Frenzy profile at last

[mr.cooper69]

I agree entirely, however rationality is rare amongst the commons/consumers. People prefer to find a target to attack, in which DS has become one of late.

Your argument revolves around trust, in reality who can you trust other than yourself...

No hype doesn't have an agenda against DS. I know him from another board, he's similar to De_eb or myself...a critic of products. This is desirable in a sea of placebo

 

[Hydra]

So you say there's no agenda but also admit that this only peaked your interest and spurred your input on the matter only because it's DS and Cahill. Is that not by definition a agenda? Btw, I think Cahill is one of the scums of the earth, but so's goodness knows how many others in the supplement industry. Cahill just seems to have more fans thus a more prominent target.

IMO, you really should have just left commenting about how you had no agenda out of the picture when I was pointing out very obvious trends here to provide context to the discussion, because you said you had no agenda but now you're basically saying that you do. Just my 2 cents, not that it matters much. Thought it was interesting to just provide some context around all this.

This was my entire point. The only interest here is doing whatever he can to attack DS and if that means scare mongering people into thinking there is something dangerous about this ingredient then that is exactly what he is going to do. He admits he has not found information on the ingredient besides the MSDS (which is easily shown to be useless, an MSDS sheet about a volatile LIQUID compound by the way, not what is actually being used in any products) and yet he still is posting saying he is waiting to see if people will get hurt. A continued bias that there has to be something dangerous about AMP citrate. AMP citrate has been sold for at least 6 months in at least 6 different companies products, no one has claimed of any problems at all.

I read the Frenzy label, I don't see anywhere that they are stating the ingredient is an extract. It seems pretty obvious that they are listing it with the citrate leaving most people to assume its synthetic. Where are all the posts calling out the companies who actually started selling this first and claiming it from an extract of the tea? Be biased all you want but don't pretend like you are doing anything other then being biased because you don't like DS / Cahill. If he were the only criminal in the industry it might make me hesitate but since he isn't it is not a factor for me when choosing supplements. In the same way that I will keep buying PAs products.

No hype doesn't have an agenda against DS. I know him from another board, he's similar to De_eb or myself...a critic of products. This is desirable in a sea of placebo

Critics of products, lulz. Critics of specific companies products is more like it. Where is all of the human safety data on higenamine? No one who has read any of No Hype's posts would come close to believing that he doesn't have an agenda. It's so obvious it's actually pitiful that you would even suggest otherwise.

 

[kissdadookie]

...

Well, to be fair to No_HYPE, you also appeared out of the blue and focused specifically on this subject so one can also make the assumption that you have an agenda as well

Supplement industry ='s scummy and shady business with a ton of colourful characters. Lulz.

 

[Hydra]

I do have an agenda and made it clear in my post, I like EVOL (AMP citrate) and I will be trying Frenzy next week. I want to be able to keep taking supplements that work that use a stim ingredient that I like. If AMP citrate turns into a "zzomg its toxic, my throat is going to melt cause No Hype said so" type of ingredient, what stim will I be left with? Higemanine or synephrine, no thank you.

edit: I like products that work, no more no less.

 

[kissdadookie]

I do have an agenda and made it clear in my post, I like EVOL (AMP citrate) and I will be trying Frenzy next week. I want to be able to keep taking supplements that work that use a stim ingredient that I like. If AMP citrate turns into a "zzomg its toxic, my throat is going to melt cause No Hype said so" type of ingredient, what stim will I be left with? Higemanine or synephrine, no thank you.

edit: I like products that work, no more no less.

Meh, AMP didn't do much for me after the first use of EVOL. Not a big fan of synephrine. Higenamine I like but sometimes upsets my stomach (though after changing my diet a bit, it tends to not do this as much).

Hey, at least we still have yohimbine, caffeine, and Bronkaid. We're in good shape.

