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DS Craze Lawsuit and FDA Action

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starkkkk said:
while i may agree with your comments regarding my arrogance, i'll have you know sociopaths like myself are often highly intelligent individuals, though we are utterly without empathy and are incapable of experiencing emotions or what most people perceive as love.

i am inclined to disagree with that assessment on the grounds that i once had a boa constrictor named jinxy that i deeply cared for and felt a profound sense of regret when he suffocated in a tragic accident with my neighbor's dog that wouldn't stop barking.
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Back to the unfolding story you refuse to believe in. Do you belong to the flat earth society by chance?
 
rob112 said:
It's just a way of saying "that is beat." It was in reference to the sides. Basically I was trying to say that sucks you got the side effects. My bad lol
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Nah, it's cool, lol.... Yeah, the sides sucked, but I'm kinda glad I got them as bad as I did. If I hadn't there's no telling how long I would've abused that sh!t.
 
Afi140 said:
Back to the unfolding story you refuse to believe in. Do you belong to the flat earth society by chance?
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Maybe he's the elusive, dastardly counterfeit schemer that's behind this whole thing.... But more likely he's just refusing to accept what's unfolding in front of him.

He probably thought OJ was innocent.
 
I came here to stir the pot!
I can't think of anything to say though...brb
 
While it appears this hasn't been raised yet...

Is it completely out of the question that an individual/company, not saying a competitor, made fake craze and included an amph. analog while using legitimate lot numbers they found on other tubs?

Seems like a good way to make a lot of money rather quickly..

Everyone seems to be throwing out anti-DS conspiracy theories, what about that scenario?

inb4 this is considered "too convenient"
 
Daycrawler said:
While it appears this hasn't been raised yet...

Is it completely out of the question that an individual/company, not saying a competitor, made fake craze and included an amph. analog while using legitimate lot numbers they found on other tubs?

Seems like a good way to make a lot of money rather quickly..

Everyone seems to be throwing out anti-DS conspiracy theories, what about that scenario?

inb4 this is considered "too convenient"
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I brought that scenario up a while back and here's the problem I see: You had so many people all over this country (and now apparently other countries) that had similar amphetamine-like occurances/ symptoms and side-effects after taking this product. Hundreds of people on forums like this have posted about their Craze experiences and most of them tell a very similar story. I don't think it's that far fetched to assume the number of people that never said a word is in the thousands.

I can tell you that a major online retailer of sports supplements was selling the Craze that produced these effects. I ordered several tubs of it. While what is coming out now about the methamphetamine analogue is news, the stories and anecdotal evidence have been around for a very long time now... Well over a year. If large retailers were selling this for an extended period of time (and at least one and probably more were), then it shouldn't be that difficult to trace back to the source. With that said I'm not a detective and I could be wrong. But it doesn't seem like it'd be that tough a nut to crack... Not with the financial resources some of these retailers possess.
 
a new batch was tested in sweden too recently, positive for a amphetamine like substance..
DS claims its a pirate batch,
Gymgrossisten.com , one of the biggest supplement shops/ scandinavia`s bodybuilding.com , says it came right from DS.
News do not mention if the police just tested a box they got from some dude, or from a proper store.
Been alot of counterfeit DS craze in europe due to it was hard to get for a while...

and naturally . newspapers are all over it warning against it being narctoctics...

it`s probably gonna be pulled, but in response customers are hording in case of a future ban..
I`ve tried to versions of craze, one was insane during training, and gave me the worst stim dick and crash ever...
The other box, did nothing (which is one I believe was fake) So I`m a bit sceptical to the legit version, it`s just so much mroe powerful than jack3d(the original)

I`m sticking to hemavol, jack3d micro and Neurocore. Just enough power for a good workout, and it makes me feel good(and even horny) instead of wiped out after training
 
Daycrawler said:
inb4 this is considered "too convenient"
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Hahaha... You're in WAAAYYYY too late for that my man. The second the "counterfeit Craze" notion was tossed out there it was considered too convenient and that was before the discovery of the meth analogue. I happen to agree that it's too convenient. If it's too good to be true (like OG Grape Craze) or sounds too good to be true then it usually is.

