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Thoughts on PNI Paragon?

bigswole30 said:
Not at this time as we do not feel COA's will prove anything.
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yes it will, it will prove that you went out of your way to test the product and that each ingredient is pure/correct.

But since you wont post them I'm assuming you didn't have them tested, since most reputable companies have no problem posting a COA.
 
squatting said:
COAs won't prove anything but writing back to copper about what extract it contains will?

I rather have seen COAs than a paragraph of something that sounds good

In a world of pimps, pastors, presidents and used car salesmen you need to do better than that to gain our trust

Good luck but your starting off in the wrong foot
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I completely respect your opinion/
 
dlucks said:
yes it will, it will prove that you went out of your way to test the product and that each ingredient is pure/correct.

But since you wont post them I'm assuming you didn't have them tested, since most reputable companies have no problem posting a COA.
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Out of curiousity what is your experience in the sports nutrition industry? End user, manufacture, company? Simply put COA's are almost always completely useless.

With that being said let me know if you would like to personally try the product. If we did not stand behind our products 110% we would rely on fancy marketing and not word of mouth advertising. Based on NutraP's first week sales I think many people like what we have to offer.

Thanks everyone who has posted in this thread regardless of negativity. We welcome nay sayers as it makes the industry grow stronger!!!!
 
bigswole30 said:
We would be more then happy to pay for the blood work if you are willing to do so.
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I will get in touch with you when Im ready to run this may be a few weeks have a finaflex log starting probably sunday/monday. So thi will be next on my list
 
mattys4 said:
I will get in touch with you when Im ready to run this may be a few weeks have a finaflex log starting probably sunday/monday. So thi will be next on my list
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Nice your lucky bro
 
bigswole30 said:
Out of curiousity what is your experience in the sports nutrition industry? End user, manufacture, company? Simply put COA's are almost always completely useless.

With that being said let me know if you would like to personally try the product. If we did not stand behind our products 110% we would rely on fancy marketing and not word of mouth advertising. Based on NutraP's first week sales I think many people like what we have to offer.

Thanks everyone who has posted in this thread regardless of negativity. We welcome nay sayers as it makes the industry grow stronger!!!!
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Please tell me why COAs are useless. Is it because you think they can easily be falsified? Genuinely curious.

Also I'm not even trying to be negative, I actually want to try this product. Just scares me when companies dont test their products, which is common with a lot of small companies.
 
dlucks said:
Please tell me why COAs are useless. Is it because you think they can easily be falsified? Genuinely curious.

Also I'm not even trying to be negative, I actually want to try this product. Just scares me when companies dont test their products, which is common with a lot of small companies.
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It is just a personal stance of mine regarding COA's. I have been in this industry since 2002 and have grown to not always trust them. With that being said I am 100% trusting in our supplier.
 
Celorza said:
Lol...this was a sad post indeed. I don't think they are starting off with any wrong foot, and it is kinda sad to see what this community has turned into. All of you think yourself coach scientists and yet know nothing of extracts and standardizations nor do you take the trouble to read or research about them.

This community is not about shunning a new company, it's about learning, teaching and leading...and honestly you should learn to read, teach yourself a lesson with what you are finding and lead a more positive posting regime...all of you...not only just bashing a new company while you beg other companies for free supplements...This company is giving the industry a good try, instead of being so doubtful try to help the fellow american make it in business and before asking for stuff beyond your level of intelligence...try it yourselves and see if it works first hand.
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I don't but there's people on here who does understand and there excitement after seeing such information holds more value than your word. The supplement industry is tainted stop the holy innocent Christian act cause its sad a grown man going the sad puppy face route as oppose to providing what a potential customer wants to see whether u feel its worthless or not

U willing to pay for blood runs an ship out free bottles but won't show paperwork
 
bigswole30 said:
It is just a personal stance of mine regarding COA's. I have been in this industry since 2002 and have grown to not always trust them. With that being said I am 100% trusting in our supplier.
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Alright, PNI is getting unfairly strung up in here.

COAs can be faked, and I highly doubt they want to show their source nor the lab that tested it. So in turn all you get is a document with a bunch of numbers saying that it is what they say it is.

If they're A.) Willing to pay for bloods and B.) Answering questions about their extraction procedures then it's enough for me to trust them and run one, or a few of their products.

Most companies don't even bother to show their face on the forums, and even further most use one or two ingredients in efficacious dosages in their products.

I'm pretty impressed by PNI's formulations, I was expecting to see the typical lack-luster, proven ineffective ingredients that I've grown accustomed too from new companies...

If you're skeptical, remain skeptical till more user feedback comes back on their products or take the plunge and decide for yourself.

However, I will say that I do know it took another reputable companies a significant amount of time to find a reliable NDMA source so I am curious how long it took you to find your source, if it is the same source, and the pricing difference...
 
Most companies don't post or attain a COA for every batch, therefore they could have a legit first batch, but nothing but bunk after.