 

[Hydra]

I have only been using it for a couple weeks. I'm not saying it's mind blowing but it's better then a lot of the crap that is available. I have high hopes for Frenzy based on the feedback. VPXs white heat looks like a decent formula.

 

[De__eB]

Where is all of the human safety data on higenamine?

A phase I study on pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of higenamine in healthy Chinese subjects.

AIM: To investigate the pharmacokinetics, pharmacodynamics, and safety of higenamine, an active ingredient of Aconite root, in healthy Chinese volunteers.

In summary, intravenous administration of 22.5 µg/kg hige-namine was well-tolerated in healthy Chinese volunteers. A two-compartment pharmacokinetic model was successfully fitted to the higenamine plasma concentration-time data, and a saturable pharmacodynamic model adequately described the increase in heart rate after drug administration.

 

[Hydra]

Intravenous use of 2.25mgs (22.5mcg/kg) of higenamine. You believe that is a fair comparison of the oral doses currently being used? It's probably about 25x LESS. Other then saying its well tolerated they dont provide any other info in the abstract about safety.

 

[De__eB]

Intravenous use of 2.25mgs (22.5mcg/kg) of higenamine. You believe that is a fair comparison of the oral doses currently being used?

Honestly? Probably pretty close. Obviously injected would have dramatically higher availability than oral.

Most higenamine products are prop blended, though I think average inclusion of higenamine is like, 20mg?

In the study, they went up to more than double that dose and only had one person report side effects (dizziness, increased heart rate beyond that from the rest of the group) I guess my point is, there's at least a published peer reviewed demonstration of what the stimulant does acutely in humans.

If even that existed for AMP Citrate, I'd be less skeptical of it, if you look back through my post history I think you'll find that I've been apprehensive at best about the ingredient long before the DS Frenzy topics came up.

--

I want AMP Citrate to be on the market, I wish DMAA was still on the market. People should be able to buy and use whatever they want. But companies (in this case, Creative Compounds LLC since they're the ones selling AMP Citrate to every consumer-facing manufacturer) should at least put together some rudimentary human safety data, especially in a category of compounds (stimulants) that has come under fire by the FDA time and time again.

--

 

[Hydra]

The highest dose they used was 4mg, I think most companies are using more like 40-50mgs. You are absolutely right though most are a prop blend so its just a guess. I don't think its comparable but it was more of a point that its MSDS isnt much different then caffeine or amp citrate.

There have been safety studies done on DMAA and it is still connected to 12+ deaths. I think in theory its nice to have the safety study but more often then not when the safety study comes out usually these forums are still very skeptical. For all you know Creative Compounds LLC has done a safety study but it hasnt been published yet. I doubt it but even if they did I think you and No Hype would look for a reason as to why the study doesn't matter or cling to a single bit of data that in the scheme of things means nothing but helps in your efforts to continue the biased attacks.

If FDA does not want the ingredient to be used they will take whatever steps they want to make sure it isn't. Having a small study or even a large study done by anyone selling any ingredient is not going to prevent that from happening.

 

[T-Bone]

I agree entirely, however rationality is rare amongst the commons/consumers. People prefer to find a target to attack, in which DS has become one of late.

Your argument revolves around trust, in reality who can you trust other than yourself...

A lot of peoples "rationality" around here is, if one cap/pill/scoop works, than seven will work better.

 

[De__eB]

The highest dose they used was 4mg, I think most companies are using more like 40-50mgs. You are absolutely right though most are a prop blend so its just a guess. I don't think its comparable but it was more of a point that its MSDS isnt much different then caffeine or amp citrate.

There have been safety studies done on DMAA and it is still connected to 12+ deaths. I think in theory its nice to have the safety study but more often then not when the safety study comes out usually these forums are still very skeptical. For all you know Creative Compounds LLC has done a safety study but it hasnt been published yet. I doubt it but even if they did I think you and No Hype would look for a reason as to why the study doesn't matter or cling to a single bit of data that in the scheme of things means nothing but helps in your efforts to continue the biased attacks.

