All aboard the Betaine train.
- Thread starter De__eB
- Start date
kbayne
Legend
Why not just stick with 2.5 grams? That is the dose that was used in the study and showed great benefits.
I believe ZirRed is going to perform other studies with a higher dose, but until then just stick to the recommended dose.
More is not always better.
kissdadookie
Well-known member
Max Pump. I think the 4 cap dose gets you efficacious dosing of both nitrates and betaine. Any Finaflex reps care to confirm?
Synapsin
Well-known member
Should be out in the near future.
Quadzilla99
Member
It doesn't taste bad so powder or capsule doesn't make a diff to me. Has like a slightly sugary pleasant flavor imo
schizm
Well-known member
In4 Betaine XT..
ZiR RED
Well-known member
By the way, as we try to more closely determine mechanism of action, this is a very interesting study:
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Here we see betaine agonizing the IGF-1 receptor to increase protein synthesis and promote satellite cell proliferation, differentiation, and likely fusion. This would result in hypertrophy and decreased domain size (each myofiber nuclei would control less area, which might mean more precise control). Basically, here we see betaine mimicking the actions of IGF-1.
Invalid Link Removed
Here we see betaine agonizing the IGF-1 receptor to increase protein synthesis and promote satellite cell proliferation, differentiation, and likely fusion. This would result in hypertrophy and decreased domain size (each myofiber nuclei would control less area, which might mean more precise control). Basically, here we see betaine mimicking the actions of IGF-1.
bolt10
Well-known member
I noticed some initially, but it wasn't horrible and seemed to subside with continued use.
bioman
Well-known member
Same here though I tried 7grams on an empty stomach...not a good idea.
aaronuconn
Well-known member
Even 3.75g gave me issues.
schizm
Well-known member
Weird question, but has anyone else noticed or been told they smell like maple syrup while using TMG? I'm 3 weeks in using 3g/day...my wife tells me I smell like that, like it's coming out of my pores...it's been really the only thing I've added in...though I'm also using alphamine, which makes me sweat pretty easily...
Jiigzz
Legend
Why so much?
T-Bone
Banned
Cause more is always better duh!. It's why you take 6 ibuprofen instead of 1 when you have pain. That way you get double the pain relief!.
Quadzilla99
Member
Why not? For every supplement except perhaps creatine and beta alanine the most efficient doses have never been established. Could very well get much better results from 5-6 grams and its not a really expensive supp. Like why on Earth would you not experiment with higher doses if you have the money and feel inclined to. Its not like we have any proof that 2.5 grams is the maximum effective dose
Jiigzz
Legend
Beau
Well-known member
That happens with fenugreek, but I've never had it happen w/ TMG and I've been using it consistently at approx. 2.5 g per day for a year.
schizm
Well-known member
And that's what I recall about fenugreek...and forgot I've been using a gifted bottle of Slintensity (1-2 caps/day) for the last 3 weeks as well...wouldn't have thought that'd be it as I've been using Glycophase for the last several months...interesting...
Beau
Well-known member
I suppose the Slintensity could do it; but that doesn't seem like enough fenugreek to have that as an outcome - but that is just a guess. Based on what you've said, it must be.
Beau
Well-known member
I just don't know if an extract of a product (even if high in percentage) would have the same attributes (smell, in this case) as the original, un-extracted product.
Others may know, but not me.
schizm
Well-known member
That is my going theory, coupled with using alphamine 2x's/day, and the sweats/Internal heat it creates, amplifying the fenugreek...could be totally making that up, lol...but I'm dropping both as of yesterday and see if the smell leaves..
schizm
Well-known member
Great to know, thanks BigG! Hopefully bumping up my water intake the next several days will help clear it out faster...
snagencyV2.0
Legend
I like the smell of maple syrup....
but no - this is not indicative nor an effect of TMG usage, in any way/shape/form
don't know anything about slintensity personally, but my logical hypothesis would be it perhaps contains more fen than what they list, or you are individually susceptible to that side-effect from that particular compound
but no - this is not indicative nor an effect of TMG usage, in any way/shape/form
don't know anything about slintensity personally, but my logical hypothesis would be it perhaps contains more fen than what they list, or you are individually susceptible to that side-effect from that particular compound
snagencyV2.0
Legend
a little late to this party, but sure I will confirm that rumor
we are confident our formulation provides the correct blend of each, tho I cannot specify specific % here due to our stance on protecting the blend specs
schizm
Well-known member
Quadzilla99
Member
Or perhaps there is a toxiological bell curve that exists.