I'm assuming you're a fan of Craze? That's cool and all, just don't kid yourself (I don't mean that disrespectfully). It's easy to talk yourself into believing something is pure gold (or just pure in this case) when you love it. But in this case the deck looks to be pretty stacked against DS and Craze.
 
Ceredumbellum said:
PA: Any theories as to why someone would (allegedly) spike their PWO supplement with an analogue of methamphetamine as well as N-Benzyl-2-PEA?

I experienced the drug-like feelings/ dirty-stim. feelings as well as the numbing sensation (which I guess is caused by N-Benzyl-2-PEA).
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theoretically if you put a amphetamine like compound in with a numbing agent it might remind people of cocaine. i dunno
 
Daycrawler said:
While it appears this hasn't been raised yet...

Is it completely out of the question that an individual/company, not saying a competitor, made fake craze and included an amph. analog while using legitimate lot numbers they found on other tubs?

Seems like a good way to make a lot of money rather quickly..

Everyone seems to be throwing out anti-DS conspiracy theories, what about that scenario?

inb4 this is considered "too convenient"
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why the hell would someone make a counterfeit and go to such extremes to make it so good? If you wanna make a quick buck you throw cheap ingredients in a counterfeit. you are trying to jam a square peg into a round hole

whats more, it is my understanding that the counterfeit batches are said to suck. no?
 
woodbear said:
a new batch was tested in sweden too recently, positive for a amphetamine like substance..
DS claims its a pirate batch,
Gymgrossisten.com , one of the biggest supplement shops/ scandinavia`s bodybuilding.com , says it came right from DS.
News do not mention if the police just tested a box they got from some dude, or from a proper store.
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The swedish forensic national laboratory bought the craze from Gymgrossisten.com
 
Angelbolic said:
This comes straight from USADA's high risk list:
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that list appears to be nothing but complete BS. they say 11-oxo contained androstenedione and turinabol. First of all, turinabol or its prohormones never ever was in our facility. second of all, 11-0xo was made by the chromic acid oxidation of hydrocortisone. the hydrocortisone was bought from a chinese supplier of active pharmaceutical intermediates (NOT a company that would also make turinabol). And it is impossible for turinabol to be a side product in the reaction

Either USADA is lying or they are looking at ppm amounts, in which case the presence could be explained by cross contamination happening amongst samples in their lab

USADA is not interested in doing things right, they are interested in propaganda
 
Angelbolic said:
This comes straight from USADA's high risk list:

usada.org/forms.asp?uid=3588 (Control+F "Craze'')


Amphetamine and ethylamphetamine?! Surely DS can't be this stupid, RIGHT?! And why aren't the DEA and FDA all over Cahill right now?!
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Maybe I'll let everyone post html directly to he site. That would be real secure. Quit bitching about the format.
 
Is it weird that I have a very strong desire to try and find some of this now
 
Afi140 said:
Back to the unfolding story you refuse to believe in. Do you belong to the flat earth society by chance?
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i don't believe the earth is flat, but i do believe in a thing called love.

you know what i don't believe in? santa claus.

is this comparable to our current situation? somewhat.

i like hard evidence, not headlines. i've seen tests showing craze contains none of the illicit compounds that sweden, australia or any other countries that frankly all sound really terrible to visit have allegedly found.

i've used it, again and again. yes.

is it my favorite pre-workout or am i obsessed with it to the point i would refuse to believe any notions or theories that were presented to me? no, frankly i use caffeine tabs and bulk cit-mal before most of my workouts because i lift at night and need to get to sleep around 9pm.

i do love craze though. i also think the staff at Driven Sports are stand-up guys.

i think a lot of the parties involved in this dispute have something to gain from the tides shifting one way or another and personally i'll just wait to see what happens when the slinky reaches the bottom of the staircase, unless of course it's one of those generic slinkys that stops midway through and you have to keep nudging it to get it to go to the bottom. what's even the point then?
 