It's pretty unfair and ridiculous to think that a big name = trustworthy. Gaspari, muscle tech, BSN, etc are all junk but big names.

Every company is new at one time and PNI has been extremely generous with logs and now willing to pay for bloods of some people. If they were terrified of being exposed they probably wouldn't be so willing to expose themselves. A little skepticism is healthy, your levels are absurd.
 
squatting said:
I don't but there's people on here who does understand and there excitement after seeing such information holds more value than your word. The supplement industry is tainted stop the holy innocent Christian act cause its sad a grown man going the sad puppy face route as oppose to providing what a potential customer wants to see whether u feel its worthless or not

U willing to pay for blood runs an ship out free bottles but won't show paperwork
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First off I didn't give my word for anything, I am not paying for anything and I hold no studies. That's PNI , not me. Second COAs are bought and payed for all the time and he even revealed the extracts knowing very well that he can be copied for it.

And like you said, you don't understand this anyway so no reason for me to waste time on you. For your info also, I don't believe in a God at all :) neither do I believe in the good of men, yet I wanna start doing so more only if I saw proof humanity was worth it again ;).
 
Celorza said:
First off I didn't give my word for anything.
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You stated in your first post here " I stand by this company,i know the owner and ceo" ..something along those lines.

Me i would never put my name or word on something especially if i havent had many expieriences with a product or new company.If PNI winds up being bogus ****,well as a rwp iy can make ya word look,not so solid.

You mean well,thats respected. But like stated the supp industry is shady .i been doing this a while.I have friends and a brother doing it even longer and have said most 99.99% of supps are bogus.The ones are solid u stick.

Technically all u need is some caffeiene,food and creatine and your legit.

But best of luck to pni
 
Jay888999 said:
You stated in your first post here " I stand by this company,i know the owner and ceo" ..something along those lines.

Me i would never put my name or word on something especially if i havent had many expieriences with a product or new company.If PNI winds up being bogus ****,well as a rwp iy can make ya word look,not so solid.

You mean well,thats respected. But like stated the supp industry is shady .i been doing this a while.I have friends and a brother doing it even longer and have said most 99.99% of supps are bogus.The ones are solid u stick.

Technically all u need is some caffeiene,food and creatine and your legit.

But best of luck to pni
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Read his post Jason , I do not make mistakes in semantics. If you read the intent of my post is to clarify I am NOT PNI or a PNI rep/owner/sponsor at all. This nincompoop was answering to me as though I has promised bloods and as if I had revealed stuff to cooper. I did not, because I am not a PNI affiliated being. When I posed I stand by them is because I am putting my trust on them, and I have reasons for it, which have been expressed. Thought it would have seemed nicer to say it this way than to just blatantly say that I am not affiliated or making promises on monetary or scientific intents.

Again...I repeat it , I did not promise anything , it was Chad and PNI , not me.
 
JonRubio said:
If you use prodigy this statement will change REAL fast
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This. I beta tested it and it really was the best pre-workout I've used. Better than Craze and Focus XT, which are two reputable companies
 
Celorza said:
Read his post Jason , I do not make mistakes in semantics. If you read the intent of my post is to clarify I am NOT PNI or a PNI rep/owner/sponsor at all. This nincompoop was answering to me as though I has promised bloods and as if I had revealed stuff to cooper. I did not, because I am not a PNI affiliated being. When I posed I stand by them is because I am putting my trust on them, and I have reasons for it, which have been expressed. Thought it would have seemed nicer to say it this way than to just blatantly say that I am not affiliated or making promises on monetary or scientific intents.

Again...I repeat it , I did not promise anything , it was Chad and PNI , not me.
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I stand corrected..but i never meant u were a pni rep,i meant u are a rep in general and said u stand by them.i was just saying if they flop,ur word as a rep can falter....
 
Jay888999 said:
I stand corrected..but i never meant u were a pni rep,i meant u are a rep in general and said u stand by them.i was just saying if they flop,ur word as a rep can falter....
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That's very faulty logic. Because someone backs a company that initially provides good services but then flops/falls apart has no bearing on one's word. You cannot be responsible for that and therefore cannot have your word devalued.

If he was a rep for them then there are mixed intentions
 
jamesm11 said:
That's very faulty logic. Because someone backs a company that initially provides good services but then flops/falls apart has no bearing on one's word. You cannot be responsible for that and therefore cannot have your word devalued.

If he was a rep for them then there are mixed intentions
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No but telling ppl " i stand behind this company and they put out solid **** as i have spoken to the ceo" ..well ur putting ur word on something because u like someone,if it falters that can absolutley make ppl question somebody.I dnt put my name or rep in anything unless im 100% sold on it
 
Interesting read. Products look solid, goodluck PNI
 
mr.cooper69 said:
And just how would you gauge the effectiveness of a testosterone booster sample?
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Because 1 cap is 1 PR right? Lol...

Honestly it's cheap as hell on NP for this week I think, why not just grab it and try it out :D?
 