But sureeee
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T-Bone
Banned
What about safety studies at higher dosages?. This supplement is fairly new to the market correct?. What about safety studies period?.
bioman
Well-known member
I know a guy at the gym who died from Betaine poisoning. He took 6.5 grams..0.5 grams above the NOW recommendation and he exploded. RIP Betaine Bob, you knew how to live life except that you exceeded the imaginary bell curve into toxicity/spontaneous combustion. You should have headed the warnings from strangers on the internet with no research background in this compound...but no, you had to do things your way.
burpees
Banned
Poor guy, ima move my dose down to 3 grams a day can't believe I'm half a gram from leaving my daughters fatherless smh
Jiigzz
Legend
No research background on the topic? Really?
Enlighten me o Betaine god.
The toxiological bell curve was a joke, but performance studues show 2.5g to be the mark in which performance enhances.
But since you clearly know more than I do on the subject; can you please explain to us lesser folk what the advantages of dosing higher are?
Edit: nothing wrong with experimenting with higher doses, but considering you insulted me I will fight back
burpees
Banned
Quick google search I guess this the reason for 6 grams ? More for liver health I guess than performance ??
The Foundation has identified several cases in which people who were suffering from coronary artery disease had lethal levels of homocysteine despite taking the recommended dose (and higher) of vitamin supplements.
One case involved a 60-year-old man who previously had bypass surgery, but who was again suffering angina pain with significant restenosis (reclogging of the coronary arteries) verified by angiography. This man knew about the dangers of homocysteine and had been taking more than 15,000 mcg a day of folic acid, along with other homocysteine-lowering vitamins. Because of the angina pain and restenosis, the Foundation recommended a homocysteine blood test. The results came back showing that this man had a shockingly high homocysteine reading of 18 in his blood. (Homocysteine levels over 15 have been shown to be extremely dangerous.) The Foundation immediately suggested this man take 6 grams a day of TMG (trimethylglycine), and within one month, his homocysteine level dropped to 4. This case was a wake-up call that one or more homocysteine-lowering factors are not always the solution to keeping homocysteine levels in the safest range (below 7). It was also a confirmation of our position that people who want to lower homocysteine must take in account all of the factors involved.
Another case involved a healthy person who took everyday a 500-mg TMG supplement, 4000 mcg of folic acid, and high doses of many other vitamins. A homocysteine blood test revealed a reading of 11.3, which is far above the safe range of under 7. Six grams of TMG and 500 mg of vitamin B6 were added to his daily program, and the homocysteine level dropped to under 6 within 60 days.
The most recent survey (Cardiologia, 1999, Apr, 44[4]:341-45) shows that the average American's homocysteine level is 10, so the fact that 90% of Foundation members are below 10 is a testament to the effectiveness of dietary supplements in suppressing dangerously high homocysteine levels (Annals of Epidemiology, May 1997, 7[4]:285-93).
The problem is that certain people are not being protected against the damaging effects of homocysteine, and the only way of finding out is to have a blood test. When homocysteine is too high, the addition of extra amounts of vitamin B6 and/or TMG (trimethylglycine) has reduced levels to the safest range in every case we have worked with. The Foundation has found that the addition of extra folic acid produces only a moderate reduction in elevated homocysteine levels. Folic acid is a critical component of a homocysteine-lowering program, but there is a limit to how much homocysteine can be reduced by folate and vitamin B12. Cardiologists are increasingly recommending folic-acid supplements to their coronary artery disease patients, but the results from the Foundation's laboratory indicate that it takes more than folic acid to reduce serum homocysteine to a level where it ceases to be a risk factor for causing a heart attack. - See more at: Invalid Link Removed
The Foundation has identified several cases in which people who were suffering from coronary artery disease had lethal levels of homocysteine despite taking the recommended dose (and higher) of vitamin supplements.