Angelbolic said:
I
However, Craze is the only product on that list said to contain amphetamine and ethylamphetamine, so it's either also cross-contamination or they're a byproduct (maybe in the PPM range) of the synthesis of the b-phenylethylamines found in Craze. Or maybe it's a byproduct of the synthesis of the compound found by the Swedes and Australians... Do you think that's a theoretical possibility?
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Yeah their description of what is in craze makes no sense either. Lets try to forget that usada crap altogether, it only distracts from actual facts out there

Oh, and EL40 is not an ergopharm lot number, our lot numbers are not formatted like that. So their ergopharm 11-oxo results are wrong. Either USADA completely fabricates things or this is some ergopharm counterfeit (unilikely)
 
starkkkk said:
i i've seen tests showing craze contains none of the illicit compounds that sweden, australia or any other countries that frankly all sound really terrible to visit have allegedly found.?
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NO YOU HAVE NOT. The DS screen for amphetamines and analogs did NOT include the current one in question. They never showed that this analog is not in their product, so their using that as evidence of innocence is completely misleadingU simply believe anything DS says and discount anything else. The one with the real bias here is YOU
 
Patrick Arnold said:
NO YOU HAVE NOT. The DS screen for amphetamines and analogs did NOT include the current one in question. They never showed that this analog is not in their product, so their using that as evidence of innocence is completely misleadingU simply believe anything DS says and discount anything else. The one with the real bias here is YOU
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hey, hey, let's not caps lock.

i wouldn't say i believe anything they say, at least, not entirely.

if a DS rep was like, "hey, did you know that if you enter your PIN number backwards at an ATM the police will be dispatched to your location?" then i'd respond with, "that's an urban legend, check out snopes bro"

or if they were to say "you're going to die from consuming DMAA, gov't says so" i'd be all like, "hm, i don't think so tim"

but look, you're a chemistry and i'm not, so i won't try to engage you at that level. i don't have any wish to invoke your wrath at the next arnold and find myself being pummeled by some guy in a huge green eskimo coat out of left field and then i'm pulling my teeth out of the bar with a pair of pliers just because i made some posts on a forum i didn't know existed until yesterday.

also, it takes one to know one and i've never knowingly sold supplements with a controlled substance in them, but if i did i bet i could spot someone else who was doing it.

i did bake pot into brownies once in high school though, then i put them in the faculty lounge. man that was the best social studies class i've ever attended. teacher was like, "why don't we have class outside...? i mean, why don't we do this every day??? but let's stop at the vending machines first, i am hungry as ****"
 
starkkkk said:
halso, it takes one to know one and i've never knowingly sold supplements with a controlled substance in them, but if i did i bet i could spot someone else who was doing it.
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If this were true i would have been indicted and probably in prison right now. Instead absolutely nothing happened. If your purpose here is to just be a funny guy and not to add anything to the conversation of intelligence then expect your lifetime on this board to be short lived
 
Patrick Arnold said:
If this were true i would have been indicted and probably in prison right now. Instead absolutely nothing happened. If your purpose here is to just be a funny guy and not to add anything to the conversation of intelligence then expect your lifetime on this board to be short lived
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i wasn't implying anything about you, i meant that i haven't ever sold controlled substances in a supplement.

but i'm not following your logic because if the owner of DS was selling methamphetamine-laced preworkouts, would he be indicted and locked up in prison?

instead he is probably somewhere drinking some flavor of craze that i've never heard of and hopefully developing even more innovative products rather than pissing and moaning about this whole debacle on a public forum.

btw, did you just quote casino royale? i love that film. everyone says the newest one is the best, but i liked the first.