Has anyone had a better experience from NMDA as opposed to DAA (I swear by SNS DAA caps alongside Erase)
 
ProOne said:
Good point Coop....I was mistakenly thinking this was there pre workout until I just looked at it
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Ahh makes sense.

NMDA is likely inferior for elevating testosterone since it doesn't affect StaR in the testes, but the 30mg dose will minimize GI issues for those who are prone.
 
mr.cooper69 said:
Ahh makes sense.

NMDA is likely inferior for elevating testosterone since it doesn't affect StaR in the testes, but the 30mg dose will minimize GI issues for those who are prone.
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Hey Coop,

I always enjoy your insight. I would love to see your source/reference on this statement.

Thanks,

Chad
 
As with anything new there is a growth/trust period they have to go thru. You guys say you only trust other companies that "have been around and earned your trust". Well hello, they had to earn that with putting out products that were bought and run initially. Yes there is hype and this goes hand in hand with anything being sold. PNI will have to earn my trust as well but from some of the reviews I've seen so far they are getting things done. If they are legit then they will be around and establish themselves as one of those "companies you trust". Time will tell.
 
AZMIDLYF said:
As with anything new there is a growth/trust period they have to go thru. You guys say you only trust other companies that "have been around and earned your trust". Well hello, they had to earn that with putting out products that were bought and run initially. Yes there is hype and this goes hand in hand with anything being sold. PNI will have to earn my trust as well but from some of the reviews I've seen so far they are getting things done. If they are legit then they will be around and establish themselves as one of those "companies you trust". Time will tell.
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well of course.
 
bigswole30 said:
In regards to the above. Sorry for the delayed reply addressing these points.

For Euonymus, we used an aqueous bark extract, at 20:1 concentration. (High in polysacharrides and triterpene/steroidal glycosides.) This is exactly consistent with the extract used in the only study which examined the effects of Euonymus Alatus on aromatase. For Urtica, we used a full-spectrum aqueous root extract. We can't claim 98% standardization to 3,4-divanillyltetrahydrofuran - but, as we've all learned, most of those companies who have claimed to have a 98% extract were sorely mistaken. The extract we use in Paragon comes from a reputable source, seems to be highly effective, and is dosed properly.


As far as Vitamin K is concerned, we believe that it should have an effect, as long as the dose is high enough. The mechanisms of action are intriguing, particularly its effects on P450scc expression, and this may synergize well with the rest of the formula. It seems to work dramatically well in animal experiments, and the doses we use have been shown to be safe in humans. There's a big chance that it'll do a lot of good; there's a small chance that it won't help at all; but there's no chance that taking it could ever hurt.
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I'm taking in march as a stand alone with my TRT. my levels r stable on TRT n I can gauge if / what a product does through my bloods and obviously mirror, other effects. I'll bs sure to post as much info as I can.
 
I'm assuming this is a powerful enough AI to include it in an 8 weeks on / 4 off scheme.. Example:

Week 1-4: paragon
Week 5-8: triazole
Off
 
chedapalooza said:
I'm assuming this is a powerful enough AI to include it in an 8 weeks on / 4 off scheme.. Example:

Week 1-4: paragon
Week 5-8: triazole
Off
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I'll jump in on this.. Yes you are correct. Interested on how this will work for you.
 
T-Bone said:
Why not just leave the gap?
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Because I'm running ArA with ABE. ArA dosed preworkout only with 4 workouts a week totals to 12.5 weeks. This leaves me running ArA solo for 4.5 weeks after the ABE run. I'd like to maximize my time on ArA by taking something like a natty test booster (like ABE) for last 4 weeks, possibly extending it to 8. I'm also looking at Mass FX Black and Prime.
 
The Engineer said:
Because I'm running ArA with ABE. ArA dosed preworkout only with 4 workouts a week totals to 12.5 weeks. This leaves me running ArA solo for 4.5 weeks after the ABE run. I'd like to maximize my time on ArA by taking something like a natty test booster (like ABE) for last 4 weeks, possibly extending it to 8. I'm also looking at Mass FX Black and Prime.
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I would run the ABE than.
 
The Engineer said:
Because I'm running ArA with ABE. ArA dosed preworkout only with 4 workouts a week totals to 12.5 weeks. This leaves me running ArA solo for 4.5 weeks after the ABE run. I'd like to maximize my time on ArA by taking something like a natty test booster (like ABE) for last 4 weeks, possibly extending it to 8. I'm also looking at Mass FX Black and Prime.
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Stick with the ABE.
 
dlucks said:
Hmmm well hopefully the owner can post some sort testing results for the ingredients. Then I will probably buy a couple bottles
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I ran it this summer with a couple of PNI's other products and really liked it I wish I had done a 2month stack vs just the one month PNI puts out good quality stuff.
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I don't want to surpass the 8 week max requirement for ABE, and I'm already in my 3rd of week of it. That's why I was thinking of running Paragon once it's finished. Any other suggestions?
 
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