One case involved a 60-year-old man who previously had bypass surgery, but who was again suffering angina pain with significant restenosis (reclogging of the coronary arteries) verified by angiography. This man knew about the dangers of homocysteine and had been taking more than 15,000 mcg a day of folic acid, along with other homocysteine-lowering vitamins. Because of the angina pain and restenosis, the Foundation recommended a homocysteine blood test. The results came back showing that this man had a shockingly high homocysteine reading of 18 in his blood. (Homocysteine levels over 15 have been shown to be extremely dangerous.) The Foundation immediately suggested this man take 6 grams a day of TMG (trimethylglycine), and within one month, his homocysteine level dropped to 4. This case was a wake-up call that one or more homocysteine-lowering factors are not always the solution to keeping homocysteine levels in the safest range (below 7). It was also a confirmation of our position that people who want to lower homocysteine must take in account all of the factors involved.
Another case involved a healthy person who took everyday a 500-mg TMG supplement, 4000 mcg of folic acid, and high doses of many other vitamins. A homocysteine blood test revealed a reading of 11.3, which is far above the safe range of under 7. Six grams of TMG and 500 mg of vitamin B6 were added to his daily program, and the homocysteine level dropped to under 6 within 60 days.
The most recent survey (Cardiologia, 1999, Apr, 44[4]:341-45) shows that the average American's homocysteine level is 10, so the fact that 90% of Foundation members are below 10 is a testament to the effectiveness of dietary supplements in suppressing dangerously high homocysteine levels (Annals of Epidemiology, May 1997, 7[4]:285-93).
The problem is that certain people are not being protected against the damaging effects of homocysteine, and the only way of finding out is to have a blood test. When homocysteine is too high, the addition of extra amounts of vitamin B6 and/or TMG (trimethylglycine) has reduced levels to the safest range in every case we have worked with. The Foundation has found that the addition of extra folic acid produces only a moderate reduction in elevated homocysteine levels. Folic acid is a critical component of a homocysteine-lowering program, but there is a limit to how much homocysteine can be reduced by folate and vitamin B12. Cardiologists are increasingly recommending folic-acid supplements to their coronary artery disease patients, but the results from the Foundation's laboratory indicate that it takes more than folic acid to reduce serum homocysteine to a level where it ceases to be a risk factor for causing a heart attack. - See more at: Invalid Link Removed
BlackWinging
New member
I'm guessing there are studies out there that use 3-6 grams to evaluate it's effect on high levels of homocysteine, and seeing that 6 grams was more effective use that as a recommendation. I doubt TMG would cause anything bad at that dose, other than the chance of fishy body odor being increased greatly.
I did have a question about choline and it being metabolized into TMG. If I take 3 grams of choline citrate, about how much of it would be metabolized into TMG? And would supplementation with TMG reduce how much choline is metabolized into TMG?
I did have a question about choline and it being metabolized into TMG. If I take 3 grams of choline citrate, about how much of it would be metabolized into TMG? And would supplementation with TMG reduce how much choline is metabolized into TMG?
ZiR RED
Well-known member
Yes, it appears to be safe in dosages upwards of 10g. However, the MOA is not a reduction in Hcy, and most people here shouldn't have excessively high Hcy levels as it is. The MOA appears to be either via the GH/IGF-1 axis, increased intramuscular hydration, or possibly through lipogenic gene expression inhibition. In any case, and even from animal studies (when generalized for body weight), it appears that dosages that work out to around 2-3 g are optimal.
As for choline to betaine....I believe if you are supplementing with choline and TMG, then very little would be used to synthesize TMG. TMG has a choline sparing effect, and choline will only be used for TMG synthesis when either (or both) betaine and folate consumption is low.
Beau
Well-known member
"Betaine Bob" - the best part of the entire thread.
Sadly, the best I would have come up with is "TMG Tom".
I am both ashamed and awed at your brilliance.
Beau
Well-known member
Although I am not qualified to speak on behalf of NOW, I just did some calculations and came up with the following theory:
Using 6 gr per day sells twice as much product as using 3 gr per day.
Good thing I have that new fangled Excell thing.
Beau
Well-known member
If and to the extent Hcy IS a concern, co-administering a multi methyl B-complex (I use Jarrow's "B-Right) addresses the homocysteine issue.
BlackWinging
New member
Oh, I didn't think it's main MoA was the homocysteine reduction, just that that was one of the most studied aspects. The GH/IGF-1 aspect is what I'm most interested in betaine for, as I already get the increased hydration from taurine/creatine.
That's good to hear, I saw that choline increased serum levels of TMG quite high by itself, so I'm glad TMG can spare the choline I take.