i thought daniel craig brought a fresh take to the role and despite the comparisons that have been drawn to the bourne series, i continue to support the new turn the franchise has taken.

that guy is freakin' old though, i mean, how long can they keep convincing people that chicks would bang this dude? i mean he could be their grandfather ffs
 
starkkkk said:
instead he is probably somewhere drinking some flavor of craze that i've never heard of and hopefully developing even more innovative products rather than pissing and moaning about this whole debacle on a public forum.

fs
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Run along now.... Isn't it recess time? Go digress to your peers while playing tether ball and come back when you're ready to learn.
 
starkkkk said:
i wasn't implying anything about you, i meant that i haven't ever sold controlled substances in a supplement.but i'm not following your logic because if the owner of DS was selling methamphetamine-laced preworkouts, would he be indicted and locked up in prison?
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jeezus christ you dont even understand the simplest details of this situation. His product does not contain methamphetamine. You should go back to bb.com where everyone else is equally clueless
 
Afi140 said:
Run along now.... Isn't it recess time? Go digress to your peers while playing tether ball and come back when you're ready to learn.
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don't be rude, we had recess in the fourth grade and i am easily reading at a sixth grade level.

next week is going to be my first dance, but i'm nervous to both engage any member of the opposite sex in such close quarters and because i don't how to do the cha-cha-cha.

besides, you only have yourself to blame for dragging me over here. i mean, you guys were talking about me like i was some kind of past-my-prime celebrity that had been spotted walking their dog with sweatpants on, chugging a frappucino and now i'm here to defend myself... no need to get fussy.

Patrick Arnold said:
jeezus christ you dont even understand the simplest details of this situation. His product does not contain methamphetamine. You should go back to bb.com where everyone else is equally clueless
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well i'm glad we cleared that up.

while i'm here, wtf is a hump spray?
 
Looks like this thread has gone to ****.
 
Patrick Arnold said:
why the hell would someone make a counterfeit and go to such extremes to make it so good? If you wanna make a quick buck you throw cheap ingredients in a counterfeit. you are trying to jam a square peg into a round hole

whats more, it is my understanding that the counterfeit batches are said to suck. no?
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Don't quote me on this as I have to verify if I can find the posts, but I recall users saying it had a salty taste.

A poor flavoring job w/ an amph. salt might be the cause of that taste.
 
Daycrawler said:
Don't quote me on this as I have to verify if I can find the posts, but I recall users saying it had a salty taste.

A poor flavoring job w/ an amph. salt might be the cause of that taste.
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amphetamines would taste bitter. but then so would natural phenethylamines
 
Starkkkk has been clueless about every point he tried to make, then follows up with jokes only funny to inbreds. I think its time to get rid of him.
 
MOD EDIT: If you can't productively be a part of the discussion (and your comments so far have not), then don't be involved.
 
starkkkk said:
hello, ronesjones and welcome to anabolic minds!

on behalf of the members here, i'd like to welcome you to our discussion.

we're discussing the consequences of perpetrating crimes while formulating supplements.

examples of such an act would be selling steroids in a transdermal, knowingly selling a c3 or formulating products with illicit substances in them that could potentially yield impressive results, only to later find out they were illegally mislabeled

can i add you to my friends list?
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Youre clearly suffering from Craze withdrawal.
 
ronesjones said:
Youre clearly suffering from Craze withdrawal.
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i haven't had any in weeks. :(

in other news, i don't think the moderators will be able to grant your request by getting rid of clueless posters, as this would cause the value of placing supplement advertisements to plummet quite drastically.
 
zsr said:
Didnt Cahill serve time for selling steroids too?

Everyone acts like Matt and DS are such a great group of guys, not sure why. Off topic but I also have no clue why Pinch would rep for a company like that.
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Have you ever met them?

I had the opportunity to meet nearly all of them at the Arnold. Great group of guys, very nice and friendly.

