoons
 
halljo said:
What's the best dosage when using the granules? I've been using it for a solid two weeks at 2 teaspoons; just chewing it. Not really sure if I'm under the mark for starting to notice it's effects.
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You should start seeing benefits of it soon if not already
 
halljo said:
Probably should have said this as well: I'm using Fearns Lecithin granules; 2 teaspoons is 1200mg. I was thinking of bumping it up to 4 teaspoons
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The dose is 2 TABLESPOONS not teaspoons. Read the label more carefully.
 
kisaj said:
Seeing as how most people seem to be having great results with granules, I don't see where the benefit is to paying more.
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THIS!!

I have been using PA (caps and granules) 1 year now and here is something I wrote on another forum:
here is some more info before other companies trying to say "study was done on enriched PA ".
Remember. Everything has an beginninng and how they found that PA,PS and LPA activated mTOR.

Concentrated PA such as mediaTOR IS soy PA from soy Lecithin which is enriched to 50% . like I said, It means you take less caps than if it was just 10% PA.
Higher % would play a big role IF Bioavaiability and absorption was an issue (due to other phospholipids etc), but studies show no problem With that and like I said, it would be very arogant to say "PA consumed from SL is not so good as soy lecithin enriched PA".


Concentrated PA IS soy lecithin enriched PA.It is actually SAME thing!

Do you know how scientists found that PA, PS and LPA do activate mTOR/where it all started?

Those studies are old and scientists found out that Soy Lecithin do activate mTOR but they was not sure which phospholipid or phospholipids was responsible for that.
They Isolated one by one and tested. they found that:
-Phosphatidic Acid (PA), Phosphatidyl Serine (PS) and LysoPhosphatidic Acid (LPA) was responible for signaling/activating mTOR.
They found out that other phospholipids did have other benefits. PS showed to have effect on brain Health and much more. Newer studies showing a good cortisol decreasing effect, studies done on People With ADHD (better concentration, less hyperactive).

ChemiNutra found those old studies interessting and they wanted to make PA Product.
To make it more "inovative" and to avoid taking a lot of pills, they enriched PA from soy lecithin.
They knew (from old studies) that PA would make difference (activating mTOR), so they ran studies.
So, instead of selling soy granules (which is pretty cheap and cant take so much for it), they enriched PA and could take 3-4x the price.
I would say, they are smart and they make good Money on it and will still make good Money on it.
That is the real face of business!

remember, those who ran studies on PA (hoffman,wilson,Stout etc), they know the Whole story about phospholipids and thats why they say "running SL would actually be even better. Not just because its MUCH cheaper,it let you get higher Doses of PA cheaper , but you will get high doses of other beneficial phospholipids too).
When I asked if 3g of PA would be better than 750mg (like they ran in the study). they said YES. they have data supporting this.
Remember, Cheminutra is interessting in Money. 750mg is Showing a activation of mTOR but that does not mean it is more than enough! They are interessed in more Money With less ingredient. Thats why they rather sell 750mg dose for a lot of Money than 3g. no one would buy PA caps if you needed 3g or more for Ultimate mTOR activation. would you? I dont think so!
Other way of thinking would be pretty naive!

I will still buy capsuled PA since I am bored of SL aftertaste, but I really laugh when I hear SL is not so good as concentrated PA.
I know I am repeating some things often but again:
Those who believe Soy enriched PA is better than PA from SL/which are exact same thing and same source but just higher % which does not play any role in absorption/bioavaiability.again, it means % is not important but the amount!).

Like I said, I am not bashing caps PA Products. Not at all.
I was one of first PA users (when Biotest came out With micro-PA).I liked it but 750mg was nothing compared to 1,5g or 2g. but I was tired of swallowing almost 20 PA caps prior workout.
Thats how I started to find out more about Soy lecithin , contacted Dr Wilson and other regarding old studies,info etc.