If FDA does not want the ingredient to be used they will take whatever steps they want to make sure it isn't. Having a small study or even a large study done by anyone selling any ingredient is not going to prevent that from happening.

Well it was that dose, injected, makes a difference of course.

W/re to biased attacks...I think you'd see that I keep a generally more open-minded approach now than in times past. I don't think I've said anything unfairly bias in this thread, simply mocking the attempts to make the ingredient seem natural.

You'd be completely right in thinking I don't like Matt Cahill, but that has nothing to do with the fact that I think the formula for frenzy is nothing special, and certainly not worth the price tag compared to other products on the market. And what I think about the Frenzy formula has nothing to do with what I think about AMP Citrate.

--

Also, consider your own positive bias, if any other company were to release this formula as a preworkout, would it be generating anywhere near the response or reviews?

I mean honestly, look at it. 4.9g certainly isn't even approaching full dosing of the ingredients, so I'm assuming people are taking two scoops, you get:

9.8g of what I'd guess looks something like, but could very well be even less favorably skewed and have more creatine/taurine than I'm throwing out

3g Creatine
2g Taurine
2g Citruline
2g LCLT
800mg AMP/PEA/Caffeine/Citrus Reticulata

Do you really think that's an outstanding 5 star formula? One worth paying a premium price for? If it was an unknown company releasing that formula, would people rave about it?

Look at some of the other great preworkouts on the market right now....

-Giant Sports Metabolic Bioshock
-Komodo Nutraceuticals Katana
-PES Enhanced

Hell, look at product offerings from company's I've been very critical of in the past:

-Jack3d AF
-SuperPump 3.0

All of those except Katana are available in the UK for prices at or below Frenzy

Do you honestly think the frenzy formula is as good as any of those by any measure other than hype and placebo? Come on...

 

[xR1pp3Rx]

well said

 

[kissdadookie]

Bioshock, done

 

[De__eB]

Bioshock, done

I'd rather pay for metabolic bioshock than get Frenzy AND Splyce for free.

 

[eaturs]

Sup BK?

Sorry, I don't understand.

What do you think of this compound from the DSHEA viewpoint? Why don't companies sell this? Lack of suppliers?
Would it get SNS' approval?

 

[eaturs]

There have been safety studies done on DMAA and it is still connected to 12+ deaths.

Let's be honest here. Twelve deaths, in the context of the millions of doses that have been sold, is a tiny figure and tend to prove the product is safe rather than unsafe. Even generally considered mild and safe drugs kill several people every year.

 

[T-Bone]

I'd like to know what NO_Hype thinks of Follidrone....:biglaugh:

 

[De__eB]

I'd like to know what NO_Hype thinks of Follidrone....:biglaugh:

OH LAWD.

 

[kissdadookie]

I'd rather pay for metabolic bioshock than get Frenzy AND Splyce for free.

Yup. I take Bioshock over any AMP product or even face full of stims product.

 

[Hydra]

Well it was that dose, injected, makes a difference of course.

W/re to biased attacks...I think you'd see that I keep a generally more open-minded approach now than in times past. I don't think I've said anything unfairly bias in this thread, simply mocking the attempts to make the ingredient seem natural.

You'd be completely right in thinking I don't like Matt Cahill, but that has nothing to do with the fact that I think the formula for frenzy is nothing special, and certainly not worth the price tag compared to other products on the market. And what I think about the Frenzy formula has nothing to do with what I think about AMP Citrate.

--

Also, consider your own positive bias, if any other company were to release this formula as a preworkout, would it be generating anywhere near the response or reviews?