I had met Pinch previously, but Matt and all the rest of them were very cool people.
 
Daycrawler said:
Have you ever met them?

I had the opportunity to meet nearly all of them at the Arnold. Great group of guys, very nice and friendly.

I had met Pinch previously, but Matt and all the rest of them were very cool people.
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i'm inclined to agree.

thank you for the friendly warning, moderator staff. i will keep my topic in line with the thread title.

patrick,

all debate regarding the controversy of craze and it's formula aside...

what's your favorite flavor?

mine is strawberry swirl
 
starkkkk said:
i'm inclined to agree.

thank you for the friendly warning, moderator staff. i will keep my topic in line with the thread title.

patrick,

all debate regarding the controversy of craze and it's formula aside...

what's your favorite flavor?

mine is strawberry swirl
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I agree, although Tom provides a rather nice reality check when you like to talk about how heavy your last deadlift was and then he drops that he pulled 615 earlier...

Strawberry Swirl > Apple Pie > Pineapple > Berry Lemonade > BB Tea > Grape IMO
 
Daycrawler said:
Have you ever met them?I had the opportunity to meet nearly all of them at the Arnold. Great group of guys, very nice and friendly.I had met Pinch previously, but Matt and all the rest of them were very cool people.
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I have heard they are cool people. I am cool people too.Business is business though, and if i have reason to believe a competitor might be cheating (deliberately or inadvertantly) to gain market advantage I am going to do my best to investigate that. And put an end to it.
 
starkkkk said:
i'm inclined to agree.thank you for the friendly warning, moderator staff. i will keep my topic in line with the thread title.patrick,all debate regarding the controversy of craze and it's formula aside...what's your favorite flavor?mine is strawberry swirl
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thats nice. i suggest you stock up while u can
 
Most of the people in the supplement industry are good guys, and most have skirted the edges of legality more than once too.
 
EasyEJL said:
Most of the people in the supplement industry are good guys, and most have skirted the edges of legality more than once too.
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It is very easy for someone who is good natured and kind hearted to convince themselves that something sneaky or illegal they are doing is not a bad thing, and for the good of all in the end.

The funny thing is that I have known some of the best regarded and friendliest people in this industry that have done some shady and sloppy things business wise. And then you have guys like Ron Kramer who has a bad reputation in the social sense and has often rubbed people the wrong way, but whose commitment to quality control and staying legal is way up there
 
Ether stop the blatant bashing of companies, or thread will be closed and people will be removed. Dont care who you are.
 
This is why I am not jumping on the Craze is tainted bangwagon.. I have used both the OG and the new batch, which I don't see a difference. Is it my favorite pre-workout, yes it is. But its not over the top better than the others I have tried. This feels nothing like the tainted stimulant X, it just gives me some focus, but not overwheming energy. I only use it 4 times a week, with no desire to use it any more. I don't get the major crash after, at least not any more than I get from other pre-workouts. I have not had any adverse side effects, my physicals have shown that I am healthy. I was all over Anabolic Xtreme, when they spiked their product, but the evidence was there and that supplement felt like no other legal supplement I have ever tried. If it is found to be tainted, then I eat my words, but till I see some hard evidence, I will continue to use it and will not bash Driven Sports. I do appreciate others who look out for us consumers, when it comes to shady companies and supplements, so hopefully we find something out here in the near future.
 
Everyone becomes an insider without relying on any evidence...

Give the company a chance and no they can't instantly respond to such a huge Accusation because there is a thread on the internet....
 
If you have some "OG CRAZE", I have a lab all lined up to test it for you. PM me. I have some grape tubs that had been purchased from BB.com when it first came out. After I tried it, I knew nothing on the label could give the effect I felt. I had a few tubs shipped right from BB.com to the lab waiting for the day. Now I see this. I am interested in 3-4 other people that want to send in a sample also. I'll give you the lab report from the test.

It will not be proper chain of custody, but it wil be informative.
 
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