Conclution:
Do you want cheap, effective way to get high doses of PA,PS,PC and other phospholipids, then buy Soy Granules
If you dont like taste,if Your stomach cant handle big doses of SL, you are traveling etc, then caps can be added. (much higher price ofcourse).
Concentrated PA does NOT work better at all. Soy Enriched PA just let you take less Soy to get higher PA doses. thats it!
Concentrated PA (mediaTOR) is used in the study for business/sale/promotion strategy. And even a kid would know that!
So it is not like "hey they used soy enriched PA in the study. SL cant be any good".bull****
 
muscleupcrohn said:
Based on the study I've seen, any time from pre workout to 3 hours pre workout would work, as PA levels actually seem to peak after 3 hours and remain elevated for at least 7 hours. If I recall, LPA peaked after 1 and 3 hours. I'll quote the study here later. It was with 1.5g Mediator PA taken after an overnight fast.

Edit:
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This is true, but we shall not forget that physical stressors such as exercise increase/release enzymes which are responsible /helping PS/PA for more convertation to LPA. (Means even more convertation).
 
Danes said:
This is true, but we shall not forget that physical stressors such as exercise increase/release enzymes which are responsible /helping PS/PA for more convertation to LPA. (Means even more convertation).
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I agree that pre-workout is likely the best time to take the granules, I take them at that time, I was just responding to someone who asked if they could take it away from their workout. For people who get an upset stomach or feel bloated, taking it with a meal or just 3 hours prior to working out could provide an alternative to either going with concentrated supplements or dealing with stomach issues.

And another update, both LEF and Optima responded to me and informed me that their lecithin genaules have little to no PS in them. If I recall, LEF said there is none (likely just a small amount not tested for), and Optima said it was, if I recall, 42mg PS per 10.5g serving. I actually have a COA from Optima, but the PA amount listed for their accepted specs on it was, if I recall, 4-7%, but they told me that they meet the label claims of the higher amounts, like 12% or whatever it was. What do you think Danes?
 
i ended up grabbing king on a 2 get 1 free deal guess il save on taking vitamin d lol


so am i supposed to just take 3 caps preworkout with that?
 
muscleupcrohn said:
I agree that pre-workout is likely the best time to take the granules, I take them at that time, I was just responding to someone who asked if they could take it away from their workout. For people who get an upset stomach or feel bloated, taking it with a meal or just 3 hours prior to working out could provide an alternative to either going with concentrated supplements or dealing with stomach issues.

And another update, both LEF and Optima responded to me and informed me that their lecithin genaules have little to no PS in them. If I recall, LEF said there is none (likely just a small amount not tested for), and Optima said it was, if I recall, 42mg PS per 10.5g serving. I actually have a COA from Optima, but the PA amount listed for their accepted specs on it was, if I recall, 4-7%, but they told me that they meet the label claims of the higher amounts, like 12% or whatever it was. What do you think Danes?
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Totaly agree with you.
If there is an issue taking high doses of granules pre workout, spreading in smaller doses would not hurt at all. The part of the study you showed really show that PA is effective anyway.

Optima has 12.38% PA if their label dont lie. Its shame if their COA show another %
 
TheIronAsylum said:
i ended up grabbing king on a 2 get 1 free deal guess il save on taking vitamin d lol


so am i supposed to just take 3 caps preworkout with that?
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KING v1? If I remember right v1 was 3 pills while v2 was just 2 pills.

Take all 3 prior workout to get most of PA
 
kdubson14 said:
Has anyone inquired about the PS content of Fearn SL?
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I've contacted Fearn, Optima, LEF, and NOW.

Fearn hasn't answered, and NOW doesn't check. Optima and LEF have very little, and I still have to contact Vitamin Shoppe, Swanson, and a few others. I'm also looking into buying in bulk of its cheaper and I can get a COA from the supplier.
 
Danes said:
Totaly agree with you.
If there is an issue taking high doses of granules pre workout, spreading in smaller doses would not hurt at all. The part of the study you showed really show that PA is effective anyway.

Optima has 12.38% PA if their label dont lie. Its shame if their COA show another %
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I'll post up the conversation with Optima and the COA later.
 
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