I mean honestly, look at it. 4.9g certainly isn't even approaching full dosing of the ingredients, so I'm assuming people are taking two scoops, you get:

9.8g of what I'd guess looks something like, but could very well be even less favorably skewed and have more creatine/taurine than I'm throwing out

3g Creatine
2g Taurine
2g Citruline
2g LCLT
800mg AMP/PEA/Caffeine/Citrus Reticulata

Do you really think that's an outstanding 5 star formula? One worth paying a premium price for? If it was an unknown company releasing that formula, would people rave about it?

Look at some of the other great preworkouts on the market right now....

-Giant Sports Metabolic Bioshock
-Komodo Nutraceuticals Katana
-PES Enhanced

Hell, look at product offerings from company's I've been very critical of in the past:

-Jack3d AF
-SuperPump 3.0

All of those except Katana are available in the UK for prices at or below Frenzy

Do you honestly think the frenzy formula is as good as any of those by any measure other than hype and placebo? Come on...

I already posted that I don't like higenamine and don't get any benefits from. I'm not going to buy them again if that is the basis of the stim blend. I used Craze and loved it, I have used AMP Citrate before / currently and like it so why wouldn't I assume that Frenzy is going to be good (especially after seeing the reviews)? I posted because of AMP Citrate not Frenzy. But if you want to compare, Frenzy gives a larger serving with less ingredients meaning more of the active ingredients for a slight difference in price. That slight difference would not be a factor for me but the actual stim blend would. Why wouldn't I try it?

Enhanced serv amount: 2.35gms -11 ingredients cost per serv 73p
Jack3d serv amount: 3.8gms -10 ingredients cost per serv 70p
Frenzy serv amount: 4.9gms - 8 ingredients cost per serv 92p

Let's be honest here. Twelve deaths, in the context of the millions of doses that have been sold, is a tiny figure and tend to prove the product is safe rather than unsafe. Even generally considered mild and safe drugs kill several people every year.

I completely agree and considering its MSDS sheet is worse then AMP Citrate then we would be left to conclude that it is likely that AMP Citrate will be similar or safer then DMAA.

 

[NO_HYPE]

So why so much concern about the safety of AMP now that Frenzy is out yet little to no discussion on the safety of AMP prior to Frenzy?

"so much concern"? lol

Where was that exactly?

Why.... cuz I posted an MSDS, and said I wouldn't take the stuff?

 

[NO_HYPE]

The only interest here is doing whatever he can to attack DS and if that means scare mongering people into thinking there is something dangerous about this ingredient then that is exactly what he is going to do.

.... and the conspiracy theories & high school drama continues. Carry on.

He admits he has not found information on the ingredient besides the MSDS

There is no kinetic, dynamic, or safety data on AMP whatsoever. Aside from demonstrating that the only literature on this stuff was a friggin' MSDS, I wanted to bring the compound's caustic and NOx-emitting properties to the discussion, so deal with it.

A continued bias that there has to be something dangerous about AMP citrate.

rofl

 

[NO_HYPE]

I'd like to know what NO_Hype thinks of Follidrone....:biglaugh:

I'm on the Follidrone/Bio-Gro/Prime stack right now bish.

 

[Touey]

personally i don't have a problem with those whom subject compositions to perlustration unless they be affiliated with another company, however they may try to have the utmost of good intentions there always appear chinks within the virtual ethical armor

 

[NO_HYPE]

unless they be affiliated with another company

Guess I'm off the hook.

 

[NO_HYPE]

"zzomg its toxic, my throat is going to melt cause No Hype said so" type of ingredient

 

[Touey]

Guess I'm off the hook.

insofar as the telescope effect is concerned it goes both ways ergo the real problem, so yes perhaps more so. Everyone should do their own research than being spooned information, but the sneaky suspicion is people like asking questions because they like to be answered

 

[NO_HYPE]

I read the Frenzy label, I don't see anywhere that they are stating the ingredient is an extract.

Cahill [and others] are obviously insinuating that the 4-Methyl-2-Pentanamine is derived from Pouchong tea.

It seems pretty obvious that they are listing it with the citrate leaving most people to assume its synthetic.

You mean.... "leaving most people to assume it's natural" --> just like the PEA in Craze was from dendrobium twigs right? rofl

Where are all the posts calling out the companies who actually started selling this first and claiming it from an extract of the tea?

None of the things I discussed were exclusive to Cahill. So give it up. It doesn't matter who is selling it.... the complete lack of safety data doesn't change.

Be biased all you want but don't pretend like you are doing anything other then being biased because you don't like DS / Cahill.

You're right. I don't care for the scum over at DS or Gaspari - and rightfully so. I don't take kindly to companies sneaking chit [especially illicit compounds] into my supplements. Still though, my concern with the lack of safety data on AMP applies to anyone taking it - which is irrespective of the companies who sell it.

If he were the only criminal in the industry it might make me hesitate but since he isn't it is not a factor for me when choosing supplements.

hidden ingredients FTW bishes!

 

[kissdadookie]

"so much concern"? lol

Where was that exactly?

Why.... cuz I posted an MSDS, and said I wouldn't take the stuff?

You asked the correct question there, thus leading to what one can only construe as your agenda to call out DS every chance you get (as well as Gaspari). It is what it is, no point trying to make it appear as anything else. You're totally entitled to your own actions and biases, all I did was point out what appears to be the obvious.

What is this obvious thing I speak of? That you're very obviously less concerned about the ingredient and more concerned about calling out DS for XYZ reasons (again, I'm not defending DS or Cahill, they are both scummy in my books and I don't support either).

 

[NO_HYPE]

your agenda to call out DS every chance you get (as well as Gaspari).

Guess you need to look up the definition of agenda, cuz I have no plan or outline to post exclusively about the shady practices of Cahill or Gaspari.... they provide that material on their own.

 

[NO_HYPE]

What is this obvious thing I speak of? That you're very obviously less concerned about the ingredient and more concerned about calling out DS

yeah.... nice try though

my concern with the lack of safety data on AMP applies to anyone taking it - which is irrespective of the companies who sell it.

 

[kissdadookie]

Dude, it is what it is, so let's just drop it and move on shall we?

 

[NO_HYPE]

Dude, it is what it is

Yeah.... a few of us calling into question, the lack of safety data for AMP citrate.

let's just drop it and move on shall we?

Agreed. Lets take 4-scoops of Bio-Gro, and shake hands.

 

[kissdadookie]

Yeah.... a few of us calling into question, the lack of safety data for AMP citrate.




Agreed. Lets take 4-scoops of Bio-Gro, and shake hands.

Go team RK/TL!

 

[mw1]

You asked the correct question there, thus leading to what one can only construe as your agenda to call out DS every chance you get (as well as Gaspari). It is what it is, no point trying to make it appear as anything else. You're totally entitled to your own actions and biases, all I did was point out what appears to be the obvious.

What is this obvious thing I speak of? That you're very obviously less concerned about the ingredient and more concerned about calling out DS for XYZ reasons (again, I'm not defending DS or Cahill, they are both scummy in my books and I don't support either).

I would disagree. No hype is an equal opportunity company destroyer

 

[Afi140]

I'm all for shady companies being brought down. I like that RK does it, as someone needs to. However, his random lame posts with gasparis wife makes it seem more like an infatuation with the successful people of the industry, rather than saving the industry.

 

[Chub]

Just noticed on the back of the label "NOT FOR SALE IN THE USA" Dunno why only one retailer in the UK got it hmm

 

[T-Bone]

[video]http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/nation/2014/01/06/2585735/[/video]

 

[T-Bone]

Remember how it was claimed that Superdrol was safe on the liver when it was first released?.

 

[Chub]

[video]http://www.usatoday.com/videos/news/nation/2014/01/06/2585735/[/video]

seen that, apparently Frenzy isn't being sold in the US because DS are coming out with another pre workout that'll only be available in the US. That came from Predators FB page

 

[mw1]

Just the fact that he put NSF certified on the labels when the organization had never heard of them is enough for me to never buy anything DS. If he does that to fool consumers there is no doubt he would do other things to fool customers as well

 

[kissdadookie]

Just the fact that he put NSF certified on the labels when the organization had never heard of them is enough for me to never buy anything DS. If he does that to fool consumers there is no doubt he would do other things to fool customers as well

They are not the only one though, Muscle Pharm did the same thing and that's a much larger outfit.

 

[mw1]

They are not the only one though, Muscle Pharm did the same thing and that's a much larger outfit.

I wasn't aware...the are on my no list as well now

 

[Quadzilla99]

Craze fanboys are just perpetually lost in a maze of moral relativism these days

 

[WinterSoldier]

I would disagree. No hype is an equal opportunity company destroyer

No Hype, why didn't you call out PA when he released the new Clearshot formula?

1) The product contains 2-aminoisoheptane which has no safety data whatsoever.

2) The way the product is labeled, PA is obviously insinuating that the 2-aminoisoheptane is naturally derived from Aconitum kusnezoffii, even though it is very obvious that it is a synthetic stimulant.

3) The Aconitum kusnezoffii ingredient listed on the label is a highly toxic plant and contains poisonous alkaloids.

 

[hardknock]

AMP citrate has been sold for at least 6 months in at least 6 different companies products, no one has claimed of any problems at all.

I read the Frenzy label, I don't see anywhere that they are stating the ingredient is an extract. It seems pretty obvious that they are listing it with the citrate leaving most people to assume its synthetic. Where are all the posts calling out the companies who actually started selling this first and claiming it from an extract of the tea? Be biased all you want but don't pretend like you are doing anything other then being biased because you don't like DS / Cahill. If he were the only criminal in the industry it might make me hesitate but since he isn't it is not a factor for me when choosing supplements. In the same way that I will keep buying PAs products.

The first bold sentence means nothing tbh. 6 months and no negative effects? In some instances, we may need 12 months, 18 months, etc. Do we really know? As best as we can ascertain, it has no proven negatives but this cannot be taking as 'proof' so to speak, honestly, can it?

The second bold sentence, I am unaware of the logic that you are using for that, please explain? Specifically, I am referencing the part about not being the only criminal in the industry thus giving you a reason to denounce that as a factor for which products you purchase?

 

[NO_HYPE]

No Hype, why didn't you call out PA when he released the new Clearshot formula?

I wasn't even aware.

1) The product contains 2-aminoisoheptane which has no safety data whatsoever.

Guess that's part of the reason why it didn't last long [that and it's resemblance to DMAA] .

2) The way the product is labeled, PA is obviously insinuating that the 2-aminoisoheptane is naturally derived from Aconitum kusnezoffii, even though it is very obvious that it is a synthetic stimulant.

Well it's not synthetic if PA's raws were extracted from Acontium. I haven't looked at the data, so I don't know how much naturally-occurring 2-aminoisoheptane is yielded and/or how feasible it would be.

3) The Aconitum kusnezoffii ingredient listed on the label is a highly toxic plant and contains poisonous alkaloids.

I'm glad Patrick didn't use the rest of the plant then.

 

[kissdadookie]

I wasn't even aware.

Guess that's part of the reason why it didn't last long [that and it's resemblance to DMAA] .

Well it's not synthetic if PA's raws were extracted from Acontium. I haven't looked at the data, so I don't know how much naturally-occurring 2-aminoisoheptane is yielded and/or how feasible it would be.

I'm glad Patrick didn't use the rest of the plant then.

You're kidding me right? You actually believe that PA's raws were actual Acontium extract? Yeah, just like how when he brought DMAA out, that was extracted from geranium. Come on, you're supposed to be more intelligent than that.

 

[3clipseGT]

Patricks 2-aminoisoheptane was NOT extracted from that plant.